I'd love to know that, too. My group just made level three today and are still some weeks off from attaining their first tier and completing book one. Since some people are obviously deep in book two already, it'd be interesting to hear how mythic really plays. Are regular opponents still challenging the group or do mythic powers make them trivial?
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They have tackled one area with them so far in mine. I will say it definitely ups the power level quite a bit and what they can handle. Going to spoiler it since it includes some:
These are the highlights and characters as far as the mythic powers are concerned:
Corliss (Tiefling Paladin/Champion of Ragathiel): Corliss caught me off guard honestly. I had expected her to be using a lot of Fleet Charge, which wasn't the case. She used mythic power to cast Mythic Protection from Evil (meaning the babau couldn't touch her and a +4 to Saves/AC) and 4 for Mythic Smite (allowing her up to using smite 6 times in total in there). She was wicked and scared me.
Samael (Aasimar Summoner/Archmage/Hierophant of Ragathiel): Samael's uses weren't quite as awe inspiring as Corliss but turned the tide of battle when he used the archmage ability Wild Arcana to cast Create Pit which trapped the two ghoul clerics for 8 rounds. He used most of the rest for Beast's Fury to let his eidolon get extra/full attacks and rip the poor buggers into pieces.
Msimangu (Dhampir Monk/Trickster of Korada): Msimangu mostly used surges (mostly on attacks, couple on saving throws) and surprise strike for his. He already got a large number of attacks before and combined with wall running he was poking at the ghouls in the pit without being in any real danger. Plus it made for a pretty cool visual.
Mattias (Aasimar Cleric/Guardian/Hierophant of Vildeis): Mattias mostly filled support though did it extremely well. He didn't spend many mythic points, but his mythic tiers (and trait) gave him an ungodly amount of hit points. The two points he did spend were to cast Remove Paralysis through Inspired Spell which saved a few people from getting slaughtered when the ghouls got lucky hits and they had unlucky saves. The other big bonus he has from mythic is Faith's Reach which let him cure from 30 feet away (combined with Healer's Blessing) and even with his reduced speed could be wherever he needed to be during the fight.
As for pros and cons...
Pros:
- Major versatility. The casters had access to their entire spell lists which lets them adapt as the situations needed (create pit, remove paralysis, etc)...at least while the mythic points are there anyway.
- Scary Paladin. She used smite six times during those encounters. O.O
- Coolness. The monk was running across walls throwing shurikens into undead faces.
Cons:
- More to keep track of. More numbers, more abilities, etc. Some could easily count this as a pro to be fair, but as a DM it is more rules to work with and does take some effort.
- CR is harder to determine imo (mostly due to the improved versatility mentioned above and not being ready for six paladin smites heh, which was my fault not the players I'll add).
That's all that came to mind for the moment. Probably things I'm forgetting though.
Thanks, that already gives important information. It'll be interesting to see what people say when they get deeper into the AP and have more mythic tiers than the first to deal with.
They have tackled one area with them so far in mine. I will say it definitely ups the power level quite a bit and what they can handle. Going to spoiler it since it includes some:
** spoiler omitted **...
Thanks for the detailed report. I think this is a useful thread for future GMs especially to figure out how to handle mythic play.
Would like to know how mythic plays when the players have to worry more about conserving their mythic power. The journey in Book 2 I think would tend to favor going nova on mythic power, given the shorter adventuring days.
Corliss still had one she had saved and used it for another smite once she realized how powerful the nabasu actually was. Msimangu and Sam were both out of mythic power I believe (Sam might have had one). Mattias had only used two during the first portion which ended up working in their favour after the nabasu opened up with mass hold person and nailed three people (one cohort (Zale - mongrelfolk that joined them and they kept around), one ally (they brought along Aron after helping him through his drug problem and were giving him something to take his mind off it), Msimangu) and he spent two rounds getting everyone un-paralyzed since they were pretty spread out.
I think Msimangu and Samael probably learned to be a bit more conservative with it afterwards in case there are more encounters. With that said, they did win in a great deal due to Corliss engaging and in general being a hero...which worked out since she took him to 0 (and as the paladin wielding Radiance this was a chapel to Ragathiel so the effect afterward was pretty awesome).
On the not so bright side, they have to figure out and deal with the fact two party members are inflicted with ghoul fever still too...heh
Our group just finished Chapter One and are starting Chapter Two this Saturday. I believe in the mythic rule set, but I am going to see it in action first hand.
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I forgot to list something important for Samael (the summoner) in mine...
It actually circumvented one nasty encounter where an incubus teleports to attack the party in the dead of the night. He got a surprise when the Eidolon pounced him first round, followed by the paladin Corliss smiting since she also happened to be on watch.
Some spoilers for Book 2:
That said, I was able to sufficiently challenge the party in that instance with some template slapping on the lesser ghouls is all. Knew the party well enough to know the lesser ghouls would have trouble doing much or even hitting so I adjusted here. By the end of all the fights a couple had got very close to dropping and more importantly, they had spent nearly all their resources by that last fight, especially mythic points.
Once they hit the gibbering swarm, it can range extremely depending on party composition and the tactics used. This area can easily turn into a wipe and should be a good challenge for most though! If they just charge in, they're likely to end up pretty beat up if not dead. I will admit my party destroyed this area, but they spent an hour planning it out in excruciating detail and tackled it in a really clever way.
They've since made it to Drezen and encountered the Berbalang. I wouldn't count it as a particularly hard fight, but by the end half the party had lost some constitution (fixed up easily, but spent resources doing so) and a few almost ate coup de graces (mythic cleric saved the day and they killed it before it managed to coup de grace said mythic cleric when it realized he was an issue). Very close to some potential knock outs or deaths there so I'd say it's well laid out for the most part.
So far most of the encounters haven't been too difficult for my group, though they have had to use their mythic power on a regular basis. The mythic chimera fight was pretty rough for them, though. There's 6 PCs so I gave Soltengrebbe 50 extra HP. The party wizard cast slow on it after the first round so it was limited to just one attack a round, but it still managed to drop 2 PCs into negative hit points with its breath weapon and Mythic Vital Strikes.
I'm not running a WOTR game, but I am running a Mythic Kingmaker game so my 2cp there. For reference my PCs are level 12/mythic 2.
There are a lot the PCs can do that can catch a GM off guard. Casters can pull out spells they normally can't/don't cast or know, ramp up their DCs, and otherwise pull unexpected tricks. Martials can get sudden extra movement, extra attacks, and so forth. Everyone can surge to beat ACs or DCs you thought they'd just barely missed, turning a crucial failure into a necessary success. It feels very dramatic, very climactic, and it's not something the PCs can simply burn constantly - there's an obvious weighing of worth of how much they can afford to use their limited resources to pull off something fantastic, and when it's more worth it to just accept the fail.
I haven't done much about mythic-fying most enemies, myself, but I'm working that into the next bit they're up against (we just started Varnhold Vanishing).
Speaking from the OTHER side of the fence, while I've not (yet) given my PCs Mythic, I HAVE enhanced a couple of the enemies with Mythic. It can be quite useful, especially with a critter whose damage resistance is now Mythic in nature (ie, magic weapons don't penetrate it). The extra attack or modified spell can also be most useful. (And having seen the extra attack in use, I have to say that Paizo's decision to nerf the Archmage Path so that spellcasting isn't a Swift Action was the right thing to do. Especially as otherwise it negates any need for the Swift Spell feat and Metamagic Rods.)
I am about 2/3rds through Chapter Two. I have to be sensitive because my GM and fellow players read the boards too.
So far, I am concerned about the challenge level. It has seemed a little easy. No one has really needed... (spoilers about items)
On the other hand, there are some GM style decisions which may factor in. I don't care to get into those publicly and there not huge anyway.
In terms of complexity, I am playing an inquisitor and combined with mythic that is a class with a helluva lot of moving parts. And alledgedly I know what I'm doing! I got more "once per day" doodads than I can keep up with. I've vowed make 3 x 5 cards for them. That's okay, because we're doing fine, but that is an observation.
Disclaimer: Four players, all divine, 20 point buy. Somebody in charge might want to know. I've always ran a 20 point game(I'm playing in this one), but have always experienced power creep. I plan on a strict 15 point buy never time to measure the effect.
Do your players use the additional 5 points to min-max or to round out their characters, Jim?
About at the same point here. The mass combats I got the feeling were meant to be fast and easy for the most part unless they get notoriously unlucky rolls. Otherwise I would say I've only had to do minor tweaking to keep the party challenged. I suspect 20 point vs 15 point would play a part too (I kept them at 15 since it is recommended and wanted to see how an adventure path stacks up if you play it as it was designed for the most part).
I suspect it also has to do with the experience of the players and how optimized they are. I do admit I nerfed our summoner a bit (his spell list and the levels he gets a few certain spells like haste and black tentacles being a level higher for the most part), but my players are still relatively new overall (only been playing a little over a year now) which seems to be working well so far.
Do your players use the additional 5 points to min-max or to round out their characters, Jim?
Just a clarification, I am a player in Wrath of the Righteous.
Yes, I wrote Chapter Three, but I will play dumb. The other players take the lead. I know the overall plot but I have not read the other chapters line by line or studied specific encounters.
I can't answer that because I wasn't privy to their builds. I know MY ability scores are fairly balanced (not one score less than 11).
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OH! Yeah.. I mentioned that I usually allow 20 points didn't I? That might be what you're asking about. Yes, I make them play 1st level with 15 points, and then at 2nd level I gave them 5 more points to distribute (not on a 1 for 1 basis, but to spend as per character generation). I received a lot of concerns about MAD and I was trying to be sympathetic. The idea was that they would build more balanced characters. I think it mostly worked, in that the characters are more balanced, but the encounters are still too easy. With James's strong advocacy of 15 point builds, I plan to stick to that next time. However I don't change the rules of a campaign in mid-stream. Instead I make the existing encounters harder. I want to diminish my need to do that because my free time is at a premium too.
OH! Yeah.. I mentioned that I usually allow 20 points didn't I? That might be what you're asking about. Yes, I make them play 1st level with 15 points, and then at 2nd level I gave them 5 more points to distribute (not on a 1 for 1 basis, but to spend as per character generation). I received a lot of concerns about MAD and I was trying to be sympathetic. The idea was that they would build more balanced characters. I think it mostly worked, in that the characters are more balanced, but the encounters are still too easy. With James's strong advocacy of 15 point builds, I plan to stick to that next time. However I don't change the rules of a campaign in mid-stream. Instead I make the existing encounters harder. I want to diminish my need to do that because my free time is at a premium too.
Question for you. How do you handle the following?
PFS game, so it is a 20 point build, but the stats are: Str 20, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 7, Cha 7 for a half-orc barbarian.Even if you bring it down to a 15 point build the stats are: Str 18, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 7, Cha 7.
-- david
Might be a good idea David! I will look into that. I admit that I never thought to say, "Apply all of your racial modifiers before you spend one single point." I've just said, "There are your points, spend away." So I don't know if that has come played a factor. They all use HeroLab.
I probably sound like the wishy-washy freelancer because I admit to mistakes and that sometimes I don't have all the answers. I'm just very open minded about continuing to learn my craft. The community teaches me a lot.
OH! Yeah.. I mentioned that I usually allow 20 points didn't I? That might be what you're asking about.
It was indeed. ^^
Yes, I make them play 1st level with 15 points, and then at 2nd level I gave them 5 more points to distribute (not on a 1 for 1 basis, but to spend as per character generation). I received a lot of concerns about MAD and I was trying to be sympathetic. The idea was that they would build more balanced characters. I think it mostly worked, in that the characters are more balanced, but the encounters are still too easy. With James's strong advocacy of 15 point builds, I plan to stick to that next time. However I don't change the rules of a campaign in mid-stream. Instead I make the existing encounters harder. I want to diminish my need to do that because my free time is at a premium too.
Don't I know, I got six players and need to rewrite everything accordingly. They still seem to have it too easy at the tail end of the first module and I already subbed out all Tiefling with Dretches and put 50% more enemies into every encounter where the enemy stayed the same. Making for quite cramped combat environments, I must say. ^^
Anyway, I still think that, if you make sure that the extra 5 points don't go into their main stat to min-max, those points only round out the character in a secondary area. I don't know if that really improves their power-level so substantially, although it will probably mean one more armor class or hitpoint per level. 15 points seem to lead more to a mindset where people do seldomly consider the MAD classes. Which, I guess, is more a testament to the problems associated with MAD classes.
But I guess my point is, 5 extra points are much less of a balance problem than even a single additional character.
What's the party composition, Lochar?
I think the dretch continue to be the creature my party loathes the most due to the stinking cloud spell-like ability. So many early battles half of them were just standing around heaving and that sort of memory just doesn't fade haha.
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Magnus, right now I'm looking at a paladin, cleric, and fighter/wizard as the primary staples of the group. I've got two semi-flakey people who are another paladin and a wizard. I'm looking at possibly adding one more to the table for when the flakes flake out.
They're running on a 25 point buy, and have smashed through just about everything with maximized hit points. The only thing that gave them any real trouble so far was when they had the entire mogrel lair pulled on them.
But I guess my point is, 5 extra points are much less of a balance problem than even a single additional character.
:)
Of course, your sparring matches with the Creative Director have not gone unnoticed by me. Take it as fame or infamy, I kinda knew where this line of discussion was headed before it started. :)
You could be right. I just perfer to my own "hands on investigation." Balancing encounters is an art that can be improved with practice.
My opinion: a fifth player makes a big difference, let alone a 6th.
I know I'm going to ask my players in my Runelords game to switch over to a point-build. It's 25 points, but even that will result in several stats dropping (they rolled well, except for the halfling cleric). Part of this is also due to the fact I'm going to add Mythic into the game, and figure the stat increases for even Mythic Tiers with the current stats would quickly get overpowered.
The one player who I showed the revised stats to (and who was initially against point builds) admitted he felt the stats were fair and not a serious loss of power. Probably the biggest change is several characters would not get skill points for a level or two.
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If I did get a chance to run a WotR campaign within the next year, I'd probably go with a 20-point build and have a minimum stat rule (only one stat allowed to be below 8 after the racial modifiers). It seems the most fair approach, and also helps reduce min/max tendencies.
Magnus, right now I'm looking at a paladin, cleric, and fighter/wizard as the primary staples of the group. I've got two semi-flakey people who are another paladin and a wizard. I'm looking at possibly adding one more to the table for when the flakes flake out.
They're running on a 25 point buy, and have smashed through just about everything with maximized hit points. The only thing that gave them any real trouble so far was when they had the entire mogrel lair pulled on them.
Yeah, 25 point buy and 5 players will do a number on balance. Maxed out hitpoints don't cut it anymore, you need to apply advanced templates (I recommend getting the free Combat Manager for that) and combine several encounters. I hope it works out for you.
But I guess my point is, 5 extra points are much less of a balance problem than even a single additional character.:)
Of course, your sparring matches with the Creative Director have not gone unnoticed by me. Take it as fame or infamy, I kinda knew where this line of discussion was headed before it started. :)
I'd prefer to call them "civil disagreements". ;) I certainly had the feeling that I was having a polite conversation with James the vast majority of the time, certainly much more than about any conversation I've had with Sean. :p
You could be right. I just perfer to my own "hands on investigation." Balancing encounters is an art that can be improved with practice.
My opinion: a fifth player makes a big difference, let alone a 6th.
They totally do. I hope I get to see the Rise of the Runelords campaign I can be a player in reach the natural end of the adventure path, since it is perfectly within the expected limits, 4 players, 15 point buy. A bit heavy on the casting side, though, with three full casters.
So far it has been way more balanced than my own campaigns, but we'll see what happens now that we are reaching the higher levels (currently at level 8).
My players have just turned mythic, and I must admit that I am worried about the "mythic hex" ability. The witch of the group is using the slumber hex to great effect. This has not been a problem so far - the monsters have made their saves a couple of times, and other times the player has been able to shine, as he should.
But the mythic hex automatically works against non-mythic enemies in the first round. And so they will fall down for 1 round, with no save. And it can be used 5 times a day. There are many mini-bosses that will be sleeping, let me tell you :). And then AoE'd while standing up again. Or just coup de grace'd.
And that leaves the mythic, epic fighting. The players should be the shining heroes, but I must admit that I fear the saving throw of
So? Just start giving other critters minor mythic abilities.
I'll have to say that when I bring Mythic into my group, I am going to alter it. I will NOT be having stat increases for the even Mythic Tiers. The characters are above a 25-point build because of lucky stat rolls. I calculated what their stats should be for a 25-point build and realized I could ignore the Stat increases for Tiers 2, 4, and 6 and that would about even things out.
Or to put it another way, I rebuilt Xanesha as a level 4 Sorceress, 3rd Tier Archmage. It made it a hard fight. I could have killed the Paladin Cohort if I'd focused all Xanesha's attacks on her for two rounds (the Barbarian was the bigger risk thus ignoring the Paladin who'd only hit once for the Barbarian who was doing more damage - ironically it was the level 6 Ninja and the W3/T4/ArcTr1 who proved to be the real threat. Sneak Attack Ping-Pong can be nasty! ;)
My players have just turned mythic, and I must admit that I am worried about the "mythic hex" ability. The witch of the group is using the slumber hex to great effect. This has not been a problem so far - the monsters have made their saves a couple of times, and other times the player has been able to shine, as he should.
But the mythic hex automatically works against non-mythic enemies in the first round. And so they will fall down for 1 round, with no save. And it can be used 5 times a day. There are many mini-bosses that will be sleeping, let me tell you :). And then AoE'd while standing up again. Or just coup de grace'd.
Ok, I get the concern, but I'm curious - where are you getting the 5 times a day limitation from? Consulting the SRD and the FAQ, I can only see limitations as to once per day for a given target. I have a Witch in my campaign, and we're not using any limitation like that. We'll see 5 Hex attempts of one type or another per encounter, much less per day.
I have been running two mythic games. The first they started mythic at first level and the other they turned mythic at 8th level. So far I like the mythic rules and the players love them (dubbing it the new normal). The only two areas that have concerned me are mythic haste and mythic arcane strike. Mythic haste is just too good, haste did not need a buff normal haste is already mythic power level. Mythic arcane strike only concerns me because of the ability to get bane for the current battle, it is a very strong ability (it's the inquisitors class defining ability). Other than that I really enjoy it and it is fun to see the characters use mythic abilities to turn the tide of battle and feel like big damn heroes.
Andoric - you are right! My mistake, I just assumed the mythic hex would be limited by the number of mythic power uses per day. Well, there you go. It will work out. I have a good group, and we will discuss it if becomes an issue.
Tangent - thanks for the suggestion, but I will try to keep the mythic enemies rare. Just as the PCs are rare.
Can't say for WoTR since I'm not running that, but the first session after my level 13 party in my home game got mythic seemed to go really well. . .
This week, since its Thanksgiving they are going to have to fight Mythic Were-turkeys! (Its traditional to fight were-turkeys on Thanksgiving, right?)