Query on new limits to number of free actions in faq and Many Shot

[Drogon]

FlatHead wrote:

This is going to hurt my gunslinger (musket master) that has invested in the snapshot feat tree and combat reflexes.

I can either make a full attack with three shots or save them up for AOOs."

Why?

The rule states "per turn" not "per round." Free actions you perform on your turn are independent of free actions you perform on others' turns.

This should not harm your AOO usage, at all.

FlatHead wrote:

I guess I will have to play more strategically when dividing up my shots.

However, I will not lie: the idea of the game becoming more strategic, rather than automatic, is appealing.

If the game has gone so far down the road that all actions and rules are so fully defined that any given turn is "automatic" then the game has lost some of its luster, I think. Strategic use of resources has long been a part of D&D, and 4E's bend toward automation is what made everyone dislike it so much. I, for one, LIKE the idea that the PFRPG is strategic, instead.

[FlatHead]

Drogon wrote:

Why?

The rule states "per turn" not "per round." Free actions you perform on your turn are independent of free actions you perform on others' turns.

This should not harm your AOO usage, at all.

If I understand the faq correctly it specifically says rounds.

Faq entry...

Spoiler:

Although there are no specific rules about how many free actions you may take in a round, it is reasonable for a GM to limit you to performing 5 free actions per round if each is a different free action, or perhaps 3 free actions per round if two or more are the same free action.

Anyways I am not bitter about the change. I would probably retrain some feats though.

[thejeff]

I think we need a FAQ answer on this FAQ.

Is it really intended that the Free Actions limit iterative (or otherwise gained, flurry, Rapid Shot, etc) ranged attacks to 3 per round?

[Drogon]

FlatHead wrote:

Drogon wrote:

Why?

The rule states "per turn" not "per round." Free actions you perform on your turn are independent of free actions you perform on others' turns.

This should not harm your AOO usage, at all.

If I understand the faq correctly it specifically says rounds.

Faq entry...
** spoiler omitted **

Anyways I am not bitter about the change. I would probably retrain some feats though.

Hm. Fair. I was reading the rule book, where it uses the word "turn." That'll learn me...

[Cao Phen]

No one is specifically saying that it is only 3 free actions a round. No one is specifically saying that it is only 5 free actions a round. No one is specifically saying that it is only 20 free actions a round. What the FAQ is specifically saying is that it is up the the DM's decision on how many free action a person can use. So one DM can decide that it can be only 4 reloads on a pistol, while next day/week, another DM might decide that it can be a lucky 7.

So now the question is, what can you do to make the DM happy so that you can get as much free actions as possible?

I suggest home-made cookies. Everyone likes cookies. =)

[Seraphimpunk]

So the DM at a table with 6 archers can decide to speed up game play, by arbitrarily limiting the number of free actions per round at his table to 3. Game play will speed up, players will be angry, but hey, according to the FAQ, the GM can do that.

[MrSin]

Cao Phen wrote:

So now the question is, what can you do to make the DM happy so that you can get as much free actions as possible?

I suggest home-made cookies. Everyone likes cookies. =)

I have the sudden urge to DM more often... Cheesecake or caffeine related sweets are my poison of choice btw. I mean... if you were wondering.

[thejeff]

Vincent Colon-Roine wrote:

So the DM at a table with 6 archers can decide to speed up game play, by arbitrarily limiting the number of free actions per round at his table to 3. Game play will speed up, players will be angry, but hey, according to the FAQ, the GM can do that.

I have a strong suspicion that game play would be slowed down, mostly by the arguments that would erupt.

Nor would nerfing a party of archers that way speed things up as much as weaken the party.

[Sean K Reynolds]

I've removed some posts. Remember the first rule of the Paizo message boards: don't be a jerk. Suggesting that the "FAQ team" "hates crossbow users" is definitely a jerk thing, and doesn't help have a reasonable, rational conversation.

[BigNorseWolf]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

I've removed some posts. Remember the first rule of the Paizo message boards: don't be a jerk. Suggesting that the "FAQ team" "hates crossbow users" is definitely a jerk thing, and doesn't help have a reasonable, rational conversation.

Is the FAQ ruling intended to limit a characters number of attacks by limiting their required secondary actions (drawing arrows,drawing bolts reloading guns as a free action, or quickdrawing daggers)

[Sitri]

I could be wrong, but I think arrows are largely unaffected, gunslingers were limited (probably intentionally), crossbows and thrown weapons took a hit as collateral damage while trying to limit the gunslinger. Does that sound about right?

I admit that I too thought the gunslinger shenanigans were a bit absurd. There is a definite part of me that likes to powergame, but I refused to dual wield, double barrel, weapon cord on my gunslinger because it just seemed too silly to me.

[Sean K Reynolds]

It's not intended to limit bows or crossbows, but there has been some abuse in certain firearms combos, and (because there's "no limit" to how many free actions you can take in a round) some GMs feel they aren't empowered to set limits on how many crazy gun-related actions they can take in a round.

In the design team's discussions, I brought up that the "5 or perhaps 3" suggestion would limit high-speed archers. But, given that the FAQ is just reiterating the Core Rulebook rule that the GM determines how many free actions per round is "reasonable," and that the rules already expressly allow an archer to fire as many times per round as his BAB indicates, the FAQ is not changing any rules in the game.

In a perfect world, the rulebook would state that drawing ammunition to fire it as part of an attack isn't an action at all (if it's a free action, and you have unlimited free actions in a round, it doesn't need to be defined as a free action because doing so has no effect).

[Kurthnaga]

I don't yet have a high level ranged character, but if I saw a GM attempt to enforce, "You only get 3 reloads a round so you can only attack with 3 of your iteratives.", I would probably get up, leave, and refuse to play with that GM ever again. It's a rule that seems toxic to the very purpose of many classes/archetypes in combat. I don't believe that is the intent of the rule, I read it as, "Feel free to speed along your players if their free actions somehow unnecessarily bog down gameplay.", but my interpretation could be plain wrong. If the FAQs purpose is to limit the power of ranged attackers than I very much question the decision.

[Cheapy]

If the reason for the FAQ was basically due to questions surrounding dual-wielding double-pistol gunslingers, which is true from what I recall, are there any plans to change any of the chains of rules that allow that once the UC errata hits?

Or is this one of those "You'll see once it comes out!" things?

[Sitri]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

t's not intended to limit bows or crossbows, but there has been some abuse in certain firearms combos, and (because there's "no limit" to how many free actions you can take in a round) some GMs feel they aren't empowered to set limits on how many crazy gun-related actions they can take in a round.

In the design team's discussions, I brought up that the "5 or perhaps 3" suggestion would limit high-speed archers. But, given that the FAQ is just reiterating the Core Rulebook rule that the GM determines how many free actions per round is "reasonable," and that the rules already expressly allow an archer to fire as many times per round as his BAB indicates, the FAQ is not changing any rules in the game.

In a perfect world, the rulebook would state that drawing ammunition to fire it as part of an attack isn't an action at all (if it's a free action, and you have unlimited free actions in a round, it doesn't need to be defined as a free action because doing so has no effect).

AHHH, I was mistaken in my earlier post, I didn't realize drawing ammunition was a free action.

Thank you for the clarification though about the intent and how it should be adjudicated.

[Sean K Reynolds]

I don't believe we're planning on errata-ing any rules relating to this. It's just that with some combos, it's easy to get into a situation where certain activities become free actions and essentially bypass the action economy used to balance classes, and it's a good thing to gently remind the GM that (as the Core Rulebook states) it's okay to set limits on what is a reasonable number.

[Cheapy]

That's pretty reasonable.

Thanks for taking time out of your Saturday to respond to this

[BigNorseWolf]

Hmmm lets see. I don't play gunslingers. Whats your typical two fisted pistol wielding billy the kid need in the way of free actions. I think this would severely limit the character.

Even if you combine both drops into one action this looks pretty limiting

Fire right
Fire left
Drop right---free action
Reload right-- free action
Retrieve right with weapon cord--- free action
Drop left-- free action
reload left-- free action
retrieve left-- (free action)
Fire Right (rapid shot)
Fire Left (second BAB)

And starts round 2 unloaded with weapons in hand

Drop right---free action
Reload right-- free action
Retrieve right with weapon cord--- free action
Drop left-- free action
reload left-- free action

Fire Right

Fire left

Stuck with guns in hand.

[BigNorseWolf]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

It's not intended to limit bows or crossbows, but there has been some abuse in certain firearms combos, and (because there's "no limit" to how many free actions you can take in a round) some GMs feel they aren't empowered to set limits on how many crazy gun-related actions they can take in a round.

Thank you!

[thejeff]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

It's not intended to limit bows or crossbows, but there has been some abuse in certain firearms combos, and (because there's "no limit" to how many free actions you can take in a round) some GMs feel they aren't empowered to set limits on how many crazy gun-related actions they can take in a round.

In the design team's discussions, I brought up that the "5 or perhaps 3" suggestion would limit high-speed archers. But, given that the FAQ is just reiterating the Core Rulebook rule that the GM determines how many free actions per round is "reasonable," and that the rules already expressly allow an archer to fire as many times per round as his BAB indicates, the FAQ is not changing any rules in the game.

In a perfect world, the rulebook would state that drawing ammunition to fire it as part of an attack isn't an action at all (if it's a free action, and you have unlimited free actions in a round, it doesn't need to be defined as a free action because doing so has no effect).

Thanks for shedding some light on the intent. Which is pretty much as I figured.

I'm bothered by the weapon cord, two pistol juggling tactics too. More from a "That's ridiculous" standpoint than a balance one. I haven't tested it to see how overpowered it is.

Again, while I'm aware it's only a guideline, it still seems a very broad approach to a pretty small target. Even within the guideline, I'd still be very uncomfortable saying to the archer, "You're fine. Take as many free actions as you need." while telling the pistolero "You only get 3. Deal with it."
I'd be much happier telling the guy with two double-barrelled pistols dangling from his wrists by weapon cords that he's being silly and he should stop it. :)

[ciretose]

Jiggy wrote:

To what "crowd" are you referring, LazarX?

The crowd that made a ruling like this necessary, and who are now complaining about it.

[thejeff]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Hmmm lets see. I don't play gunslingers. Whats your typical two fisted pistol wielding billy the kid need in the way of free actions. I think this would severely limit the character.

Even if you combine both drops into one action this looks pretty limiting

Fire right
Fire left
Drop right---free action
Reload right-- free action
Retrieve right with weapon cord--- free action
Drop left-- free action
reload left-- free action
retrieve left-- (free action)
Fire Right (rapid shot)
Fire Left (second BAB)

And starts round 2 unloaded with weapons in hand

Drop right---free action
Reload right-- free action
Retrieve right with weapon cord--- free action
Drop left-- free action
reload left-- free action

Fire Right

Fire left

Stuck with guns in hand.

That first one was 6 free actions. Which means you can't get off that last shot.

Interesting to think that the 3 free action limit doesn't apply because they're not all the same action. Though going by the 2 shots & 1 speech example, the intent seems to be 3 free actions if there's any duplication.
So how about (I also assume you'd reload the one in your hand, so order is a little different):
Fire right(1st Iter)
Fire left (2Weapon)
Drop right---free action
Reload left-- free action
Fire left(rapid)
Reload left-- free action
Fire left(2nd Iter)

And you're left with both weapons empty and one dangling.
Next round you're probably better off ignoring the two-weapon thing and just reloading and firing one weapon. With Rapid Shot & BaB 10+ you get 3 shots anyway.

Of course, if the real problem is double barreled pistols, those take 2 free actions to load, so it's even slower. To use improved 2 weapon fighting with double barreled pistols and end with both weapons held and loaded so you can repeat again the next round.
Fire right(1st Iter)
Fire left (2Weapon)
Drop right---free action
Reload left-- free action
Reload left-- free action
Fire left(rapid)
Reload left-- free action
Reload left-- free action
Fire left(2nd Iter)
Reload left-- free action
Reload left-- free action
Retrieve Right --free
Drop Left --free
Reload right --free
Reload right --free
fire right (impr 2 Weapon)
Reload right --free
Reload right --free
retrieve left. --free

15 free actions. Seems to me if you wanted to cut down on the worst abuses you could slap a much higher limit than 3, not have to worry about archers or crossbowmen or even sane gunslingers and still keep the gunslinger silliness under control.

[MrSin]

ciretose wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

To what "crowd" are you referring, LazarX?

The crowd that made a ruling like this necessary, and who are now complaining about it.

Careful, we don't need to make villains and paint targets. I thought most of the people complaining where ones worried about ramifications relation to archery, rather than the guys who fired 16 bullets a round.

[Michael Brock]

Moved to the rules forum as this is not PFS specific.

[Michael Brock]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Hmmm lets see. I don't play gunslingers. Whats your typical two fisted pistol wielding billy the kid need in the way of free actions. I think this would severely limit the character.

Even if you combine both drops into one action this looks pretty limiting

Fire right
Fire left
Drop right---free action
Reload right-- free action
Retrieve right with weapon cord--- free action
Drop left-- free action
reload left-- free action
retrieve left-- (free action)
Fire Right (rapid shot)
Fire Left (second BAB)

And starts round 2 unloaded with weapons in hand

Drop right---free action
Reload right-- free action
Retrieve right with weapon cord--- free action
Drop left-- free action
reload left-- free action

Fire Right

Fire left

Stuck with guns in hand.

Retrieving a weapon with a weapon cord is a swift action. Also keep in mind you don't get more attacks than iterative attacks that your character is eligible for. There is a fairly high chance that the character is going to misfire somewhere in there, as well as have pretty decent amount of negative modifiers to hit (double digit negatives I believe). That's also a ton of GPs the character just spent in ammo.

[Cao Phen]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Hmmm lets see. I don't play gunslingers. Whats your typical two fisted pistol wielding billy the kid need in the way of free actions. I think this would severely limit the character.

Even if you combine both drops into one action this looks pretty limiting

Fire right
Fire left
Drop right---free action
Reload right-- free action
Retrieve right with weapon cord--- free action
Drop left-- free action
reload left-- free action
retrieve left-- (free action)
Fire Right (rapid shot)
Fire Left (second BAB)

And starts round 2 unloaded with weapons in hand

Drop right---free action
Reload right-- free action
Retrieve right with weapon cord--- free action
Drop left-- free action
reload left-- free action

Fire Right

Fire left

Stuck with guns in hand.

Retrieving a weapon with a weapon cord is a swift action. With Improved and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (Pretty much Level 11), the layout will be like this:

- Fire Right - First
- Fire Left - First
- Drop Left
- Reload Right
- Fire Right - Rapid
- Reload Right
- Fire Right - Second
- Reload Right
- Fire Right - Third
- Reload Right
- Drop Right
- Retrieve Left - Weapon Cord
- Reload Left
- Fire Left - Second
- Reload Left
- Fire Left - Third
- Reload Left

Ending with Left in hand, Right dropped, both loaded.

7 Shots with Dual Pistols. 14 Shots if each were Double-Barreled Pistols.

Attack Roll would be Two-Weapon Fighting with two One-Handed Weapons (-4), Rapid Shot(-2), Shooting both Barrel of the Gun (-4). With that, applied before any bonuses, you will get:
+1/+1/+1/+1/+1/+1/-4/-4/-4/-4/-9/-9/-9/-9

Greater Two-Weapon Fighting needs a base 19 DEX. Gunslinger with the BAB of +11. Adding Weapon Focus and Point-Blank Shot to the mix. Most likely both will be at least +1:

+19/+19/+19/+19/+19/+19/+14/+14/+14/+14/+9/+9/+9/+9

By comparison, a Ranger with Rapid/Manyshot will have this at Level 11:

- Shoot Arrow x2 - Manyshot
- Shoot Arrow - Rapid Shot
- Shoot Arrow - Second
- Shoot Arrow - Third

5 Shots with a Bow.

[MrSin]

Cao Phen wrote:

By comparison, a Ranger with Rapid/Manyshot will have this at Level 11:

- Shoot Arrow x2 - Manyshot
- Shoot Arrow - Rapid Shot
- Shoot Arrow - Second
- Shoot Arrow - Third

5 Shots with a Bow. Hasted would make it 6 Shots.

If your a Zen Archer or Sohei with a bow its 5 from flurry at 11 and you can add another for ki. Don't play them so I'm not keen on what feats/spells work with them.

[blackbloodtroll]

Just to repeat:

Nothing has actually changed.

This is not putting forth anything new.

The suggested numbers are no more concrete than all PCs must have blue eyes, as far as rules go.

Nothing has changed.

[BigNorseWolf]

Michael Brock wrote:

Retrieving a weapon with a weapon cord is a swift action.

Hmmmmm. makes me wonder how the two gunners have gotten this far.

Quote:

Also keep in mind you don't get more attacks than iterative attacks that your character is eligible for.

And two weapons and rapid shot, which seem to be on the cookie cutter pistol popping gunslinger. The -s are made up for by attacking touch AC. (which tends to stay static or even drop as you level)

Quote:

That's also a ton of GPs the character just spent in ammo.

We're pathfinders. Crashing local economies is the least we could do!

[Cao Phen]

MrSin wrote:

Cao Phen wrote:

By comparison, a Ranger with Rapid/Manyshot will have this at Level 11:

- Shoot Arrow x2 - Manyshot
- Shoot Arrow - Rapid Shot
- Shoot Arrow - Second
- Shoot Arrow - Third

5 Shots with a Bow. Hasted would make it 6 Shots.

If your a Zen Archer or Sohei with a bow its 5 from flurry at 11 and you can add another for ki. Don't play them so I'm not keen on what feats/spells work with them.

Can not Rapid/Manyshot with a Flurry.

[BigNorseWolf]

- Fire Right - First
- Fire Left - First
- Drop Left Free action 1. Free action of dropping 1
- Reload Right Free action 2 Free action of reloading 1
- Fire Right - Rapid
- Reload Right Free action 3 Free action of reloading 2.
- Fire Right - Second
- Reload Right Free action 4 Free action of reloading 3.
- Fire Right - Third
- Reload Right- Can't reload (out of reload free actions)
- Drop Right Free action 5
- Retrieve Left - Weapon Cord Swift action
- Reload Left Can't reload, out of free actions and out of reloading free actions.
- Fire Left - Second
- Reload Left
- Fire Left - Third
- Reload Left

[thejeff]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

- Fire Right - First

- Fire Left - First
- Drop Left Free action 1. Free action of dropping 1
- Reload Right Free action 2 Free action of reloading 1
- Fire Right - Rapid
- Reload Right Free action 3 Free action of reloading 2.
- Fire Right - Second
- Reload Right Free action 4 Free action of reloading 3.
- Fire Right - Third
- Reload Right- Can't reload (out of reload free actions)
- Drop Right Free action 5
- Retrieve Left - Weapon Cord Swift action
- Reload Left Can't reload, out of free actions and out of reloading free actions.
- Fire Left - Second
- Reload Left
- Fire Left - Third
- Reload Left

Not quite. Judging by the example of 2 reloads and one talking free action, you only get 3 total free actrions if you do anything twice. So 3 shots, end with empty guns. And you get just as many if you don't use 2 pistols.

(Obviously, for the purpose of this example, I'm using the guidelines as if they were strict rules, as no doubt some GMs will do.)

[Fake Healer]

15th level pistolero with double-barrel pistol and weapon cords.
pistol out in the right hand, left dangling, both loaded.
fire rh- both barrels
reload both as 2 free actions
fire rh- both barrels
reload both as 2 free actions
fire rh- both barrels
reload both as 2 free actions
fire rh- both barrels
reload both as 2 free actions (so you are ready with this gun next round)
Drop RH gun, free action, retrieve LH gun, swift action
fire lh- both barrels
reload both as 2 free actions
fire lh- both barrels
reload both as 2 free actions
fire lh- both barrels
reload both as 2 free actions

12 shots, 15 free actions, 1 swift action.

Had a guy in my group do this and it was ridiculous.

[ciretose]

Fake Healer wrote:

15th level pistolero with double-barrel pistol and weapon cords.

pistol out in the right hand, left dangling, both loaded.
fire rh- both barrels
reload both as 2 free actions
fire rh- both barrels
reload both as 2 free actions
fire rh- both barrels
reload both as 2 free actions
fire rh- both barrels
reload both as 2 free actions (so you are ready with this gun next round)
Drop RH gun, free action, retrieve LH gun, swift action
fire lh- both barrels
reload both as 2 free actions
fire lh- both barrels
reload both as 2 free actions
fire lh- both barrels
reload both as 2 free actions

12 shots, 15 free actions, 1 swift action.

Had a guy in my group do this and it was ridiculous.

Which is exactly why the ruling was made...

[MrSin]

ciretose wrote:

Which is exactly why the ruling was made...

Or maybe a bunch of people hit the FAQs button? That said, there really wasn't a ruling. More so a suggestion.

[Ravingdork]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

It's not intended to limit bows or crossbows, but there has been some abuse in certain firearms combos...

I'm curious to know what you and/or the design team consider to be "firearms abuses."

I've only seen combos (like the juggling pistoleer) that took gunslingers from semi-crappy to quite viable.

Being cheesy =/= abuse.

[Fake Healer]

thejeff wrote:

Not quite. Judging by the example of 2 reloads and one talking free action, you only get 3 total free actrions if you do anything twice. So 3 shots, end with empty guns. And you get just as many if you don't use 2 pistols.

(Obviously, for the purpose of this example, I'm using the guidelines as if they were strict rules, as no doubt some GMs will do.)

Yeah, I can understand how the Gunslinger needed a FAQ to fix it, but limiting free actions isn't IMO how to do it. Make Double barreled pistols usable as a standard action to fire both barrels, allow precision damage to apply to only one of the barrels, make them only use touch AC when within 30',.....those all could've helped to fix the gunslinger without screwing them out of iterative attacks and TWFing attacks. Screwing a class out of iterative attacks with a FAQ, even a suggestion FAQ, is just a crappy way to fix a class that was broken. Especially when the FAQ is gonna screw over a lot of other parts of the game.

[blackbloodtroll]

ciretose wrote:

Fake Healer wrote:

15th level pistolero with double-barrel pistol and weapon cords.

pistol out in the right hand, left dangling, both loaded.
fire rh- both barrels
reload both as 2 free actions
fire rh- both barrels
reload both as 2 free actions
fire rh- both barrels
reload both as 2 free actions
fire rh- both barrels
reload both as 2 free actions (so you are ready with this gun next round)
Drop RH gun, free action, retrieve LH gun, swift action
fire lh- both barrels
reload both as 2 free actions
fire lh- both barrels
reload both as 2 free actions
fire lh- both barrels
reload both as 2 free actions

12 shots, 15 free actions, 1 swift action.

Had a guy in my group do this and it was ridiculous.

Which is exactly why the ruling was made...

There is no ruling.

Just a reminder of what already exists.

There is no new limit.

[ciretose]

Ravingdork wrote:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

It's not intended to limit bows or crossbows, but there has been some abuse in certain firearms combos...

I'm curious to know what you and/or the design team consider to be "firearms abuses."

I've only seen combos (like the juggling pistoleer) that took gunslingers from semi-crappy to quite viable.

Being cheesy =/= abuse.

Being cheesy does equal being cheesy, which isn't a design goal.

If it was put in because the Devs think it is stupid for gunslingers to be walking around dangling extra firearms from weapon cords, that to me would be a perfectly valid reason for the ruling.

I'm sick and tired of the "I imagined it, it can happen, how dare you say it's stupid" crowd.

No one really believes that when they were sitting around thinking about the gunslinger they were going "You know what would be cool. A guy who looks like a marionette puppeteer with handguns dangling everwhere who takes 15 free actions!"

Just stop.

[BigNorseWolf]

thejeff wrote:

Not quite. Judging by the example of 2 reloads and one talking free action, you only get 3 total free actrions if you do anything twice. So 3 shots, end with empty guns. And you get just as many if you don't use 2 pistols.

Ugh. Thats even worse, and cuts down on witty repartee. Gunslingers will all have to be the quiet, obsidian eyed killer types?"

[Bizbag]

FlatHead wrote:

This is going to hurt my gunslinger (musket master) that has invested in the snapshot feat tree and combat reflexes.

I can either make a full attack with three shots or save them up for AOOs.

I guess I will have to play more strategically when dividing up my shots.

Except it's not going to hurt your gunslinger or affect him at all, because it wasn't a ruling. It was a reminder that the GM has the power to limit how many free actions you can reasonably take, not that there is a Hard Limit on free actions you can take. Reloading your gun so you can shoot it the number of times your BAB/Abilities allow is not unreasonable. Reloading 50 guns because you have Quickdraw and drop them after they're loaded for your men to take as they go by is unreasonable, and your GM might limit it.

[BigNorseWolf]

Ravingdork wrote:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

It's not intended to limit bows or crossbows, but there has been some abuse in certain firearms combos...

I'm curious to know what you and/or the design team consider to be "firearms abuses."

I've only seen combos (like the juggling pistoleer) that took gunslingers from semi-crappy to quite viable.

Being cheesy =/= abuse.

Keep in mind that your semi viable is most peoples "Holy bleep he's gone to plaid."

[BigNorseWolf]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

There is no ruling.

Just a reminder of what already exists.

There is no new limit.

This came in from the pathfinder society organized play forums, where there might be such a limit, or such a limit might be imposed from DM to dm, letting the billy the kid type get off half to a third of his attacks.

[Fake Healer]

Ravingdork wrote:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

It's not intended to limit bows or crossbows, but there has been some abuse in certain firearms combos...

I'm curious to know what you and/or the design team consider to be "firearms abuses."

I've only seen combos (like the juggling pistoleer) that took gunslingers from semi-crappy to quite viable.

Being cheesy =/= abuse.

that little attack routine I posted above would have done an AVERAGE damage per round of around 400 without any crits figured in. He had 4d6 of precision damage per barrel and something like +20 damage on each shot. 12 shots 12d8+48d6+240 all targeting touch ACs. He was dropping several decently touch enemies in a round. He could destroy most bosses in a round with no help from anyone and usually went first because he had stupidly high dex.

It is horribly broken at that level with a pistolero.

[Ravingdork]

So what? A druid ay similar levels can do as much or more with a SINGLE attack.

A spellcaster can do 200-300 damage at those levels to DOZENS of targets WITHOUT AN ATTACK ROLL.

The gunslinger was perfectly balanced as is. Now, in games where GMs agree with the designers' idea of what is reasonable, gunslingers will be as dead in the water as rogues.

[BigNorseWolf]

Ravingdork wrote:

So what? A druid ay similar levels can do as much or more with a SINGLE attack.

.

A pounce or one big chomp?

[MechE_]

Ravingdork wrote:

A spellcaster can do 200-300 damage at those levels to DOZENS of targets WITHOUT AN ATTACK ROLL.

Guess I've never seen an "optimized blaster" - how would one pull this off, exactly?

Also, I'm not really a huge fan of this FAQ. It seems there were other ways to go about fixing the root of the problem, and this one is fairly likely to cause other problems in the process of fixing one problem.