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Double barrel pistols. Two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting. Greater two weapon fighting. Weapon cord. 11 the level for 3 attacks with BAB. Rapid Shot.
P1 is Pistol 1.
P2 is Pistol 2.
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P1 shoot both as gtwfOkay that makes sense. Firing both barrels at a time seems pretty risky as you could blow up the gun (barring dual Greater Reliable enchantment Dorf Gunslingers I suppose.)
A gun only explodes if it misfires while it has the broken condition. If both barrels are fired simultaneously, then even if both of them misfire, the gun does not explode because the weapon does not have the broken condition at the time either barrel misfires.
Tradition should be ignored. Crossbows were outlawed by the Pope for their efficacy at killing heavily armored knights (nobility).
So very wrong:
"29. We prohibit under anathema that murderous art of crossbowmen and archers, which is hateful to God, to be employed against Christians and Catholics from now on. "
So yeah Innocent III did try to make shooting each other something that Catholics weren't supposed to do,along with jousting etc:
14. We entirely forbid, moreover, those abominable jousts and tournaments in which knights come together by agreement and rashly engage in showing off their physical prowess and daring, and which often result in human deaths and danger to souls. If any of them dies on these occasions, although penance and viaticum are not to be denied him when he requests them, he is to be deprived of a church burial.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum10.htm
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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A gun only explodes if it misfires while it has the broken condition. If both barrels are fired simultaneously, then even if both of them misfire, the gun does not explode because the weapon does not have the broken condition at the time either barrel misfires.
Expect table variance ...
It's two separate dice rolls, so I could see it being judged as two distinct firings.
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A gun only explodes if it misfires while it has the broken condition. If both barrels are fired simultaneously, then even if both of them misfire, the gun does not explode because the weapon does not have the broken condition at the time either barrel misfires.Expect table variance ...
It's two separate dice rolls, so I could see it being judged as two distinct firings.
Still not a problem. If it is two distinct firings then ALL the rules for distinct firings would apply, i.e. you should have the option of not firing the second shot if the first one misfires.
I say if you are at a table and you feel worthless because your partner was able to smite a threat in short order then you should find a roleplaying game to get in on and stop being the third man at a chess table.
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I say if you are at a table and you feel worthless because your partner was able to smite a threat in short order then you should find a roleplaying game to get in on and stop being the third man at a chess table.
Pathfinder is a social game. If you don't care how your playstyle effects the enjoyment of the other people at the table than you need to find an offline CRPG to play.
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I say if you are at a table and you feel worthless because your partner was able to smite a threat in short order then you should find a roleplaying game to get in on and stop being the third man at a chess table.Pathfinder is a social game. If you don't care how your playstyle effects the enjoyment of the other people at the table than you need to find an offline CRPG to play.
But some people are never going to understand this or care about this. I'm not sure what the answer to this is, either.
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But some people are never going to understand this or care about this. I'm not sure what the answer to this is, either.I say if you are at a table and you feel worthless because your partner was able to smite a threat in short order then you should find a roleplaying game to get in on and stop being the third man at a chess table.Pathfinder is a social game. If you don't care how your playstyle effects the enjoyment of the other people at the table than you need to find an offline CRPG to play.
That's where the "don't be a jerk" rule comes into effect. Players, DMs and especially coordinators are not powerless when it comes to jerk players even in a public organized play environment. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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Still not a problem. If it is two distinct firings then ALL the rules for distinct firings would apply, i.e. you should have the option of not firing the second shot if the first one misfires.A gun only explodes if it misfires while it has the broken condition. If both barrels are fired simultaneously, then even if both of them misfire, the gun does not explode because the weapon does not have the broken condition at the time either barrel misfires.Expect table variance ...
It's two separate dice rolls, so I could see it being judged as two distinct firings.
Nope. They are both fired as a single action; by deciding to fire both barrels at once, you've committed to that. If you're unlucky enough to get a double misfire, you could end up looking for somebody to cast 'make whole'.
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Still not a problem. If it is two distinct firings then ALL the rules for distinct firings would apply, i.e. you should have the option of not firing the second shot if the first one misfires.A gun only explodes if it misfires while it has the broken condition. If both barrels are fired simultaneously, then even if both of them misfire, the gun does not explode because the weapon does not have the broken condition at the time either barrel misfires.Expect table variance ...
It's two separate dice rolls, so I could see it being judged as two distinct firings.
Nope. They are both fired as a single action; by deciding to fire both barrels at once, you've committed to that. If you're unlucky enough to get a double misfire, you could end up looking for somebody to cast 'make whole'.
Either they are distinct firings or not. You cannot have it both ways. If you attempt to have it both ways for no other purpose than to screw over one of your players so that their primary, highly expensive weapon gets destroyed than you are in violation of another rule. The one that says "don't be a jerk."
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That's where the "don't be a jerk" rule comes into effect. Players, DMs and especially coordinators are not powerless when it comes to jerk players even in a public organized play environment. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.But some people are never going to understand this or care about this. I'm not sure what the answer to this is, either.I say if you are at a table and you feel worthless because your partner was able to smite a threat in short order then you should find a roleplaying game to get in on and stop being the third man at a chess table.Pathfinder is a social game. If you don't care how your playstyle effects the enjoyment of the other people at the table than you need to find an offline CRPG to play.
My problem with this is where to draw the "jerk" line. How much dpr is okay? How many summoned creatures? Lots of power gamers I know power game as a hedge against questionable GMing. After being on the receiving end a few times, I understand this position a lot better.
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My problem with this is where to draw the "jerk" line. How much dpr is okay? How many summoned creatures? Lots of power gamers I know power game as a hedge against questionable GMing. After being on the receiving end a few times, I understand this position a lot better.
If someone powergames as a hedge against "questionable GMing," do they have to go full-throttle when at a table with a good GM?
Part of being a good, responsible gamer is being able to feel out the table and know the answers to things like "How much DPR is OK," or "How many summoned creatures?" Granted, it's tough sometimes; I know I've failed at it and have had my Aristocrat's actions trivialize scenarios before. I've also made it a point to learn from my mistakes and become more responsible, because those mistakes were not OK.
Building a scenario-busting monstrosity for "just-in-case," then unleashing its full power at tables where it is not needed, now that's a jerk move. Thinking that it's OK to do that, there's a bad sign.
-Matt
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True, and I've been on the receiving end of that. But let's be honest here: who makes a heavens oracle to *not* cast color spray?
The unnecessary power levels of some builds are easier to detect than others. "Double-barreled" and "Fighter" have different associations, for example. It's on us to see the signs and discourage irresponsible behavior.
-Matt
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My problem with this is where to draw the "jerk" line. How much dpr is okay? How many summoned creatures? Lots of power gamers I know power game as a hedge against questionable GMing. After being on the receiving end a few times, I understand this position a lot better.That's where the "don't be a jerk" rule comes into effect. Players, DMs and especially coordinators are not powerless when it comes to jerk players even in a public organized play environment. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.But some people are never going to understand this or care about this. I'm not sure what the answer to this is, either.I say if you are at a table and you feel worthless because your partner was able to smite a threat in short order then you should find a roleplaying game to get in on and stop being the third man at a chess table.Pathfinder is a social game. If you don't care how your playstyle effects the enjoyment of the other people at the table than you need to find an offline CRPG to play.
You are looking at it the wrong way. Numbers such as DPR or Summoned creatures are irrelevant. What is relevant is everyone's fun. If no one at the table is bothered by a DPR of 1000 then it is not a problem. If everyone at the table is bothered by a DPR of 100, it is a problem that needs to be addressed. The issue with organized play is that what the level of tolerance is changes from table to table. So the trick is not to teach people not to power game, but rather to teach them when and how to tone down their power gaming when it needs to be.
True, and I've been on the receiving end of that. But let's be honest here: who makes a heavens oracle to *not* cast color spray?
Someone who likes pretty colors?
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Pistol, Double-Barreled: This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action. If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot.
Misfires: If the natural result of your attack roll falls within a firearm's misfire value, that shot misses, even if you would have otherwise hit the target. When a firearm misfires, it gains the broken condition. While it has the broken condition, it suffers the normal disadvantages that broken weapons do, and its misfire value increases by 4 unless the wielder has gun training in the particular type of firearm. In that case, the misfire value increases by 2 instead of 4.
Conditions If more than one condition affects a character, apply them all. If effects can't combine, apply the most severe effect.
So the question then becomes, can more than one condition be applied during the same action? The answer is a resounding yes. A Fighter with both the Bleeding Critical and Blinding Critical feats can apply both Conditions with the same action. You are taking two shots during one action, you roll separately and thus you can misfire separately. Because it is a single action, you don't get to choose to continue firing or not, you only get that choice if you decide to fire both barrels as separate actions.
Consider the high level arcane caster firing Scorching Ray. Casting the spell is a standard action. You choose your targets when you cast the spell. Multiple rays can either go to one target or several. If you choose to converge them all on one target, but the first ray drops him, you don't get to 're-target' as that decision was already made when you cast it. (All the rays are fired simultaneously).
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That's where the "don't be a jerk" rule comes into effect. Players, DMs and especially coordinators are not powerless when it comes to jerk players even in a public organized play environment. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
You cannot call someone a jerk for playing the perfectly legal character that they want to play. You cannot put your own subjective standard of "optimized enough" as a defacto limit on how good a character can be.
Also, there are a slew of monsters in the various bestiaries, yet in PFS we mostly fight humanoids. I would rather not see module design that favors that even more.MORE MONSTERS!
I agree, I am having a hard time getting a Home game started. So Im stuck with PFS for now. We need more monsters, more trolls more, more non-zombie undead. More Dinosaurs. I mean Imagine a dinosaur loose in absolam scenario.
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True, however you can call someone a jerk for playing their perfectly legal character in a disruptive manner. People have said it time and time again and I agree that it's players and not builds that ruin PFS for others.
And how do you measure disruptive? At what point or standard deviation from the party does someone HAVE to slow down for the rest of the group?
Please change my example from fighter with two critical feats to Rogue with the Bleeding Attack talent and Deafening Critical. That is a better example.
I'm not sure if either of your examples work. Critical feats can apply two conditions as one action, but only when using critical mastery and they are two separate effects, and the example of bleeding attack and deafening critical are two separate effects from two different sources(and you likely won't see because of rogues 3/4 BAB).
That said, I don't know double barrel pistols that well. I'd think the chance of having your gun exploding on the spot is a little extreme. That could happen even if you weren't being cheesy and just had some bad luck. Feels like someone's using the critical fumble decks if you do that.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I don't know double barrel pistols that well. I'd think the chance of having your gun exploding on the spot is a little extreme. That could happen even if you weren't being cheesy and just had some bad luck.
Well, if you don't want to risk that, you don't have to fire both barrels at the same time. It's the only real drawback to using double-barreled pistols that way - a -4 to hit isn't that much of a disadvantage when you're targeting touch AC. And double-barreled pistols are pretty cheap (less than the cost of a +1 weapon enchantment); that's not a lot to pay to get a very significant boost to your DPR (almost doubling it at all but the lowest levels).
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I don't know double barrel pistols that well. I'd think the chance of having your gun exploding on the spot is a little extreme. That could happen even if you weren't being cheesy and just had some bad luck.Well, if you don't want to risk that, you don't have to fire both barrels at the same time. It's the only real drawback to using double-barreled pistols - a -4 to hit isn't that much of a disadvantage when you're targeting touch AC. And double-barreled pistols are pretty cheap (less than the cost of a +1 weapon enchantment); that's not a lot to pay to get a very significant boost to your DPR (almost doubling it at all but the lowest levels).
Of course, if you don't fire both at the same time you may as well just use the one you got at the start.
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True, however you can call someone a jerk for playing their perfectly legal character in a disruptive manner. People have said it time and time again and I agree that it's players and not builds that ruin PFS for others.And how do you measure disruptive? At what point or standard deviation from the party does someone HAVE to slow down for the rest of the group?
When the rest of the group is not having fun.
I built my gunslinger around combat and diplomacy. In my first game We only saw one combat, everyone skirted around the others. Then when we finally got to where I can use my Face Skills Y'know what happens? The Wizard brings out a wand of hypnosis, rendering me a mute point. I was not having fun. I didnt get to participate at all. Does that mean they where being disruptive?
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I built my gunslinger around combat and diplomacy. In my first game We only saw one combat, everyone skirted around the others. Then when we finally got to where I can use my Face Skills Y'know what happens? The Wizard brings out a wand of hypnosis, rendering me a mute point. I was not having fun. I didnt get to participate at all. Does that mean they where being disruptive?
Hopefully someone remembered that hypnotism takes one round to cast, using it from a wand doesn't change this. So the wizard starts waving a wand in front of them they get their turn (as does everyone else) to react.
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I don't know double barrel pistols that well. I'd think the chance of having your gun exploding on the spot is a little extreme. That could happen even if you weren't being cheesy and just had some bad luck.Well, if you don't want to risk that, you don't have to fire both barrels at the same time. It's the only real drawback to using double-barreled pistols that way - a -4 to hit isn't that much of a disadvantage when you're targeting touch AC. And double-barreled pistols are pretty cheap (less than the cost of a +1 weapon enchantment); that's not a lot to pay to get a very significant boost to your DPR (almost doubling it at all but the lowest levels).
That's not a disadvantage, that's a "will never get used in the manner the designers obviously intended." Do you honestly think the designers intentionally designed a 2,000+ GP (and, no, that is NOT cheap for a lower level character) weapon that destroys itself 1-2.25% of the time you fire it without at least specifically stating it does that in the text?
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That's where the "don't be a jerk" rule comes into effect. Players, DMs and especially coordinators are not powerless when it comes to jerk players even in a public organized play environment. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
You cannot call someone a jerk for playing the perfectly legal character that they want to play. You cannot put your own subjective standard of "optimized enough" as a defacto limit on how good a character can be.
I agree 100%. However...
True, however you can call someone a jerk for playing their perfectly legal character in a disruptive manner. People have said it time and time again and I agree that it's players and not builds that ruin PFS for others.
What he said.
"I have a legal character build," is no more of a legitimate excuse to be disruptive to the game than is, "I'm only role-playing my character."
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So the question then becomes, can more than one condition be applied during the same action? The answer is a resounding yes. A Fighter with both the Bleeding Critical and Blinding Critical feats can apply both Conditions with the same action. You are taking two shots during one action, you roll separately and thus you can misfire separately. Because it is a single action, you don't get to choose to continue firing or not, you only get that choice if you decide to fire both barrels as separate actions.
That's the wrong question. The real question is, "If two effects occurs during the same attack, and one of those effects is conditional, can the condition created by one effect trigger the second?"
Again, the explosion only occurs if the weapon has the broken condition at the time the misfire occurs. This would essentially by like if, in your example, Blinding Critical only worked if the target has the bleed condition when you crit it. If Bleed were required to trigger Blinding Critical, would Bleeding Critical triggered in the same attack then trigger the Blinding Critical?
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That's not a disadvantage, that's a "will never get used in the manner the designers obviously intended." Do you honestly think the designers intentionally designed a 2,000+ GP (and, no, that is NOT cheap for a lower level character) weapon that destroys itself 1-2.25% of the time you fire it without at least specifically stating it does that in the text?I don't know double barrel pistols that well. I'd think the chance of having your gun exploding on the spot is a little extreme. That could happen even if you weren't being cheesy and just had some bad luck.Well, if you don't want to risk that, you don't have to fire both barrels at the same time. It's the only real drawback to using double-barreled pistols that way - a -4 to hit isn't that much of a disadvantage when you're targeting touch AC. And double-barreled pistols are pretty cheap (less than the cost of a +1 weapon enchantment); that's not a lot to pay to get a very significant boost to your DPR (almost doubling it at all but the lowest levels).
Trollbill, while I don't necessarily disagree with your main point (I think there is room for table variation either your way or Todd's), it's worth noting that the cost of make whole is quite low. Even a 200,000+ gp +5 holy greater reliable double-barreled pistol is only going to cost 600 gp to fix (and Mike has clarified that you can always find the 30th level caster necessary to make it happen).
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Trollbill, while I don't necessarily disagree with your main point (I think there is room for table variation either your way or Todd's), it's worth noting that the cost of make whole is quite low. Even a 200,000+ gp +5 holy greater reliable double-barreled pistol is only going to cost 600 gp to fix (and Mike has clarified that you can always find the 30th level caster necessary to make it happen).
That's not a disadvantage, that's a "will never get used in the manner the designers obviously intended." Do you honestly think the designers intentionally designed a 2,000+ GP (and, no, that is NOT cheap for a lower level character) weapon that destroys itself 1-2.25% of the time you fire it without at least specifically stating it does that in the text?
I think that if you feel the benefits of a double-barrel pistol greatly outweigh the costs (and, yes, I can understand how some people would feel that way), there is a much better way to 'nerf' them, by the rules, than serving up what essentially amounts to a DM 'gotcha.' Just look at the difference in wording between how a double-barrel pistol works and how the other double-barrel guns work.
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I think that if you feel the benefits of a double-barrel pistol greatly outweigh the costs (and, yes, I can understand how some people would feel that way), there is a much better way to 'nerf' them, by the rules, than serving up what essentially amounts to a DM 'gotcha.' Just look at the difference in wording between how a double-barrel pistol works and how the other double-barrel guns work.Trollbill, while I don't necessarily disagree with your main point (I think there is room for table variation either your way or Todd's), it's worth noting that the cost of make whole is quite low. Even a 200,000+ gp +5 holy greater reliable double-barreled pistol is only going to cost 600 gp to fix (and Mike has clarified that you can always find the 30th level caster necessary to make it happen).
That's not a disadvantage, that's a "will never get used in the manner the designers obviously intended." Do you honestly think the designers intentionally designed a 2,000+ GP (and, no, that is NOT cheap for a lower level character) weapon that destroys itself 1-2.25% of the time you fire it without at least specifically stating it does that in the text?
Again, I appreciate the finer points of your analogy with the critical and sneak attack example and find it valid. I only wanted to make the cost to fix clear.
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Slight tangent:
Can anyone point me to the rules regarding TWF and firearms? I haven't been able to find the explanation for how a character can use TWF for a projectile weapon. TWF only mentions thrown weapons, not projectile or "ranged" weapons.
Does the same rationale allow you to use TWF and Rapid Shot with one-handed crossbows?
Can anyone point me to the rules regarding TWF and firearms? I haven't been able to find the explanation for how a character can use TWF for a projectile weapon. TWF only mentions thrown weapons, not projectile or "ranged" weapons.
TWF can be used with ranged weapons too, it doesn't state that it can only be used with melee weapons. The thing that actually keeps you from doing so with ranged weapons is the reloading rules. You need a free hand to reload, and most people only have 2 hands.
Does the same rationale allow you to use TWF and Rapid Shot with one-handed crossbows?
Actually yes, however crossbows are considered weak and don't have a class revolving around them. They also don't hit touch, require more feats, and don't get an attribute to damage very easily. Hand Crossbows being exotic doesn't help either. (Hand crossbows specifically state they can be used with two weapon fighting too!)
Yes, you totally can TWF with ranged weapons, like alchemist bombs.
I don't know why you would but you could even TWF with a longsword in one hand, and a hand crossbow in the other.
Sword and Pistol might be a reason to do so, though the feat itself is not so awesome because it does nothing to help you reload, so you end up shooting a shot and... having an empty gun that can't use iteratives.
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True, and I've been on the receiving end of that. But let's be honest here: who makes a heavens oracle to *not* cast color spray?
I have a blaster wizard that can easly one spell combats. The last scenario I was in with him I did 0 damage. I power game so I can save the table if needed. I have no problem sitting back and enjoying the game.
We were playing a season 1 scenario, and as one player said to the DM. Your season 1 mod can not overcome our 5 years of powercreep.
I Have a heavens oracle Gnome. That I constantly look for reasons to spend my combat actions chasing something shiney.
I highly doubt I am an anomaly. There are plenty of people that are just like me.
But having the ability to one shot something and save someones character from death is hardly a jerk move. Infact I would say opposite.
I think with the current record, the choice is to mostly ignore balance except for issues regarding mundane characters doing supernatural things.
I thought it was to avoid mass changes, such as radically changing gunslinger rules but seeking small things like a FAQs if possible. Opinions on balance and superhuman feats change depending on who you ask. One guy tells you martial-caster disparity is an agenda and casters are jealous of martials, another says its about fun, and another says fluff is more important than mechanics, and another might say life isn't fair is a viable design philosophy.
PFS does what it can, I think, by banning super dumb stuff (Con based spell caster are you serious paizo), but that seems pretty lame to have to ban options in a cooprative game
Con based spell caster ???
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PFS does what it can, I think, by banning super dumb stuff (Con based spell caster are you serious paizo), but that seems pretty lame to have to ban options in a cooprative gameCon based spell caster ???
I believe he is referring to the Scarred Witch Doctor which I do not believe is PFS legal as you have to be an Orc, and Half-orcs don't count for that in PFS.
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True, and I've been on the receiving end of that. But let's be honest here: who makes a heavens oracle to *not* cast color spray?I have a blaster wizard that can easly one spell combats. The last scenario I was in with him I did 0 damage. I power game so I can save the table if needed. I have no problem sitting back and enjoying the game.
We were playing a season 1 scenario, and as one player said to the DM. Your season 1 mod can not overcome our 5 years of powercreep.
I Have a heavens oracle Gnome. That I constantly look for reasons to spend my combat actions chasing something shiney.
I highly doubt I am an anomaly. There are plenty of people that are just like me.
But having the ability to one shot something and save someones character from death is hardly a jerk move. Infact I would say opposite.
True enough.