Flat-footed against traps?


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

For FAQing and discussion.

Are you supposed to be considered flat-footed against a trap that attacks you?


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Ravingdork wrote:

For FAQing and discussion.

Are you supposed to be considered flat-footed against a trap that attacks you?

Probably, if you're unaware of the trap seems like you should be.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

But there's nothing in the rules that explicitly state this, at least, not that I'm aware of.

Most of the time the rules say it targets your AC or saves, not flat-footed AC or saves--hence the need for a little clarification.


Flat footed is a condition that affects your AC, not a separate type of AC. The easiest way to figure out if you are flat footed against a trap is to ask yourself would you be flat footed vs. a creature in the same circumstance. For example if you are walking down a corridor and you are attacked by a trap, or creature you did not see then you would flat footed. If on the other hand you were walking down the same corridor and spotted the trap or creature with a weapon drawn and pointed out you, and you approached it before it attacked you would not be flat footed. In the second instance combat has already began when you moved to approach the situation so you are no longer flat footed.

Sczarni

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Seems like that would really nerf Trap Sense, which is a dodge bonus, and you lose dodge bonuses anytime you lose your Dexterity bonus... oh, nevermind, Rogues and Barbarians usually have Uncanny Dodge.

Proceed.


Nefreet wrote:

Seems like that would really nerf Trap Sense, which is a dodge bonus, and you lose dodge bonuses anytime you lose your Dexterity bonus... oh, nevermind, Rogues and Barbarians usually have Uncanny Dodge.

Proceed.

This guy's hit the nail on the head. You're a sitting duck for traps on the first attack. If it's one of those multi-round traps, you could take action and regain the bonus.

This is one of the few ways Rogues can be better scouts than other classes (e.g. rangers)


Just had this question come up. You can't treat traps like creatures in the same situation, unless you're going to have the trap make a stealth and perception check to see if there's a surprise round, and then an initiative check. RAW, I'd say it's just an attack (no slot in the turn order, and goes off of normal (not flat-footed, not touch) AC unless the trap explicitly notes being a touch attack or denying the target their Dex bonus.


jhunterj wrote:
Just had this question come up. You can't treat traps like creatures in the same situation, unless you're going to have the trap make a stealth and perception check to see if there's a surprise round, and then an initiative check. RAW, I'd say it's just an attack (no slot in the turn order, and goes off of normal (not flat-footed, not touch) AC unless the trap explicitly notes being a touch attack or denying the target their Dex bonus.

Traps don't have stealth? What is the detect DC then? If you don't detect something then you don't detect it and can't react to it when it happens. I'd say flat-footed AC makes perfect sense.


I agree. Flat footed.


Being unaware does not cause you to be flat-footed. There is nothing intrinsic to all traps that would cause you to be flat-footed.


Quantum Steve wrote:
Being unaware does not cause you to be flat-footed. There is nothing intrinsic to all traps that would cause you to be flat-footed.

I wholeheartedly disagree. If being unaware doesn't cause you to be flat-footed then how does the rogue get his sneak attack versus an unaware opponent?

We know for a fact he does, because they issued a big errata to stealth to try and make it clear that it functions in that matter. Now, since traps have a detection DC it makes sense to treat them in the same manner as a creature using stealth. You can't have it work two different ways for what is essentially the same thing.

Also, there is something intrinsic. Being hidden. All traps are hidden, though to varying degrees. Some traps are hidden much better than others. Those that are well hidden and remain undetected would attack versus your flat-footed AC. Those less well hidden would be spotted by you, and hopefully you would find a way to not set it off. But you might, and if you do you would retain your full AC bonus.

Liberty's Edge

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I think it is a fair adjudication to let traps attack against flat-footed AC.


Claxon wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
Being unaware does not cause you to be flat-footed. There is nothing intrinsic to all traps that would cause you to be flat-footed.
I wholeheartedly disagree. If being unaware doesn't cause you to be flat-footed then how does the rogue get his sneak attack versus an unaware opponent?

Unaware denies Dex, it does not cause flat-footed. Armor Class

PRD wrote:
Sometimes you can't use your Dexterity bonus (if you have one). If you can't react to a blow, you can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC. If you don't have a Dexterity bonus, your AC does not change.

Being unaware does not cause you to be flat-footed.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It depends on the type of traps. Some use an attack form in which case you would be denied dex.

Other cases it's an explosion, so reflex saves are the rule.


Re-reading the thread, it seems to me some posters may have been confusing flat-footed with denied DEX.

You are absolutely denied DEX to AC if you are unaware of the trap. You are not flat-footed.


I thought flat footed was the condition of being caught unaware. Meaning flat footed is the fancy name for being caught unaware. Flat footed=caught unaware/unable to react.

Edit-
In the link a couple of posts up, if u go under unaware combatants, it states unaware combatants are flatfooted because they have reacted yet. So yeah unaware=flatfooted.

Liberty's Edge

Quantum Steve wrote:

Re-reading the thread, it seems to me some posters may have been confusing flat-footed with denied DEX.

You are absolutely denied DEX to AC if you are unaware of the trap. You are not flat-footed.

In the grand scheme of life, the difference is inconsequential.


Redneckdevil wrote:

I thought flat footed was the condition of being caught unaware. Meaning flat footed is the fancy name for being caught unaware. Flat footed=caught unaware/unable to react.

Edit-
In the link a couple of posts up, if u go under unaware combatants, it states unaware combatants are flatfooted because they have reacted yet. So yeah unaware=flatfooted.

Unaware combatants are flat-footed only because they haven't yet acted in combat. Not having acted in the first round of combat is the most common way of becoming flat-footed. Outside of combat this has no bearing.

Being unaware does not itself cause you to be flat-footed.

HangarFlying wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:

Re-reading the thread, it seems to me some posters may have been confusing flat-footed with denied DEX.

You are absolutely denied DEX to AC if you are unaware of the trap. You are not flat-footed.

In the grand scheme of life, the difference is inconsequential.

Flat-footed is a specific condition that, among other things, causes a character to lose their DEX bonus to AC, but they are not the same thing.

  • Uncanny Dodge prevents a character from becoming flat-footed, but not from losing Dex to AC.

  • A Flat-Footed character is unable to make Attacks of Opportunity, merely being denied Dex to AC does not.

  • A Kensai Magus can add his INT to damage against flat-footed opponents, but not against opponents who have merely lost their DEX bonus to AC.

  • Certain feats, such as Cockatrice Strike, work against flat-footed opponents, but not against opponents who have merely lost their DEX bonus to AC.

  • An Arcane Trickster's Surprise spells adds sneak attack against flat-footed opponents, but not against opponents who have merely lost their DEX bonus to AC.

These are just off the top of my head.
The difference is subtle, to be sure, but significant.

Liberty's Edge

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Ok sure, but do any of those apply to traps? If not, then no, there is no significant difference in this context.


Consider what happens if you set it off trying to disarm it. I am not at all sure you should be "flat footed" at that point.

Liberty's Edge

Well, no, if they're aware of it, of course not.


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HangarFlying wrote:
Ok sure, but do any of those apply to traps? If not, then no, there is no significant difference in this context.

If being unaware of a trap caused you to become flat-footed then Uncanny Dodge would prevent you from becoming flat-footed. If not, it would not prevent you from losing your DEX bonus to AC. Pretty significant, don't you think?


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If you've detected or found the trap and it attacks you (say...you fail badly to disarm it, or you opt to have the party meat shield just take one for the team so everyone else can get past), not flatfooted.

If you have no idea the trap is there and it attacks you, flatfooted.


The thing is, merely aware doesn't keep you from being flatfooted in combat in general; you're flatfooted until your turn. I suppose the theory is that "combat" starts when you start disarming.


Flat footed unless you've found the trap by beating the perception DC or have uncanny dodge


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Right, traps don't have stealth, they have a detect DC. The character triggering the trap has already acted this round, since the trap fires with them in initiative order (if the trap is a combatant, the trap readied its attack until just after the character's action on its trigger).

I see and understand the reasoning for a house rule to use flat-footed AC, but I haven't found anything in the rules about it.

But continuing this line of thought:

What if you trigger a trap while in a combat? There's now an arrow flying at your head; if it was fired by a trap, flat-footed AC, but if it was fired by an enemy aiming at your head, regular AC?

Does the trap worry about firing into melee?

If a rogue readied an attack with the condition of the trap going off, do they get sneak attack damage if they attack when the trap goes off, since you're denied your Dex bonus?


Claxon wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
Being unaware does not cause you to be flat-footed. There is nothing intrinsic to all traps that would cause you to be flat-footed.

I wholeheartedly disagree. If being unaware doesn't cause you to be flat-footed then how does the rogue get his sneak attack versus an unaware opponent?

We know for a fact he does, because they issued a big errata to stealth to try and make it clear that it functions in that matter. Now, since traps have a detection DC it makes sense to treat them in the same manner as a creature using stealth. You can't have it work two different ways for what is essentially the same thing.

Also, there is something intrinsic. Being hidden. All traps are hidden, though to varying degrees. Some traps are hidden much better than others. Those that are well hidden and remain undetected would attack versus your flat-footed AC. Those less well hidden would be spotted by you, and hopefully you would find a way to not set it off. But you might, and if you do you would retain your full AC bonus.

The rogue gets sneak attack due to loss of dex to AC, NOT flat-footed. It just so happens that being flat-footed causes a loss of dex to AC, however if someone has an ability that allowed them to remain flat-footed but retain their dex to AC then sneak attack would not work against them while they were flat-footed.

Liberty's Edge

Quantum Steve wrote:
HangarFlying wrote:
Ok sure, but do any of those apply to traps? If not, then no, there is no significant difference in this context.
If being unaware of a trap caused you to become flat-footed then Uncanny Dodge would prevent you from becoming flat-footed. If not, it would not prevent you from losing your DEX bonus to AC. Pretty significant, don't you think?

I am perfectly fine with allowing someone who has Uncanny Dodge to retain their DEX against a trap. So, no there is no significant difference.


jhunterj wrote:
Does the trap worry about firing into melee?

Well, if it isn't going to, then there has to be some sort of % roll to see if it hits the foe you're in melee with instead. Melee is supposed to be a lot more dynamic and fluid than the "stand still and spam full attack" result that we the players see, and shooting at someone so close to another person means a risk of accidentally hitting the other guy. The -4 is to aim carefully (or a bit "wide", if you prefer) to avoid any such risk. If the trap isn't going to care (and it really shouldn't), you'd have to invent rules for hitting others in the melee instead.

I'd just keep the -4 for simplicity's sake, even if it doesn't make much sense.


Ravingdork wrote:

But there's nothing in the rules that explicitly state this, at least, not that I'm aware of.

Most of the time the rules say it targets your AC or saves, not flat-footed AC or saves--hence the need for a little clarification.

I would try to use common sense. If a turret trap wasn't detected and it pops out and shoots at you, you're flat-footed. Now you know it's there, so you won't be flat-footed against it's next attack.


Kimera757 wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

But there's nothing in the rules that explicitly state this, at least, not that I'm aware of.

Most of the time the rules say it targets your AC or saves, not flat-footed AC or saves--hence the need for a little clarification.

I would try to use common sense. ...

but also

StreamOfTheSky wrote:
Melee is supposed to be a lot more dynamic and fluid than the "stand still and spam full attack" result that we the players see,

Right, melee is more dynamic and fluid, and combatants are more dynamic and fluid than mechanical traps. Combatants might catch you flat-footed. Flat-footed is for when you're "unable to react normally to the situation", and when you trigger a trap, you can react normally to the situation, as unhealthy as that situation may be. Unless a trap specifically denies the target its Dex bonus, my common sense leads me to roll its attack against "normal" AC, remembering that the AC and attack mechanics already abstract away a lot of that "stand still and watch the trap's weapon come at you" result that the players see.


Quantum Steve wrote:
Redneckdevil wrote:

I thought flat footed was the condition of being caught unaware. Meaning flat footed is the fancy name for being caught unaware. Flat footed=caught unaware/unable to react.

Edit-
In the link a couple of posts up, if u go under unaware combatants, it states unaware combatants are flatfooted because they have reacted yet. So yeah unaware=flatfooted.

Unaware combatants are flat-footed only because they haven't yet acted in combat. Not having acted in the first round of combat is the most common way of becoming flat-footed. Outside of combat this has no bearing.

Being unaware does not itself cause you to be flat-footed.

HangarFlying wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:

Re-reading the thread, it seems to me some posters may have been confusing flat-footed with denied DEX.

You are absolutely denied DEX to AC if you are unaware of the trap. You are not flat-footed.

In the grand scheme of life, the difference is inconsequential.

Flat-footed is a specific condition that, among other things, causes a character to lose their DEX bonus to AC, but they are not the same thing.

  • Uncanny Dodge prevents a character from becoming flat-footed, but not from losing Dex to AC.

  • A Flat-Footed character is unable to make Attacks of Opportunity, merely being denied Dex to AC does not.

  • A Kensai Magus can add his INT to damage against flat-footed opponents, but not against opponents who have merely lost their DEX bonus to AC.

  • Certain feats, such as Cockatrice Strike, work against flat-footed opponents, but not against opponents who have merely lost their DEX bonus to AC.

  • An Arcane Trickster's Surprise spells adds sneak attack against flat-footed opponents, but not against opponents who have merely lost their DEX bonus to AC.

These are just off the top of my head.
The difference is subtle, to be sure, but significant.

There is no such thing as outside or inside of combat. There is no combat flag, this is not an MMO. We handwave a lot of things out of combat because it would be tedious to explain every move, standard and free action you do outside of combat but everything applies in both situations. And hey, there are times where I've had to explain every single action I make because the situation was extremely delicate any every motion could changed everything, this was not "combat".

When you are unaware, you are flat footed. You are not prepared to dodge, you are not moving, you are sitting there like an idiot gaping at a wall because you know there is a trap there metagaming but your character failed his perception check. The surprise round is nothing other than being attacked when you are unaware, the reason it is restricted to a standard is because doing anything else takes too long and you would be noticed before you finished your actions, allowing them to react. The trap is effectively surprise rounding you, you are flat footed unless you have something that prevents it explicitly.


jhunterj wrote:
Kimera757 wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

But there's nothing in the rules that explicitly state this, at least, not that I'm aware of.

Most of the time the rules say it targets your AC or saves, not flat-footed AC or saves--hence the need for a little clarification.

I would try to use common sense. ...

but also

StreamOfTheSky wrote:
Melee is supposed to be a lot more dynamic and fluid than the "stand still and spam full attack" result that we the players see,

Right, melee is more dynamic and fluid, and combatants are more dynamic and fluid than mechanical traps. Combatants might catch you flat-footed. Flat-footed is for when you're "unable to react normally to the situation", and when you trigger a trap, you can react normally to the situation, as unhealthy as that situation may be. Unless a trap specifically denies the target its Dex bonus, my common sense leads me to roll its attack against "normal" AC, remembering that the AC and attack mechanics already abstract away a lot of that "stand still and watch the trap's weapon come at you" result that the players see.

It'd be a pretty bad trap if you had time to see the trap's weapon lumber slowly towards you. The traps in pathfinder aren't usually Indiana Jones traps, you do not have time to react to a scythe sweeping out from a slot in the wall or an arrow firing from a concealed hole any more than you have time to react to a person hiding in a bush sweeping a scythe out at you or firing a crossbow from said bush.

Where does the disconnect begin? They are doing the exact same thing except one is wielded by something made of flesh and one is wielded by something made of gears (or flesh! Could be animated).


Quote:
It'd be a pretty bad trap if you had time to see the trap's weapon lumber slowly towards you.

This is where I disagree. Such surprising traps have been overused since D&D began. That's especially true of traps that exist on their own and not as part of en encounter.

Take the humble pit trap. Boring? It depends. In any edition from OD&D to Pathfinder to 4e it can be boring. If there's a random pit trap in the dungeon, you fall in, waste some healing spells/wand charges/healing surges, and get out. It's nothing but fear-inducing attrition. Put that trap in a room colonized by kobolds, preferably right in front of the crates the kobold archers using for cover, and it becomes part of the encounter. The fighter decides to get in their faces and chop them into a fine paste, barreling through the crates to do so. CLANG! That's the sound of the fighter falling into the pit trap. Now the party has to rescue him... or fight without his presence. A decent catch 22.

Quote:
The traps in pathfinder aren't usually Indiana Jones traps, you do not have time to react to a scythe sweeping out from a slot in the wall or an arrow firing from a concealed hole any more than you have time to react to a person hiding in a bush sweeping a scythe out at you or firing a crossbow from said bush.

But on your main point I agree. If that trap suddenly swung down, and no one made the skill check to notice it first, it's a surprise! Follow the surprise rules in that case.


Kimera757 wrote:
Quote:
It'd be a pretty bad trap if you had time to see the trap's weapon lumber slowly towards you.

This is where I disagree. Such surprising traps have been overused since D&D began. That's especially true of traps that exist on their own and not as part of en encounter.

Take the humble pit trap. Boring? It depends. In any edition from OD&D to Pathfinder to 4e it can be boring. If there's a random pit trap in the dungeon, you fall in, waste some healing spells/wand charges/healing surges, and get out. It's nothing but fear-inducing attrition. Put that trap in a room colonized by kobolds, preferably right in front of the crates the kobold archers using for cover, and it becomes part of the encounter. The fighter decides to get in their faces and chop them into a fine paste, barreling through the crates to do so. CLANG! That's the sound of the fighter falling into the pit trap. Now the party has to rescue him... or fight without his presence. A decent catch 22.

Quote:
The traps in pathfinder aren't usually Indiana Jones traps, you do not have time to react to a scythe sweeping out from a slot in the wall or an arrow firing from a concealed hole any more than you have time to react to a person hiding in a bush sweeping a scythe out at you or firing a crossbow from said bush.
But on your main point I agree. If that trap suddenly swung down, and no one made the skill check to notice it first, it's a surprise! Follow the surprise rules in that case.

About the pit trap bit, this isn't really an AC targeting trap and not what I'm making a point about, but yes, pit traps and the like are boring. Hardly unavoidable though, you can get a reflex save for many.

Amusing traps are ones like symbol of insanity, my party got hit by one just last week. My paladin, our beastmaster and his bear all succumbed to insanity and the rest of the party had to figure out what was going on while we randomly hit them.

The Exchange

CRB PG 416: wrote:

Creatures that succeed on a Perception
check detect a trap before it is triggered. The
DC of this check depends on the trap itself.
Success generally indicates that the creature
has detected the mechanism that activates
the trap, such as a pressure plate, odd gears
attached to a door handle, and the like.
Beating this check by 5 or more also gives
some indication of what the trap is designed
to do.

PCs get their standard Perception check to notice traps - should they fail, just like a surprise round, PCs should be Flat-footed for any attacks.

If you wanted to be a nice GM, you could give the PC that is about to be hit, one final automatic check - (maybe ask what their Perception is if they take a 10 for a flat casual skill check) - if they fail that, then they would be flat-footed when you skewer them on impending Doom that is about to visit the inside of their skulls...


yumad wrote:
The traps in pathfinder aren't usually Indiana Jones traps, you do not have time to react to a scythe sweeping out from a slot in the wall or an arrow firing from a concealed hole any more than you have time to react to a person hiding in a bush sweeping a scythe out at you or firing a crossbow from said bush.

And I think this is the core of my disagreement. Traps in Pathfinder do give you time to react, either through a saving throw or through a melee or missile attack vs. your AC. Sometimes that AC would explicitly be your touch AC and sometimes explicitly your flat-footed AC, and where it's not specified, it would be your normal AC. None of these reactions mean that the trap's weapon is lumbering slowly towards you.


It is not in the book so I don't think it is RAI, but it would make traps a little more dangerous. Right now they are not taken seriously enough IMHO.


jhunterj wrote:
yumad wrote:
The traps in pathfinder aren't usually Indiana Jones traps, you do not have time to react to a scythe sweeping out from a slot in the wall or an arrow firing from a concealed hole any more than you have time to react to a person hiding in a bush sweeping a scythe out at you or firing a crossbow from said bush.
And I think this is the core of my disagreement. Traps in Pathfinder do give you time to react, either through a saving throw or through a melee or missile attack vs. your AC. Sometimes that AC would explicitly be your touch AC and sometimes explicitly your flat-footed AC, and where it's not specified, it would be your normal AC. None of these reactions mean that the trap's weapon is lumbering slowly towards you.
wraithstrike wrote:
It is not in the book so I don't think it is RAI, but it would make traps a little more dangerous. Right now they are not taken seriously enough IMHO.

These arguments are both valid if you don't choose to use standard combat rules with traps. Since certain traps make attack rolls with assigned attack bonuses, I see no problem with applying the standard combat rules to them.


Simon Legrande wrote:
These arguments are both valid if you don't choose to use standard combat rules with traps. Since certain traps make attack rolls with assigned attack bonuses, I see no problem with applying the standard combat rules to them.

I choose not to house rule other standard combat rules onto traps. I don't have traps roll initiative, for instance, nor allow them to flank, nor take a penalty for firing into melee. I see no problem with others' house rules that select other combat rules (such as the ability to catch characters flat-footed) to apply them, though, but I don't see the advantage in adding it.


jhunterj wrote:
yumad wrote:
The traps in pathfinder aren't usually Indiana Jones traps, you do not have time to react to a scythe sweeping out from a slot in the wall or an arrow firing from a concealed hole any more than you have time to react to a person hiding in a bush sweeping a scythe out at you or firing a crossbow from said bush.
And I think this is the core of my disagreement. Traps in Pathfinder do give you time to react, either through a saving throw or through a melee or missile attack vs. your AC. Sometimes that AC would explicitly be your touch AC and sometimes explicitly your flat-footed AC, and where it's not specified, it would be your normal AC. None of these reactions mean that the trap's weapon is lumbering slowly towards you.

There are situations where attacks call for targeting specific types of AC too (guns hit touch AC), but the ones that don't aren't always attacking normal AC regardless of situation. So, no, just like any attack roll, if it's not specified it works like a regular attack roll.

Traps

"Traps that attack with arrows, sweeping blades, and other types of weaponry make normal attack rolls, with specific attack bonuses dictated by the trap's design."

Hail of Arrows Trap CR9

Effect Atk +20 ranged (6d6); multiple targets (all targets in a 20-ft. line)

Where do you see anywhere on the trap page that is explicitly says trap attack rolls are non-standard and unless otherwise specified, attack regular AC regardless of situation? I certainly don't see that. I see it saying it makes a regular attack roll just like everyone else, a single attack roll is a standard action. You are being attacked by a standard action when you are unaware, you are flat-footed.


jhunterj wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:
These arguments are both valid if you don't choose to use standard combat rules with traps. Since certain traps make attack rolls with assigned attack bonuses, I see no problem with applying the standard combat rules to them.
I choose not to house rule other standard combat rules onto traps. I don't have traps roll initiative, for instance, nor allow them to flank, nor take a penalty for firing into melee. I see no problem with others' house rules that select other combat rules (such as the ability to catch characters flat-footed) to apply them, though, but I don't see the advantage in adding it.

Not applying regular combat rules to traps is houseruling unless you can show me where it says that traps do not follow standard combat rules in a rulebook. FAQs and personal opinions of developers are not relevant and are RAI.


HangarFlying wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
HangarFlying wrote:
Ok sure, but do any of those apply to traps? If not, then no, there is no significant difference in this context.
If being unaware of a trap caused you to become flat-footed then Uncanny Dodge would prevent you from becoming flat-footed. If not, it would not prevent you from losing your DEX bonus to AC. Pretty significant, don't you think?
I am perfectly fine with allowing someone who has Uncanny Dodge to retain their DEX against a trap. So, no there is no significant difference.

come on Hangar, that's pretty disingenuous of you, don't you think? To say that there's no difference, and when shown that difference basically ignore it.

It'd be one thing if you were saying that you are flat footed and not just denied dex, but it's another when you say it's inconsequential. This implies that you agree, but you just think that those difference don't matter in this situation. You then flip a 180, and take the opposite position.


yumad wrote:
Not applying regular combat rules to traps is houseruling unless you can show me where it says that traps do not follow standard combat rules in a rulebook. FAQs and personal opinions of developers are not relevant and are RAI.

(a) I don't have to convince you (nor you me). Barring an official answer from Paizo, traps in my games go off basic AC, and that's my reading of the rules as written.

(b) Your criterion is extreme (and not RAW). Show me where it says not to have traps roll for initiative. Show me where it says traps do not flank. Show me where it says that characters don't have to make an acrobatics check to move through a trap's square. The rules do not list all the things that you don't do.

Show me where it says that traps do follow the standard combat rules in a rulebook. The combat rules talk about "everybody" (not "every trap") and "combatants" (not "traps").


yumad wrote:
There is no such thing as outside or inside of combat. There is no combat flag, this is not an MMO.

There is some kind of thing like a combat flag. It drives the Inquisitor's Judgment duration and the Cavalier's Challenge duration, for example.


jhunterj wrote:
yumad wrote:
Not applying regular combat rules to traps is houseruling unless you can show me where it says that traps do not follow standard combat rules in a rulebook. FAQs and personal opinions of developers are not relevant and are RAI.

(a) I don't have to convince you (nor you me). Barring an official answer from Paizo, traps in my games go off basic AC, and that's my reading of the rules as written.

(b) Your criterion is extreme (and not RAW). Show me where it says not to have traps roll for initiative. Show me where it says traps do not flank. Show me where it says that characters don't have to make an acrobatics check to move through a trap's square. The rules do not list all the things that you don't do.

Show me where it says that traps do follow the standard combat rules in a rulebook. The combat rules talk about "everybody" (not "every trap") and "combatants" (not "traps").

a) That's not rules as written, enjoy your houserules.

b) If you have combat, and you don't have specific rules for something, you fall back on more general rules. That's how the system works. You cannot have specific rules for every system because the rules would be many times bigger than they are currently.

Traps do not flank because they do not threaten, they do their actions regardless of your responses and then they are done. Traps do not roll initiative because when a trap is armed it is readying an action, when you trigger it, it's initiative becomes just before your initiative (or after, however readied action initiative works). The acrobatics roll is to avoid a sentient thing actively trying to prevent you from getting through its square and is orthogonal to the discussion.

You would think a game designer would know how to interpret rules and how to fall back on more general rules when there is nothing specifically written for the entry. Perhaps that's why you are freelance.


jhunterj wrote:
yumad wrote:
There is no such thing as outside or inside of combat. There is no combat flag, this is not an MMO.
There is some kind of thing like a combat flag. It drives the Inquisitor's Judgment duration and the Cavalier's Challenge duration, for example.

Those are exception scenarios, they are specifically written for those abilities, there is no combat flag in the general rules and there is especially no ruling stating that "in or out of combat" is different for flat footed. Either way, your argument about no flat-footedness out of combat is invalid.


The rules are written with the assumption that players are not braindead and know how to interpret them. Just because something is *not* specified does not mean that the opposite is true, it simply means that they were trying to save real estate on paper in the Core Rulebook.

A trap, by definition, is something that you're likely to be unaware of and will therefore be flat-footed to. Any other ruling is a houserule.


Swift016 wrote:

The rules are written with the assumption that players are not braindead and know how to interpret them. Just because something is *not* specified does not mean that the opposite is true, it simply means that they were trying to save real estate on paper in the Core Rulebook.

A trap, by definition, is something that you're likely to be unaware of and will therefore be flat-footed to. Any other ruling is a houserule.

It's not stated that I am not invincible and not a god, so therefore I must be.

Going to go to a PFS game and tell them I'm a deity.

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