Okay. Got a player who's starting a lvl 1 gnome wizard in illusion school of magic. He wants a beefy spellbook from a deal with a devil or demon. I'm tempted to allow this but I want some advice how what kinda deal his character would make in order to receive this book. What kinda deals would ya think for this wizard to have said spell book?
Only thing I can think of is that he offered up sacrifises for said spell book and made himself forget how he got it meaning that be already fulfilled the deal and forgot about how exactly he got it. But that may seem a bit to punishing so I'm looking for some advice and examples of deal he could make or have made. Meaning either things he's already done for the book or will eventually have to do or a code of fonduct etc etc.
Preciate the advice and again I'm still on the fence about this.
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Well it also depends on what the other party members are playing as well. If the party is skewing good over all then you need to tell him that he's on his own if the rest of the group finds out about his little deal. Especially if there's a Paladin in the group.
Odds are he wants this for more than what he's telling you. You're free to say no since this is first level; but if he's really insistent that it's "what his character would do" then call him aside and roleplay the deal out. Make him actually sweat the details what does he want, what he is willing to pay, and what does the devil want in return AS payment? Devils aren't stupid, if one thinks that you're just going to try and go back on the agreement then there needs to be a clause covering that very issue so he doesn't get cocky. Something along the lines of "failure to comply with signiture's duties in relation to contractual obligations will result in immediate loss of all physical wealth, properties, powers and goods in perpetuity, until such time as proper restitution has been made". (basically strip him of all gear and monies (maybe a level a day as well) until he does his job) really make him stop and think about whether or not this is a good idea.
If he still goes for it, then feel free to drop the promise hammer on him at the most inconvenient time possible. Devils aren't known for their mercy you know.
Only thing I can think of is that he offered up sacrifises for said spell book and made himself forget how he got it meaning that be already fulfilled the deal and forgot about how exactly he got it. But that may seem a bit to punishing so I'm looking for some advice and examples of deal he could make or have made. Meaning either things he's already done for the book or will eventually have to do or a code of fonduct etc etc.
There is no way I'd let this guy go with a "well, it's in your backstory and the deal is already done." And frankly, I can't think of too much that a level 1 could do to satisfy such a deal. And this likely means "future service" as payment.
I agree with making him RP the deal itself.
A cunning devil might not demand his soul, as this might scare him off. Shiny book of spells now, unnamed future service from him later, devil gets his soul if you break the deal. The future service, though, should both advance the greater cause of evil, and be evil enough to damn his soul. If he takes the deal, don't give easy outs. Terms of the deal, either he performs service (which damns him and preferably others as well), or he breaks the terms of the deal, and forfeits his soul immediately. A win for Hell either way.
Another option is to make the service into something that gives Hell a handle on him. Make him do something evil enough that his party (or the authorities, etc) would kill him -- if they only knew. Kind of like dealing with the mafia. You just made a simple deal, but now you're going to be doing favors for them for the rest of your life.
This doesn't mean there's no chance of redemption for him, or no way to get out of the deal. But he's going to have to work at it (and probably give up his ill-gotten spell book in the process), and if he somehow succeeds, he's just made himself a marked target for devils and their followers.
Don't completely ruin the game for him -- he's still there to have fun. But playing a "I'm way more powerful than I should be because of a deal with the devil" should have consequences. And only idiots deal with devils and don't expect to get screwed over.
Anyway, just my 2c. Play it how you want in the end. But even if you're a high level and bind a Devil / demand and negotiate for service, you should expect to get screwed over if you're not careful (or even if you are) and possibly lose your soul at the end of the day. A level 1 ... yeah.
There isn't much a level one character has to offer other than their immortal soul and future service.
So, if the character dies the soul goes to hell and will become a devil. Resurrection magic of any type will not function as it would violate the contract. Secondly, he would be asked to perform many evil and devious acts perhaps knowingly or unknowingly. It seems likely the devils would send him on missions to try and kill him to collect his soul.
The moral of the story is that one shouldn't bargain with devils, they will always get the better end of the bargain.
Of course, all this only applies if he really trying to get something. He shouldn't be allowed to get something for nothing. If he wants a spell book with ALL the spells from the wizard's spell list contained within there has to be some cost. Ask him exactly what he is expecting to get with this spell book.
Haven't talked with him over it for a few days because I told him I'd think about it. I believe he's wanting a spell book that has all his school (illusion) spells in it. I have a feeling he will try to outrun or defeat what's thrown at him until he can get a wish spell to either void the deal or get him outta it. Dunno for sure.
I highly doubt I would give him one with all the illusion spells in it but wanted to at least think about if I accepted the idea, then what type of actual deal would he need to make.
The example I gave was one I would run by him first to see if he accepted because I try to stayoutta backstories as much as possible except in very very rare cercumstances to where the players agree with it first.
I do like the clause part though. Didn't think of that. Also with his soul being taken, I could play with that in the story to where his soul was taken but he could still function like normal, he just knew that once he died what would await for him no matter what he did in the present. Could make a trip to a plane of hell to get his soul back and such.
Mmm trying to see what can be brought to the table to enrich and add to their current storys and missions.
Well, if he only wants a spell book with all of the illusion school spells I would suggest you see how many spells that actually is and figure out how much gp value that represent. The value should likely be calculated by evaluting each spell as a scroll that the wizard would have to purchase, and then inscribe (which also costs).
While this value will be significant, I don't think it would be something incredibly significant to a 10th level character maybe. So, maybe his soul only if he doesn't complete a certain task the the devil will request later. Which will happen to a large task that poses great risk to him, but seemingly appropriate to the value of the spells in the spell book. You could also use GM fiat (and don't tell him) that if he welches on the deal the spell book will spontaneously combust and destory all those spells.
59000 Gold for a book with all illusion spells based on that method. Had to figure it for RotRL recently. Now a book of all Transmuter spells on the other hand...
So then the value of a book with all illusion spells is roughly equal to the total wealth of 10th level pc. It's about 7% of a PC wealth by level at 20th level. So, it should be something big, and you shouldn't let him find a way out of it. But since he can't cast higher level spells out of it than he normally could its nothing that will upset the game any more than any other wizard would.
I seriously like the idea of the spell book being destroyed if he attempts to welch out of the deal or find a way to circumvent it.
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There is also the copy from a master method where the recommend cost is far cheaper then a scroll... Depends if u want to be a a dick with the cost or not.
Maybe a tottle of 20 min threw out his character life that he is gone. but dont let him know hes gone. Just say "20 min of hell, when ever we want." and make it the only goal for the devil.
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I can assure you that a devil will know about the wish spell and people trying to use it to circumvent their deals. They'd also put in clauses in such contracts to deal with someone coming up with that particular plan, like I said these guys aren't stupid and they've seen it all when it comes to people trying to wiggle out of a deal.
Now just to play with him maybe there should be an escape clause of sorts, but something that would be so blatantly out of character for the PC that there's literally no way he'd ever do it willingly and he HAS to do it willingly. No mind control, no mind wipes or personality changing spells/abilities/psionics or any such nonsense. He has to make the willing choice to use the clause on his own.
Heck it would be even better if you could actually write it out like an actual contract so there was a record of what was done and that his signature was there to confirm everything.
Go watch the movie "Angel Heart."
That should clear up any issue about what is asked when one deals with the Infernal.
I would probably put the benefits in tiers. Like at character creation give him his normal allotment of spells and then add all the Illusion spells to his spell book for agreeing to the contract with said devil.
Have the devil tell him he will be in touch. Then just before the player is about to gain access to 2nd level spells have the devil show up and request payment for his next round favor. Make it something minor but definitely require assisting evil in some way. Maybe acquire goods or provide a service for an evil cult. Once completed the devil will manifest all the 2nd level Illusion spells.
Then rinse and repeat before each level where he acquires a new level of spells. And make the request from the devil at each new level get more and more evil. The first few requests just assisting an evil cult acquire items and services, and the later requests possible destroying paragons of good or maybe even finding and turning over an evil artifact to evil cultists.
And clearly upon reaching 6th or 7th level spells the player should be well on his way to damning his soul if not already there. Should make for a fun campaign if the player likes to role-play.
Very very nice arlandor. Thats problemly what I will go with.
Mmmm I wonder what type of spellbook I should give him mmmm
Make him take Improved Familiar at level 7 as part of the "Pact" and give him an Imp who is really under the service of said Devil. The Imp can require certain depts to be paid when needed.
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I have to reiterate what a couple of others have asked, and I can't stress enough how important it is:
1) What do the other players think about their PCs running with a PC who made a deal with a devil?!!
2) Will this Spell Book unbalance the game / make his PC cooler than the others?!!
ONLY if those two potential disasters can be resolved should you consider it. Then, whatever you come up with to play it out, make sure you keep in mind those two questions and if the answers change based on what you and this Player develop.
YOU MUST THINK THROUGH THE METAGAME FIRST!
Mmm very nice ideas! Just dawned on me that the leader of their guild who is a dmnpc is a chelixian bard who worships asmodeous...since he's not a cleric or paladin, he wouldn't take a hard stance on trying to break it but will turn a blind eye to the deeds if he every finds out about the contract.
I like the spell book idea but he wants a familiar so the familiar imp is a good idea. I can still give him that spellbook though. Very great ideas tyvm :-)
And yes of course I gotta think of it from all sides. Right now the campaigns just for fun and as an escuse to run thru all the modules. Heck I'm even thinking of making some of their characters mythic to get a grasp on how they run and do.
Do not be nice about this at all. Don't try to put any game mechanics around how the devil has power over this contract just make it so.
1. He seems to be playing the GM here. You and just about everyone here believes he is going to try to get away with it. Although I have played with MANY players over the years who love the idea of their character getting screwed over by something like this... so who knows.
2. Role play out the scene where he makes the deal. Go into it with several objectives for the devil. Write it out much like a treaty, noting who gets what. I would highly recommend that wishes or any other spell effects that might get him out of the deal be explicitly called out in the deal and that they simply will not work.
3. Put a clause in the deal that all of the character's magical energy be from an infernal source. This means that any reneging on his part will cancel ALL spells, effectively making him an ex-wizard until he makes reparations. It also means that he will have a slightly evil aura, perhaps similar to a cleric of an evil god etc.
4. Push him toward the Diabolist PrC or go with the devil sworn idea from the 4th Beastiary (basically someone who sells their soul up front for lots of power).
Jsut one detail:
make it so that only he can use the spellbook.
If someone else tries to use it, all they see is gibberish.
And maybe the spells in it are writen in Infernal instead of Darconish?
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If you can get past the Metagame caveats (listed earlier) then this could be really cool.
The Devil could be a recurring NPC that's certainly not the party Patron but kinda is sorta like one -- that's potentially great.
Or the Devil could just become a banal MacGuffin every time you need the PCs to go to Point B or something in the campaign.
Or even, if the other PCs don't want to be saddled with it, you could treat it as a Pathfinder Society Faction Mission from time to time: the PCs have to save the princess from the tower and this PC has to ALSO get a lock of her hair or somesuch thing (And the dumber you make them the more like PFS it becomes.).
But what could be really cool is if the Devil comes back after the deal is done to try to make MORE deals! And with all the PCs. Kinda like a beggar who, once you give him a dollar he hollars at you the next time you see him, and the next time, and the next.... "Hey kid, just try it; this one's free..."
I love to use a recurring Devil NPC who offers the PCs a deal that not only sounds good but actually IS good, no strings attached. Then, each time he comes back the PCs become less and less skeptical and suspicious -- less and less careful about the wording of each deal. (Cuz they're always REALLY careful the first deal.)
Devil at first: All you gotta do is kill that Demon -- you like killing CE Demons as much as I; it's a "win-win."
Devil's second deal: This guy is a NE Cultist who's up to some bad stuff; taking him out is good for you, too.
Devil's third: Sure, I'll give you each a 24 hour +4 bump to the Ability Score of your choice, just deliver this letter to the Priest of Iomedae -- there's no magic or anything evil about it -- no harm will come from it -- I just can't enter the church. (All true.)
Devil's fourth: I heard that the cleric of Sarenrae is revoking her vows, turning to Lamashtu (true -- he "heard" it); kill her for us and I'll give you...
And each time the Devil returns, the deals -- all temporary and innocuous, become slowly more pernicious -- all the while the Players get more and more comfortable -- and trusting -- of the Devil and their ability to always get a good deal!
Very very nice arlandor. Thats problemly what I will go with.
Mmmm I wonder what type of spellbook I should give him mmmm
I would certainly make the spellbook be given to him from the devil he is dealing with for several reasons.
first and foremost it should allow the devil or his master to always be able to scry the PC, even if the player has magic warding him from scrying as long as the PC has the spellbook in his possession. and I would try not to let the PC be aware of this fact.second make it so the devil will only place the spells he grants in that spellbook, even if the spellbook is full of spells when the devil grants his boon after his favor has been completed it will create new pages and place those spells on those pages. The spells shouldn't be able to be erased from the spellbook easily.
and finally I would probably tie a 1/day spell-like ability to the spellbook that the player can use. it should absolutely be an evil spell or a spell that pushes the player towards being evil. make it tempting to use but not to powerful. it should throw off the player making him wonder why he got this cool ability for free, but it should be to tempting of an ability to pass up on.
giving him an Imp familiar would be cool but its overkill without him expending the resources to acquire one normally. there is no need to have to balance what he wants because it is not overpowered. all you are doing is giving him a group of spells split up over 20 levels that he should normally be able to get and scribe into his spellbook anyways on his own. its not like he is a sorcerer and you are giving him additional spells known on top of what they normally get. the only benefit he has is getting a few extra spells of whatever new level of spell he is able to cast without having to pay for it or make a spellcraft check to learn them. as a DM this is storyline gold here with little risk of abuse that your player asked for. you are the DM and control the flow of magic, magic items, and treasure.
good stuff
I am like you, I love to use a devil npc for stuff like this. and your ideas are certainly how I would use the devil to try to corrupt as many ppl as possible and further the goals of whatever evil overlord the devil is serving.
but I would have all the interactions with the devil be behind the scene with just the player and the devil.....
PC goes to the jake to relieve himself after a fun night of drinking in the tavern and guess who is waiting for him in the stall.
and I would tie all the "favors" the devil wants done (or most at least) to coincide with whatever mission the PC's are doing at that time.
Sigh I believe he got scared. He kept asking for a book with all the spells in it and even stated that he would get it thru a deal with a devil...then I txted him and he wants to gain it from an arcane order. He wants his wizard to roll like Gandalf and said that deals with devils were for people who were greedy lol.
He did bring up a good case and I could make a college of mages as enemys as fearful as a devil taking someone soul. I just gotta tweek the mage of arcane order a bit. Time to start a new thread :-(
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Sigh I believe he got scared. He kept asking for a book with all the spells in it and even stated that he would get it thru a deal with a devil...then I txted him and he wants to gain it from an arcane order. He wants his wizard to roll like Gandalf and said that deals with devils were for people who were greedy lol.
He did bring up a good case and I could make a college of mages as enemys as fearful as a devil taking someone soul. I just gotta tweek the mage of arcane order a bit. Time to start a new thread :-(
lol Maybe he stumbled across this thread?
I think the spell book should ping under detect evil, at the same strength as a evil cleric of his level. Sure, he can try to hide it, but it just keeps throwing off that non-detect spell. Also, when casting spells from this book, HE pings on the evil-o-meter. Let him explain that.
For the arcane order variant, this won't work, but they could have used a deal with the devil as the basis under which he owe's them future service. This lets you still do the RP for the deal. Of course, the spell book is a scrying focus for the order.
/cevah
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Hey, who's to say it's not an evil arcane order? Chelaxians were pretty good at summoning devils, IIRC.
Also, if he wants to be like Gandalf, he'd probably be better off as a magus. Gandalf was pretty handy with a sword. (Or maybe a staff magus.) Of course, Gandalf was an overpowered GM NPC anyway, so he may be disappointed.
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I like to think Gandalf was a Druid/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge, but that's me.
Another route you can do since the PC is a gnome, is maybe have him make a deal with the Fey? The Gnomes of Golarion are already tied pretty heavily lore wise into the First World, and the Eldest and their servants are on par power wise with demons, devils, and gods. This way the penalty needn't be as severe as "YOUR SOUL!" but it can still have a very alien end goal, one that the PCs may not even realize is a detriment until far far after the fact.