I meant the CL for each encounter being 1-3 higher.
That's usually a good challenge. I don't think it requires optimization, but the player had better know his character well, at the very least.
The other suggestions looks spot on. The monk is supposed to fill the additional melee damage dealer position, I think. So healer, fighter, wizard for CC. Looks good.
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The monk does not have problems to fight and survive : its problem is that he doesn't bring anything to the group.
And please, don't write "but in RP the monk is very interesting !", because roleplay have nothing to do with mechanics.
You can play a monk (concept) with any class, not only the monk (class). Actually, the monk (class) is pretty bad to play the monk (concept).
Yeah, honestly it pains me to see a 4 person party even for the test with a monk in it. It's like a big gangrenous leg, swollen and bloated, rotting away the party's experience and treasure while adding nothing worthwhile to its existence. Healer, fighter, wizard...where's the support guy? Virtually every case I can imagine would do better with a Bard, Paladin, Ranger, Inquisitor, Alchemist, Antipaladin, Druid, or additional primary caster or martial. O.o
I hear Kryzbyn say "So healer, fighter, wizard for CC" and I'm like, "what's the monk going to do?"
That's kinda the point, Ash.
Justin said he could come up with a build that proves the monk can contribute.
Put up, or shut up, as it were.
For the record, I'm with the "Why can't the Monk do mechanicly what the fluff suggests he can do?" crowd.
For the record, I'm with the "Why can't the Monk do mechanicly what the fluff suggests he can do?" crowd.
I'm hesitant to spam the thread with my psychic monk for the third time (because it would get obnoxious :P), but it works for the fluff and I highly encourage trying out psionics. :D
Two styles can work... you can pick up combat style master and switch for free at the end of your turn... go from an offensive to a defensive style. Like switching from boar style to snake style
Way too many feats involved though for this to be a reasonable choice. Maybe if you are going all the way to 20.
For the record, I'm with the "Why can't the Monk do mechanicly what the fluff suggests he can do?" crowd.I'm hesitant to spam the thread with my psychic monk for the third time (because it would get obnoxious :P), but it works for the fluff and I highly encourage trying out psionics. :D
I remember the build, and I loved it.
Some games don't allow psionics though, and I rather the powers that be fix the CRB monk :)P.S> you done with my warlock yet? ;)
Yeah, honestly it pains me to see a 4 person party even for the test with a monk in it. It's like a big gangrenous leg, swollen and bloated, rotting away the party's experience and treasure while adding nothing worthwhile to its existence. Healer, fighter, wizard...where's the support guy? Virtually every case I can imagine would do better with a Bard, Paladin, Ranger, Inquisitor, Alchemist, Antipaladin, Druid, or additional primary caster or martial. O.o
I hear Kryzbyn say "So healer, fighter, wizard for CC" and I'm like, "what's the monk going to do?"
Well that is exactly what we are trying to answer. Put forth a situation and see what the Monk can do.
- If it ends up that the three standard characters end up carrying the entire encounter and the Monk contributes almost nothing, the the Monk has failed.
- If he can do at lest something worthwhile then at least he is not a waste of space.
- Finally, if most of the other classes can perform the same tasks better then there is an obvious mechanical problem with the Monk.
If we want to add a couple of encounters with CR10 lieutenants (or something like that) in addition to what I listed, that could be fun as well.
For the record, I'm with the "Why can't the Monk do mechanicly what the fluff suggests he can do?" crowd.I'm hesitant to spam the thread with my psychic monk for the third time (because it would get obnoxious :P), but it works for the fluff and I highly encourage trying out psionics. :DI remember the build, and I loved it.
Some games don't allow psionics though, and I rather the powers that be fix the CRB monk :)P.S> you done with my warlock yet? ;)
Hah, I wish I was finished with it. I've been so busy with writing a novel, running games, doing part time catering work, fixing people's computers part time, and helping my father modify my grandfather's house (putting a tin roof on it and such the last couple of weeks, for about 1/2 of one of is days off each time), combined with running D&D games and/or procrastinating by posting on the Paizo boards that I've scarcely done much with all of it.
I still need to get part 3. of my encounters tutorial up on my blog (you can find the latest version of the psychic monk on my blog's pdf download page, it's been rebuilt from the ground up and is its own class now rather than the alpha stage I posted on the forums a while back, complete with a rebalanced core and the option to take monk "secrets" basically monk talents to customize your monk further). :P
Yeah, honestly it pains me to see a 4 person party even for the test with a monk in it. It's like a big gangrenous leg, swollen and bloated, rotting away the party's experience and treasure while adding nothing worthwhile to its existence. Healer, fighter, wizard...where's the support guy? Virtually every case I can imagine would do better with a Bard, Paladin, Ranger, Inquisitor, Alchemist, Antipaladin, Druid, or additional primary caster or martial. O.o
I hear Kryzbyn say "So healer, fighter, wizard for CC" and I'm like, "what's the monk going to do?"
Well that is exactly what we are trying to answer. Put forth a situation and see what the Monk can do.
- If it ends up that the three standard characters end up carrying the entire encounter and the Monk contributes almost nothing, the the Monk has failed.
- If he can do at lest something worthwhile then at least he is not a waste of space.
- Finally, if most of the other classes can perform the same tasks better then there is an obvious mechanical problem with the Monk.
If we want to add a couple of encounters with CR10 lieutenants (or something like that) in addition to what I listed, that could be fun as well.
Good points. Proceed. =P
CR = APL is good enough for me, but it doesn't matter. I doubt we'll be seeing the builds anyway...
Just to be clear, the enemies that will be tested against the monk build are the ones posted by Lord Twig, right?
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Why not see if they can solo CR=level creatures? It removes a LOT of testing variables (I.E. the fighter/wizard killing the boss instantly, the cleric being the only reason the party is alive through healing in combat (seen it happen once or twice), etc.), and shows what melee* classes really shine. For out-of-combat utility, skills and class features (and possibly feats) could be compared.
@Reshar:We may as well, if we do solo the CR. Otherwise we would need to do CR=APL+x for a challenging encounter for a full party of 4.
*Yes, the monk can control. The only way it can control however, is to grapple as a tetori (which requires you to reach a bunch of opponents at once, so its hard to make feasable), or Stunning Fist/Touch of Serenity (for lotus monks only), which as previous posts have shown, is sub-optimal.
I think there would still be some value in seeing how the monk would do against creatures/encounters that are above CR = APL. Climactic battles/boss fights do happen in most campaigns. Paizo's APs certainly aren't shy about tossing tough fights the player's way; Karzoug from Rise of the Runlords has a CR that's three above the APL, plus he has some very potent backup in the final encounter.
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I think there would still be some value in seeing how the monk would do against creatures/encounters that are above CR = APL. Climactic battles/boss fights do happen in most campaigns. Paizo's APs certainly aren't shy about tossing tough fights the player's way; Karzoug from Rise of the Runlords has a CR that's three above the APL, plus he has some very potent backup in the final encounter.
You make a good point with this. An APL+1 CR(13, if 12 is the baseline), would be nice for a challenging encounter.
Like I said, we should simply ignore Justin Rocket. He is not worth ANYONE'S time. He is simply an obtuse child trying to stroke his own ego...
@ Nicos, we were trying to get monks that were shirtless face punchers, but I took a look anyway. We were also proposing lvl 12, 20 point buy.
+17/+14/+9/+9 is not good.
Your build is to 10th, so looking at CR 10 monsters, you have average ACs of about 24.
This gives you 70%/55%/30%/30% chances to hit. So you are going to average out to 1.85 hits per flurry, but you have a good crit threat.
Crits are a pain to factor in, but here goes. You will average right around 0.8 critical threats per flurry. Depending on where you get that threat, the chance to confirm will change, so using your average hit chance of 47.5%, meaning that you will average 0.38 crits per flurry. Your multiplier is 1 to 1, so each crit counts as an extra hit.
Final: 2.23 hits per flurry.
Average damage per hit: 1d8+19 -> 23.5
So, average damage per flurry = 52.4
That is quite low TBH.
Trip CMB is +18, versus CR 10 average CMD of 30, so not exactly reliable, but an option I suppose. Gotta put that bonus feat somewhere right?
You have some good defenses though... Cant overlook Crane Wing and Deflect Arrows.
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Two styles can work... you can pick up combat style master and switch for free at the end of your turn... go from an offensive to a defensive style. Like switching from boar style to snake style
Way too many feats involved though for this to be a reasonable choice. Maybe if you are going all the way to 20.
I do this with Dragon to Crane on my core monk.
Ok, just for pure curiosity, (and because I am somewhat tired of waiting). My weapon adept take the challenge
** spoiler omitted **
I think there shoudl be a build for every other of the martial class.
I think you made a mistake for your HP, you have 10 more than what you should have (8 [level 1] + 4,5x9 [levels] + 30 [CON] = 78).
The exact average damage you will do with the monk is (against AC of 24, critical included) :
Simple attack : 7/20*0 + 9/20*23,5 + 4/20*7/20*23,5 + 4/20*13/20*47 =
0 + 10.575 + 1.645 + 6.11 = 18.3
Full attack :
Attack 1 : 6/20*0 + 10/20*23.5 + 4/20*6/20*23.5 + 4/20*14/20*47 =
0 + 11.75 + 1.41 + 6.58 = 19.74
Attack 2 : 9/20*0 + 7/20*23.5 + 4/20*9/20*23.5 + 4/20*11/20*47 =
0 + 8.225 + 2.115 + 5.17 = 15.51
Attack 3 : 14/20*0 + 2/20*23.5 + 4/20*14/20*23.5 + 4/20*6/20*47 =
0 + 2.35 + 3.29 + 2.82 = 8.46
Attack 4 : 14/20*0 + 2/20*23.5 + 4/20*14/20*23.5 + 4/20*6/20*47 =
0 + 2.35 + 3.29 + 2.82 = 8.46
Total for full attack : 52.2
I will post a simple fighter build (no archetypes, no obscure sources for feats and items). Same Point buy as you, 2 traits too.
Fighter 10
Initiative: +6
=== Stats ===
Str 24 (18 + 2 human + 2 level +2 belt)
Dex 15 (13 + 2 belt)
Con 16 (14 + 2 belf)
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 7
=== Defense ===
AC: 25 (10 + 11 armor + 1 natural + 1 deflection + 1 luck + 1 dodge)
Can vary from 21 to 35 depending on abilities used (and tower shield).
+4 vs attack of opportunity
Hp: 89
CMD: 32 (10 + 10 bab + 7 str + 2 dex + 1 deflection + 1 luck + 1 dodge)
+4 vs disarm and sunder
=== Saves ===
Fort: +12 (7 base + 3 Con + 2 resistance)
Ref : +7 (3 base +2 dex + 2 resistance)
Will: +10 (3 base + 2 wisdom + 2 resistance + 1 trait + 2 feat)
+3 against fear effects
=== Attacks ===
Simple : +2 scimitar : +25 (1d6+18 ; 15-20/x2)
Full : +2 scimitar : +25/+20 (1d6+18 ; 15-20/x2)
-Special attacks-
While enlarged : +0 attack, +4 average damage, reach 10'; -2 AC
Power attack : -3 attack, +9 damage
Lunge : -2 AC, +5' reach
Spring attack : as a full action, can move before and after the attack, and doesn't provoke attack of opportunity from target
Heavy shield : -0 attack, -3 damage, -3 power attack damage, +2 AC
Tower shield : -2 attack, -3 damage, -3 power attack damage, +4 AC.
=== Traits===
Indomitable faith (+1 will)
Ears and eyes of the city (+1 perception and class skill)
=== Feats===
1. Improved initiative, Power attack, Weapon focus (scimitar)
2. Combat Reflexes
3. Iron will
4. Dodge
5. Mobility
6. Spring attack
7. Weapon specialization (scimitar)
8. Lunge
9. Improved critical (scimitar)
10. Greater Weapon focus (scimitar)
=== Skills ===
Perception +16
Acrobatics +2 (-3 from armor included)
Survival +15
swim +14 (-3 from armor included)
=== Special ===
Combat reflexes : 3 attacks of opportunity per round and can make those while flat footed.
Bravery : +3 against fear effects
Weapon training II (swords +2, bows +1)
Armor training II (-2 ACP, +2 max DEX with armor, no movement penalty)
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) : transform a critical into a simple hit as an immediate action
Tower shield : as a standard action, can create a total cover with its shield.
=== Gear ===
+2 Belt of physical perfection 16k
+2 Scimitar 8k
+1 Amulet of natural armor 2k
+1 Ring of protection 2k
+2 full plate 5k
Masterwork composite longbow (+7 strength)
Masterwork tower shield
Masterwork heavy shield
20 masterwork arrows
Gloves of dueling 15k
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier 5,5k
Cloack of resistance +2 4k
10 potions of Enlarge person
Pocket money
It should be noted that level 10 is a bad level for fighters, because they don't have yet their 3rd attack.
Taking the same numbers as Lord Malkov (monster with 24 AC), and my formula above, I find a DPR of :
Simple attack : 37.7
Full attack : 65.4
(Power attack is included, but enlarge person is not)
I'm somewhat curious as to why people don't just use the Talented Monk. It seems to be a much better chassis for allowing people to create a wide range balanced monks that are capable of contributing, rather than being pigeon-holed into a few splat book archetypes.
That and a few other 3pp was my fix for my games. So far monks are doing okay and staying fun/interesting.
But I think people want Pathfinder's core books to fix monk. Not just that but the Core Monk to be fixed. One should assume that outside of some niche builds/archetypes that abuse something a core monk should be relatively balanced against any of it's iterations, if minmaxing and selective a slim set of builds/archetypes are needed just to make it viable then the monk isn't 'really' fixed.
Ok, just for pure curiosity, (and because I am somewhat tired of waiting). My weapon adept take the challenge
** spoiler omitted **
I think there shoudl be a build for every other of the martial class.
I think you made a mistake for your HP, you have 10 more than what you should have (8 [level 1] + 4,5x9 [levels] + 30 [CON] = 78).
The exact average damage you will do with the monk is (against AC of 24, critical included) :
Simple attack : 7/20*0 + 9/20*23,5 + 4/20*7/20*23,5 + 4/20*13/20*47 =
0 + 10.575 + 1.645 + 6.11 = 18.3Full attack :
Attack 1 : 6/20*0 + 10/20*23.5 + 4/20*6/20*23.5 + 4/20*14/20*47 =
0 + 11.75 + 1.41 + 6.58 = 19.74
Attack 2 : 9/20*0 + 7/20*23.5 + 4/20*9/20*23.5 + 4/20*11/20*47 =
0 + 8.225 + 2.115 + 5.17 = 15.51
Attack 3 : 14/20*0 + 2/20*23.5 + 4/20*14/20*23.5 + 4/20*6/20*47 =
0 + 2.35 + 3.29 + 2.82 = 8.46
Attack 4 : 14/20*0 + 2/20*23.5 + 4/20*14/20*23.5 + 4/20*6/20*47 =
0 + 2.35 + 3.29 + 2.82 = 8.46Total for full attack : 52.2
I will post a simple fighter build (no archetypes, no obscure sources for feats and items). Same Point buy as you, 2 traits too.
** spoiler omitted **...
Honestly this isn't looking too bad for the monk. Compare against the Adult Green Dragon. They would both need to make a save vs. fear and would probably get hit with at least one blast of the breath weapon before they could close to melee. They are equal on the fear save, but the monk would do significantly better on the breath weapon. Once in melee the monk will (most likely) have better AC.
Honestly this isn't looking too bad for the monk. Compare against the Adult Green Dragon. They would both need to make a save vs. fear and would probably get hit with at least one blast of the breath weapon before they could close to melee. They are equal on the fear save, but the monk would do significantly better on the breath weapon. Once in melee the monk will (most likely) have better AC.Ok, just for pure curiosity, (and because I am somewhat tired of waiting). My weapon adept take the challenge
** spoiler omitted **
I think there shoudl be a build for every other of the martial class.
I think you made a mistake for your HP, you have 10 more than what you should have (8 [level 1] + 4,5x9 [levels] + 30 [CON] = 78).
The exact average damage you will do with the monk is (against AC of 24, critical included) :
Simple attack : 7/20*0 + 9/20*23,5 + 4/20*7/20*23,5 + 4/20*13/20*47 =
0 + 10.575 + 1.645 + 6.11 = 18.3Full attack :
Attack 1 : 6/20*0 + 10/20*23.5 + 4/20*6/20*23.5 + 4/20*14/20*47 =
0 + 11.75 + 1.41 + 6.58 = 19.74
Attack 2 : 9/20*0 + 7/20*23.5 + 4/20*9/20*23.5 + 4/20*11/20*47 =
0 + 8.225 + 2.115 + 5.17 = 15.51
Attack 3 : 14/20*0 + 2/20*23.5 + 4/20*14/20*23.5 + 4/20*6/20*47 =
0 + 2.35 + 3.29 + 2.82 = 8.46
Attack 4 : 14/20*0 + 2/20*23.5 + 4/20*14/20*23.5 + 4/20*6/20*47 =
0 + 2.35 + 3.29 + 2.82 = 8.46Total for full attack : 52.2
I will post a simple fighter build (no archetypes, no obscure sources for feats and items). Same Point buy as you, 2 traits too.
** spoiler omitted **...
Well this is a very sub optimal fighter build... I mean it has mobility and spring attack...
Later tonight I will post a few fighter builds.. no archtype. Same point buy same wbl.The separation will become very clear.
Not going to go through it all on my phone... but just swap out a few things and that fighter can have shield bash, twf, imp twf, double slice.... and at 11 will have shield mastery.
Or just standard twf
Or full on reach fighter
Anyway.... I will post it later
Honestly this isn't looking too bad for the monk. Compare against the Adult Green Dragon. They would both need to make a save vs. fear and would probably get hit with at least one blast of the breath weapon before they could close to melee. They are equal on the fear save, but the monk would do significantly better on the breath weapon. Once in melee the monk will (most likely) have better AC.Ok, just for pure curiosity, (and because I am somewhat tired of waiting). My weapon adept take the challenge
** spoiler omitted **
I think there shoudl be a build for every other of the martial class.
I think you made a mistake for your HP, you have 10 more than what you should have (8 [level 1] + 4,5x9 [levels] + 30 [CON] = 78).
The exact average damage you will do with the monk is (against AC of 24, critical included) :
Simple attack : 7/20*0 + 9/20*23,5 + 4/20*7/20*23,5 + 4/20*13/20*47 =
0 + 10.575 + 1.645 + 6.11 = 18.3Full attack :
Attack 1 : 6/20*0 + 10/20*23.5 + 4/20*6/20*23.5 + 4/20*14/20*47 =
0 + 11.75 + 1.41 + 6.58 = 19.74
Attack 2 : 9/20*0 + 7/20*23.5 + 4/20*9/20*23.5 + 4/20*11/20*47 =
0 + 8.225 + 2.115 + 5.17 = 15.51
Attack 3 : 14/20*0 + 2/20*23.5 + 4/20*14/20*23.5 + 4/20*6/20*47 =
0 + 2.35 + 3.29 + 2.82 = 8.46
Attack 4 : 14/20*0 + 2/20*23.5 + 4/20*14/20*23.5 + 4/20*6/20*47 =
0 + 2.35 + 3.29 + 2.82 = 8.46Total for full attack : 52.2
I will post a simple fighter build (no archetypes, no obscure sources for feats and items). Same Point buy as you, 2 traits too.
** spoiler omitted **...
Well this is a very sub optimal fighter build... I mean it has mobility and spring attack...
Later tonight I will post a few fighter builds.. no archtype. Same point buy same wbl.The separation will become very clear.
Not going to go through it all on my phone... but just swap out a few things and that fighter can have shield bash, twf, imp twf, double slice.... and at 11...
I fully agree with you : this fighter is not a good one, or even a really offensive or defensive one.
But he is still much better than a monk using a weapon, who is himself much better than a unarmed monk.
Doesn't need more to prove my point.
Besides, this fighter can move pretty easily on the battlefield, can adapt his defense and offense during combat : no opportunity from closing in a big monster with reach, having reach himself to prevent attack of opportunity while doing manoeuvers, ability to gain total cover in plain sight (eventually making him immune against attacks and targeted spells), reaction during surprise round, ...
He is somewhat correct to good in all saves, have a flexible AC, is not slowed by his armor.
Personnaly, I prefer a reach fighter (for example, a Guisarme wielding fighter), using his weapon as an improvised weapon against enemies in close range (for no weak point at close range) that can fully control a 10x10 area in the battlefield (attack of opportunity, prevent movement, doing manoeuvers), and attacking in 12x12 area. But it's a little more optimized and not really close to a monk.
I fully agree with you : this fighter is not a good one, or even a really offensive or defensive one.
But he is still much better than a monk using a weapon, who is himself much better than a unarmed monk.
Doesn't need more to prove my point.
At damage, with shoudl not be a surprise. THat is the point of fighters.
But my monk have better AC, CMD, Saves and can defelct and attack per turn. WHo survives that solo CR +3 encounter?
EDIT: I do agree that is not particularly an optimized fighter build. I would like to see a ranger and a paladin in the competitions too.
He have roughly the same AC and roughly similar saves. As he does much more damage, he is going to be targeted by less attacks (or spells), and by such, his survival is actually better than the monk.
The fighter I presented is much more mobile in combat (not in rough move speed, but in moving through the battlefield and targeting and affecting everything in that battlefield). He can adapt his style depending on the situation (ranged, defense-style, offense style), though is not specialized in those style (even a fighter is limited in feats).
At 11th level, he will have 25% more DPR (1 more attack, with less attack bonus), the ability to prevent movement by special attack of opportunity (with a fighter only feat) and will be even less bothered by his armor. And that's not accounting for the new magic items he could have acquired.
So yes, he's not optimized. But he's way more useful than a monk in any party he could be.
No, no, no. You don't start saying "Well I could have done this or I could have done that..." And yes, your power will go up at 11, but so will the monk. Also, the monk isn't the most optimized build I have seen either, but it is one you might reasonably see in the wild. They don't need to be perfect!
Honestly I thought we were going to do this at level 12, but whatever you guys want. I have some ideas on how I would start an encounter with a Green Dragon, which I could throw out there to give some depth to the encounter other than a flat, featureless plain.
So I was thinking, for those with character builds that are interested, I could throw out a situation and you say how your character would react. We can then analyze how well things might work, then just make some assumptions and move to the next round. Actual rolling of dice would be too swingy and I don't think we have time to run every encounter 20 times to get a good average.
At damage, with shoudl not be a surprise. THat is the point of fighters.
But my monk have better AC, CMD, Saves and can defelct and attack per turn. WHo survives that solo CR +3 encounter?
He have roughly the same AC and roughly similar saves. As he does much more damage, he is going to be targeted by less attacks (or spells), and by such, his survival is actually better than the monk.
The difference in AC between the monk I posted and the fighter you posted is 7 point. It is by far not a small difference.
But lets not talk about it, lets measure against some CR 12 monsters and see what happens.
By the way, I would like to compare the monk against some other class beside the fighter. It is not like the fighter is the strongest martial or something.
Against CR 12 monsters, you have to fight against AC of 26 in average, and that means the DPR of the monk drop considerably (the DPR of the fighter a little only).
EDIT : I made the calculations with the same formula.
Against AC of 26, the DPR are (simple attack/full attack) :
Monk : 15.5/40.9
Fighter : 33.7/57.5
Against AC of 28, the DPR are (simple/full) :
Monk : 12.7/29.1 (9.5/31.5 without PA)
Fighter : 29.7/49.6
Against AC of 30, the DPR are (simple/full) :
Monk : 9.9/20.8 (7.35/22.8 without PA)
Fighter : 25.8/41.6
The fighter does more damage to target that have between 21 and 41 AC. The monk does more damage when targeting way lower CR monsters (20 AC and below, so CR-3 enemies), or when targeting monsters that can only be hit on a 20 (because he have more attacks per round).
For the AC difference, you forgot to mention that my fighter can actually be above yours if he start fighting defensively with a shield (and he is able to do it, just not doing it all the time).
You also added the barkskin bonus with the natural armor amulet, while those two doesn't add up. Detail, I know (it's 1 ac).
For the AC difference, you forgot to mention that my fighter can actually be above yours if he start fighting defensively with a shield (and he is able to do it, just not doing it all the time).I am pretty sure that if you do this your DPR will be lower than the monk.
Actually, he would be on par.
With his tower shield, his AC raise by 4, and attack bonus drop by 2. His damage drop by 6 (one handed weapon, so -3 full attack and -3 from strength).
So, his DPR is :
AC 24 : 30.2/46.2 (65% more than the monk's in single attack, but 12% worse in full)
AC 26 : 27.0/39,8 (74% more in single, 3% worse in full)
AC 28 : 23.9/33,5 (88% more in single, 15% better than the monk in full).
AC 30 : 20.7/27.1 (twice the monk's in single, 30% more in full)
As you can see, he does not lag behind, far from it.
If the monster move (as in a real encounter, not a "hit me while I hit you and see which one dies first" encounter), the fighter is actually a total winner, avoiding completly attacks of opportunity and doing more than twice the monk damage (or little less than twice the damage when carrying his tower shield).
Honestly I think having him fight above-CR opponents is overkill. O.o
It shouldn't require that if the encounters are run to the hilt.
Actually, I would say from experience it is in above-CR encounters that the monk really struggles hardest to contribute. If you are in the boss-fight you need all hands pitching in, after all.
Two styles can work... you can pick up combat style master and switch for free at the end of your turn... go from an offensive to a defensive style. Like switching from boar style to snake style
Way too many feats involved though for this to be a reasonable choice. Maybe if you are going all the way to 20.
It would work if monks could pick style feats as bonus feats (without ignoring the prerequisites). It certainly would have made sense to do this, but no, creating the dip-class Mater of Many Styles was how they handled the issue...honestly, Paizo, as if half the monk archetypes weren't already bad enough...
I'm somewhat curious as to why people don't just use the Talented Monk. It seems to be a much better chassis for allowing people to create a wide range balanced monks that are capable of contributing, rather than being pigeon-holed into a few splat book archetypes.
I think that's because the whole point of this thread is the effectiveness of the Pathfinder RPG monk. Including 3PP material like that would only prove the monk weakness further.
Alright, here is the situation.
You are headed over the river and through the woods to grandmother's house. It is now hour 2 of a 4 hour trip. You are over the bridge and headed through dense forest on a fairly well traveled, 10' wide trail. Your completely generic friends, Cleric, Fighter and Wizard are with you.
What's your Perception check?
Edit: If the dragon takes 10, the DC will be 20. Unless I'm missing something.
Just to throw my own, completely unoptimized, level 10 CORE only monk into the ring. Here is Bob:
Bob
Human Monk 10
LN Medium Humanoid
Init: +3
Senses: Perception +16
DEFENSE
AC: 24 (10, +3 armor, +3 Dex, +3 Wis, +3 monk, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
Touch: 21
Flat-footed: 20
HP: 93 (10d8+40)
Fort: +11 (7 base, +2 Con, +2 resistance)
Ref: +12 (7 base, +3 Dex, +2 resistance)
Will: +12 (7 base, +3 Wis, +2 resistance) (+2 vs. enchantment)
Defensive Abilities: Improved Evasion, Immune to disease
OFFENSE
Speed: 60 ft.
Melee:
Unarmed Strike +15 (4d6+7/x2)
Kama +14 (2d6+6/x2)
Flurry of Blows Unarmed +16/+16/+11/+11 (2d6+7/x2)
Flurry of Blows Kama +15/+15/+10/+10 (1d6+6/x2)
Ranged:
Shuriken +12 (1d2+8/x2)
Flurry of Blows Shuriken +13/+13/+8/+8 (1d2+8/x2)
Special Attacks: Stunning Fist, 11/day (DC 18)
STATISTICS
Str: 22 +6 (16 base, +2 racial, +2 level, +2 enhancement)
Dex: 16 +3 (14 base, +2 enhancement)
Con: 14 +2 (12 base, +2 enhancement)
Int: 10 +0 (10 base)
Wis: 16 +3 (14 base, +2 enhancement)
Cha: 8 -1 (8 base)
BAB: +7/+2; CMB: +16; CMD: 33
Feats: Blind Fight, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Far Shot, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Medusa’s Wrath, Point Blank Shot, Stunning Fist, Toughness, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Skills: Acrobatics +16(+38 Jump)(10r), Climb +19(10r), Knowledge (Religion) +8(5r), Perception +16(10r), Sense Motive +11(5r), Stealth +16(10r)
Languages: Common
Special Qualities: +2 to Str, Bonus Feat, +1 Skill per level
Class Abilities: Improved Evasion, Fast Movement, Flurry of Blows, High Jump, Improved Unarmed Strike, Ki Pool (Magic/Cold iron/Silver/Lawful, 8 pts), Maneuver Training, Purity of Body, Slow Fall (50’), Still Mind, Stunning Fist (10/day), Wholeness of Body (Heal 10, 2ki)
Equipment:
Monk Outfit (0gp)
Handy Haversack (2,000gp)
Bedroll (0.1gp)
Waterskin (1gp)
Amulet of Mighty Fists +1 (4,000gp)
Belt of Physical Perfection +2 (16,000gp)
Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 (4,000gp)
Bracers of Armor +3 (9,000gp)
Cloak of Resistance +2 (4,000gp)
Monk’s Robe (13,000gp)
Ring of Protection +1 (2,000gp)
20 +1 Adamant Shuriken (2,004gp)
6 Potion of Cure Light Wounds (300gp)
3 Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds (900gp)
57,205.1
Money: 4,794.9gp
62,000gp
Oh, I forgot distance in the Perception DC. Say the dragon is hiding 40' from the road. That would increase the DC to 24.
ALrighty, so first build. Going to be a Barbarian that focuses on Grappling.
Human Invulnerable Rager Barbarian 10
Init: +1
Senses: Perception +13
DEFENSE
AC: 18 (10,+5 armor, +1 dex, +2 ring)
Raging AC: 13 (-3 reckless abandon, -2 rage)
Touch: 13 (raging: 8)
Flat-footed: 17 (raging 12)
HP: 108 (Raging 128)
Fort: +13 (+15 raging, +19 vs. Spells)
Ref: +7 (+11 vs. spells while raging)
Will: +6 (+8 raging, +12 vs. Spells)
DR 5/-
Fire Resist: 2
OFFENSE
Speed: 40 ft.
Not Raging Melee: Scimitar +14/+9(18-20/x2) 1d6+19
Raging Melee: Scimitar +19/+14(18-20/x2) 1d6+22, Bite +16(20/x2) 1d6+7
STATISTICS
Str: 23 +6 (27 during rage) (+2 racial, +1 level, +4 enhancement)
Dex: 13 +1
Con: 16 +3 (20 during rage) (+1 level)
Int: 10 +0
Wis: 10 +0
Cha: 10 +0
BAB: +10/+5; CMB: +16 ; CMD: 29
While Raging: CMB: +18 (+27 on Grapple);CMD: 29 (32 for Grapple, Bull Rush, Trip, Drag)
Feats:
Human: Improved Unarmed Strike
1: Improved Grapple
3: Power Attack
5: Extra Rage Power: Reckless Abandon
7: Greater Grapple
9: Rapid Grappler
Rage Powers:
2: Animal Fury
4:Hive Totem
Feat: Reckless Abandon
6:Hive Totem Resilience
8:Hive Totem Toxicity
10:Superstition
Features:
Permanent Endure Elements
Fast Movement
Equipment:
+1 Chain Shirt of Brawling (4250)
Belt of Giant's Strength +4 (16000)
+1 Anchoring Scimitar(9,300)
Ring of Protection +2 (8,000)
Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver-Grapple(4,000)
Armbands of the Brawler (1,000)
Cloak of Resistance +3 (9,000)
Amulet of Mighty Fists - Ghost touch (4,000)
Sandals of the Lightest Step (5000)
Rest in potions or kept as walking around money
Combat Tactics:
Rage, Close distance, grapple target, pin target, stab target with scimitar repeatedly until dead.
Perception check on a take 10 is 23, so I would not see the beasty
Oh, I forgot distance in the Perception DC. Say the dragon is hiding 40' from the road. That would increase the DC to 24.
Okay. I would like to point out that I put this in before you posted your character. So I did not do it just to screw you over. ;-)