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Last night a paladin was paralyzed and then coup de grace'd (71 hp damage). The paladin originally had 124 hp but was now dead. The cleric attempted Breath of Life (BoL). The gm and party were perplexed.
One person thought the paladin was alive having life "breathed" back into him. (New hit point total: 124 hp minus 71 damage but healed for the BoL amount). Another person thought the paladin was alive but with zero hp plus the BoL. A third thought the paladin was alive but minus his constitution plus BoL (too bad his con was high).
The GM ruled the paladin remained dead because the save was the equivalent of a "death effect". It was PFS play so the paladin used prestige points for a raise dead. The coup de grace was merely weapon damage, not a spell-like or supernatural effect that rips the soul from the body.
Having re-read raise dead, that doesn't work on "death effects."
Question: Does raise dead bring a character killed by a coup de grace back to life?
Coup de Grace is not a death effect. As per the devs, the definition of a Death Effect is literally anything that says "This is a Death Effect". Coup de Grace does not say this.
No. Nowhere does it say it is a death effect, so it is not. To the extent of my knowledge, the only things that can be death effects are spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A CdG is none of these, and as stated, its rules text says nothing about being a death effect, so it is not one.
GM is wrong.
Yes. A coup de grace isn't a death effect (all such effects specify that they are death effects, and/or are spells with the "death" descriptor).
PF does clearly define what a death effect is ... a spell with the death descriptor, or some ability that explicitly states 'This is a death effect'.
Correct.
GM was totally wrong.
So the Breath of Life should have worked and the raise dead wasn't required?
Correct. As for exactly how many hit points the character would have, I would say "124 -71 +healing".
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Breath of Life leaves some holes that require some adjudication. For example, it would not help with death by Constitution damage/drain, which is neither death by HP loss nor a death effect. It isn't a case of either/or. There are not only two ways to die.
Having made the ruling the BoL wouldn't work (regardless of whether the BoL ruling was correct), I think he was correct in allowing the raise dead.
Whether the BoL would work or not vs. the failed Fort save used in CdG is in one of the previously mentioned holes, thus requiring adjudication. I do not think that it is clear that the character is at 53hp and dead after the failed save. I think it is more consistent with other areas of the rules (such as the glossary on Death Attacks, somewhat ironically) that the character is at -Con and dead after the failed save, with BoL being capable of preventing the death.
Given the need to rule at the table, I can't fault the GM's decisions on this. It's an unclear area of the rules.
BoL would work. A dead character who dies by any means other than hit point damage, is at -con hitpoints. Death effects are effects that specifically say that they are death effects.
BoL would work. A dead character who dies by any means other than hit point damage, is at -con hitpoints. Death effects are effects that specifically say that they are death effects.
Bolded for emphasis.
I'm not saying you are wrong but would like to know the source for this.TIA.
Coup de Grace is not a death effect. As per the devs, the definition of a Death Effect is literally anything that says "This is a Death Effect". Coup de Grace does not say this.
Although Coup de Grace doesn't outright say it is a Death Effect, it's important to point out that it functions very much like one; a Saving Throw is made before you instantly die.
And a failed Save results in a dead character, no questions asked.
It doesn't spell it out, but if it smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
BoL would work. A dead character who dies by any means other than hit point damage, is at -con hitpoints. Death effects are effects that specifically say that they are death effects.Bolded for emphasis.
I'm not saying you are wrong but would like to know the source for this.
TIA.
In most cases, a death attack allows the victim a Fortitude save to avoid the effect, but if the save fails, the character dies instantly.
-Raise dead doesn't work on someone killed by a death attack or effect.
-Death attacks slay instantly. A victim cannot be made stable and thereby kept alive.
-In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score.
-The spell death ward protects against these attacks.
Although Coup de Grace doesn't outright say it is a Death Effect, it's important to point out that it functions very much like one; a Saving Throw is made before you instantly die.And a failed Save results in a dead character, no questions asked.
It doesn't spell it out, but if it smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
...Sometimes it's an ugly goose.
Phantasmal Killer likewise is not a Death Effect. There was a FAQ (or was it a Dev quote?) on this where they say "Death Effects are effects with the text 'This is a Death Effect'", and anything else (however much it may resemble a Death Effect) is not a Death Effect.
Lemme see if I can find it.
Thread closed, as it's a tautology: a death effect is defined as anything that's identified as a death effect.
Not as ironclad as a FAQ, but still a fairly solid statement of intent, if not RAW (which in this case is pretty ambiguous, so I think it's fair to take a dev quote here).
I don't get how something that behaves everything like a Death Effect is not a Death Effect because it doesn't spell it out.
This would make sense if there was any other discrepancy, but there isn't.
In addition, the rules for Coup de Grace simply say the character outright dies, no questions asked.
I find it relevant to cite the appropriate text for it:
As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced “coo day grahs”) to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
You can't deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you've determined what square it's in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
Bolded relevant text.
Several other abilities that outright kill people either do not have a saving throw or only affect a select amount of HP remaining or both.
In addition, following the rules for people dying outright from Coup de Grace, being revived would require that you go from -Con, not the 51 that would be left, something that all Death Effects would otherwise follow.
Like I said, if it quacks like a duck...
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And like I said, just because it quacks like a duck, doesn't mean it's a duck. It could be a duck call whistle. Or a recording. Or a very confused sheep.
None of which are actually a duck, regardless of their sound.
This game makes a distinction between "Death Effects" and "Save or Dies".
Coup de Grace falls closer to the latter category, as Death Effects are defined as things that say "This is a Death Effect" or a spell with the [Death] Descriptor.
I know all the arguments otherwise, I posted them in that thread I linked you to:
The problem with the "Any spell with the [Death] descriptor" definition is that it isn't adequate to cover all of those things listed in the glossary.
For example: is Phantasmal Killer a death effect?
It doesn't have the [Death] descriptor, but it meets the criteria (slays instantly and allows a Fort save).
However, some things in the definition of terms kind of rely on the fact that something is known to be a death effect to work.
For example, people slain by death effects can't be raised by Raise Dead, and Death Ward protects against it.
So, some things depend on whether or not Phantasmal Killer is a death effect.
So, which is the accurate definition?
If it's "Any spell with the [Death] descriptor" that should specifically be stated.
If it's "Any spell that kills instantly and requires a Fort save to avoid its effect (which has these added attributes)" that needs to be stated directly as well.
If the sole criteria is "Any spell that says 'this is a death effect'", then that also needs to be clarified, since that makes the existence of two separate and mildly contradictory definitions of the term completely moot, at which point, what's the point of having them?
However, the answer given to the question is what I posted above. This is one not likely to be FAQ'd, as the Devs (or at least one of them, and nobody else has contradicted to my knowledge) feel that the intent is clear.
Houserule it as you will, as I will probably do if it ever causes an issue (though I'm not likely to say a Coup de Grace is a death effect regardless).
Looking at the Assassin PrC rules just now, it appears that even its "Death Attack" isn't a "death effect." Pathfinder clearly seems to "death effects" aside their own separate category, as supernatural abilities coming from high-level magic and the undead. Since anyone can do a coup de grace, it probably shouldn't be considered a "death effect."
@ Rynjin
Thanks for the info.
Coup de Grace is not a death effect. As per the devs, the definition of a Death Effect is literally anything that says "This is a Death Effect". Coup de Grace does not say this.Although Coup de Grace doesn't outright say it is a Death Effect, it's important to point out that it functions very much like one; a Saving Throw is made before you instantly die.
Irrelevant. It does not say 'this is a death effect', so it is not. Period.
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[The actual paladin that this happened to also had the Fey Foundling feat, receiving additional healing from the BoL. He also has a boon that let's him treat his con as +7 for the purposes of dying so his 16 con puts him at -23 hp before BoL. Not a great boon at this point :)]
The matter appears settled that BoL and Raise Dead should work on coup de grace victims and a resurrection is not necessary. Coup de grace is a confirmed critical that kills as ordinary weapon damage, not a "death effect" that bans raising.
Not sure the boon would apply in that case. The rules state that a dead character is treated as having -Con hp, period.
Just because the boon protects by an extra 4 hp when taking normal damage, doesn't mean that you wouldn't be dead in that case. There are other abilities besides that boon, including notably having a mythic tier, that give you a wider death window. Maybe worth creating a separate thread that can be FAQed?
Massive Damage (Optional Rule): If you ever sustain a single attack that deals an amount of damage equal to half your total hit points (minimum 50 points of damage) or more and it doesn’t kill you outright, you must make a DC 15 Fortitude save. If this saving throw fails, you die regardless of your current hit points.
Death by massive damage is not a death effect.
/cevah
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Massive Damage (Optional Rule): If you ever sustain a single attack that deals an amount of damage equal to half your total hit points (minimum 50 points of damage) or more and it doesn’t kill you outright, you must make a DC 15 Fortitude save. If this saving throw fails, you die regardless of your current hit points.Death by massive damage is not a death effect.
/cevah
Also, the FAQ clearly states that the massive damage rule does not apply to pfs.
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Also, the FAQ clearly states that the massive damage rule does not apply to pfs.Massive Damage (Optional Rule): If you ever sustain a single attack that deals an amount of damage equal to half your total hit points (minimum 50 points of damage) or more and it doesn’t kill you outright, you must make a DC 15 Fortitude save. If this saving throw fails, you die regardless of your current hit points.Death by massive damage is not a death effect.
/cevah
Not relevant. He wasn't saying it did apply, just that it is similar, in some ways, to how coupe de grace works. You take a bunch of damage, and, if that damage doesn't kill you outright, you get to make a Fort save or die.
Oddly, CdG is actually, except for rare instances, going to have a harder save DC than massive damage does.
Rare instances: Dagger wielder, Str penalty, lowers damage done to non-lethal despite being an auto-crit for x2 damage...
I think that 'damage' is short for 'lethal damage'. Non-lethal damage is different to damage.
Yep.
I think that 'damage' is short for 'lethal damage'. Non-lethal damage is different to damage.
So you're saying that a coup-de-gras with a non-lethal weapon like an unarmed strike or sap would not incur a save?
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I think that 'damage' is short for 'lethal damage'. Non-lethal damage is different to damage.So you're saying that a coup-de-gras with a non-lethal weapon like an unarmed strike or sap would not incur a save?
Since a coup de grace is literally an attempt to deal a lethal blow, it must be lethal damage.
If you were to use a sap (or any weapon which normally deals non-lethal damage) to deal lethal damage, you would attack at -4. Since a coup de grace auto hits, this isn't a problem. In effect, you'd be doing lethal damage.
Since an overflow of non-lethal turns lethal, the wizard in the above example would be doing lethal damage with his coup de grace even if his normal damage would be non-lethal, as even he can take a -4 attack penalty to do lethal damage, despite his Str penalty.
I think that 'damage' is short for 'lethal damage'. Non-lethal damage is different to damage.So you're saying that a coup-de-gras with a non-lethal weapon like an unarmed strike or sap would not incur a save?Since a coup de grace is literally an attempt to deal a lethal blow, it must be lethal damage.
If you were to use a sap (or any weapon which normally deals non-lethal damage) to deal lethal damage, you would attack at -4. Since a coup de grace auto hits, this isn't a problem. In effect, you'd be doing lethal damage.
Since an overflow of non-lethal turns lethal, the wizard in the above example would be doing lethal damage with his coup de grace even if his normal damage would be non-lethal, as even he can take a -4 attack penalty to do lethal damage, despite his Str penalty.
OR....this is one of those times when RAW doesn't cover everything perfectly, and the GM has to make a judgment call. Like, "no, you can't deliver a Coup de Grace with a whip....no...and no, you can't punch him dead with one really well placed...punch.
OR....this is one of those times when RAW doesn't cover everything perfectly, and the GM has to make a judgment call. Like, "no, you can't deliver a Coup de Grace with a whip....no...and no, you can't punch him dead with one really well placed...punch.
An Assassin can Death Attack you with both of those, though.
I think that 'damage' is short for 'lethal damage'. Non-lethal damage is different to damage.
Power Attack says 'damage,' can it not be used with a non-lethal weapon? What about Weapon Specialization? There's dozens more examples in the CRB alone.
'Damage' is a catch all for all types of damage. Word count is at a premium, the RAW willnever say 'lethal and non-lethal damage' when simply ';damage' will do. If an effect only works with one type of damage, the effect will specify that type, otherwise 'damage' is short for 'damage'.
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[The actual paladin that this happened to also had the Fey Foundling feat, receiving additional healing from the BoL. He also has a boon that let's him treat his con as +7 for the purposes of dying so his 16 con puts him at -23 hp before BoL. Not a great boon at this point :)]
The matter appears settled that BoL and Raise Dead should work on coup de grace victims and a resurrection is not necessary. Coup de grace is a confirmed critical that kills as ordinary weapon damage, not a "death effect" that bans raising.
Dying doesn't mean that your hit points automatically reset to -con.
"Dead
When your character's current hit points drop to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score or lower, or if he succumbs to massive damage, he's dead. A character can also die from taking ability damage or suffering an ability drain that reduces his Constitution score to 0 (see Special Abilities)."
Bolded is important...Dead does not = -con. Dead = -con or when you fail a massive damage save. Suffering massive damage or failing a CDG save doesn't say you immediately reset to - con, it says you are dead.
Dying doesn't mean that your hit points automatically reset to -con.
"Dead
When your character's current hit points drop to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score or lower, or if he succumbs to massive damage, he's dead. A character can also die from taking ability damage or suffering an ability drain that reduces his Constitution score to 0 (see Special Abilities)."
Bolded is important...Dead does not = -con. Dead = -con or when you fail a massive damage save. Suffering massive damage or failing a CDG save doesn't say you immediately reset to - con, it says you are dead.
Massive damage is an optional rule that wasn't stated by the OP to be in use, so it's irrelevant to the discussion here.
For the purposes of games not using massive damage, dead means that your HP is at -CON or lower. I don't think that the OP was implying that death automatically sets you to -CON in every circumstance, but that in this particular circumstance it would.
In the case of a coup de grace, the damage that was dealt to you is irrelevant if you survive it. If you then die from failing the fort save, it doesn't state that you drop to -CON and then take the additional damage on top of that.
It seems to me that a character who fails his save against a CdG would drop to -CON and no lower - meaning that CdG is far less effective against a party that has BoL available, since (assuming the body takes no more damage before it's cast) BoL will bring them past -CON every time.
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Dying doesn't mean that your hit points automatically reset to -con.
"Dead
When your character's current hit points drop to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score or lower, or if he succumbs to massive damage, he's dead. A character can also die from taking ability damage or suffering an ability drain that reduces his Constitution score to 0 (see Special Abilities)."
Bolded is important...Dead does not = -con. Dead = -con or when you fail a massive damage save. Suffering massive damage or failing a CDG save doesn't say you immediately reset to - con, it says you are dead.Massive damage is an optional rule that wasn't stated by the OP to be in use, so it's irrelevant to the discussion here.
For the purposes of games not using massive damage, dead means that your HP is at -CON or lower. I don't think that the OP was implying that death automatically sets you to -CON in every circumstance, but that in this particular circumstance it would.
In the case of a coup de grace, the damage that was dealt to you is irrelevant if you survive it. If you then die from failing the fort save, it doesn't state that you drop to -CON and then take the additional damage on top of that.
It seems to me that a character who fails his save against a CdG would drop to -CON and no lower - meaning that CdG is far less effective against a party that has BoL available, since (assuming the body takes no more damage before it's cast) BoL will bring them past -CON every time.
My point with massive damage is that just because you die it doesn't mean your HP suddenly go to -con. They don't. There is no rule that states that dying makes your hp go to -con. The rule is that if you take hp damage that brings you to negative con, you die. You also can die from Massive Damage, and other stuff like ability drain.
CDG states that if you fail the save you die, not if you fail the save you die and are reduced to -con in HP.So if he was BOL'ed he should have been brought back at whatever his HP were before failing the save + any healing from BOL. Anything else is assuming a rule that you reset to -con hp at death, which is nowhere in the rules.
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A coup de grace with a non-lethal weapon would be a non-lethal crit. That much is certain. I would only call for a Fort save against any lethal damage actually taken.
I would agree but again in CDG it doesn't state that the damage must be lethal. In my home game I could rule that it must be lethal damage but that would be a houserule. In PFS you, per the rules, should be able to CDG with non-lethal damage...as ridiculous as that sounds, and have them make the fort save or die.
If you hit someone who is sleeping hard enough with a sap in the right spot you can kill them in real life so maybe that is what is being done here?
So - perhaps I am missing something. CdG brings our Pally friend to -CON. I understand that, but BoL will not work on characters that are at -CON or worse, so BoL wouldn't save his blessed bacon.
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If you hit someone who is sleeping hard enough with a sap in the right spot you can kill them in real life so maybe that is what is being done here?"Hitting in the right spot" in order to kill the person is exactly what the -4 attack penalty to cause lethal damage with a sap implies.
I agree and since the attack on a CDG auto-hits you can assume that any CDG attempt with a nonlethal damaging weapon is using the -4 penalty to do lethal damage. So you can sap, punch, or whip someone to death. (although I would assume that the whip still would suffer from the " A whip deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher" rule in such instances.
So - perhaps I am missing something. CdG brings our Pally friend to -CON. I understand that, but BoL will not work on characters that are at -CON or worse, so BoL wouldn't save his blessed bacon.
BoL is specifically aimed towards healing those that are currently -CON or worse...
Right - got it. Sorry.
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Also CDG does not bring the paladin to -con. He is still 124hp -71 or whatever it was. He is just also dead which is not an auto reset to -con HP.
To restate an earlier rules quote
-In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score.
So no, he's not at 63 HP he is at -con HP.