Its not that they dont want to bring him back, they are worried something bad could happen to.the main npc they need to escort
leo: I'm assuming the bad guys are semi-competent (like all villains who fail to simply use magic to find the PCs & kill them while they're still low level). They have scrying that can tell roughly where you're using your artefact. They can teleport, but they're not going to have a team of elite high-CR commando demons on alert 24 hours a day. So a scryer picks up a signal, perhaps they get a vision of snow and ice, and then they gather some powerful assassins (which might take a few days) and send them into the right approximate area. They spread out to search, and the party manages to avoid some but not all of them.
I don't think they average player will really question it.
Its not that they dont want to bring him back, they are worried something bad could happen to.the main npc they need to escort
Ameiko, as I ran her, would be willing to risk using the seal.
Its not that they dont want to bring him back, they are worried something bad could happen to.the main npc they need to escortAmeiko, as I ran her, would be willing to risk using the seal.
Same here, from what i have seen of Ameiko both in RotRL (which i run) and in Jade Regent (which i play in), she would risk it unless the character in question was total scum.
leo: I'm assuming the bad guys are semi-competent (like all villains who fail to simply use magic to find the PCs & kill them while they're still low level). They have scrying that can tell roughly where you're using your artefact. They can teleport, but they're not going to have a team of elite high-CR commando demons on alert 24 hours a day. So a scryer picks up a signal, perhaps they get a vision of snow and ice, and then they gather some powerful assassins (which might take a few days) and send them into the right approximate area. They spread out to search, and the party manages to avoid some but not all of them.
I don't think they average player will really question it.
And that is incompetance in my opinion.
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Even when said character talks down to the npcs and literally gives them attitude? I understand many believe I am being possibly very biased, but as the personality of th.npcs there has been a number of incidences to lead me to this point, it was not just an isolated incident
Your player need to embrace the story and remember that from hardship comes great heroics. To be, for examble a former asimar paladin now reincarnnated as a goblin is a great oppotunity for a great history. Tell your player to stop sulking and accept the reincarnate, or he can play Solitare on his PC monday evenings until the others decide to res him.
It may seem hare but going along with the story is important.
Edit: hard not hare.
Just mentioning, aasimars can't be reincarnated. ;)
Resurrection in my games is the exception rather than the rule. I leave it up to the survivors and their budget. If a player is going to be characterless for more than an hour or so, real time, I will get them to stat up a susuitable replacement. I certainly don't give then extra benefits for having lost a character.
This seems to give my players an appreciation of the dangers of the gameworld, and a proper appreciation of the need to have friends who are willing to go the extra mile for them.
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Even when said character talks down to the npcs and literally gives them attitude? I understand many believe I am being possibly very biased, but as the personality of th.npcs there has been a number of incidences to lead me to this point, it was not just an isolated incident
I get the problem but if you have a problem with the player/pc, discuss it with him personally. Don't take it out on the character in an indirect, maybe even kinda petty way. Be mature, discuss your problems with his min maxing and lack of roleplaying as adults!
.... and don't invite him to future campaigns if your playstyles have irreconcilable differences
U did fine OP. His character died and has a chance to come back. He even gets to have the choice if he wants to reincarnated or not. He even gets to play a npc until they get to an area to where they can raise back to life as the same person. He gets to continue playing and gets to decide the fate of his character.
I don't see the problem.
Well, if he refuses to die, maybe he comes back as a ghost or some such. :-)
At least until laid to rest or raised/reincarnated.
/cevah
Well, if he refuses to die, maybe he comes back as a ghost or some such. :-)
At least until laid to rest or raised/reincarnated.
/cevah
Hahaha outside the extra work this would require , this would actually be a nice idea :P.
I agree that it's inappropriate for your player to be so demanding.
Harrowing Spoiler:
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Just mentioning, aasimars can't be reincarnated. ;)
They absolutely can. They have the Native Subtype.
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I would never be so demanding as a player. What kind of nerve does it take to tell a DM what treasure he should provide? I do think the other players are being jerks for declining to resurrect, but I see no reason for you to bend over backwards for this guy. The other players have spoken. It's their game too. Caving sets a poor precedent.
Like others, I notice your obvious bias. It's just that I'm not bothered by it. I have a bias against obstinate jerk-offs too! Keep the integrity of your game. Offer the obvious front runner options that have come out of this thread that you're comfortable with The rest is up to him.
I would personally ignore any arguments that suggest your ultimate duty is to make sure everyone has fun, as if it trumps all other concerns. What a hackneyed sentiment! Each partipant shares that responsibility, and the precise meaning of it depends on the group. Happy gaming!
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You could leave a custom cursed scroll of Raise Dead in some treasure.
Let it be obvious that it is cursed.
Allow it to work as intended, but give the raised creature one of the Oracle Curses, randomly, with no bonuses from it.
This gives the player another option, but not a freebie.
If this doesn't satisfy, then nothing will.
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I'm sorry but this is silly.
The entire point of the artifact is to allow players to be brought back to life. Yes, it means there might be some opposition from the Oni, but frankly that's just more story points.
As the GM, I'd have Ameiko or one of the other NPCs just activate the thing and bring the character back to life. The NPCs shouldn't just sit idly by quietly abiding by every decision the players make. Your player will be grateful and you get a great story hook as the adventure continues.
I like the suggestion of allowing the party to sell the dead players possessions towards purchasing the diamond. "You sold all of my stuff?," the character exclaims standing in the nude. "Yes, but now you're alive so it's all good,' replies his party confused as to the problem.
You could potentially plant a traitor in the caravan that works for whatever baddies are in the game, doing so only because he knows his buddies will come to get the players, disregarding (or not knowing) the fact that it will bring back the player.
Could loan him a resurrection from some sort of cleric. Then if he fails to pay in any way, the parties made more enemies and has either more attackers or less help in town.
Haven't played Jade Regent so I'm unsure if these are even feasible options.
Those are all good suggestions. Thank you.
@Third Mind
No they aren't, the party is in the middle of nowhere and until they hit level 9 they have no hope of leaving.
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And that is incompetance in my opinion.
Well, you can always make the bad guys more competent. They can set up a team of scryers working day and night in shifts for months to find the PCs. And at the first hint of a location, they can teleport in all the bosses from the final two books to attack while the party are sleeping. A few scrolls of Wish should be well within their budget, just to make sure a TPK is absolutely guaranteed.
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@OP.
You want to stress the story part of the RPG. But did his death add to the story or was it just a random event ?
A PC's death is a very big thing IMO, especially for the player. It should be used to strengthen the story.
I advise that you talk with the player about all this : both your own feelings and his and find out how you can compromise in a way that benefits you both.
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Different players have different expectations when it comes to death in the game. As per the RAW i personally think death is way to easy to overcome in Pathfinder.
That being said, I think it is important to come to an agreement on how to handle such issues before a Campaign starts. Some players like the danger and drama that permanent death brings to the table. Others just want to feel cool and kick butt without being worried about losing their character.
In my Jade regent Campaign I decided that the seal had a will of its own and could trigger its powers without anyone activating it. If that doesn't work you could always try to retcon the characters death and say that he was only grievously injured instead and give him a penalty as if he would have been raised from the dead or something similar.
And that is incompetance in my opinion.Well, you can always make the bad guys more competent. They can set up a team of scryers working day and night in shifts for months to find the PCs. And at the first hint of a location, they can teleport in all the bosses from the final two books to attack while the party are sleeping. A few scrolls of Wish should be well within their budget, just to make sure a TPK is absolutely guaranteed.
Exactly.
That's why i think that the whole "the oni know it when they open the seal" thing is bad for the story because you either have incompetent enemies or you have TPK.
Be prepared - or find yourself dead.
A fighter without a fly potion or 5, or a bow is a stupid fighter when dragons come calling.
A party without a universal Get out of jail free card medicine cabinet is a stupid party.
Time after time I find PC's ill prepared for what they may face and it always ends in death. You see that shiny new weapon enhancement or magic item you purchased is great... until you have to fight something you're not prepared for. Club together and buy some bloody scrolls and potions for pity's sake! Even if you need to make caster level checks to use them.
And that is incompetance in my opinion.Well, you can always make the bad guys more competent. They can set up a team of scryers working day and night in shifts for months to find the PCs. And at the first hint of a location, they can teleport in all the bosses from the final two books to attack while the party are sleeping. A few scrolls of Wish should be well within their budget, just to make sure a TPK is absolutely guaranteed.Exactly.
That's why i think that the whole "the oni know it when they open the seal" thing is bad for the story because you either have incompetent enemies or you have TPK.
As a random side note, I fixed this problem by substantially increasing the anti-teleportation effect of any seal that isn't with the others (had to add the "with the others" part because otherwise the seals from the castle would have been interfering with teleports in Kasai).
I came into this thread thinking that there was a character you wanted to kill but just couldn't no matter how hard you tried.
Same here. Damm reincarnating druids, gets to roll 2 firkin times... prestige class gives him another automatic reincarnate.... So hard to kill of
That's why i think that the whole "the oni know it when they open the seal" thing is bad for the story because you either have incompetent enemies or you have TPK.
Perhaps, but even without the seal, I don't see what's to prevent the bad guys investigating what happened to their allies in books 1-2 (using Speak With Dead if the PCs somehow wiped out all possible witnesses), then using conventional scrying based on physical descriptions and/or names.
You have to make some assumptions like, "the villains are so arrogant they fail to take the PCs seriously" or "the villains are struggling against one another for power and fail to co-operate" or "the villains have limited access to high level magic" for it to make sense.
That player will be grateful (maybe), and the rest of the players will feel that their decisions mean nothing.I'm sorry but this is silly.
** spoiler omitted **
Ehm their decisions on whether to use the seal or not really mean nothing.
That's why i think that the whole "the oni know it when they open the seal" thing is bad for the story because you either have incompetent enemies or you have TPK.Perhaps, but even without the seal, I don't see what's to prevent the bad guys investigating what happened to their allies in books 1-2 (using Speak With Dead if the PCs somehow wiped out all possible witnesses), then using conventional scrying based on physical descriptions and/or names.
You have to make some assumptions like, "the villains are so arrogant they fail to take the PCs seriously" or "the villains are struggling against one another for power and fail to co-operate" or "the villains have limited access to high level magic" for it to make sense.
That would be somewhat more difficult but you are correct and you are reinforcing my opinion that the story of Jade Regent has holes (big ones) and needs quite a bit of patching up.
As a random side note, I fixed this problem by substantially increasing the anti-teleportation effect of any seal that isn't with the others (had to add the "with the others" part because otherwise the seals from the castle would have been interfering with teleports in Kasai).And that is incompetance in my opinion.Well, you can always make the bad guys more competent. They can set up a team of scryers working day and night in shifts for months to find the PCs. And at the first hint of a location, they can teleport in all the bosses from the final two books to attack while the party are sleeping. A few scrolls of Wish should be well within their budget, just to make sure a TPK is absolutely guaranteed.Exactly.
That's why i think that the whole "the oni know it when they open the seal" thing is bad for the story because you either have incompetent enemies or you have TPK.
Can you elaborate on that? i am not sure i get it, but please put in a spoiler tag so that we don't threadjack (a lot).
OoooOoohh... Shattered Star has the best option in the world for reincarnation, one that would have made your group sorry they joked.I came into this thread thinking that there was a character you wanted to kill but just couldn't no matter how hard you tried.
On topic, I had a natural attacker build for Shattered Star and the table joked about reincarnating him after he died. I wasn't terribly amused, but I argued that since I would lose all my normal functions in combat they wouldn't want to do that since they needed my help.
Maybe the group thinks they can get away without using his character's support? Is the game that easy? There's a companion in need and they just sort of shrug?
I wouldn't want an in-game group with such apathy.
It was too late by then, as it had already been used up. So none of that for me. :-(
Its not that they dont want to bring him back, they are worried something bad could happen to.the main npc they need to escort
Then ask said NPC if it's worth the risk, and solve it in-game.
The thing is, I'm sure using it in any capacity, not just the res, would alert the enemies, right?
So they have an artifact that they are told basically not to use, but has things it can be used for. Then... why have it do those things?
These guys have to trust that you, the GM, are not going to full-force murder them just for using the tools given to them. Besides, it's an adventure, some measures of danger should be acceptable given the circumstances.
If they don't res him now, but need to use the artifact for something else later, would they then regret not bringing his character back? I mean, if they have to use it either way, wouldn't it have been better to bring back a companion?
I'm a little confused about this party. Being afraid to use the artifact seems a little odd three books in.
Sandpoint is a small Varisian town. When a person gets sick and dies in Sandpoint, they are dead. They are taken to the cemetery and buried. The concept of raise dead and reincarnation should be relatively foreign concepts to a bunch of people from this town. Being given an Amatatsu seal that can bring a person back to life should be something rare, not some item with limited charges.
Watching a companion die should be a devastating traumatic event. This person was a childhood friend, mentor, or rival.
In the game I ran the first character death happened against the Witchfire in book 3. The players had never opened the box before now since they had realized opening the box drew attention to their location. With some great rp as they mourned their friend who had died in battle, one of them remembered the power of the seal. An NPC reminded them that the seal goes inert for about a month and the seal draws the gaze of the oni. The player with the seal without hesitation basically said 'damn the torpedos' and used the seal. It was a great moment in the campaign.
This is what happens when your players are rping correctly. They should not be thinking about diamond dust or finding a lvl 9 cleric. The players may suspect or metagame about gms and challenge ratings and random encounters, but the characters they are playing don't know hat. The characters should realize that they have no way to know that there is someone out there with diamond dust, the ability to raise their friend, and the willingness to raise their friend. As far as they know, dead is dead. Except they have this seal. If anything, they should be using it to make sure it does what they think it does.
Once they have used the seal, it's inert, and someone dies again, then you can start getting creative about monsters dropping diamond dust or friendly NPCs walking by with a raise dead scroll.
Just sit down you players and ask them "Okay, waiting for a rez is what you would do, but what would your character do? Would your character really shop around to save a friend they have traveled with since Sandpoint? That you probably owe your life to? And how do you think the dead guy is going to feel when you rez him days later when you had an insta rez in your pocket?"
just let him roll a new character at the same level as the party
another idea
just Ditch XP, it penalizes the player whom was sick for one session or had to work.
Part of the game is being able to die. The threat of death is important, it is there, it is intended to be there, and it is supposed to be a real threat.
Your PCs think dead is dead unless they have heard of legends of people coming back from beyond the grave. To them the artifact breaks the rules of life and death until they know otherwise.
The Player in question can play an NPC, if he has NPC gold and only NPC levels then he should be two NPC levels ahead of the PCs to equal out his CR with their individual CRs. That should make him happy. He isn't gimping the party, and he can sort of hold his own.
If the party is too cowardly to use the artifact then they are not real adventurers. If they do not gentle repose the corpse then it will rot and Raise Dead will not work on it if I recall.
One "cheap and dirty" tactic is to have an item that can revive the character drop, but it come out of the gold that they would get for the level--but I don't know how you manage money in your game, I tend to control my tightly.
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I sympathise with the player of dead character. I would much rather create a new character than find my original character concept has been screwed by the random roll of a Reincarnation. When I create and play a character I want to control what that character is, that's why I play.
If the player can't get a Raise Dead, doesn't want a Reincarnation (and I wouldn't) and isn't allowed to create a new character, I'd say he has a right to feel aggrieved. I might take up the offer of playing an NPC as long as the NPC was interesting enough and in doing so I was guaranteed a Raise/new character without further XP penalty.
The fact that you imply that you have an issue with his current character speaks volumes to me.
Pathfinder and AD&D have always been games where death is just an inconvenience to the player. New characters, resurrections and so on have always been part and parcel of the PC expectation (Reincarnation has always been the dog turd in the pile). If you take away those options you are approaching 'No not Black Leaf!' territory.
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This is why it's important to not be a jerk. If playing your character annoys or offends the PCs and NPCs around him, they may be more relieved than sad that he's gone. If so, instead of prolonging the agony, the players should explain to the culprit how he's not getting brought back because of the consequences of how he RP'd, and (if true) that he's welcome to end his one-man strike protest whenever he wants to rejoin the game within the strictures provided.
This is why it's important to not be a jerk. If playing your character annoys or offends the PCs and NPCs around him, they may be more relieved than sad that he's gone. If so, instead of prolonging the agony, the players should explain to the culprit how he's not getting brought back because of the consequences of how he RP'd, and (if true) that he's welcome to end his one-man strike protest whenever he wants to rejoin the game within the strictures provided.
Aye. Also, part of entering into a game is entering into a social contract. Respecting that contract, and other players, is important.
Respecting that contract does not equate: "I get what I want all the time, and can tell the GM what to do."
It does equate making compromises.
While I sympathize with the player, it's also only to the degree until he begins attempting to dictate to everyone else.
Social contract trumps play style.
At this point, he's an OOC problem and needs handled in that realm.
The issue has been resolved. Thank you everyone for the input. And so we are clear it wasn't strictly me having issue with the character, mainly the entire party thought the character was a D*ck.
The issue has been resolved. Thank you everyone for the input. And so we are clear it wasn't strictly me having issue with the character, mainly the entire party thought the character was a D*ck.
So, how did you resolve it?
Yes how was it resolved?
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Absolutely horrible!I hope I don't have to wait until the next broadcast to find out what happened. I so hate ending on a cliffhanger. "To be continued " the worst phrase ever!Worse yet is when there is a cliffhanger... and then the show doesn't get renewed or a follow up book is never published.
Indeed... endings like this bring "Heroes" or "Alphas" to mind... Grrr! For unresolved stories!
Now as for the original post, no player is above the group and if one player is too pushy, demanding or disruptive, they need to be reminded in no uncertain terms that another option exists for them and their character, and it involves them exiting the group.
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While the player does seem somewhat entitled (which is a problem all in it's own), I can understand the issues with reincarnate. For a character that's based around mental stats, the spell can be a boon, and at worst a minor inconvenience. For a martial type, it can completely destroy their effectiveness in combat (imagine a natural weapons based character being reincarnated into a human... whoops, suddenly 90% of your feats/items/abilites are unusable ! Yay!).
I'd say this is when the GM roles a couple times, or gives the players some options that fit the character better but that have some sort of trade off. In the claws case, you give the player the chance to come back as a changeling. On one hand you have claws, on the other hand your big bad fighter now looks like a adolescent girl. Oh, and the mummy you didn't previously have is looking for you.
Perhaps you and the player, while talking it out come up with something (and ret-con something for the halfling now half-orc witch to be fair) equally interesting.