I just think it needs to be said that FAQ is not ERRATA.
So, anyone who is on the side of the fence that says, "A Bastard Sword IS a two-handed weapon when you don't have the EWP feat" is wrong.
Wrong.
Wrong.
Nothing in the RAW supports this position ("wielded as a THW" and "becomes a THW" are two ENTIRELY different things).
The Bastard Sword is always a One-Handed Exotic weapon. As such, you should be able to use it in one hand, with a -4 non-proficiency penalty, if you don't have the EWP feat. Why?
Because that's how proficiencies work.
However, the FAQ says this is not possible. RAW disagrees with the FAQ here.
Now, there is no reason that the Bastard Sword cannot work as intended. It is entirely possible for this style of weapon to function as intended. However, to get there, either the FAQ needs to be changed, or the RAW needs to be errata'd.
Official Rules Response
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9rb5
Bastard Sword: Is this a one-handed weapon or a two-handed weapon?
A bastard sword is a one-handed weapon (although for some rules it blurs the line between a one-handed and a two-handed weapon).
The physical properties of a bastard sword are that of a one-handed weapon. For example, its hardness, hit points, ability to be crafted out of special materials, category for using the Craft skill, effect of alchemical silver, and so on, are all that of a one-handed weapon.
For class abilities, feats, and other rule elements that vary based on or specifically depend on wielding a one-handed weapon, a two-handed weapon, or a one-handed weapon with two hands, the bastard sword counts as however many hands you are using to wield it.
For example, if you are wielding it one-handed (which normally requires the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat), it is treated as a one-handed weapon; Power Attack only gets the one-handed bonus, you cannot use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.
If you are wielding it with two hands (whether or not you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield it with one hand), it is treated as a two-handed weapon; Power Attack gets the increased damage bonus, you can use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.
An unusual case of the handedness rule is an ability that allows you to treat a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. For example, the titan mauler's jotungrip (which allows you to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and (as the ability states) treats it as a one-handed weapon, therefore it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects.
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9rb5
Awesome!
I think that clears up most of the issues. Thank you PDT!
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I wonder if the PDT has a special macro to post this.
Thank you PDT. :)
- Gauss
Was going to respond to Neo, but it's immaterial now.
So, now it's a one-handed weapon that can be treated as two-handed for two-handed things.
*shrug*
That'll do.
EDIT: Actually, it's not immaterial. The whole purpose of the previous FAQ was to answer the question of whether or not you can one-hand a Bastard Sword without having the EWP feat without taking the nonproficiency penalty.
I can dig up a specific quote from when the FAQ came out if you like, but the bottom line is the RAW from the Bastard Sword entry itself is what makes the Bastard Sword unwieldable in one hand without the EWP.
It's less important now, since people wielding a Bastard Sword in two hands can now benefit from two-handed-weapon-specific bonuses and the like, but it would remain true for a character without the EWP trying to gain benefits from one-handing a Bastard Sword. It simply cannot be done. Without the EWP, a Bastard Sword is as unwieldable in one hand as is a Greatsword.
It's less important now, since people wielding a Bastard Sword in two hands can now benefit from two-handed-weapon-specific bonuses and the like, but it would remain true for a character without the EWP trying to gain benefits from one-handing a Bastard Sword. It simply cannot be done. Without the EWP, a Bastard Sword is as unwieldable in one hand as is a Greatsword.
My purpose in this thread wasn't this though. My only purpose was the disconnect between the original FAQ and RAW with one vs two handed.
This FAQ (which is still sort of stealth errata, but I'll not be a pain about it) basically says, you treat it as whatever you want based on your feats and class abilities. It actually makes the BS a more powerful weapon, as you can have one weapon (with one feat) that can be used as both an actual Two-Handed Weapon (category), or as it's specific category (One-Handed Weapon).
The foolishness about the -4 penalty for using it one handed from the original FAQ I can simply houserule. I have no issue with an FAQ that I houserule, I only care about FAQs contradicting RAW. This new one clears up the contridiction, and I can go on and simply houserule the other.
It's less important now, since people wielding a Bastard Sword in two hands can now benefit from two-handed-weapon-specific bonuses and the like, but it would remain true for a character without the EWP trying to gain benefits from one-handing a Bastard Sword. It simply cannot be done. Without the EWP, a Bastard Sword is as unwieldable in one hand as is a Greatsword.My purpose in this thread wasn't this though. My only purpose was the disconnect between the original FAQ and RAW with one vs two handed.
This FAQ (which is still sort of stealth errata, but I'll not be a pain about it) basically says, you treat it as whatever you want based on your feats and class abilities. It actually makes the BS a more powerful weapon, as you can have one weapon (with one feat) that can be used as both an actual Two-Handed Weapon (category), or as it's specific category (One-Handed Weapon).
The foolishness about the -4 penalty for using it one handed from the original FAQ I can simply houserule. I have no issue with an FAQ that I houserule, I only care about FAQs contradicting RAW. This new one clears up the contridiction, and I can go on and simply houserule the other.
That part wasn't directed at you. I was talking about Neo saying the previous FAQ should be ignored. I saw your other post on this though, so no worries man! Hope the tooth gets taken care of.
And yeah, this is more of a stealth errata. But I frankly don't care much about that. Cheers!
Ok,
I know some people are going to be saying this is beating a dead horse, but it's not. I simply want to know if a bastard sword is a one-handed weapon or a two-handed weapon.
Exotic Weapons
One-Handed Melee Weapons
Bastard sword
Per Ultimate Equipment (and the CRB, and every other weapon table and chart in the system), a Bastard Sword is listed as a one-handed weapon. This is not like a Lance, which is listed as a two-handed weapon but can be wielded one-handed.
The weapon is listed on the table as a one-handed weapon. I thought this was pretty bog standard simple. If it's listed as a one-handed weapon, it's a one-handed weapon, regardless of any special qualities that let you treat it some other way.
Price 35 gp
Type exotic
A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. You can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.Note the text of the weapon gives it a special quality that it can be used as a martial weapon if you use it two-handed. It doesn't say it is a two-handed weapon, it says you can use it as a Martial weapon if you use it two-handed. So, so far it all seems very straight forward, until this...
...
Exotic Weapons and Hands: If a weapon is wielded two-handed as a martial weapon and one-handed with an exotic weapon proficiency, can I wield it one-handed without the exotic proficiency at a –4 penalty?
No.
Note that normally you can't wield a two-handed weapon in one hand. A bastard sword is an exception to that rule that you can't wield a two-handed weapon in one hand, but you must have special training to use the bastard sword this way. Without that special training, wielding a bastard sword one-handed is as impossible as wielding a greatsword one-handed.
(The same goes for other weapons with this one-handed exotic exception, such as the dwarven waraxe.)
A Bastard Sword is an exotic 1 handed weapon that has a special ability allowing it to be wielded as a martial weapon 2 handed. Without the EWP (Bastard Sword) feat you will take a -4 nonproficiency penalty when wielding it in one hand. It is still a one-handed weapon, you may still wield it in a grapple (albeit at the -4 penalty), you may still dual wield them (albeit struggling to hit anything due to the penalties stacking with TWF for a -8 on each attack), etc.
Late to the party Ash!
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It would have been much easier (and cleaner) to just make the errata so that the BS is normally a Martial Two-Handed weapon with a special caveat that it can be wielded one-handed with the EWP feat.
This FAQ answer is more convoluted than it needs to be, and still doesn't address the issue of non-proficiency wielding.
:(
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Late to the party Ash!
Yeah, seems that way. That's what I get for just answering the OP when I joined the thread. But since Neo2151 said:
It would have been much easier (and cleaner) to just make the errata so that the BS is normally a Martial Two-Handed weapon with a special caveat that it can be wielded one-handed with the EWP feat.
This FAQ answer is more convoluted than it needs to be, and still doesn't address the issue of non-proficiency wielding.
I might as well enjoy the party. Okay, here goes, let's have some fun!
Choose one type of exotic weapon, such as the spiked chain or whip. You understand how to use that type of exotic weapon in combat, and can utilize any special tricks or qualities that exotic weapon might allow.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the weapon normally.
Normal: A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special: You can gain Exotic Weapon Proficiency multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of exotic weapon.
Simple, Martial, and Exotic Weapons: Anybody but a druid, monk, or wizard is proficient with all simple weapons. Barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers are proficient with all simple and all martial weapons. Characters of other classes are proficient with an assortment of simple weapons and possibly some martial or even exotic weapons. All characters are proficient with unarmed strikes and any natural weapons possessed by their race. A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.
Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to use in one's off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can be used while grappling (see Combat). Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half the wielder's Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.
One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
Exotic Weapons
One-Handed Melee Weapons
Sword, bastard
Sword, Bastard: A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.
use
Use Use in a sentence
use
[v. yooz or for pt for mof 9, yoost; n. yoos] Show IPA verb, used, us·ing, noun
verb (used with object)
1. to employ for some purpose; put into service; make use of: to use a knife.
2. to avail oneself of; apply to one's own purposes: to use the facilities.
3. to expend or consume in use: We have used the money provided.
4. to treat or behave toward: He did not use his employees with much consideration.
5. to take unfair advantage of; exploit: to use people to gain one's own ends.
verb (used without object)
9. to be accustomed, wont, or customarily found (used with an infinitive expressed or understood, and, except in archaic use, now only in the past): He used to go every day.
10. Archaic. to resort, stay, or dwell customarily.
noun
11. the act of employing, using, or putting into service: the use of tools.
12. the state of being employed or used.
13. an instance or way of employing or using something: proper use of the tool; the painter's use of color.
14. a way of being employed or used; a purpose for which something is used: He was of temporary use. The instrument has different uses.
15. the power, right, or privilege of employing or using something: to lose the use of the right eye; to be denied the use of a library card.
If you lack the Exotic Weapon Proficiency for the weapon you suffer the -4 penalty for nonproficiency and thus cannot use the weapon correctly in one hand without this training. Using it two hands allows you to use it as a martial weapon due to its special ability. Using it as two-handed weapon does not mean you lose the proficiency to use the weapon from the exotic weapon proficiency which provides absolute proficiency, thus a character without martial weapon proficiency that takes exotic weapon proficiency (bastard sword) will not take a -4 nonproficiency penalty if they later wield it two-handed.
Some may argue that you cannot use at all in one hand, but this appears to be a descriptive thing rather than a rule, or else it would note what that special training was. Instead it would read "making it too large to use in one hand without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) feat", contrasted to the portion that declares a game effect in the form of treating it as a martial weapon.
Ergo, you may wield a bastard sword in 1 hand but you are going to take a -4 penalty to attack rolls with it because you can't use it properly due to lacking the Exotic proficiency for it. Due to the bastard sword's special quality it may be treated as a martial weapon when you wield it two-handed (which all one-handed weapons can be unless noted otherwise). If you lack martial weapon proficiency you will take a -4 penalty even when using it this way. If you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat you are proficient in the weapon in all cases and thus do not take a -4 penalty when wielding it 2 handed (a trait available to all 1-handed weapons) even without Martial Weapon Proficiency.
Anyone have any issues with this? It covers what the FAQ doesn't and it's all from the actual rules. Y'know...those things that the FAQ is supposed to clarify, not change. :P
Except the weapon says you cannot use it one handed without special training, and the original FAQ confirms it.
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Except the weapon says you cannot use it one handed without special training, and the original FAQ confirms it.
What is "special training"? Where do you find "special training" in the core rules? If you take it for what is written here it would be impossible to use one-handed even with the exotic weapon proficiency feat because the exotic proficiency feat by RAW, as stated, only removes the penalty on attack rolls with the weapon for using it without proficiency.
However, the bastard sword gives a description and a continuation of that description. Let's read it again.
Sword, Bastard: A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon.
Let's break this down. It is giving a description of the weapon. Not a mechanical special ability. It is saying that because of its length it is too large to use in one hand without special training, thus it is an exotic weapon. It is an exotic weapon because of its size. That is the justification for it being an exotic weapon. It is explaining WHY you need a proficiency to ignore the -4 penalty.
Now let's leave the description for a moment and look at the next sentence: "A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon". This is not a description. This is a mechanical detailing a special feature of the bastard sword allowing you to use it as a martial weapon. So we have a description explaining why it's an exotic weapon in the first sentence, then a second sentence giving an actual mechanical effect.
Let's see this in another weapon, the Dagger.
Dagger: A dagger has a blade that is about 1 foot in length. You get a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand skill checks made to conceal a dagger on your body (see Using Skills).
Again, in the first sentence here we have a description. "about 1 foot in length" is not a mechanical effect it is a description. "You get a +2 bonus on Slight of Hand skill checks made to conceal a dagger on your body (see Using Skills)" is a mechanical effect.
EDIT: Ergo, again, you can wield the sword without proficiency albeit at a -4 penalty because it is an exotic weapon. It has a special ability that allows you to wield it in 2 hands as a martial weapon.
This really is not very complicated. It just takes reading the rules.
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The Grappled condition specifically says "Grappled creatures cannot move..."
One would assume you must be able to move to attack. Yet a grappled creature can still attack.
TL;DR - Descriptive text is descriptive.
The Grappled condition specifically says "Grappled creatures cannot move..."
One would assume you must be able to move to attack. Yet a grappled creature can still attack.TL;DR - Descriptive text is descriptive.
Thank you Neo2151. Well said. Better than I could have, I think.
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Thank you PDT. : )
This clears up a lot, stealth errata or no. It's obvious that the team put a lot of thought into this and considered the consequences.
One thing which it doesn't cover (as far as I can make out) is if there any alteration of the normal rules re: weapons of inappropriate size.
As I read this latest FAQ, when you use it in one hand it counts as a one-handed weapon and if you use it in two it counts as a two-handed weapon, but as an object it is still one-handed.
The one-handed part isn't special, it's what it is. But the two-handed part is special, and that is about using it, not what it is.
Therefore, when a medium creature uses a large BS, the base for the adjustment is 'one-handed', raised to 'two-handed' as usual for a weapon one step too large.
This FAQ hasn't changed the part about only needing MWP when it's used in two hands. So it follows that, since a medium creature is certainly using a large BS in two hands, MWP is all he needs.
Correct? If not, why not?
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Thank you PDT. : )
This clears up a lot, stealth errata or no. It's obvious that the team put a lot of thought into this and considered the consequences.
One thing which it doesn't cover (as far as I can make out) is if there any alteration of the normal rules re: weapons of inappropriate size.
As I read this latest FAQ, when you use it in one hand it counts as a one-handed weapon and if you use it in two it counts as a two-handed weapon, but as an object it is still one-handed.
The one-handed part isn't special, it's what it is. But the two-handed part is special, and that is about using it, not what it is.
Therefore, when a medium creature uses a large BS, the base for the adjustment is 'one-handed', raised to 'two-handed' as usual for a weapon one step too large.
This FAQ hasn't changed the part about only needing MWP when it's used in two hands. So it follows that, since a medium creature is certainly using a large BS in two hands, MWP is all he needs.
Correct? If not, why not?
Yeah, no. Seriously. No. You are wrapped up on the MWP. A medium BS two-handed is martial, yes but a large BS is not a martial for a medium creature, even though it is used in two hands.
A medium creature wields a large BS in two hands only because the medium BS can be wielded in one hand. If a medium creature does not have the EWP, he may not wield a large BS at all.
So does this complement and expand on the previous faq, or replace it? Because this one doesn't mention whether or not you can use a BS 1-handed at -4 without EWP.
Is that still a no-go, or have they back-peddled?
Thank you PDT. : )
This clears up a lot, stealth errata or no. It's obvious that the team put a lot of thought into this and considered the consequences.
One thing which it doesn't cover (as far as I can make out) is if there any alteration of the normal rules re: weapons of inappropriate size.
As I read this latest FAQ, when you use it in one hand it counts as a one-handed weapon and if you use it in two it counts as a two-handed weapon, but as an object it is still one-handed.
The one-handed part isn't special, it's what it is. But the two-handed part is special, and that is about using it, not what it is.
Therefore, when a medium creature uses a large BS, the base for the adjustment is 'one-handed', raised to 'two-handed' as usual for a weapon one step too large.
This FAQ hasn't changed the part about only needing MWP when it's used in two hands. So it follows that, since a medium creature is certainly using a large BS in two hands, MWP is all he needs.
Correct? If not, why not?
Yeah, no. Seriously. No. You are wrapped up on the MWP. A medium BS two-handed is martial, yes but a large BS is not a martial for a medium creature, even though it is used in two hands.
A medium creature wields a large BS in two hands only because the medium BS can be wielded in one hand. If a medium creature does not have the EWP, he may not wield a large BS at all.
A large-sized Bastard Sword, if you wanted to use it with MWP would take three hands then? So you'd need a certain Alchemist discovery... :)
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Yeah, no. Seriously. No. You are wrapped up on the MWP. A medium BS two-handed is martial, yes but a large BS is not a martial for a medium creature, even though it is used in two hands.
A medium creature wields a large BS in two hands only because the medium BS can be wielded in one hand. If a medium creature does not have the EWP, he may not wield a large BS at all.
You made that up!
Seriously, where in the CRB, the old FAQ or the new FAQ (which I love BTW) does it say what you claim?
Ok right, that's what I thought. Because they called that out explicitly in the earlier faq, right? And nothing in the new one today directly contradicts that, so it looks like that is what we're rolling with.
No MWP 1-handing BS at -4.
Edit: That was a reply to hangarflying, I guess several other posts appeared while I was typing.
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Nothing has changed with the fact that you must have the EWP to use a BS one-handed.So does this complement and expand on the previous faq, or replace it? Because this one doesn't mention whether or not you can use a BS 1-handed at -4 without EWP.
Is that still a no-go, or have they back-peddled?
Since the old FAQ said that the reason it was totally unusable in 1H was because it was a 2H weapon, and since the new FAQ spells out that it's a 1H weapon, the question of 'wield at -4/cannot wield' should be re-visited.
I guess Malachi. Seems like a bit of a stretch to me though.
Except the weapon says you cannot use it one handed without special training, and the original FAQ confirms it.What is "special training"? Where do you find "special training" in the core rules? If you take it for what is written here it would be impossible to use one-handed even with the exotic weapon proficiency feat because the exotic proficiency feat by RAW, as stated, only removes the penalty on attack rolls with the weapon for using it without proficiency.
However, the bastard sword gives a description and a continuation of that description. Let's read it again.
Sword, Bastard: A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon.Let's break this down. It is giving a description of the weapon. Not a mechanical special ability. It is saying that because of its length it is too large to use in one hand without special training, thus it is an exotic weapon. It is an exotic weapon because of its size. That is the justification for it being an exotic weapon. It is explaining WHY you need a proficiency to ignore the -4 penalty.
Now let's leave the description for a moment and look at the next sentence: "A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon". This is not a description. This is a mechanical detailing a special feature of the bastard sword allowing you to use it as a martial weapon. So we have a description explaining why it's an exotic weapon in the first sentence, then a second sentence giving an actual mechanical effect.
Let's see this in another weapon, the Dagger.
Dagger: A dagger has a blade that is about 1 foot in length. You get a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand skill checks made to conceal a dagger on your body (see Using Skills).Again, in the first sentence here we have a description. "about 1 foot in length" is not a mechanical effect it is a description. "You...
So the book says you can't, the FAQ says you can't, then clearly you must be able to..?
Once again, the book is descriptive text. The faq was coming from an assumption that the RAW doesn't/didn't support.
Just to be sure, this FAQ applies to the Bastard sword, Dwarven waraxe, Great Terbutje, and Katana?
This is important, so I need to be sure.
They all use the same CRB mechanics (roughly), so theoretically, yeah, it applies to all 3.
A lot of very happy Dwarves tonight singing the Gold song.