I've read the guides. I've read build upon build. Advice sometimes contradictory in nature explaining things about stealth that are no longer relevant or maybe they are and I'm just confused...
Forget that. I wanna make a halfling rogue. Not a ninja. A rogue.
How do I do that and have fun? How do I do that and not feel disappointed at every encounter?
What is fun about rogues? What do you find fun about rogues?
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-Setting and disarming traps is fun.
-Having underworld connections and resources "people you know on the inside" etc. is fun. It makes you the guy "with connections".
-Sneak attack damage with bleed
"Let me scout ahead in the dark and see what I can find out"
"I'll be back in a few hours. Let me ask around town."
-being the guy with the tanglefoot bags, the smokesticks, the caltrops and the bags of marbles
-being the guy who can disarm that magical trap
-being the guy to whom the GM gives that partial map because "I know a guy who's been down here before."
-poisons. Lovely poisons.
-secrets
"My favorite weapon? The dagger of course; The one you never see because it's in your back."
"Honor? Glory? I'm in this to WIN. If that means 'honor' and 'glory', then okay, but I'd rather it means 'money'."
"Fine. You all get the girl out, I'm going back for those gems."
Being a rogue is a role, not a class. It just so happens that the Rogue class comes with all the stuff you need to make it happen.
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I have a lot of hate for the rogue as a class, because as Owly states, it's more of a role. I happen to disagree that the rogue class comes with all the required features to make a rogue. It's unfortunate, but several classes do it better:
1) Several bard archetypes can pull off the trapfinder, skill monkey, and also provide spells and oftentimes better attack bonuses.
2) Rangers get almost as many skills, similar class features, and end up being far more effective in combat due to favoured enemy and full BAB.
3) Even wizards tend to be better rogues, depending on what you are looking for. An abjurer or diviner are both going to be able to bypass or remove traps, and the magic they're bringing is almost always better than a handful of d6s.
That said, I believe there are some good rogues out there. Unfortunately, most of the rogue builds that I happen to like involve multiclassing with something that has full BAB. A barbarian or fighter with a few rogue levels can oftentimes act exactly like a rogue is expected to while bringing more combat ability to the table.
However, you want a halfling rogue, so let's do that! You can have fun making and playing a rogue, but make sure you are building with the knowledge that you will not be a damage king. You will have to justify your position in a party despite dealing with class features that are sometimes just not as good as what others get. You will have to make sure that you're using the few advantages a rogue gets — lots of skills, and access to almost as many feats as a fighter — to make this suboptimal class work.
It seems like the rogue is a walking oxymoron; claiming to be independent when actually more dependent on teamwork than any other class.
"I'm going to sneak up ahead." (monster sees them for whatever reason) "Ah! I'm squishy!"
"I'm awesome, I took him out!" (Flanking buddy standing aside, tapping his foot.)
(Spell makes someone blind.) "Oh yeah, looky what I did." (Wizard resists urge to turn you into a toad. Fails will save.)
Seems like the most effective roleplay method would be to acknowledge the rest of the party, be grateful, perhaps even sniveling, in awe of their amazing class features while in combat. You could clean up out of combat with a pool of skills. (Except the bard's Knowledge: Everything is actually the most rolled skill in the game. My Bard has rolled more d20's in game than anyone at the table.)
I'm still not entirely sure on the mechanics of surprise rounds and stealth. It all seems so arbitrary and hand-wavy and unpredictable as to be unworthy of much investment. Soooooo all or nothing. Less than nothing; all or huge negative consequences. Monks or ninja's look like their better at this with a ki pool to draw from to speed up the heck outta there when the soft-serve hits the pinwheel.
So that leaves flanking and feinting. Both of which leave your squishy self open to attack. Oy. Especially so at low levels.
Perhaps this is a character best used for my eventual GM credits.
I highly disagree with Stealth no longer being relevant. It's possibly one of the best skills out there, especially at higher levels, where everything has see invisibility or true seeing anyway.
Rogues are hard to play and rather squishy but still immensely fun to play. I do agree with the posters above that they're contradictory: they're both a highly teamwork dependent class, since they will lose 1v1 in most cases and need allies for SAing, but also a solo class, since allies screw up their stealth. The problem is that they can only take out much weaker foes solo, since they need to kill them in one shot with SA.
I'm actually planning to play a reach-based rogue with the Gang Up feat in a large enough party. I think it could be pretty powerful and still quite survivable with a whip or even a pair of whips.
Btw, if your GM allows you to take the 3.5 Telling Blow feat (sneak attack also gets multiplied on critical hits), rogues become quite monstrous ;)
In one high-level game I played a dual kukri-wielding rogue with this feat that I nicknamed 'Buzzsaw'. He was squishy (partially due to bad luck with acquiring magical gear) but when he got to an enemy, it died messily every time.
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I've read the guides. I've read build upon build. Advice sometimes contradictory in nature explaining things about stealth that are no longer relevant or maybe they are and I'm just confused...
Forget that. I wanna make a halfling rogue. Not a ninja. A rogue.
How do I do that and have fun? How do I do that and not feel disappointed at every encounter?
.
Really?
Play with a GM who puts as much emphasis on skills as he does on combat. There are a ton of things Rogues can do besides detect traps and sneak attack.
This would be for PFS if at all. So I have no guarantee on the party's mixture, the module may or may not call for my skill (although I'd probably have at least 10/level).
Night before last I was at a table with a Rogue and the poor guy never really got his flank on, and was very disappointed to learn that his stealth didn't work the way he had anticipated. (Tiefling with Darkness SLA vs Monster with Darkvision.) Made me apprehensive about stealth.
I did learn from this: Talk with the party, plan ahead, because you are at the mercy of their willingness to play with you. If you go stealthing ahead without asking the party, we might not be ready to help you if you get in a tight spot. Also, talking about flanking opportunities is a good idea. I would have loved to flank with the rogue using my squishy bard if I had the foreknowledge that was a plan, but I didn't even have a weapon suitable to set up the flank. Def. will have a dagger or something next time.
@Deftfoot: Very nice character page! Those stats are pretty good looking, specially those HPs. (The fighter level helps, although I'm hoping to go straight up rogue.)
I was lookin' at:
Halfling
Str 10, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 14
1. Combat Expertise (Potentially use Weapon Finesse instead until 2nd level)
2. Finnese Rogue
3. Improved Feint
4. Bleeding Attack
5. Imp Dirty Trick? (+4 doesn't seem like enough to beat ANY CMD though, which is such a darn shame, unless I feint and then Dirty Trick, if that even works.)
Skills to max out: Acro, Bluff, Diplo, Disable, Escape, Kn: Local, Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth, UMD
This would be a straight-up unmodified rogue, because all of the archetypes save Scout or Mr. Knives seem soooooo rediculoursly situminational, even though it's probably the weakest "archetype."
I was also looking at the Filcher archetype, although that doesn't seem to have as much benefit in PFS as it would a home game where you get to keep your ill gotten gains. In which case the Well Prepared halfling feat would be a fun choice whose only real mechanical benefit would be avoiding encumbrance and ease of book-keeping.
"Oh hey, I got some firewood right here." *Thunk* "Those guides sure were thoughtful to permanently lend me their backpack."
Does Sleight of Hand have material benefit for PFS or is it just for getting things in home games?
I don't like Expertise -> Improved Feint because it's less economical with actions when you start getting more than one attack, because it uses a move action.
Two Weapon Fighting and Two Weapon Feint will serve you better in the long run. If attack bonus doesn't become a problem, then Piranha Strike may be worth looking at for extra damage.
As for race, there is a halfing variant in the ARG that gives you a full 30 move speed, and one that gives you an extra +1 on flanking (so +3 instead of +2) which including your +1 from being small can actually make a big difference, especially when compared to a human rogue of similar build.
In that case, I could start with Improved Feint at 3rd, then us Ultimate Campaign to retrain it to Two-Weapon Fighting at 5th and take TWFeint.
I don't really see the difference though. Why not just use that move action, and get a full BAB attack, and then get Greater Feint so your feinting lasts through a full attack next round.
Improved Feint-- Move: Roll Bluff, Standard: Attack at full attack bonus
TWFeint-- Full round action; roll bluff, attack off hand at -2 penalty. Requires more feats.
It would only get good around the same time you could take Greater Feint, which lets things linger until your next step. It doesn't require any different number of feat investments and can't be used to feint before any AOO's may be provoked.
Or am I missing something material? That seems to be the theme for today.
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This would be a straight-up unmodified rogue, because all of the archetypes save Scout or Mr. Knives seem soooooo rediculoursly situminational, even though it's probably the weakest "archetype."
Even Auris seems like he'd be better without the Knife Master archetype. It's beautiful rolling those d8s, but that's really all I am getting out of the archetype. If it didn't cost so much I would probably retrain him out of it.
He's pretty situational, doubly so since I focused on skills rather than combat ability. He didn't really do much damage until he got Agile on his kukri, and even still there is a big difference between him attacking without Sneak Attack and with it. Be ready for that variance and hope you can find good partners to flank the enemies you can SA.
Boots of Striding and Springing are also a must when you can afford them.
Dual wielding for backstabs is a trap IME. People keep moving around the map, and killing off the thing you're setting up for, keeping that from happening
In that case, I could start with Improved Feint at 3rd, then us Ultimate Campaign to retrain it to Two-Weapon Fighting at 5th and take TWFeint.
I don't really see the difference though. Why not just use that move action, and get a full BAB attack, and then get Greater Feint so your feinting lasts through a full attack next round.
Improved Feint-- Move: Roll Bluff, Standard: Attack at full attack bonus
TWFeint-- Full round action; roll bluff, attack off hand at -2 penalty. Requires more feats.
It would only get good around the same time you could take Greater Feint, which lets things linger until your next step. It doesn't require any different number of feat investments and can't be used to feint before any AOO's may be provoked.
Or am I missing something material? That seems to be the theme for today.
When your BAB gets to a point where you can actually make more than one attack in a round (or more likely if you have Haste going) you will actually be able to make those extra attacks where as with improved feint you will only ever be able to make the one attack.
Greater Feint is a trap, it does you no good because feinting is still a move action which means you still only get a standard and thus only one attack, even if they would be denied their DEX the whole round, it doesn't matter because you still only get the one attack per round.
Greater Feint: ??? Wow, yup. Completely read that as until the "END" of your next round. Apparently my brain only wants to read things as though they make sense. That would make it only usable during an AOO, which is also highly situational as Rogues have few ways to provoke 'em.
So TWFeint has value, at least the improved version does.
Dual wielding for backstabs is a trap IME. People keep moving around the map, and killing off the thing you're setting up for, keeping that from happening
Seems to me Sneak Attack in general is a trap. It's something you take when you get it, but trying for it every single time is gonna leave you frustrated. If TWF and Feint and all the other things are traps, well, all signs point to Sneak Attack.
If the only real combat feat I take is Weapon Finesse, how much can I give my combat ability?
Bleeding Attack: One sneak attack is all I need to make my mark. At that point, I can just run away and let 'em bleed out.
Assault Leader: So when I finally get to that rare flank and miss my mark, instead of throwing up my hand, the guy who actually can hit and deal lots of damage hits and deals lots of damage. The one/day is probably fine for PFS if Flanks are hard enough to set up as is.
Stand Up: This allows you to do the worm across the battlefield. Highly advantageous when combined with Perform (Dance).
Does trap making do anything in PFS? I suppose only the core-book traps are allowed if at all.
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How do oyu play a rogue and have fun? Roleplay. Seriously, they may not be the best for combat or skills as some of tghe others have pointed out, but its a heck of a lot of fun to be the lying, stealing, smooth talking, pickpocketing guy that everyone loves to hate.
"I want to steal his pants."
"Why do you want his pants?"
"I don't I just want to see if I can steal them."
You've got to play it up so that even when you do poorly in combat you can still make the gameplay fun for everyone. Combat is not the whole of the game.
Greater Feint: ??? Wow, yup. Completely read that as until the "END" of your next round. Apparently my brain only wants to read things as though they make sense. That would make it only usable during an AOO, which is also highly situational as Rogues have few ways to provoke 'em.
So TWFeint has value, at least the improved version does.
Dual wielding for backstabs is a trap IME. People keep moving around the map, and killing off the thing you're setting up for, keeping that from happeningSeems to me Sneak Attack in general is a trap. It's something you take when you get it, but trying for it every single time is gonna leave you frustrated. If TWF and Feint and all the other things are traps, well, all signs point to Sneak Attack.
If the only real combat feat I take is Weapon Finesse, how much can I give my combat ability?
Bleeding Attack: One sneak attack is all I need to make my mark. At that point, I can just run away and let 'em bleed out.
Assault Leader: So when I finally get to that rare flank and miss my mark, instead of throwing up my hand, the guy who actually can hit and deal lots of damage hits and deals lots of damage. The one/day is probably fine for PFS if Flanks are hard enough to set up as is.
Stand Up: This allows you to do the worm across the battlefield. Highly advantageous when combined with Perform (Dance).
Does trap making do anything in PFS? I suppose only the core-book traps are allowed if at all.
And you now understand why people hate rogues.
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Its definetly harder to do in PFS, at least from the PFS I've seen since the goal when you sit down is to get to the end and not to take off on tangents. Also, stealing in PFS is kind of pointless as you can't do it to your party members because of the no PVP rule and anything you actually do steal does nothing for you because you get the same amount of gold at the end regardless.
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The issue with Combat Manoeuvres for a Dexterity build is that you also require Agile Manoeuvres if you're using a non-weapon Combat Manoeuvre. Trip can be done with Weapon Finesse, but for Dirty Trick you need Agile Manoeuvres.
One feat that a melee-based halfling is sure to enjoy is Risky Striker, from the Advanced Race Guide. Being of small size means that towards mid-levels, you will be encountering a lot of things that are two sizes bigger than you.
Master_marshmallow already suggested Fleet of Foot, which is invaluable for a melee-based halfling. I would also offer up Adaptable Luck, which tends to offer more options than the basic Halfling Luck. There are also feats to improve it, and one incredibly powerful trait from Ultimate Campaign (Fortune's Favoured) which makes it even better.
Sleight of Hand is rarely used in PFS, but I've seen it for some faction missions (now far rarer), or as an alternative access point (they won't give you the papers you need, but luckily you've already stolen them and made a copy!). Sleight of Hand is also a possible Day Job avenue, if you pick up the vanity from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide.
There is one more choice for you to make regarding combat. Are you going to be making hit-and-run attacks, or do you plan to stick it out in combat? If the former, Spring Attack makes for a surprisingly versatile option; if the latter, Two-Weapon Fighting is your best hope if you are Dexterity-based. Two-Weapon Fighting does open up Two-Weapon Feint, but that is incredibly feat heavy, even for a rogue.
A few build ideas:
Alternate Racial Traits [ARG]: Adaptable Luck (replaces Halfling Luck), Fleet of Foot (replaces Sure-Footed)
Traits: Fortune's Favoured [UCa], River Rat [APG]
1 Dodge
2 Finesse Rogue (Weapon Finesse)
3 Mobility
4 Bleeding Attack
5 Risky Striker [ARG]
6 Combat Trick (Spring Attack)
7 Fortunate One [ARG]
8 Trap Spotter
9 Lunge
10 Improved Evasion
11 Adaptive Fortune [ARG]
12 Crippling Strike
Very standard, and relying quite a bit on a flank partner. It has the advantage of being very easy to get a single sneak attack off per round, provided that there is another melee character in the group. Downsides include the massive power drop without other melee support, and the fact that even with a flank, you're likely not doing a great amount of damage. Upsides include very rarely sticking around next to an enemy due to Spring Attack. You will be able to avoid full attacks very well, and hopefully the damage from Bleeding Attack wears down your foes.
Alternate Racial Traits [ARG]: Fleet of Foot (replaces Sure-Footed)
Traits: Fashionable (Taldor Faction), Reactionary
1 Combat Expertise
2 Finesse Rogue (Weapon Finesse)
3 Improved Feint
4 Bleeding Attack
5 Dodge
6 Weapon Training (Weapon Focus: Rapier)
7 Disengaging Feint [UCo]
8 Combat Trick (Greater Feint)
9 Mobility
10 Feat (Disengaging Flourish [UCo]
11 Disengaging Shot [Uco]
12 Improved Evasion or Skill Mastery (Bluff, UMD, and three others)
This uses a different method than the first build to achieve much the same result. Feinting is more reliable than flanking, but you're still only going to be getting a single sneak attack off. Greater Feint is a great buff to give your allies, and you will eventually have much the same defence as the Spring Attack build: no one will be able to full attack you if you make use of Disengaging Shot effectively.
Alternate Racial Traits [ARG]: Adaptable Luck (replaces Halfling Luck), Fleet of Foot (replaces Sure-Footed)
Traits: Fortune's Favoured, River Rat
1 Agile Manoeuvres
2 Finesse Rogue (Weapon Finesse)
3 Combat Expertise
4 Trap Spotter
5 Improved Dirty Trick [APG]
6 Weapon Training (Weapon Focus: Dagger)
7 Two-Weapon Fighting
8 Combat Trick (Quick Dirty Trick [UCo])
9 Greater Dirty Trick
10 Crippling Strike
11 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
12 Improved Evasion
This is a much slower build, but it probably has the highest damage potential of the three. Dirty Trick requires Agile Manoeuvres to function properly for these stats, and you will be fighting an uphill battle due to your net -1 to CMB from size. However, if you can blind someone at high levels with Quick Dirty Trick, the rest of your attacks will be coming in with sneak attack attached. At first level, make use of a longspear to trip or disarm opponents, as your attack bonus will be awful.
This build has a partner in the feint build:
Alternate Racial Traits [ARG]: Adaptable Luck (replaces Halfling Luck), Fleet of Foot (replaces Sure-Footed)
Traits: Fashionable (Taldor Faction), Fortune's Favoured [ARG]
1 Combat Expertise
2 Finesse Rogue (Weapon Finesse)
3 Improved Feint
4 Combat Trick (Two-Weapon Fighting)
5 Two-Weapon Feint [UCo]
6 Weapon Training (Weapon Focus: Dagger or Short Sword)
7 Risky Striker [ARG]
8 Offensive Defence [APG]
9 Greater Feint
10 Crippling Strike
11 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
12 Improved Evasion
This one has some potential, but you're going to have trouble with unfeintable enemies; hopefully they're big enough to make use of Risky Striker instead? One of the major downsides of this build is how vulnerable you are to a full attack. If you don't take out your enemy with a full attack, be very wary of retribution; the Offensive Defence talent helps a bit, but don't rely on it.
Y'know, in terms of role-play value, I think I like Feinting the best. "You're boots are untied." "Look behind you!" "Excuse me, do you have the time?"
2nd best would be Dirty Trick, but that's a tricky thing to do with a halfling and as you say not great until later level. That would definitely be something I could pour GM credits into.
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A rogue that doesn't rely on allies, eh?
Alternate Racial Traits [ARG]: Fleet of Foot (replaces Sure-Footed), Low Blow (replaces Keen Senses), Underfoot (replaces Halfling Luck)
Traits: Axe to Grind [UCa], Pragmatic Activator [UCa]
1 Dodge
2 Finesse Rogue [Weapon Finesse]
3 Mobility
4 Minor Magic [prestidigiation]
5 Arcane Strike
6 Combat Trick [Spring Attack]
7 Risky Striker [ARG]
8 Major Magic [liberating command [UCo]
9 Weapon Focus (rapier)
10 Familiar [UCo]
11 Improved Familiar
12 Feat [Improved Critical (rapier)]
We all know that a rogue can do decent damage when flanking — maybe not fighter or barbarian level, but good enough to contribute. That's why this build strives to maximize damage while not flanking. It uses the same Spring Attack chassis as the Mobile Halfling, but grabs the Magic rogue talents so that it qualifies for Arcane Strike, and also picks up Risky Striker. Getting the Improved Familiar gives this rogue a dedicated partner who can support him in a variety of other ways (one example: grease an enemy's square so that the halfling can ready an action to attack when the enemy moves through it, triggering sneak attack). The Axe to Grind trait gives him +1 to his damage when he's the only one threatening an opponent, because that will happen a LOT in PFS. Alternate Racial Traits are picked towards attacking things bigger than you (that will also happen a lot in PFS).
Attacking a large or larger opponent: +2 agile rapier +21/+16 (1d4+19/15-20)
Extra insanity: drink a potion of reduce person to increase your attack and AC* by 2 and allow Risky Striker to work even on medium creatures!
*AC boost only applies if you're wearing armour with a very high Max Dex. I recommend eventually trading that mithral chain shirt for a haramaki, or even mage armour.
If the familiar isn't for you, you can get rid of Major Magic onwards to get Bleeding Attack, Trap Spotter, and Improved Evasion; alternatively, keep Major Magic to grab Dispelling Attack. This build definitely does not need to be carried.
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While I've seen plenty of murderhobos, I will disagree with you on the restrictions. PFS has many restrictions, to be sure, but it tends to allow far more than most home games I have heard of.
The things that are removed are typically either not conducive to Organized Play (crafting, Leadership), overpowered or underpriced (master summoner, bracers of falcon's aim), too prone to abuse (pack lord druid, synthesist), or just too evil for a PG-13 game (undead lord cleric, vivisectionist).
I would remove or severely restrict most of the above in my own home games.
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Rogues can be run to play, and they are not useless. The point being made when people criticize them, is that other classes do what you want them to do better than the rogue does.
Instead of thinking, "play a rogue", decide how you want to be effective in the game, and choose the class that helps you do it the best.
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Rogues can be run to play, and they are not useless. The point being made when people criticize them, is that other classes do what you want them to do better than the rogue does.
Instead of thinking, "play a rogue", decide how you want to be effective in the game, and choose the class that helps you do it the best.
+a million.
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How many bards have you seen do that?I have a lot of hate for the rogue as a class, because as Owly states, it's more of a role. I happen to disagree that the rogue class comes with all the required features to make a rogue. It's unfortunate, but several classes do it better:
1) Several bard archetypes can pull off the trapfinder, skill monkey, and also provide spells and oftentimes better attack bonuses.
2) Rangers get almost as many skills, similar class features, and end up being far more effective in combat due to favoured enemy and full BAB.Most rangers I've seen have the charisma of a toilet-brush. No Use Magic Device + Crayola box full of wands for them....
3) Even wizards tend to be better rogues, depending on what you are looking for. An abjurer or diviner are both going to be able to bypass or remove traps, and the magic they're bringing is almost always better than a handful of d6s.You can't save versus sneak for half; and the rogue doesn't have to beat SR to get his dice.
However, you want a halfling rogue, so let's do that! You can have fun making and playing a rogue, but make sure you are building with the knowledge that you will not be a damage king. You will have to justify your position in a party despite dealing with class features that are sometimes just not as good as what others get. You will have to make sure that you're using the few advantages a rogue gets — lots of skills, and access to almost as many feats as a fighter — to make this suboptimal class work.
Halfling rogues are the very best rogues (well, aside from goblin rogues).
-- If you see the halfling; he's probably not a rogue.
]How many bards have you seen do that
Most rangers I've seen have the charisma of a toilet-brush. No Use Magic Device + Crayola box full of wands for them....
-- If you see the halfling; he's probably not a rogue.
Stealth is extremely situation specific. Halfling don't have Darkvision and monsters tend to, so hiding in the dark doesn't work. In visibility works regardless of race. Stealth tends to be extremely dangerous though and is defeated by ingenious devices like doors.
As for the wands and Trapfinding, a Seeker Oracle would work better. I have one they are fun
I have seen a few selfish Trapfinding Bards. They do Rogue stuff very well.
Most ranger have poor Cha, but so do most rogues I've seen. I don't understand the point.
Honestly most rogues I see in Pfs don't have Trapfinding. I have seen this create some problems before honestly.
Stealth isn't always an opposed check. Very often its "you're spotted" because you don't have cover or concealment because you're standing in the dark, and humans and halflings are the only things on the entire face of golarion that can't see in the dark.
This gets doubly bad because if something is in low light you can't sneak attack it, so to be effective you have to be in low light but your opponents needs to be inexplicably stand in normal or better lighting.
Nicos, I think he was making a joke about stealthy halfling rogues.
This is the problem with the Optimizer/Theorycrafters here. They are so very right on small details but so very VERY wrong on the Big stuff. The Rogue is now, and has been- one of the most fun classes to play. It can definitely add to any party.
Yes, there are archetypes that may do some of the rogues roles better. So?
A few hints tho. Don’t dump any stat, nor max any out.
Max out Perc, even taking traits or even a feat. Do take at least one ‘survival” talent, one like Resiliency. Hit points are your friend, so is AC. Toughness, the extra HP you get from your class level, etc. Dodge.
Bleeding attack helps if you don’t do much direct damage.
Ask your DM how he does traps. Will there be lots of them? Will he allow you to move carefully and Spot them, or must you take the Trap Spotter talent?
One thing no one has mentioned that I always do with my rogues is boost their initiative. Improved initiative plus a trait can give you +6. Your dexterity is also probably high so that's probably another +2-3. If your rogue can attack flat footed opponents who haven't gone yet in the opening of a combat, that's a possible sneak attack right out of the gate. If you have a high acrobatics score, you get bonus to your AC when fighting defensively. Acrobatics combined with Combat manuevers allows you to move into flanks easier and safely.
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Are we really going line by line now? Ugh.
How many bards have you seen do that?I have a lot of hate for the rogue as a class, because as Owly states, it's more of a role. I happen to disagree that the rogue class comes with all the required features to make a rogue. It's unfortunate, but several classes do it better:
1) Several bard archetypes can pull off the trapfinder, skill monkey, and also provide spells and oftentimes better attack bonuses.
Quite a few! First off, remember that Trapfinding only makes the rogue the king of magical traps. So anyone with a good Perception score and Disable Device trained can do the rest.
Secondly, the archaeologist and the sandman archetypes both gain Trapfinding as a rogue, while still providing spells and a perfectly fine skill list.
If an archaeologist provides heroism and haste while still being a trap-monkey, he has officially replaced the rogue. With the archaeologist's luck class feature, he also outdamages the rogue. Yup.
2) Rangers get almost as many skills, similar class features, and end up being far more effective in combat due to favoured enemy and full BAB.Most rangers I've seen have the charisma of a toilet-brush. No Use Magic Device + Crayola box full of wands for them....
Well first off, the ranger doesn't depend nearly so much on UMD due to actually having a caster level. Secondly since when does a rogue have a high Charisma? They have just as much need for it as a ranger for their class features.
However, even if the rogue invests in Charisma (which is a mistake more often than not), the ranger can just pick up one of those handy feats that allow him to use his Intelligence modifier instead of Charisma. Not really a setback though, because like I said before: they're already spellcasters.
3) Even wizards tend to be better rogues, depending on what you are looking for. An abjurer or diviner are both going to be able to bypass or remove traps, and the magic they're bringing is almost always better than a handful of d6s.You can't save versus sneak for half; and the rogue doesn't have to beat SR to get his dice.
You can't possibly be telling me that spells are less reliable than getting of sneak attack. In any case, I don't think there's a saving throw against invisibility, and some of the best spells have no save or spell resistance (summon monster comes to mind). Keep in mind the wizard can do this on TOP of having a sky-high Perception score with a combination of Alertness, probably being an elf, and having the feats to spare to pick up Skill Focus and Perception as a class skill.
Lastly, if you REALLY must have Trapfinding, a rogue 1/wizard x is still a better rogue than a rogue. Come to think of it, go ranger or sandman bard 1/wizard x
However, you want a halfling rogue, so let's do that! You can have fun making and playing a rogue, but make sure you are building with the knowledge that you will not be a damage king. You will have to justify your position in a party despite dealing with class features that are sometimes just not as good as what others get. You will have to make sure that you're using the few advantages a rogue gets — lots of skills, and access to almost as many feats as a fighter — to make this suboptimal class work.Halfling rogues are the very best rogues (well, aside from goblin rogues).
-- If you see the halfling; he's probably not a rogue.
I see. Are you considering that the OP's post is for a party setting? Specifically, a Pathfinder Society Organized Play setting? If you don't see the halfling, then he's probably not going to get much time to play in the 4-5 hour block.
I see. Are you considering that the OP's post is for a party setting? Specifically, a Pathfinder Society Organized Play setting? If you don't see the halfling, then he's probably not going to get much time to play in the 4-5 hour block.Halfling rogues are the very best rogues (well, aside from goblin rogues).
-- If you see the halfling; he's probably not a rogue.
I think you missed the italics. If the rogue is any good, you won't see him.
Although, if he is too good, the party might not see him either. :-)
/cevah
#1 way to have fun with rogues? Play in a game whose GM's favorite character class is rogue.
How do I do that and have fun? How do I do that and not feel disappointed at every encounter?
Hi there!
Something which might help you... I'm contributing to another thread on this exact same topic, and I have a feeling that by the time my post series is done, you'll have a few tips.
-Matt
Ways to have fun with rogues...
an improvised weapon
as a slinky
to disarm traps... by throwing the rogue on them
slather them in honey and feed them to the monster
slather them in sovereign glue and then feed them to the monster
catapult ammunition
backup food supply for the druids pet
rogue on a rope ! a thousand and one uses
The most important thing for the rogue is playing him in the right campaign.
That generally means high intrigue urban, or heavily trapped dungeons. A group that doesn't mind waiting while you do your solo scouting or cloak and dagger stuff with the DM.
If the campaign won't support this, you probably won't have much fun being a rogue.
Edit: And if the campaign has a lot of fighting monsters, being the ones ambushed rather than the ambushers, then you need to build the rogue for combat.
Most RPGs have conditioned us to believe that the Rogue is a DEX-based class. It's not in Pathfinder. Unless you can sink your gold into agile weapons (and you don't mind being useless without them), you're actually a STR-based class. A mediocre dex will suffice. Your bonuses to skills will still be very good with ranks and the class bonus. Trapfinding gives you a good scaling bonus to your "class role", making you more than capable even with average dex.
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Most RPGs have conditioned us to believe that the Rogue is a DEX-based class. It's not in Pathfinder. Unless you can sink your gold into agile weapons (and you don't mind being useless without them), you're actually a STR-based class. A mediocre dex will suffice. Your bonuses to skills will still be very good with ranks and the class bonus. Trapfinding gives you a good scaling bonus to your "class role", making you more than capable even with average dex.
For a medium-sized rogue, I would definitely agree with you. However, a halfling is already fighting an uphill battle, and focusing on strength would only make matters worse.
Strength-based is the most reliable strategy for something without a strength penalty, however.
#1 way to have fun with rogues? Enjoy playing the class.
My suggestion wasn't sarcastic, in case that thought printed your reply. I have played several rogues over the years.
I'm pretty sure I will have fun with my Rogue when I get around to him. I'm having a blast with my bard and the majority of the time I'm doing skills.
I wish Rogues got all Knowledge skills in class. If I went Gnome or Elf I could get Breadth of Experience. I suppose Rogues are the streetsmart class as opposed to the booksmart types.
I wish Rogues got all Knowledge skills in class. If I went Gnome or Elf I could get Breadth of Experience. I suppose Rogues are the streetsmart class as opposed to the booksmart types.
As a suggestion... a level or two of Lore Warden Fighter will get you some sorely-needed bonus feats as well as all Knowledge skills as class skills.
-Matt
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Go for the Halfling Opportunist PrC. It is a Rogue's Rogue.
As such it does suffer from the classic Rogue problem of too many facets that you just cannot incorporate in a single build though. You will need to choose, focus and specialize, whether it is at fighting, trap detection and management or infiltration/disguise. And multiclassing just might be the best way to excel at your particular focus.
Mergy already mentioned everything that is important.
The problem with the rogue-class is that it is not the best way to build a rogue.
If you have several classes, all of them covering the "rogue" theme completely (keep in mind, classes are just mechanical constructs, what your chrarakter is like has nothing to do with its class - the class just provides different abilities) then there is no real reason to play an actual rogue. There is no advantage the rogue-class has over some other classes in playing the "sneaky role".
If you renamed the bard, the ranger and the rogue "class 1", "class 2" and "class 3" and someone wanted to play a rogue-like charakter then - after checking out and understanding those three mechanical bases he can use for his charakter, I highly doubt someone who has understood the mechanics of the game would pick "class 3" - the actual rogue.
The only thing it provides over the other classes is SA and yea, thats an incombat ability that is - combined with the rest of the mechanical construct "rogue" - not worth picking the class over one of the others.
Honestly I'd predict if the class would not be named "rogue" it would not be played much at all and if so then by those who do not understand that sneak attack is not the best way to DPR (excluding those really tough optimized rogue-builds, especially those sap-THF-ones, but I feel like thise are not played that much anyway, even though I think its probably the best to do with your rogue).
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3) Even wizards tend to be better rogues, depending on what you are looking for. An abjurer or diviner are both going to be able to bypass or remove traps, and the magic they're bringing is almost always better than a handful of d6s.You can't save versus sneak for half; and the rogue doesn't have to beat SR to get his dice.You can't possibly be telling me that spells are less reliable than getting off sneak attack.
In any case, I don't think there's a saving throw against invisibility...
Speaking of cheap wands suitable for UMD.
About the one class my own wizard really fears is the rogue.
Lastly, if you REALLY must have Trapfinding, a rogue 1/wizard x is still a better rogue than a rogue. Come to think of it, go ranger or sandman bard 1/wizard x
I don't know why you're keying on trapfinding, as I never brought it up. IMO it's a relatively minor aspect of the rogue's total package.