#05-07 Port Godless [Spoilers, I'm sure]


GM Discussion

1 to 50 of 84 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

I haven't gotten my copy yet, and I can't speak to modifications which may have shaken out in development, but I'm more than happy to discuss anything I can about the adventure here.

-Ben.

Sovereign Court 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well, I just threw up my notes for this scenario on the Prep Drive, including wonderful templated stuff.

Three notes:
- Shift isn't a spell-like ability - It's a supernatural ability (wonderful for not provoking when you need to get away from people), but it's marked as a spell-like ability in the scenario.
- High tier Sophini has a Hold Person in a 5th level spell slot. This supposed to be Hold Monster?
- This is more out of curiosity than anything else, but how is she getting the Expanded Summons ability? Is it just DM fiat or is there an ability that gives it to her? (I wanna summon yeth hounds!)

Looks like a good scenario - we'll see how it works when I run it tomorrow.


I had that spell as Dominate Person but John would need to clarify the change.

The summon ability is a part of being a Blackfire Adept. They can summon different outsiders.

-Ben.

Liberty's Edge

I don't know if this is question should be asked here, or maybe its own thread, but I'll start it here.

Regarding GM credit and the Osirion faction boon; if I have GM Credit for a previous Osirion related mission this season, and then GM this module, do I qualify for the boon reward for the character that I apply the credit to? Also, if I now apply credit for this module to a character, and down the road GM an adventure in Osirion, can I gain the Osirion Item boon from this sheet?

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

Hold monster: Yep, that sounds right.

Expanded Summons: This is akin to a priest of a deity having a few more summoning options. In this case I just wanted to ensure that Sophini had an option or two that she could actually use with her Sacred Summons feat.

Osirion Boon: Yes, I think it's fair to have a character benefit from that trigger condition so long as he or she received the GM credit. Gm credit does softly imply that your character played the adventure but may have just had an off-screen influence.

Also, be aware that for whatever reason, there are two notes about check boxes that advise checking box D. Please use check box C for the Qadira faction mission and box D for Sophini's escape.


Slartibart wrote:
Regarding GM credit and the Osirion faction boon; if I have GM Credit for a previous Osirion related mission this season, and then GM this module, do I qualify for the boon reward for the character that I apply the credit to? Also, if I now apply credit for this module to a character, and down the road GM an adventure in Osirion, can I gain the Osirion Item boon from this sheet?

To expand on what John said, said character SHOULD also be Osirion faction, right?

Sovereign Court 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
John Compton wrote:

Hold monster: Yep, that sounds right.

Expanded Summons: This is akin to a priest of a deity having a few more summoning options. In this case I just wanted to ensure that Sophini had an option or two that she could actually use with her Sacred Summons feat.

Osirion Boon: Yes, I think it's fair to have a character benefit from that trigger condition so long as he or she received the GM credit. Gm credit does softly imply that your character played the adventure but may have just had an off-screen influence.

Also, be aware that for whatever reason, there are two notes about check boxes that advise checking box D. Please use check box C for the Qadira faction mission and box D for Sophini's escape.

Noted. Thanks for your quick responses. Time to finish making the VTT for this for tonight.

Silver Crusade 2/5 Venture-Captain, Online—ACG aka cartmanbeck

Here's a question...

Spoiler:

the map of the basement area/sewers has an obvious hidden door area. My players explored it. There is NO mention of it in the description of either of the map sections it connects. My players decided they wanted to go through the wall, and I had to tell them "well, umm... sure? You can break through the wall, I guess?"

So they beelined to the boss fight. My question is... why isn't there anything about it? Or if the tunnel isn't really supposed to be somewhere for the players to explore... why is it there???

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

cartmanbeck wrote:

Here's a question...

** spoiler omitted **

Answer:

That crevice does exist, but in development I decided that the fight with Sophini did not need a backdoor approach in addition to the many other ways of reaching her. That is to say there's no hidden door there; the inhabitants simply bricked up the area and thought nothing of it. I would treat it as a masonry wall that's 1–2 feet in thickness. Breaking it down is very likely to alert Sophini, giving her time to prepare. Fortunately, there's no true "boss fight" in the sense of winning the scenario. The goal is to rescue Riftwardens, not thrash the Blackfire Adepts, so beating up that wizard early on shouldn't hurt anything.

Why is the tunnel there in the first place? That's a byproduct of using a pre-printed Flip-Mat product. Fortunately, none of the Flip-Mats I know of have map tags requiring features like secret doors.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

I haven't read this yet (will be running it next week) but I'd just like to thank you for using the flip-mat I bought just for Veteran's Vault. :D I was beginning to think I'd never get to use it again.

Sovereign Court 5/5 Venture-Captain, West Virginia—Charleston aka Netopalis

I have a few specific questions regarding the prohibitions on the divine in Azir:

1) Oracles are not required to worship a specific deity. Are Oracle spells prohibited? How about their abilities?

2) Are wands/potions/scrolls of divine spells prohibited? Will using a wand of a divine spell trigger an investigation? What if it is Cure Light Wounds, a spell that is also on the Bard and Witch spell lists?

3) Should a party wish to fight off the guards rather than face deportation, is there any guidance regarding what to do with the adventure thereafter?

4) Is the DC for spotting a supernatural ability, such as channeling, the same as for using a spell?

Shadow Lodge 5/5

I'm not positive about the scenario, but I know in the book Pirate's Honor when they went to Azir, they left a couple of their sailors on an island off the coast with all their healing potions because otherwise they'd have been confiscated.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I ran this last night..it seemed to go pretty well, though the boss fight took a while. The party used the sewer entrance to enter the compound, triggered the trap, and started a long slog of a fight with Sophini, her apprentice, the xill, the guards, and eventually the two daemons. By the time that fight was over, everyone was pretty much worn out, and they were practically falling asleep when they went upstairs for an anticlimactic slaughter of a bunch of CR 1 guards. I think having the sewer entrance available to go through the compound in reverse order really hampers the scenario.

Sovereign Court 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Netopalis wrote:

I have a few specific questions regarding the prohibitions on the divine in Azir:

1) Oracles are not required to worship a specific deity. Are Oracle spells prohibited? How about their abilities?

2) Are wands/potions/scrolls of divine spells prohibited? Will using a wand of a divine spell trigger an investigation? What if it is Cure Light Wounds, a spell that is also on the Bard and Witch spell lists?

3) Should a party wish to fight off the guards rather than face deportation, is there any guidance regarding what to do with the adventure thereafter?

4) Is the DC for spotting a supernatural ability, such as channeling, the same as for using a spell?

Note that these are not official answers, but my best guesses and what I told my players when I ran the scenario.

1) Oracles are just as bad as clerics. They are still divine casters, and therefore still prohibited. (Honestly, I would think that they are just as bad, seeing as they let themselves be manipulated by the gods without even knowing who the gods are!)

2) Yes, although I let them bring their wand of cure light wounds in since the party had a witch and could show that they were in fact his arcane wands.

3) Unless the entire party is built to do sneak away, I wouldn't run the combat. Just DM Fiat it. If the players keep getting caught doing divine magic in Rahadoum, it's their own damn fault. Adventure over. (On the flip side, I made it very clear what they were getting into divine magic wise.)

4) Depends on the supernatural ability. Channel is a definite yes because you have to present your holy symbol to do it. Most others would probably be a no.

Sovereign Court 5/5 Venture-Captain, West Virginia—Charleston aka Netopalis

See, I was wondering about the CLW thing because although the price is the same, it's assumed that the wand was crafted by a Cleric or Oracle. Is there an in-game way to determine who crafted a particular wand?

Shadow Lodge 5/5

I'm very sad, all my player's divine characters are too high to play this scenario... >:)


Matt Haddix wrote:
By the time that fight was over, everyone was pretty much worn out, and they were practically falling asleep when they went upstairs for an anticlimactic slaughter of a bunch of CR 1 guards. I think having the sewer entrance available to go through the compound in reverse order really hampers the scenario.

They had an anticlimatic slaughter with the Pure Legion beating on the compound door and the guards holed up in their towers? Impressive...

The scenario is set up with multiple paths to allow for different playstyles. Your group punched through the downstairs entrance. Another group might stealth over the wall and through the well with stone shape. Another group might masquerade as slave buyers and secure the guildhouse before going into the catacombs. Another group might masquerade as food delivery and have their gear beneath their delivery and use magic to overwhelm guards.

I guess what I'm trying to say is one table's hindrance is another table's opportunity.

But thank you, I'm glad to hear it went well.

-Ben.


James McTeague wrote:

Note that these are not official answers, but my best guesses and what I told my players when I ran the scenario.

I would concur with these responses (and I'm not officia, either), and note that the Pure Legion has overwhelming force in Azir. They cannot hope to escape everyone all the way back to the Society Lodge in Manaket.

-Ben.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Netopalis wrote:

I have a few specific questions regarding the prohibitions on the divine in Azir:

1) Oracles are not required to worship a specific deity. Are Oracle spells prohibited? How about their abilities?

I think they still need a divine focus for most spells don't they? I think its going to be hard to convince the guards that you cast spells, have a holy symbol, but aren't working for that guy.

2) Are wands/potions/scrolls of divine spells prohibited? Will using a wand of a divine spell trigger an investigation? What if it is Cure Light Wounds, a spell that is also on the Bard and Witch spell lists?

[unfounded speculation] They're probably ok with items because the power comes from the item, not a god [/unfounded speculation]

3) Should a party wish to fight off the guards rather than face deportation, is there any guidance regarding what to do with the adventure thereafter?

I don't know how many guards they have in the entire city, but i know how many they're going to use if they have to

Quote:
4) Is the DC for spotting a supernatural ability, such as channeling, the same as for using a spell?

channeling specifically requires you to present your holy symbol, so I'd make it the same.

other supernatural abilities don't have verbal somatic or material components, so i might take 6 off their spot checks.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Played this today, will be running it in two weeks. Great setup, although with seven players we ended up running long by going in the sewers and drawing everything in thanks to the rogue botching his attempt to silence the guard at the stairs.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Played this today, will be running it in two weeks. Great setup, although with seven players we ended up running long by going in the sewers and drawing everything in thanks to the rogue botching his attempt to silence the guard at the stairs.

"I got this!"

I thought this was also a great chronicle sheet. A useful wand and some cool boons. I am just really curious what the new spells are. Does anyone with Demon Slayers care to elaborate. Is the book a good investment as a whole?

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Looking them up on the Archives of Nethys they seem too specific for my tastes. Highly specialized for Season 5 mods, not much use outside of them.


Yeah you are right. I really like the idea of how this boon works, but I can't see myself using any of these spells on my current characters. If I had a cleric I still played (or Paladin at all), I could see the Protection from Outsiders being something I might want for this season though.

Edit: Actually on second thought, having to name the outsider subtype means you will only be able to cast it after combat has started most of the time. When most people cast protection spells, it is just prior to a known combat.

Liberty's Edge

If anyone feels the need for a frightening mental image to start the day.

My Rahadoumi Wizard8/Bloatmage1 decided to fit in in the baths while looking for Eando. Refusing to remove his water protected spell component pouch, ring or amulet (ring dosnt come off anymore.. fingers too fat), he did however opt for a bathrobe and scared the living hell outta the other patrons of the change room. He then proceeded to enter the pool to sit next to Eando.

The pool itself then nearly crested the limits of the sides.

A Soaked Bloatmage then manage to exit the pool by a dimension door.

5/5

The Subtier 5-6 Sophini has her CL as 5th for her Shift SLA (as if her prestige class does not add to effective level) but the Suber 8-9 Sophini has it at 9th (as if it does, and allowing her access to her level 8 SLA). My understanding was that prestige classes add to spellcasting ability but not other features (such as familiar advancement or SLAs). Am I mistaken?

Either way, one or the other stat block is in error, and I am wondering which.

EDIT: Never mind, I reread her stat block, and think the only error is in the "CL 5th". The use of the ability seems to be marked correctly.

5/5

Just found a significant typo:

Sophini, subtier 8-9 wrote:
Blackfire Eruption (Sp) Sophini can sacrifice a prepared spell of 4th level or lower to call forth a searing ebon vortex...

(Emphasis mine). That should be "4th level or higher". As written, she can sacrifice a 1st level spell for this ability! :)

Paths of Prestige, page 13 wrote:
Blackfire Eruption (Sp): At 4th level, a Blackfire Adept can sacrifice a prepared spell or spell slot of 4th level or higher, calling forth a searing ebon vortex...


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber
terraleon wrote:
Matt Haddix wrote:
By the time that fight was over, everyone was pretty much worn out, and they were practically falling asleep when they went upstairs for an anticlimactic slaughter of a bunch of CR 1 guards. I think having the sewer entrance available to go through the compound in reverse order really hampers the scenario.

They had an anticlimatic slaughter with the Pure Legion beating on the compound door and the guards holed up in their towers? Impressive...

Frankly, yes. I rolled to see how long the Legion would take to show up, and it was something along the lines of 12 minutes. The fight in the basement took less then two minutes, and the fight with the guards upstairs took two rounds, and maybe another 2-3 rounds for the fight with the demons in the stables. Still left plenty of time to grab the prisoners and dimension door away.

I'm not saying it was a bad adventure, I just think throwing 16 CR 1 opponents at a table of 8-9th level PCs isn't a very challenging or exciting choice. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of the heist idea, but the opponents (minus the boss, who I thought was well designed) could have used a bit more oomph. And I really didn't like how a (trivially easy at this tier) DC 25 gather information check was all it took to find out about the back entrance.

Sovereign Court 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Matt Haddix wrote:

Frankly, yes. I rolled to see how long the Legion would take to show up, and it was something along the lines of 12 minutes. The fight in the basement took less then two minutes, and the fight with the guards upstairs took two rounds, and maybe another 2-3 rounds for the fight with the demons in the stables. Still left plenty of time to grab the prisoners and dimension door away.

I'm not saying it was a bad adventure, I just think throwing 16 CR 1 opponents at a table of 8-9th level PCs isn't a very challenging or exciting choice. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of the heist idea, but the opponents (minus the boss, who I thought was well designed) could have used a bit more oomph. And I really didn't like how a (trivially easy at this tier) DC 25 gather information check was all it took to find out about the back entrance.

When I ran it, my party decided to go through the top by posing as slave buyers. Having the lots of people up there made it feel like it was heavily guarded while not being killer for the PCs when they started hostilities. When it came time for the fight, the PCs finished taking care of the guards at about the same time that the daemons teleported in. And honestly, let them steamroll it. Let them think it was pretty easy - since the harder fights are somewhere else.

Also, they get a lot scarier when you use their Improved Sunder feat.

Liberty's Edge

Im hoping my party when I run this in 2 weeks is a lot more creative than we were. We litterally bought ladders and scaled the sides of the walls. (Okay I flew over the top but same principle)

The Exchange 5/5

Seoni kindly used her scroll of fly, cast invisibility on the entire party, and dropped a rope down from the wall. Bill used an oil of silence as we entered the main building where we sneaked around. We managed to quietly rescue a riftwarden upstairs before proceeding to the lower level where we ambushed some very unwelcoming people and their weird pet that attempted to devour me. Fortunately they were no match for our capabilities.

We somehow managed to convince Kah to avoid making a public spectacle of his magic. Those Pure Legion sorts did not seem very amenable to rational discussion. I think they really need to take up a hobby to relax. Perhaps singing. Their uniforms would look nice in a chorus.

As we leave Rahadoum I cannot help but hope that poor mage takes good care of Charlie. That little canary has been a loyal friend on many adventures. I'm sure he'll serve well as the mage's new familiar.

Dark Archive 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Minnesota—Minneapolis aka Silbeg

Wow, this took me a while to figure out. Evidently Sophini's arcane bond is her dagger? That's a rather interesting choice.

A couple of things I want to make sure about so that I don't get them wrong.

First, with her arcane bond, she can recall any of her spells... including the few in her book that are not memorized. This really gives her a lot of versatility (especially at 8-9 where there are two of her!)

While she has the ability to summon yeth hounds and vargouilles, there really is no reason for her to do so. Thus, I am likely going to throw other critters are the PCs (since it is not dictated what she summons)... stuff like Fiendish Dire Lions. She can cast these from while invisible, and as a standard action.

The big question, though, is whether she should hold back her arcane bond spell until she's had to retreat. The Daemons could d-door her back to the fight, so she pretty much doesn't need that. If it weren't for her tactics calling out using Dimension Door to get away (and getting 800' away probably means she is gone) I'd use it for Teleport. Instead, I am thinking another Summon V would be good?

The "boss fight" really looks like it could be a challenge. 2 casters, a Xill to help guard, and potentially up to 5 Daemons (depending on how things go)? Wowsers... they better bring their "A" game.

I really like how she has an extra spell component pouch... shows that the authors have been listening to player tactics!

Here's another question: Would Sophini trigger the alarms (blackfire candle, etc) herself? I ask, because of how it will affect the time before the authorities arrive.

Thanks for the help! Really looking forward to running this (and now wishing I had played it first)!


Personally, I consider the arcane bond a last ditch option. The shift power gives her some range, at least in the basement, because the characters don't know where she could have gone, and depending on how the event goes down, there's even the option of the well-- shifting there and then retreating after a few hours.

Otherwise, I'd stick to the bond with the dim door or a dispel magic in case there's a dim anchor in play. Honestly, once it's completely gone south, there's not a lot of reason for her to stick around. Retreating back to the greater Blackfire circle makes good sense.

I'd also add that there's no reason the defenders don't try to lure the party into a situation optimal for their counter-ambush, either with a Riftwarden, or something summoned, and then alpha-strike with as much as possible against the adventurers. If things then go south, the BFA knows to hit the alarm, call in the Legion and escape to let the characters deal with the aftermath.

-Ben.


there's actually an improvement you could make on the tactics-- have ceustodaemon reinforcements be dim door'd in by one of them, since they can take passengers, and that allows for the other one to act with a SLA or they could even jump to Sophini, get her and her friends, then all jump to where they need to go, potentially in the invisibility sphere, depending on how you swing it. That might be a little too rough, though. ;)

-Ben.

Sovereign Court

terraleon wrote:

there's actually an improvement you could make on the tactics-- have ceustodaemon reinforcements be dim door'd in by one of them, since they can take passengers, and that allows for the other one to act with a SLA or they could even jump to Sophini, get her and her friends, then all jump to where they need to go, potentially in the invisibility sphere, depending on how you swing it. That might be a little too rough, though. ;)

-Ben.

Oh that's just evil, hahaha. Notes taken.

Shadow Lodge

Silbeg wrote:
While she has the ability to summon yeth hounds and vargouilles, there really is no reason for her to do so. Thus, I am likely going to throw other critters are the PCs (since it is not dictated what she summons)... stuff like Fiendish Dire Lions. She can cast these from while invisible, and as a standard action.

She can't summon anything Fiendish as a standard. Sacred summons only applies to creatures who start out as the subtype. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sacred-summons

Dark Archive 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Minnesota—Minneapolis aka Silbeg

Dylan Wilson wrote:
Silbeg wrote:
While she has the ability to summon yeth hounds and vargouilles, there really is no reason for her to do so. Thus, I am likely going to throw other critters are the PCs (since it is not dictated what she summons)... stuff like Fiendish Dire Lions. She can cast these from while invisible, and as a standard action.
She can't summon anything Fiendish as a standard. Sacred summons only applies to creatures who start out as the subtype. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sacred-summons

So, I guess I screwed that one up... misread that statement to alignment exactly matching, not subtype. And there is absolutely nothing that a NE caster can use this feat on, save for those two (useless) expanded summons.

FYI - I wasn't going by the Fiendish template, but based on the fact that summons changes the summoned creature's alignment to exactly match the casters, and it changes the spell to that type.

Well, in reality, that only affected a single casting (though it was the Summon V) - and I could have made a different (and probably more dangerous) choice at that time. The rest of their summons were handled while invisible, not being affected by anything, or in other rooms. In fact, I think I only used 3 total summons spells (1X Summon V, 1X Summon IV, 1X Summon III) - and only one was done when there was a chance to disrupt.

Dylan, thank you for pointing that out. Still would never bother to summon the Yeth Hounds or Vargouilles at this level.

Lesson learned... don't take Sacred Summons if you are NE.

5/5

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I noticed an issue when reporting this.

Under Secondary Success Conditions on page 25 it states "If Sophini escapes, check box D on the reporting sheet."

Under the Qadira faction notes on page 26 it states "If the PC's convince Jahani to form a partnership with Aaqir al'Hakim, check box D on the reporting sheet.

Maybe this season there should be a summary for each block just to make sure the right one gets done. There was clearly a misprint here, which one is which?

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

Soluzar wrote:

I noticed an issue when reporting this.

Under Secondary Success Conditions on page 25 it states "If Sophini escapes, check box D on the reporting sheet."

Under the Qadira faction notes on page 26 it states "If the PC's convince Jahani to form a partnership with Aaqir al'Hakim, check box D on the reporting sheet.

Maybe this season there should be a summary for each block just to make sure the right one gets done. There was clearly a misprint here, which one is which?

Please see my first post in this thread. I believe the last clarification there should help out in this regard.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Just had the most bizarre experience in my Port Godless game. THe group were playing at 5-6 with the 4 player cap. They are having a big melee with Sophini , some summoned friends and a Daeomon or two. Its a pretty tough fight but the Fighter/Witch has riddled her with arrows to a staggered condition. Her recourse was to Dimension door right out of there. She couldnt go above ground (the pure legion had arrived and she didnt know if it was safe). Her daemons were dead so she D-doored out into a safe hole in the sewers.

What i didnt expect was for her to fail her stabilisation check.. and then bleed out to death. I had to keep a straight face as I made secret roll after secret roll till she died.

I was all ready to tick box D, but ... wow... it didnt happen.

They also never found her body on their retreat so less gold.. but they lived.

Still very strange.

5/5

terraleon wrote:
...then all jump to where they need to go, potentially in the invisibility sphere, depending on how you swing it. ...

Just found that creatures entering an invisibility sphere after it is cast do not become invisible, so this doesn't get as nasty as I thought it would...

5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Ran this last night. Party composition included 2 paladins, 2 aasimar, a tiefling, and a fighter whose back story is "escaped slave". (And a gnome bard, just for variety.)

I gave them the background on Rahadoum while still in Absalom, in case any of them would want to play different characters. No one opted out. (I have awesome players.)

In the discussion on what can and can't come into the country, we came up to an interesting discussion on paladins (surprise) in this scenario. (First, let me state - I'm not looking for ways to give paladins trouble - in fact this issue was raised by the paladin players themselves.)

Since using divine powers is illegal, as ruled by the legitimate authority of the land, and since the paladin's oath requires them to "respect legitimate authority" (CRB p.63-4), does it violate the paladin's code of conduct to use divine powers while in Rahadoum? If so, what powers? Active powers like lay on hands? Or even involuntary things like the save bonus from divine grace? Since this is an internal conflict for the paladin, it doesn't really matter if they get caught doing it or not.

We had a great RP time where the PCs worked it out for themselves, with some guidance from their "inner voice" (me). They decided that yes, it would jeopardize their paladin status to break the law flagrantly, but that if they were either in dire need or serving a greater good, it would probably be ok (or at least unavoidable). It became a recurring theme throughout the game - they creatively avoided all use of active divine powers while within Rahadoum territorial limits, until they were up against obviously fiendish opponents. All in all, a great game, culminating in the new battle cry of Iomedae, "This little box on my forehead says it's OK, let's GO!"

For future reference, though, I'm interested to hear thoughts on this. Other players in our Lodge would have pushed the limits of what they could get away with, and so it will come up (possibly also for monks, who depend on the "lawful" aspect of their alignment as well).

My feelings, based on the game I ran, was that monks won't have a problem - "lawful" is broad enough to allow for them to break the laws without totally changing alignment.

Paladins have that special code with "respect legitimate authority", though. I implied that using divine powers would be breaking the law and they would risk losing their powers, even if it was to save their own life or those of their companions - but that such a price was worth paying to "do the right thing". However, I'm not sure I would have actually enforced this, except in really obvious circumstances - and it never came up because the paladins were both awesome.

Given that Season 5 has a lot of aasimar paladins floating around, I suggest GMs give this some thought before running Port Godless. It's a great scenario, but it's really all about players accepting the consequences of their actions. It can really give paladins a great character development experience, and a chance to do something other than "enter room - smite - go to next room".

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Interesting point about the paladin's code, Scott. I played my LG cleric of Iomedae in this scenario, and felt like the tension was a bit lighter than I expected. It mostly consisted of getting past customs (polish of inconspicuous armor and a pathfinder pouch took care of that entirely off-screen) and then just not causing a ruckus in the middle of town square or anything (which, being a non-murder-hobo, was already SOP).

But then again, my cleric doesn't fall for a single instance of failing to respect legitimate authority. Even if that had been enough to shift him to NG, that's still a valid alignment for that character. But a paladin... yikes. That's dicey.

Silver Crusade 5/5

A very strong argument can be made that a paladin would not consider that law to be valid. Its outlawing their God. How can that be legitimate? How could any mortal authority possibly have the right to do that? How can their God mind if they violate such a law?

That was certainly how my Lawful cleric of Abadar felt when he went into Rahadoum in a different scenario.

3/5

pauljathome wrote:

A very strong argument can be made that a paladin would not consider that law to be valid. Its outlawing their God. How can that be legitimate? How could any mortal authority possibly have the right to do that? How can their God mind if they violate such a law?

That was certainly how my Lawful cleric of Abadar felt when he went into Rahadoum in a different scenario.

This. Paladins follow divine LAW and not mortal laws. That is why they can massacre the citizens of Geb who are undead and oppose the lawful rulers of Cheliax who consort with devils and still be "good guys".

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Saint Caleth wrote:
Paladins follow divine LAW and not mortal laws.

Then what does "a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority" mean?

3/5

Jiggy wrote:
Saint Caleth wrote:
Paladins follow divine LAW and not mortal laws.
Then what does "a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority" mean?

That they follow laws made by authorities which they deem legitimate. In the eyes of a paladin this would be governments and other rule-enforcing bodies which are lawful and/or good aligned as well as those who provide justice and peace. The category of illegitimate authority would include evil and/or unjust regimes but more relevantly for this scenario, a divinely guided paladin would absolutely not regard any authority which proscribes religion to be legitimate.

Sovereign Court 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Saint Caleth wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Saint Caleth wrote:
Paladins follow divine LAW and not mortal laws.
Then what does "a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority" mean?
That they follow laws made by authorities which they deem legitimate. In the eyes of a paladin this would be governments and other rule-enforcing bodies which are lawful and/or good aligned as well as those who provide justice and peace. The category of illegitimate authority would include evil and/or unjust regimes but more relevantly for this scenario, a divinely guided paladin would absolutely not regard any authority which proscribes religion to be legitimate.

By that same logic, paladins of Sarenrae are allowed to kill any government official in Taldor without breaking their code? That seems wrong. (And not just because I have a vested interest in keeping Taldan government officials alive...)

I have real problems saying that if someone doesn't recognize your religion, it's illegitimate authority. It may not be a great idea, but it's something that is perfectly lawful. Golarion religions aren't defined on belief in a thing that may or may not exist. Any government should be allowed to say "This guy and his fan club are stirring up too much trouble, so we're going to ban his fan club since we can't really ban the guy." Good organizations can come into conflict with each other too, and they're both still legitimate.

That being said, I think the way Scott's table approached this is great. As long as the paladins are considering why they are there and temper their actions based on the laws and customs around them, I'm not too worried.

5/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Rahadoum is listed as a Lawful Neutral nation, and its "Laws of Man" came about by a populist movement that was widely supported by everyone but the established clergy fighting for control of the city-states. They have stood for more than two thousand years, and Rahadoum has had almost no incidences of civil war of internal strife, even when they get hit by plagues or whatever other bad things happen from not having a bunch of clerics around. As a result, Rahadoum has become a highly-educated society with a high level of political and social engagement amongst its citizens. If that doesn't make them "legitimate authority", what would?

Deciding that laws that you don't agree with aren't "legitimate" and so you don't have to follow them, is basically the definition of a chaotic alignment.

3/5

James McTeague wrote:
By that same logic, paladins of Sarenrae are allowed to kill any government official in Taldor without breaking their code? That seems wrong. (And not just because I have a vested interest in keeping Taldan government officials alive...)

But a paladin of Sarenrae could absolutely fight against Taldan law enforcement officers on behaf fellow followers of Sarenrae who are being persecuted. They would probably want to not kill the Taldans but can absolutely direct violence against them. That is the paladin rejecting the legitimacy of the laws of Taldor which impinge on their ability to follow their faith and I don't see that as a problem.

Quote:
I have real problems saying that if someone doesn't recognize your religion, it's illegitimate authority. It may not be a great idea, but it's something that is perfectly lawful. Golarion religions aren't defined on belief in a thing that may or may not exist. Any government should be allowed to say "This guy and his fan club are stirring up too much trouble, so we're going to ban his fan club since we can't really ban the guy." Good organizations can come into conflict with each other too, and they're both still legitimate.

Paladins are the ultimate purveyors or "my way or the highway". The paladin's way is to cultivate the worship and power of non-evil deities. Rahadoum is directly opposing that ideal. Maybe I am just more cynical about lawful alignments than most people. I don't know.

Scott Young wrote:
Rahadoum is listed as a Lawful Neutral nation, and its "Laws of Man" came about by a populist movement that was widely supported by everyone but the established clergy fighting for control of the city-states. They have stood for more than two thousand years, and Rahadoum has had almost no incidences of civil war of internal strife, even when they get hit by plagues or whatever other bad things happen from not having a bunch of clerics around. As a result, Rahadoum has become a highly-educated society with a high level of political and social engagement amongst its citizens. If that doesn't make them "legitimate authority", what would?

Why would a paladin, as a highly devout character, respect the tenets of a philosophy which directly villainizes them? The paladins represent the most entrenched of the clergy that got ousted. They would not go along with the regime that literally wants to wipe their kind off the planet. What makes that an illegitimate authority is their opposition to the very idea of religion, the idea that represents the foundations of a paladin's power and authority.

Scott Young wrote:
Deciding that laws that you don't agree with aren't "legitimate" and so you don't have to follow them, is basically the definition of a chaotic alignment.

Paladins go along with laws that they presumably find distasteful all the time, like legal slavery. This is not just a law they don't agree with. This is about laws that directly oppose the very thing (religion) that they have built their lives and identities around. That is a whole other ballgame than a CG person thinking that a law is stupid and counterproductive.

Remember that paladins are religions fanatics. They are fanatical about good things but still fanatical.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

@Saint Caleth — Kinda sounds like maybe you got your idea of what paladins and lawfulness are all about from watching people (fail to?) roleplay them rather than from the source material on those concepts. That's a dangerous proposition. ;)

1 to 50 of 84 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Organized Play / GM Discussion / #05-07 Port Godless [Spoilers, I'm sure] All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.