Also CDG does not bring the paladin to -con. He is still 124hp -71 or whatever it was. He is just also dead which is not an auto reset to -con HP.
From CRB/562 under Death Attacks:
"In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score."
My point with massive damage is that just because you die it doesn't mean your HP suddenly go to -con. They don't. There is no rule that states that dying makes your hp go to -con. The rule is that if you take hp damage that brings you to negative con, you die. You also can die from Massive Damage, and other stuff like ability drain.
CDG states that if you fail the save you die, not if you fail the save you die and are reduced to -con in HP.
So if he was BOL'ed he should...
Not only is it in the rules, one of them was quoted earlier in the thread.
First, the dead condition:
The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character's soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.
Second, the text of the death attack special ability:
In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score.
So either a character is alive, or - regardless of the method of killing - he is dead and is at -CON or lower. This means that if Coup de Grace kills the target - applies the dead condition to it (and if it doesn't, what's the point?) - then Coup de Grace must set the target's HP to -CON or lower.
Or are you arguing that CdG somehow 'kills' the character without actually 'killing' him and making him 'dead'?
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Also CDG does not bring the paladin to -con. He is still 124hp -71 or whatever it was. He is just also dead which is not an auto reset to -con HP.To restate an earlier rules quote
-In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score.
So no, he's not at 63 HP he is at -con HP.
And to restate an earlier rules quote
-In case it matters, a...... is in relation to Death Effects, which CDG is not because it isn't stated in it's description that it is. Things not expressly stated as Death Effects do not count as such.
That rule you quoted is in reference to death effects so it doesn't pertain to CDG.
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Also CDG does not bring the paladin to -con. He is still 124hp -71 or whatever it was. He is just also dead which is not an auto reset to -con HP.To restate an earlier rules quote
-In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score.
So no, he's not at 63 HP he is at -con HP.
And to restate an earlier rules quote
-In case it matters, a...... is in relation to Death Effects, which CDG is not because it isn't stated in it's description that it is. Things not expressly stated as Death Effects do not count as such.
That rule you quoted is in reference to death effects so it doesn't pertain to CDG.
Lets try this again
-In case it matters, a dead character, , has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score.
While the rule is found under Death Effects, it is in relation to all manner of Death.
"Sean K Reynolds wrote:
... a death effect is defined as anything that's identified as a death effect."
CDG is not identified as a Death Effect.
It doesn't have to be.
The passage that's now been quoted to you at least four times states explicitly that regardless of how the character dies - death effect, coup de grace, drained of all of a particular ability score, stabbed and burned to death with lethal damage, or devoured whole by a giant rabid pigeon - you will always have hit points equal to or less than your -CON.
Is the text under the special ability Death Attack the best place for such a rule? No.
But it's also not the only place where it appears. It's also in the dead condition, which I quoted.
So again, the only way that you can claim that coup de grace does not set the character's hit points to equal to or less than his -CON is to claim that the character is not alive but is not dead and does not have the dead condition.
Also CDG does not bring the paladin to -con. He is still 124hp -71 or whatever it was. He is just also dead which is not an auto reset to -con HP.To restate an earlier rules quote
-In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score.
So no, he's not at 63 HP he is at -con HP.
And to restate an earlier rules quote
-In case it matters, a...... is in relation to Death Effects, which CDG is not because it isn't stated in it's description that it is. Things not expressly stated as Death Effects do not count as such.
That rule you quoted is in reference to death effects so it doesn't pertain to CDG.Lets try this again
-In case it matters, a dead character, , has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score.
While the rule is found under Death Effects, it is in relation to all manner of Death.
Exactly. This rule comes from a clarification made during the 3.0 run, when it was established (in Sage Advice, IIRC) that a dead character is at -10 hit points. Then they put the above quote in the 3.5 DMG, except it says they have -10 hp, instead of - CON.
But it's also not the only place where it appears. It's also in the dead condition, which I quoted.
Yeah, the reason I didn't quote the Dead condition, is that it doesn't quite say that.
It says, "The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect."
That sentence structure puts the -Con on a par with "or he is killed outright".
However, this does nothing to diminish the quote under Death Attacks, not the least because it makes sense.
Also CDG does not bring the paladin to -con. He is still 124hp -71 or whatever it was. He is just also dead which is not an auto reset to -con HP.To restate an earlier rules quote
-In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score.
So no, he's not at 63 HP he is at -con HP.
And to restate an earlier rules quote
-In case it matters, a...... is in relation to Death Effects, which CDG is not because it isn't stated in it's description that it is. Things not expressly stated as Death Effects do not count as such.
That rule you quoted is in reference to death effects so it doesn't pertain to CDG.
Please note that CdG is a Death Attack, not a Death Effect.
Therefore, a successful CdG sets the hp to -Con.
/cevah
I think everyone is missing the obious
-In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score.
equal to or less. Decided by what? well, missing any other indication is clearly GM discretion. At my table for example all death attacks/effect are treated as setting Hp to minus infinite. ymmv
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I was at this game and was arguing that BoL should indeed have worked. I would probably even rule that his hitpoints was still at the 53. Since the death from the CDG is merely his heart shutting down due to the shock of huge heavy hit, but the rest of his body was not devastated beyond repair. The BoL throws life back into a body, and if that body can still support life (positive hit points) they continue living, *clear*. In my opinion, it is essentially the shock paddles with some healing tossed in.
Now the other questions that was raised during that was regarding the buffering cap and aegis of recovery. For the cap, can it convert the "critical" damage of the CDG into non lethal damage? And if so, is the save dc the combined damage or only the lethal damage component? This would also make a big difference if the hitpoints is not reset to neg con upon death.
For the aegis, IF his hitpoints do go to negative con due to the death, does it go off and essentially get wasted since he is dead regardless, just at 2d8+3 more than con?
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Also CDG does not bring the paladin to -con. He is still 124hp -71 or whatever it was. He is just also dead which is not an auto reset to -con HP.From CRB/562 under Death Attacks:
"In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score."
Yeah... But you keep leaving off the next line, where it says that 'The spell death ward protects against these attacks'.
Death Ward does not protect you against CdG, so CdG isn't a Death Attack.
SKR says it isn't a Death Attack, so it still isn't.
Therefore the line you keep quoting does not apply. The PC still has 50-some hit points, they are just dead because they failed a save-or-die.
That line is under the "death attacks" heading, but it explicitly states that it is true "no matter how he died". Doesn't matter what caused you to be "dead" -- if you are dead, your hit points are at most -con.
You mean at LEAST -con, right?
-In case it matters, a...... is in relation to Death Effects, which CDG is not because it isn't stated in it's description that it is. Things not expressly stated as Death Effects do not count as such.
That rule you quoted is in reference to death effects so it doesn't pertain to CDG.
The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character's soul leaves his body.
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That line is under the "death attacks" heading, but it explicitly states that it is true "no matter how he died". Doesn't matter what caused you to be "dead" -- if you are dead, your hit points are at most -con.You mean at LEAST -con, right?
He did, but be nice, you knew what he meant. :)
In any event, it's probably a better idea if we look under the 'Dead' condition, instead of taking a line out of context from a section of the rules that doesn't apply here.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Dead
I posted a thread on this subject.
It's tangential to the regular issue and I think it's unclear enough that a FAQ could be beneficial.
D&D v.3.5 Rules Compendium pg 73, the Dead sub-section of the Injury, Healing, and Death section:
"A creature becomes dead when its current hit points are reduced to -10, its Constitution drops to 0, or it's killed outright by massive damage or some other death-dealing effect. The creature's soul leaves its body. Dead creatures can't benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life by magic. When spellcasters die, all prepared spells stored in their mind are wiped away. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead creature to life also restores the body to some degree. See Reviving the Dead, page 75. In case it matters, a dead creature, no matter how it died, has -10 hit points."
So, they cleaned up the language under the Dead heading (huh-huh), and finally added in the clarified language about -10 that was under Death Attacks in the DMG.
Remember that most of the CRB is cut/paste directly from the SRD, and we've seen a history of Paizo not including the little clarifying bits of language that are not part of the SRD. Fear of lawsuit, or some such.
And to anyone that goes off about how this is not a Paizo source, let me just say....I pity your table.