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Yeah... I'm gonna go ahead and say that a bard or evangelist cleric is the best support class in the game. 3 extra actions once per fight is nice but its hard to beat haste good hope and inspire courage.... plus heals... plus every skill known to man.
There is no answer to that except for flavor...
Druid is a fair comparison: same BAB same hit die same skill points
And then you compare class features.... and druid wins hands down.
I really think that the monk either needs:
Option 1:
Give monk full BAB
Make ki powers on par with rage powers
Option 2:
Give monks a caster level on par with a magus
I vote full BAB, for flavor it makes no real sense for it not to.
I also vote for more selectable ki powers given it's kind of the monk's thing. I'd settle for ki being tied to feats like stunning fist or elemental fist, it's ridiculous to keep track of too many 'per day' abilities.
I vote full BAB, for flavor it makes no real sense for it not to.
I also vote for more selectable ki powers given it's kind of the monk's thing. I'd settle for ki being tied to feats like stunning fist or elemental fist, it's ridiculous to keep track of too many 'per day' abilities.
If you want fighter BAB play a fighter. Even if you shave his head and give him a philosophy.
Monk has its own things going. Wisdom based AC and attacks mean perception and sense motive tend to be high and in most games I play in that alone can be worth its weight in GP for a combat based character. There are other little bits and peices that make monks different. The class us not all about hitting hard and that is reflected in the lower BAB.
I vote full BAB, for flavor it makes no real sense for it not to.
I also vote for more selectable ki powers given it's kind of the monk's thing. I'd settle for ki being tied to feats like stunning fist or elemental fist, it's ridiculous to keep track of too many 'per day' abilities.
If you want fighter BAB play a fighter. Even if you shave his head and give him a philosophy.
Monk has its own things going. Wisdom based AC and attacks mean perception and sense motive tend to be high and in most games I play in that alone can be worth its weight in GP for a combat based character. There are other little bits and peices that make monks different. The class us not all about hitting hard and that is reflected in the lower BAB.
I'm not concerned with Monk hitting hard, damage has nothing to do with BAB, I want him to hit... at all because my vision of super kung-fu guy includes the flurry of misses. also I hate the complication where monk has two or three abilities that treats his monk level as BAB. It just adds unwanted extra math and inflates the importance's of abilities that eliminates a lot of choice.
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If you want fighter BAB play a fighter.
Aww man, better tell paladins, barbarians, gunslingers, cavalier, rangers, and samurai they're all doing it wrong then. Or maybe you know, its the 3/4 BAB martial that's doing it wrong.
Option 2:
Give monks a caster level on par with a magusIsn't that the purpose of ki Music / Quiggong Monk?
Being able to spend a Ki point for an almost guaranteed hit (True Strike) seems nice.
Sort of, but it burns out pretty quickly. Ki is also a daily resource, which means longer adventures burn it out faster. Its also not even close to the ultimate power that is magic. You end up with a very limited selection, and you don't get to do basic utility with it like fly, see invisibility, or anything resulting in problem solving.
Malwing... so it's not the BAB that bothers you it's the maths that gives the Monk a fighterlike BAB (when doing Monk stuff) that sucks?
MrSin... to me those are all still fighter sub types. What I'm saying is, and I can't believe I have to clear this up for you, if you want a fighter (or fighter subtype) then play a fighter (or fighter subtype).If you want something with other interesting or cool powers then choose that. Don't then whine that it doesn't do the job that the class you chose not to play does. My previous post was more a more elegant and economical use of language.
Giving the monk full BAB makes no more sense than giving the cleric of a war god full BAB.
Its two entirely different things really. The cleric is a nine level caster and has plenty of buffs to bring him up to par, in 3.5 war actually was capable of having full BAB with a spell. Monks on the other hand are a martial that has full BAB while full attacking performing maneuvers but not while moving, despite being a class about moving(Apparently, not sure about that but lets go with that). If they had full BAB all the time, it would help them qualify for feats and hit things while moving or in retaliation.
If you want an unarmed fighter, then play an unarmed fighter (the archetype). Quit trying to take the monk away from us who enjoy the monk concept when you already have the unarmed fighter archetype.
What? Who said that? No one is trying to take away your monk. People want the monk concept to perform better if anything.
you can, however, do an awful lot that spells can't do and do them as SLA rather than spells.
So what exactly can you do that spells can't? I mean, you can emulate a feat I guess, but feats are weaker than spells and they cost ki and only work on that turn.
MrSin... to me those are all still fighter sub types.
Yeah, they're martials right? Your categorizing them, but what exactly is your monk supposed to do then? The monk doesn't actually have full BAB when moving, which is supposed to be the monk thing... right? What exactly is the monk to you then? If he's not supposed to be a guy in the front lines, and he doesn't really have class features that help out of combat, why would I want to have a monk?
What I'm saying is, and I can't believe I have to clear this up for you
Well that didn't seem necessary to say.
Monk has its own things going. Wisdom based AC and attacks mean perception and sense motive tend to be high and in most games I play in that alone can be worth its weight in GP for a combat based character. There are other little bits and pieces that make monks different. The class us not all about hitting hard and that is reflected in the lower BAB.
Right, they aren't all about hitting hard. But what are they about then? Being wisdom based is really something anyone can be, and skills are easy to make up for and quiet a few do perception and sense motive better than the monk(Inquisitor says hello!). The monk doesn't actually have any class features related to those, so they aren't class features of the monk.
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Yeah... I'm gonna go ahead and say that a bard or evangelist cleric is the best support class in the game. 3 extra actions once per fight is nice but its hard to beat haste good hope and inspire courage.... plus heals... plus every skill known to man.
its a little better then 3 extra actions once per fight. you can do it as many times as you have ki points. my character currently has 31 ki pool points, and can store 6 at 13th. so he could allow everyone in the group to have 3 extra standard actions, while vital striking the snot out of the bbeg, what 9 times a day + a freebi once every new fight.
then add to that the ability to give everyone true strike 3 times per day as a swift action (quicken SLA), bark skin as a standard and bardic performance (advice) as a move action.
AOE restoration as a SLA anyone? aoe truestrike, aoe abundent step? i mean you can get some crazy awesome abilities late in the game that only the sensei monk brings to the table.
but anyone way, if you know how to build a monk, and you know which archetypes to stay away from, you can make a very powerful character. the QQ around the forums is that you have to be a lawyer to make a bad ass monk.
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The monk already has full BAB for CMB and when he fights immobile. He honly has sub-par BAB when he moves. Which makes a lot of sense, becouse he is a mobile skirmisher. Oh wait...
MrSin "well that didn't seem necessary to say.". As you obviously knew I meant fighter sub types or "martials" and you felt the need to list them and play devils advocate then your sarcasm was noted and returned.
What the Monk does have is a measure of self reliance. They need minimal gear (can fight weaponless and armour free), they have 3 good saves, evasion, they get to heal themselves, immunity to diseases then poisons not to mention Ki abilities to mimic fighter BAB or ensure strikes.
I personally find them quite selfish in outlook, it's all about self buffing and survival, but that doesn't make them too strong nor too weak, they have their niche.
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What the Monk does have is a measure of self reliance. They need minimal gear
Not really. They need AoMF, which is twice as expensive as a magical weapon, has half the maxium enhancement bonus and takes an item slot. If they don't heavility sacrifice their offensive options, their AC also doesn't keep up if they don't have things like Rings of Protection and Bracers of Armor. They don't get to use Amulets of Natural Armor, either, as they need that slot for AoMF.
they have 3 good saves, evasion
That's true. No one is complaining about their saves.
they get to heal themselves
Not really. Their self-healing is so ineffective it might as well not be there.
immunity to diseases then poisons
True. Those are good advantages.
not to mention Ki abilities to mimic fighter BAB or ensure strikes.
True strike burns ki really, really fast. And Ki is already a very limited resource. FoB is a pathetic mess. Move and your attack sucks, because that's how skirmish warriors should work, right?
I personally find them quite selfish in outlook, it's all about self buffing and survival, but that doesn't make them too strong nor too weak, they have their niche.
Their defenses don't really matter if their offense sucks. Opponents can easily ignore the Monk bouncing around the battlefield with his ineffective attacks. And they don't have any real means of affecting the combat other than damage. Even their CMB is not particularly good.
Due to the way spell casters are broken to all hell and back, I don't mind making non casters more powerful - as long as that power increase focuses on the class' role. The role of the monk is not the same as the role of the fighter. So, making them more similar is a mistake.
People keep saying that... But if Monks are not martials, what are they? They are not skill-monkeys. They're not healers. They're not arcane casters. They are not party-faces. They are not crowd-controllers.
The only thing they can do is damage and maybe a combat maneuver or two... But not very well, or at least, not any better than any other martial class.
Only if you want them unarmed.What the Monk does have is a measure of self reliance. They need minimal gearNot really. They need AoMF, which is twice as expensive as a magical weapon, has half the maxium enhancement bonus and takes an item slot.
And if you're using an weapon, you're using an weapon. So you still need just as much gear as any other class... If not more.
- Monks excel at overcoming even the most daunting perils (the Monk has some of the most impressive options/features for defense in the game, they don't need to emphasize Con because they get a ton of other defenses)
Immunity to everything still doesn't stop you from being bashed to death by the opponent. Monks' AC is not particularly impressive and they have no real ranged option except for 1 specific archetype, which is widely recognized as one of the few archetypes that make Monks a decent class.
striking where it's least expected (high move with acrobatics both of which are boostable with ki, Abundant Step, access to Cloud Step and Dimn Dervish, etc)
Yes... Yoou move, make 1 attack with medium BAB and then die, because your AC is mediocre at best and you don't have much more HP than a Wizard.
taking advantage of enemy vulnerabilities (Stunning Fist, Touch of Serenity, Manuevers, etc. choose your vulnerability and a well made monk can probably target it)
Stunning Fist is unreliable, you shouldn't depend on it. Monks are not particularly good at maneuvers and even if they were, maneuvers lose their bang as the levels go up. CMD scales too fast. So... Hitting stuff it is.
Fleet of foot (yes, the monk can't FoB and move in the same round, but that was largely corrected with things like Panther and Snake Fang)
It really isn't. None of these styles compensate for low accuracy and small damage.
Due to the way spell casters are broken to all hell and back, I don't mind making non casters more powerful - as long as that power increase focuses on the class' role. The role of the monk is not the same as the role of the fighter. So, making them more similar is a mistake.People keep saying that... But if Monks are not martials, what are they? TThey're monks.
Sorry, but since the role categorization (skill monkeys vs. healers etc.) is among the dumbest things to emerge on the forums, that's the best answer I can give.
and what's the role of the monk then?
Due to the way spell casters are broken to all hell and back, I don't mind making non casters more powerful - as long as that power increase focuses on the class' role. The role of the monk is not the same as the role of the fighter. So, making them more similar is a mistake.People keep saying that... But if Monks are not martials, what are they? TThey're monks.
Sorry, but since the role categorization (skill monkeys vs. healers etc.) is among the dumbest things to emerge on the forums, that's the best answer I can give.
Tsc... I don't care what you call the Monk's role. I don't even care if you have a name for each role. That's not the point.
It doesn't matter what you call Monks. They're still not good at anything else. They aren't good at skills, they aren't good at social encounters, they aren't good at utility or battlefield control. They aren't good at healing.
What are they good at? How can they reliably help the party in any way other than dealing damage?
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It really isn't. None of these styles compensate for low accuracy and small damage.
- Fleet of foot (yes, the monk can't FoB and move in the same round, but that was largely corrected with things like Panther and Snake Fang)
Justin I agree with you for the most part, I'm pretty content with Monks aside from the poorly scaling Attack.
However, in no way shape or form should 3 feats have to make up for FoB. That's not the way it should work. Although, I'd hate being a Monk without it I won't lie ;P
They're monks.
Sorry, but since the role categorization (skill monkeys vs. healers etc.) is among the dumbest things to emerge on the forums, that's the best answer I can give.
Okay... Well what does being a monk mean? Does it mean any of the things Lemmy listed? No? Okay... So what do they do. Why would I want one. That's the point. They don't bring any of the things Lemmy just listed to the table.
Don't blame role categorization. That's just a shorthand to say what someone does. Which is why people ask... Well what does a monk do? You used the word role yourself earlier.
The role of the monk is not the same as the role of the fighter. So, making them more similar is a mistake.
Its not making them more similar, its making them more effective at what they do.
Qiggong Zen Archer can work... Or the good old Qiggong Str-based Temple Sword-wielding Monk...
You just have to accept that your Monk barely looks like what you'd expect from a Monk.
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It doesn't matter what you call Monks. They're still not good at anything else. They aren't good at skills, they aren't good at social encounters, they aren't good at utility or battlefield control. They aren't good at healing.
What are they good at? How can they reliably help the party in any way other than dealing damage?
you should really try not to use such general language when referring to monks.
tetori : best control character in the game (imo)sohei: best mundane archer in the game (hands down)
maneuver master: only second to a lore warden for CMB attacks
drunken master/sensai: best support character in the game (never runs out of ki)
the list of archetypes is pretty long, and they are mostly good to great, so dont say "monks cant do this or that", because they can with the correct archetype.
Why do you act like Ki is infinite? It's not even a plentiful resource. By 10th level you can have, maybe, if you really like Ki, 9~11 points of Ki.
Very rarely an opponent with decent attacks will be stunned by Stunning Fist. And deflecting 1 attack per round won't help much against opponents with multiple attacks (which is pretty much all of them).
Your Monk examples are Schrodinger Monks who always have the solution for every proposed problem... But no build can have half those options at the same time.
did you already forget Rynjin's analysis of your Ki expenditure?
you should really try not to use such general language when referring to monks.
tetori : best control character in the game (imo)
sohei: best mundane archer in the game (hands down)
maneuver master: only second to a lore warden for CMB attacks
drunken master/sensai: best support character in the game (never runs out of ki)
the list of archetypes is pretty long, and they are mostly good to great, so dont say "monks cant do this or that", because they can with the correct archetype.
I disagree with pretty much all of those assertions.
Your "best control character" can only control 1 opponent at a time. If he can reach it.
I have no idea why you think Sohei is the best archer in the game, much less "hands down best archer in the game".
MM is good at maneuvers. That's true. Unfortunately... Maneuvers themselves are not very good.
Drunken Master is not even close to best support character in the game, IMHO. Any Bard, Cleric or Wizard will do better.
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DId we reached te build part of this kind of threads? cause that part is where fun lies.
Pfft, nah, we're still in the denial portion where no one can quiet point out why you'd want a monk and the "but archetypes!' portion which displays that archetypes are radically different. Next we need to compare them to wizards or explain why maneuvers suck I think.
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To pick one example, the Drunken Master with Elemental Fist and Dragon Ferocity does 2d10 + 9d6 per attack (and can have over 25 attacks in a round). Even if they have a few less plusses to hit than a fighter, the sheer number of attacks they can make in a round makes up for that.
So lets see here, the average of 2d10 is 11 (5.5x2) points, plus the average of 9d6 which is 32 (3.5x9), so that is an average damage of 43 per elemental fist/drunken strength attack. Not that impressive.
Two archetypes; Zen Archer and Quingong. Further, Quingong is an archetype which any monk can take because it integrates well with every other archetype.Qinggong isn't really an archetype, its more of a template, and using an expendable resource that you don't have pooring out your ears (like magic) is hardly a viable ranged option.
The utility of a high AC decreases dramatically when the enemy can't hit you (forex. they are stunned or serene or have their attack negated or etc.)
Yeah, because stunning fist/touch of serenity will definitely hit, considering you are a 3/4 BAB class that has no means of increasing accuracy other than burning ki, and you are only good at full attacking. Oh wait, it won't.
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first off: DONT SAY SCHRODINGERS IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO USE IT CORRECTLY
sorry its a pet peeve of mine.
i was showing that you were incorrect in your assessment that "monks" (implying all monks) were terrible at the things you listed. i proved you wrong. so no Schrodinger here.
second: and this is important, i never said monks ki pool was infinite, i said a drunken master never runs out of ki points, and they dont. the ability to store ki pool points between fighter or even as a filler for your action economy during a fight. used your swift on giving +4 ac to your tank? used your move to reposition to a better location for next round, no bad guy to punch in the face for that standard... drink a beer as a standard get a temp ki pool point. use that pool point next round.
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first off: DONT SAY SCHRODINGERS IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO USE IT CORRECTLY
I use the term Schrodinger because people will understand what I mean. And using ALL CAPS makes you look like a douche. Don't do that.
sorry its a pet peeve of mine.
Sorry, I don't care.
i was showing that you were incorrect in your assessment that "monks" (implying all monks) were terrible at the things you listed. i proved you wrong. so no Schrodinger here.
Ahem... You said I was wrong. No proof of any kind was produced.
But more importantly... At best, each of those archetypes becomes good at one of those things and stays terrible-to-mediocre at everything else. Still can't do anything other than <one of those things, and nothing else>.
second: and this is important, i never said monks ki pool was infinite, i said a drunken master never runs out of ki points, and they dont. the ability to store ki pool points between fighter or even as a filler for your action economy during a fight. used your swift on giving +4 ac to your tank? used your move to reposition to a better location for next round, no bad guy to punch in the face for that standard... drink a beer as a standard get a temp ki pool point. use that pool point next round.
Spending an standard action in combat to get a Ki point to spend on a swift action next round is a terrible idea.
BTW, the post you are referring to was a response to Justin, not you. But you ninja'ed me and my post appeared below your. My response to your post is the one where I quoted you.
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i proved you wrong.
Actually you just said that he was wrong. Saying something and proving something are very different things.
I doubt that in a thread comparing effectiveness of a class you're ever going to find any proof of any sort for any viewpoint.
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Your "best control character" can only control 1 opponent at a time. If he can reach it.
I have no idea why you think Sohei is the best archer in the game, much less "hands down best archer in the game".
MM is good at maneuvers. That's true. Unfortunately... Maneuvers themselves are not very good.
Drunken Master is not even close to best support character in the game, IMHO. Any Bard, Cleric or Wizard will do better.
my tetori's record for grappling, is 6 targets simultaneously. this proves to me that you dont have system mastery and you are talking out of ignorance.
sohei can have rapid shot flurry of blows and many shot as a full attack action, they gain weapon training and retain all the monky goodness you need. in terms of pure damage no other archer can compete without spell assistance.
sensai can give buffs to players that no other character can, when mixed with drunken master they have a near limitless pool of ki to fuel those abilities, which gives them not only greater flexibility in how they buff, but more "spells" per day as a result. in this very thread i posted a framework of my sohei/DM/MotFW/qiggong character. and i will fight to the death to prove that he is a more "valuable" character then a buffer wizzard or even a bard
sensai can give buffs to players that no other character can, when mixed with drunken master they have a near limitless pool of ki to fuel those abilities, which gives them not only greater flexibility in how they buff, but more "spells" per day as a result. in this very thread i posted a framework of my sohei/DM/MotFW/qiggong character. and i will fight to the death to prove that he is a more "valuable" character then a buffer wizzard or even a bard
Or... I could have a wizard and haste. and fly. and see invisibility. and great invisibility. and make a feast from nothing. and warp reality to create a demiplane to own some really nice real estate in where I can even control the weather. I think I like the wizard better, if only for that last one.