I am confused.
By me? :o
My problems with point buy are less about the game style choice and about giving players a way to make the characters they want, and more about the fact that it's a lie and players still can't make the characters they want, but the ones who claim they can get to have a huge chip on their shoulder about it.
So....your problems are partially ad hominem? Unless the chip on the shoulder thing is just why the argument is being had and not an attack.
As to your argument of point buy leading the bad game design, whilst I personally do agree that the MAD vs SAD problem is a thing. With higher PB being needed to make many martial characters work, I disagree heavily on two claims you make:
a) That the problem leads to bad game design (see Dervish Dance, Swashbucklers using Charisma, etc) and is inherently due to point buy.
I would reject this right out because the method used to allocate stats for a character is not and does not change what certain classes demand. If I roll dice or use point buy, I will still attempt to maximise intelligence on a wizard, and dump intelligence and charisma if I comfortably can on a monk. I posit the entire issue is down to class design.
b)Dice rolling inherently means more varied results.
To an extent, I agree. Because you cannot have two 18s in a 20PB game without major dumping, but within a set variance (ie staying relatively close to the point buy), there is little reason to expect more or less varied characters by any metric. PB characters are more controlled, yes, but this does not mean that players are forced into set archetypes and designs, even with issues of class design forcing certain stats to be preferred. No one is playing a low-INT wizard, yes, but that's because no one ever would except for a joke or some silly stripes proving exercise. However, people do play outside the few set archetypes frequently discussed by optimization boards/guides because those are exercises in the best possible outcome, not in producing acceptable results.
That said, I do not disagree neither are better. Mostly because no one here has, or I would challenge, can tell me what is the desirable product of the generation and differences in this being maximised.
As much as I hate rolling stats and think it should die in a fire, having played Dark Heresy for a while, it's kinda growing on me. :p
While point buy is both more fair and allow you to build the character you actually want to play, I'm finding myself coming around to the point where I actually enjoy the random nature of rolled stats and having to come up with a character concept that fit those, rather than the other way around.
I played Dark Heresy both ways. And I think I'd rather roll randomly so see which class I get to play and then use point buy to make it happen than the other way round.
And I would not mind using a system in which every one got the same amount of stat points but where you get to roll how many you put into each stat.
I think my aversion to randomely deciding the amount of anything a pc gets is so big because:
I once was in a game where we played ravenloft using the 3.0 rules. I knew the gm for some time but had never played under him so far. And I guessed it would be a game heavy on role-playing. So my flat-mate and I decided to build flavorful characters. We ended up playing two guys from a barbarian tribe both starting out as barbarians even if she wanted to play a sorceress and I a bard. I rolled not good but not too bad either.
During the game we noticed that the game was most about roll-playing not roleplaying and every level we gained I rolled bad for hp. About half the rolls were 1s with all being below the average (no d12 higher than 5 no d6 higher than 3).
As my pc got worse and worse at being in the front line and taking the hits I focussed on being a bard. When at around level 6 or so a singer competition came up I was happy and roleplayed how I prepared for it. I practised, I bought special drinks to soothe my throat and so on.
Then the "big day" came up, I had my first match. Taking 10 was disallowed, I rolled a 2 and the contest was over. Non of the NPCs rolled, it was assumed that they were better.
After that I didn't want to play that pc any more. I asked to be allowed to reroll which was declined. I tried to get him killed by returning to the front line reasoning "If I suck at being a bard I have to be a fighting man" ingame. The GM didn't let me die, giving me autostabilize and more or less infinite negative hp. So I had the choice of:
1) quitting the game and having them still ply at my place because of my flat-mate
2) offending my flat-mate by asking them to play somewhere else
3) continue playing a PC I had learned to hate.
That taught me that no game is better than a bad game and I made some decisions. One being not to play in a D20 game with rolled stats or hp any more.
|
My problems with point buy [...is] that it's a lie and players still can't make the characters they wantI'm gonna need more data.This thread exists.
Pretty much all the data you should need.To humor you, I will recant the fact that paizo is continuously putting out products that are being warped by point buy.
Dervish Dance wouldn't be as popular as it is if it didn't mean all of a sudden a magus no longer has to buy in a good STR and DEX to be competent in battle.
Gonna stop you right there. I play a 25 PB Magus and he's a machine... with a 12 DEX. Yup. Twelve. I spent my points on STR and INT and I've maxed my Arcane Pool points. He's a regular Angel of Death, a paragon among Murder Hobo's everywhere! And I digress...
Considering that he is epic-level point buy I don't understand how he wouldn't be a "machine" or an "angel of death paragon among murder hobos"....
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If we want to ask sub-questions, then riddle me this; why is a randomly generated 8 better than a point-buy 8?
You'll have to ask someone who actually holds that position, which excludes me. I was just responding to the canard that "point-buy is always more fair!" -- it's not. That's not to say it's an inferior method or that rolling is awesome; it just means that one (1) of the cited advantages doesn't often hold up.
If we want to ask sub-questions, then riddle me this; why is a randomly generated 8 better than a point-buy 8?You'll have to ask someone who actually holds that position, which excludes me. I was just responding to the canard that "point-buy is always more fair!" -- it's not. That's not to say it's an inferior method or that rolling is awesome; it just means that one (1) of the cited advantages doesn't often hold up.
Except that is, Kirth. It is the very definition of fair. I start with 15 point and so do you.
What is not fair, is when I start with equivalent 32 points and you start with a 4 point equivalent. That's not fair. It doesn't matter that you might have a 16 or be able to cobble together a 18. It also doesn't matter that you allow rerolls or that you have some elaborate system whereby you roll multiple sets of stats (all in the name of fairness, no less.)
Not all characters are created equal, but in Point Buy, they start out that way.
It is the very definition of fair.
Your definition of "fair" varies wildly from mine. I take it you're a Randian when it comes to economics as well?
O.o
Considering that he is epic-level point buy
Epic level? He's just a regular 'ol top-end point buy character.
25 PB
STR: 16
DEX: 12
CON: 12
INT: 19 (17+2)
WIS: 8
CHA: 10
vs.
15 PB
STR: 14
DEX: 12
CON: 10
INT: 18 (16+2)
WIS: 8
CHA: 10
So we're looking at a slight CON hit and damage/hit output is reduced by one and INT barely suffers at all. Yeah, Icaro would still be a machine @ 15 points.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well yes, in a controlled environment such as point buy people will generally use the spreads that are good. I don't see that as a bad thing though, it allows for much greater player choice in what you want to build compared to rolling and potentially getting stats unsuited for the character you want.When the fighter/rogue/mage/cleric/bard in game A has the same exact stats as the fighter/rogue/mage/cleric/bard in game B and the fighter/rogue/mage/cleric/bard in Game C and the fighter/rogue/mage/cleric/bard in game D, Ad nauseaum...
It gets old... Fast.
Who cares? Every single one of their personalities can be different. Every story they share will certainly be different. Don't see the problem. It seems some folks give way more shis about stats then I do. The way I see them is they are as loose a guide for roleplay as alignment. Sure now and then mechanics will get ya but most of the time it aint no thang.
Dice rolling, in general and statistically-speaking, favors SAD classes like wizard a lot less than point-buy systems do.If you're caught up in SAD and MAD, that's a just a whole other issue. Question is random stat generation vs. point buy stat generation.
If we want to ask sub-questions, then riddle me this; why is a randomly generated 8 better than a point-buy 8? I get the feeling the random rollers feel like their 8 is some kind of badge of honor, while those same Randomites look down on the P-B'er and his 8 (and probable 18).
But it's not an entirely separate issue at all since the method of stat generation exacerbates MAD vs SAD issues.
As far as why a randomly rolled 8 is better than a bought one, it's not a question of being better or a badge of honor or something like that. The rolled 8 (or lower stat) is viewed more sympathetically because it was what the dice left you with whereas the bought stat is dumped to that level and compensated with more points to pump a stat elsewhere. If it ends up causing trouble, the dumper deliberately asked for it while the roller made the best of what he got.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But it's not an entirely separate issue at all since the method of stat generation exacerbates MAD vs SAD issues.
MAD vs SAD (if they even exist) is a completely separate debate that revolves around individual class requirements, X class needs more than Y class.
Point Buy vs Random Generation is about 1.) preference and 2.) fairness. The original method of stat generation was 3d6-in-order and all other methods of that style were developed to be more fair.
The fact that Point Buy even exists is because rolling for stats is completely unfair.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My problems with point buy are less about the game style choice and about giving players a way to make the characters they want, and more about the fact that it's a lie and players still can't make the characters they want, but the ones who claim they can get to have a huge chip on their shoulder about it.
I was just responding to the canard that "point-buy is always more fair!" -- it's not. That's not to say it's an inferior method or that rolling is awesome; it just means that one (1) of the cited advantages doesn't often hold up.
You're both 1000000% right. Point buy doesn't create more choice or fairness. Random predefined choices create choice, and the capriciousness of luck creates fairness.
Look, think of this way, people: Where do you have more choice, in a casino, or on Pluto? And what's more fair, a feudal monarchy, or a bologna sandwich?
...Exactly.
Okay, okay, if that's too confusing for you point buyers, just think of chargen as a temporary opposite-zone: What's fair is unfair, and what's deterministic is actually freedom!
But it's not an entirely separate issue at all since the method of stat generation exacerbates MAD vs SAD issues.MAD vs SAD (if they even exist) is a completely separate debate that revolves around individual class requirements, X class needs more than Y class.
Point Buy vs Random Generation is about 1.) preference and 2.) fairness. The original method of stat generation was 3d6-in-order and all other methods of that style were developed to be more fair.
The fact that Point Buy even exists is because rolling for stats is completely unfair.
Unless the players are rolling a different number of dice or some are definitely loaded, rolling is fair as a method of generation. The results may not be equal, but the process was just as fair as starting with point buy - which may also produce unequal results depending on the skill of the player and the character class he is building toward (back to the SAD/MAD issue).
What my group has done for 4 full APs is utilize a standard array created by each player rolling one stat - usually 4d6, drop the lowest. For two of those 4 APs(the two I ran), we ended up with 15, 14, 14, 13, 12, 10.
Going forward, I think I'll be asking my players to use 15, 14, 14, 13, 12, 10 as a standard array. I have found that it encourages players to experiment a bit more (often with MAD characters) rather than falling into cookie cutter (forum) builds. It's 22 points that feels more like 15 in terms of combat power, but plays more like 25 points in terms of role-play versatility.
just give all the players 18s across the board..then everyone is awesome..and therefore no one is.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Unless the players are rolling a different number of dice or some are definitely loaded, rolling is fair as a method of generation. The results may not be equal, but the process was just as fair as starting with point buy - which may also produce unequal results depending on the skill of the player and the character class he is building toward (back to the SAD/MAD issue).But it's not an entirely separate issue at all since the method of stat generation exacerbates MAD vs SAD issues.MAD vs SAD (if they even exist) is a completely separate debate that revolves around individual class requirements, X class needs more than Y class.
Point Buy vs Random Generation is about 1.) preference and 2.) fairness. The original method of stat generation was 3d6-in-order and all other methods of that style were developed to be more fair.
The fact that Point Buy even exists is because rolling for stats is completely unfair.
That is true - rolling is fair in terms of chances on the dice.
It is also true that random rolling is inequitable and sometimes (many times) precludes players from playing the character they wanted to play. And that's unfair, to me anyway.
Point Buy exists so that players can have fun, playing whatever they want and keeping them equal* with everyone else.
/* not all choices in this game are going to be equal.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
People still think point-buy is "totally fair": one last try.
You and Bob have the same job qualifications and experience.
I pay you $70,000/year.
I pay Bob $70,000/year.
What could be more fair?
Never mind that we're putting Bob's payment in the form of stock options in a sheltered offshore account and the company CPA (not me!) provides him with some legal loopholes so that he doesn't have to pay taxes on it. The company also provides him with a house and a car, but HR handles that part, so it has absolutely nothing to do with me (wink, wink). HR has also managed to get him free health insurance, even though you have to pay full price for yours. You pay full federal, state, and local taxes and don't get a house or car.
And, to your mind, this is "the very definition of fair."
As I alluded, Ayn Rand would probably agree with you, but I don't.
In contrast, imagine we make everyone roll dice to determine salary, and to see if you can get some perks, too. Yeah, the end result might be totally loaded in one person's favor after all, and that would most decidedly be unfair, but at least you're starting without a totally stacked deck.
TL; DR: Dice rolling can produce extremely unfair results. No one disputes that. But point-buy as written* leads to unfair results right out of the gate.
* If buying 17s and 18s cost exponentially more than it does now, but buying 14s were actually cheaper, you could make a very good case that point buy was a fair system. Until then, the "fairest" thing to do is probably to give everyone a set array with a bunch of stats slightly above average, but none very much so.
What my group has done for 4 full APs is utilize a standard array created by each player rolling one stat - usually 4d6, drop the lowest. For two of those 4 APs(the two I ran), we ended up with 15, 14, 14, 13, 12, 10.
Going forward, I think I'll be asking my players to use 15, 14, 14, 13, 12, 10 as a standard array. I have found that it encourages players to experiment a bit more (often with MAD characters) rather than falling into cookie cutter (forum) builds. It's 22 points that feels more like 15 in terms of combat power, but plays more like 25 points in terms of role-play versatility.
I'd have no problem with that.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sure there can be rude ways to do this. But imagine the following and tell me if it is rude and what about it is.GM: I'm going to make a game of pathfinder, care to join in?
Me: Pathfinder sounds nice, how are you going to generate stats?
GM: We will be rolling them standard.
Me: Hmm.. you're sat on this? I really don't like rolling. Couldn't you just give us stat arrays? Like you roll some stats and we use them, allocating them as we see fit? Or perhaps point buy?
GM: No, I'm really set on having them rolled individually.
Me: Sorry, but then I'll have to pass. Happy gaming to you. *sadface*
It's not really rude, just sort of childish. I get that some people prefer one or the other, but ditching a whole game because of it? That's like banning wizards because they can potentially be overpowered.
I'm fine with people arguing about how useless rogues and fighters are and how OP summoners and alchemists are...right up until they start acting like the ridiculously overpowered builds would actually happen in any mature gaming group.
The only place these imbalances should be a problem is in PFS. Otherwise, who cares if I can build a really powerful magus with Point Buy? The fact that one character will have better stats is not going to ruin the game if people are mature about it.
Finally, I want a pony. This pony will be from the show "My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic", and her name will be Fluttershy, because Fluttershy is the best pony—just as I think we can all agree that "My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic" is the best television program since Citizen Kane.Nu-uh. Since April 5, 2014, Pinkie Pie is.
Maud Pie is a close second.
Pie family rocks!Sorry but Fluttershy is OBVIOUSLY best pony...
Come back to me when the other ponies can pass an intimidate check vs a dragon and stare down a cockatrice...
I was joking. I figured we're all mature adults and fully aware that Rarity is the best.
Here's a novel concept, give the players the choice. 4d6 drop the lowest, put them in any order you want, or 20 pt point buy. Choose one, and stick with it.
Here's a novel concept, give the players the choice.
Or maybe not all that novel:
I personally allow player's choice: each player can roll stats, or use an equivalent point-buy, or use a set array, at their option.
I have often contemplated giving Players a choice based on the amount of risk they're willing to take.
The average point-buy equivalency of the Standard (4d6) method is about 21 points, so I would give them a choice between that and the standard Point-Buy of 15 points.
I have often contemplated giving Players a choice based on the amount of risk they're willing to take.
The average point-buy equivalency of the Standard (4d6) method is about 21 points, so I would give them a choice between that and the standard Point-Buy of 15 points.
That is taking the problem and making it even worse.
Sure there can be rude ways to do this. But imagine the following and tell me if it is rude and what about it is.GM: I'm going to make a game of pathfinder, care to join in?
Me: Pathfinder sounds nice, how are you going to generate stats?
GM: We will be rolling them standard.
Me: Hmm.. you're sat on this? I really don't like rolling. Couldn't you just give us stat arrays? Like you roll some stats and we use them, allocating them as we see fit? Or perhaps point buy?
GM: No, I'm really set on having them rolled individually.
Me: Sorry, but then I'll have to pass. Happy gaming to you. *sadface*It's not really rude, just sort of childish. I get that some people prefer one or the other, but ditching a whole game because of it? That's like banning wizards because they can potentially be overpowered.
I'm fine with people arguing about how useless rogues and fighters are and how OP summoners and alchemists are...right up until they start acting like the ridiculously overpowered builds would actually happen in any mature gaming group.
The only place these imbalances should be a problem is in PFS. Otherwise, who cares if I can build a really powerful magus with Point Buy? The fact that one character will have better stats is not going to ruin the game if people are mature about it.
I was joking. I figured we're all mature adults and...Finally, I want a pony. This pony will be from the show "My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic", and her name will be Fluttershy, because Fluttershy is the best pony—just as I think we can all agree that "My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic" is the best television program since Citizen Kane.Nu-uh. Since April 5, 2014, Pinkie Pie is.
Maud Pie is a close second.
Pie family rocks!Sorry but Fluttershy is OBVIOUSLY best pony...
Come back to me when the other ponies can pass an intimidate check vs a dragon and stare down a cockatrice...
1) I can see why a person would ditch a whole game because of the idea of stat rolling in order. I would probably pass the game too. Why? Because I hate playing anything that has his turn consist of "I charge. Now I full attack" I prefer playing classes like Alchemists, Inquisitors, rogues, and mages (usually sorcerer and oracle). With classes like that, you need a very specific set of attributes (high Dex, high cha, high int). With rolls like roll in line, you can very easily end up with "fighter" stats, which i hate because I just do not find enjoyment in classes like the Paladin, Barbarian, and fighter.
Oh and Fluttershy is still best pony. RD is second :P
That is taking the problem and making it even worse.I have often contemplated giving Players a choice based on the amount of risk they're willing to take.
The average point-buy equivalency of the Standard (4d6) method is about 21 points, so I would give them a choice between that and the standard Point-Buy of 15 points.
You see, the thing about 'the problem' is, it doesn't really exist unless you are concerned about balance.
Point buy is a false institution of balance, which only exacerbates 'the problem' further.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here's a novel concept, give the players the choice. 4d6 drop the lowest, put them in any order you want, or 20 pt point buy. Choose one, and stick with it.
What I did in the last game I ran was have everyone roll stats. If they were unhappy with their roll they could do a 20-point buy instead.
This makes it so if someone has a character concept they are set on playing, but the dice don't fall their way they can just shrug and point buy instead. Or if the dice fall very badly and their stats are awful they can point buy instead. Point buy was like a safety net.
It turns out in that game my dice rolling scheme was generous enough that no one needed to use the point buy. I like the idea of using it as a backup to mitigate bad rolling luck though.
edit: I guess I should state the reason I like to use some kind of rolling method as default. I want characters that maybe have strengths and weaknesses in areas you don't expect, and no one would bother doing with the point buy limitations.
With point buy every Wizard has a 18 INT and probably an 8 or maybe 10 str (or even lower). With rolling you might get a Wizard with a 15 strength, or a 17 Dexterity, or a 16 Wisdom. Just randomly. It doesn't make the character all that much more powerful but I just think it is cool to have characters with stats that look more organic than the point-buy default of:
STR: 8
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 18
Wis: 10
Cha: 8
My experience is that 2d6+6 should be the standard for rolling, it sets the minimum stat at 8, which is about as low as non minmaxers are willing to go anyway.
I don't advocate rolling as the One True Way to play the game, but I do find 2d6+6 superior to point buy when it comes to letting my players make the characters they want to play.
Myself, I can make due with whatever system and I can have fun, but it's not my own fun that I'm worried about. When you use point buy, the only person at the table you care about seems to be yourself so you can make sure you get exactly as high of stats as possible/plausible where you want them.
In editions past a Wizard with 17 INT post racials wasn't a bad thing. PFRPG has raised the bar and in doing so changed what we perceive as fun and/or necessary to play the game.
I really would not have a problem with point buy existing if it wasn't so directly impacting the design of the game. It is a perfectly valid play style until it starts to invalidate other play styles.
Sure there can be rude ways to do this. But imagine the following and tell me if it is rude and what about it is.
GM: I'm going to make a game of pathfinder, care to join in?
Me: Pathfinder sounds nice, how are you going to generate stats?
GM: We will be rolling them standard.
Me: Hmm.. you're sat on this? I really don't like rolling. Couldn't you just give us stat arrays? Like you roll some stats and we use them, allocating them as we see fit? Or perhaps point buy?
GM: No, I'm really set on having them rolled individually.
Me: Sorry, but then I'll have to pass. Happy gaming to you. *sadface*
Happy gaming?
It's easy to vilify the Dungeon Master, but what if the other players want to use the Standard method for rolling stats too? And, they really need you to play or else nobody can play. Should they all just acquiesce and play your way?
I guess so, if they want to play at all.
People still think point-buy is "totally fair": one last try.
You and Bob have the same job qualifications and experience.
I pay you $70,000/year.
I pay Bob $70,000/year.What could be more fair?
Never mind that we're putting Bob's payment in the form of stock options in a sheltered offshore account and the company CPA (not me!) provides him with some legal loopholes so that he doesn't have to pay taxes on it. The company also provides him with a house and a car, but HR handles that part, so it has absolutely nothing to do with me (wink, wink). HR has also managed to get him free health insurance, even though you have to pay full price for yours. You pay full federal, state, and local taxes and don't get a house or car.
And, to your mind, this is "the very definition of fair."
As I alluded, Ayn Rand would probably agree with you, but I don't.
I'm... afraid I don't really follow this comparison? To me, it sounds more like you're rolling but then you're letting your best friend fudge the rolls. Which would be terrible and I'm working under the assumption that nobody here is doing that.
You can't cheat point-buy. Everyone has the same amount of points to spend. The balance issues are really just because you have casters who can put everything in one stat. That's a problem with the game design, not the point buy.
Kirth, I love you and all, but I think that your argument against point buy is crap. Now in the name of fairness I'll explain why.
I simply do not think that that extra +1 is worth the 7 extra points that it costs to bring a 16 to an 18 in point buy. I just don't. Literally non of my spellcasters (or anyone, really) begins with a natural 18 in any statistic when playing standard (15) point buy.
Do you only need one ability score to do all your class stuff? Sure. Do you only want one ability score? No. An 18 Int (or anything) costs 17 points by itself. That means that that with the most conservative array I'd be looking at: 18, 10, 10, 10, 10, 8. Sorry, I like things like Hp and saving throws and stuff. >_>
16 base is the highest I'll go, because I just don't agree that a mere +1 is worth the extra effort. I'm actually more likely to have an 18 base casting stat if I'm rolling, because I'm just going to put the highest thing I roll in that, which is probably at least a 16 (which I would have had anyway) or it might be higher (because if I roll a 17-18) which is actually pretty likely if using the various popular rolling methods (4d6, drop lowest, or 2d6+6, etc).
Hell, if I get ability scores I don't like on a roll, I can just let the character die and try again. It's not like that isn't something that has been done through the ages. Don't get the character you want? Scrap it. Roll your crap-shoot until you've got just what you want. Or play point buy, where you're going to get just what you invest.
For the record, I have 0% problems playing martial characters in Pathfinder on 15 PB. Rangers, Barbarians, and Paladins? Oh yeah, gimme some of that. Yes, they will have some dump stats, but then so will my mages (usually the same amount). I'll do fine. I'm playing in a game on Fridays and I'd dare say that my PC is arguably the strongest in the party (I'm a caster) and she didn't buy an 18. I had better things to spend those extra 7 points on than a +1 to her save DCs. >_>
Hell on some casters I don't even care about having more than some minimums on casting. If I'm playing a Cleric I'm probably not even going to have a 16 starting Wisdom (more like a 13 honestly), unless I happen to roll something higher.
EDIT: 7, 12, 12, 18, 12, 7 might be alright. But that's probably the only 18 point build I'd consider for a wizard and even then I'm not sure I care that much about that extra +1. The only difference is that I'd hit Int 36 instead of 34 by 20th level. The only difference between those is +1 5th and 9th level spell. I really only need just so many time stops in a day.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
My experience is that 2d6+6 should be the standard for rolling, it sets the minimum stat at 8, which is about as low as non minmaxers are willing to go anyway.
Er, not that I have issue with all of the insightful and convincing arguments you've made, but...
I don't think that means what you think it means.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
People still think point-buy is "totally fair": one last try.
You and Bob have the same job qualifications and experience.
I pay you $70,000/year.
I pay Bob $70,000/year.What could be more fair?
Never mind that we're putting Bob's payment in the form of stock options in a sheltered offshore account and the company CPA (not me!) provides him with some legal loopholes so that he doesn't have to pay taxes on it. The company also provides him with a house and a car, but HR handles that part, so it has absolutely nothing to do with me (wink, wink). HR has also managed to get him free health insurance, even though you have to pay full price for yours. You pay full federal, state, and local taxes and don't get a house or car.
And, to your mind, this is "the very definition of fair."
As I alluded, Ayn Rand would probably agree with you, but I don't.I'm... afraid I don't really follow this comparison? To me, it sounds more like you're rolling but then you're letting your best friend fudge the rolls. Which would be terrible and I'm working under the assumption that nobody here is doing that.
You can't cheat point-buy. Everyone has the same amount of points to spend. The balance issues are really just because you have casters who can put everything in one stat. That's a problem with the game design, not the point buy.
I think his point was that saying "Everyone has the same number of points to spend, therefore it's fair" is like saying "Everyone has the same salary, therefore it's fair" when, in fact, there are many more elements of character generation (working conditions) than just attributes (salary) which determine how "well off" you are.
You and Bob havent been treated fairly despite having the same salary. The guy who always plays a monk and the wizard-phile havent been treated fairly despite having the same number of points to buy their attributes.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
That's the fault of the job, not the salary. >_>
That's a fault of the class, not the stat generation. <_<
Y'know, the whole "casters focusing on one stat" thing can be fixed by a gm that hates casters >.>
That guy who always plays wizards is going to stop dumping everything for Int very quickly once you start targeting his Fortitude save...
Randians are funny to me because they're typically the antagonists in her books
The only thing Ayn Rand hated more than someone who cares about the poor was a crony capitalist.
But that's a different subject entirely.
My experience is that 2d6+6 should be the standard for rolling, it sets the minimum stat at 8, which is about as low as non minmaxers are willing to go anyway.Er, not that I have issue with all of the insightful and convincing arguments you've made, but...
I don't think that means what you think it means.
There's a non missing in there.
|
I think point buy is the standard because its easy to put together a game that way. It is fair in that everyone gets the same choices and could make the exact same thing. Dice rolling is based on luck and as such there will be an imbalance between the characters.
Now I happen to like both ways. I just think rolling only works with a group of friends whom you know won't have an issue with stat disparities.
The upsides to each for me are:
Point buy lets players write up their characters beforehand and everyone can come to the first session ready to go. It also allows players complete control over what they want to be.
Rolling is a faster way to create a character. The array of stats luck gives you suggest one character type or another. You don't have to spend any time agonizing over stat distribution, you're just figuring out what to do with the numbers given to you. If you don't have time outside of the game to come up with characters, then I prefer this system to point buy.
I think point buy is the standard because its easy to put together a game that way. It is fair in that everyone gets the same choices and could make the exact same thing. Dice rolling is based on luck and as such there will be an imbalance between the characters.
Now I happen to like both ways. I just think rolling only works with a group of friends whom you know won't have an issue with stat disparities.The upsides to each for me are:
Point buy lets players write up their characters beforehand and everyone can come to the first session ready to go. It also allows players complete control over what they want to be.
Rolling is a faster way to create a character. The array of stats luck gives you suggest one character type or another. You don't have to spend any time agonizing over stat distribution, you're just figuring out what to do with the numbers given to you. If you don't have time outside of the game to come up with characters, then I prefer this system to point buy.
Point Buying is not the standard.
It is for PFS which is the single largest population of Pathfinder gamers.
Says who?
Did we take a census?
It is for PFS which is the single largest population of Pathfinder gamers.Says who?
Did we take a census?Sales says who. You want to find the lowest selling group of Pathfinder books? It'll be the ones that have absolutely no use for PFS players, such as the GameMastery Guide.
Even if it wasn't it still wouldn't change the fact that Point Buy IS one of the standard methods of character generation because it's in the damm Core Rule Book. Or are we going to be that selective of RAW?
So there are more players than DMs?
Do you even have those sales figures or are you making false claims of statistics to back a false claim based on conjecture manifested by your own limited scope of the business as a whole skewed in your favor so you can make a point?| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
1) I can see why a person would ditch a whole game because of the idea of stat rolling in order. I would probably pass the game too. Why? Because I hate playing anything that has his turn consist of "I charge. Now I full attack" I prefer playing classes like Alchemists, Inquisitors, rogues, and mages (usually sorcerer and oracle). With classes like that, you need a very specific set of attributes (high Dex, high cha, high int). With rolls like roll in line, you can very easily end up with "fighter" stats, which i hate because I just do not find enjoyment in classes like the Paladin, Barbarian, and fighter.
Oh and Fluttershy is still best pony. RD is second :P
What are "fighter" stats? A fighter benefits from a few good scores. So do rogues, alchemists, and inquisitors.
And what's wrong with playing a wizard with his "points" somewhat spread out? Not everyone should have to be invincible to enjoy the group, which comes back to my "this is only a problem in a crappy group" belief.
So there are more players than DMs?It is for PFS which is the single largest population of Pathfinder gamers.Says who?
Did we take a census?Sales says who. You want to find the lowest selling group of Pathfinder books? It'll be the ones that have absolutely no use for PFS players, such as the GameMastery Guide.
Even if it wasn't it still wouldn't change the fact that Point Buy IS one of the standard methods of character generation because it's in the damm Core Rule Book. Or are we going to be that selective of RAW?
More like PFS DMs have no use for a guide that is mostly dedicated to helping you supplement your campaign, but yeah, that's true, too. ;D
I've done a lot of playing in various online groups and various offline groups. By far the most common method of generation I've found has been point buy. Not even always standard point buy, but some measure of point buy. Point Buy variations I've seen have usually allotted smaller point buys for playing races that should have a level adjustment from 1st level.
My own group was the last group that used rolling that I played with, and we dropped that quite a while back since it was adding nothing to our games. No one in my group has missed it. They like building the character that they want to play, knowing they can make the character even if there are no witnesses around to watch their rolls (which makes preparing for games waaaaaay more convenient since we can just make our mechanical side of our characters mostly in our lonesome, discuss plot/background/personality/other roleplaying stuff before the game through skype or over the phone, and then actually play on the day one of us is going to GM without having to make our characters on the spot).
Anecdotal? You betcha. True experiences? Wholly.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That's a fault of the class, not the stat generation. <_<
Perhaps. Alternatively, given the classes are unbalanced, using a pointbuy method isnt fair. *shrug* I dont think either is necessarily more foundational.
I dont really care (I dont think it's about fairness, balance or anything else, I think everyone should just do whatever the hell they like). I was just explaining the point of the analogy as I saw it.