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Hey all,
From your experiences as a player or gm, what has been the typical killer of rogues in your campaign or session?
Ultimately, I'm wondering whats the best focus for a rogue to stay alive throughout their career. (In a PFS setting, but would love to hear your thoughts on outside of a PFS setting also).
So, feel free to post an answer or share a story of some of the most often ways rogues have died at your table!
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My experience is that rogues usually die from over-ambitious tactics, like winning initiative and running into a group of enemies ahead of everyone else to get a sneak attack. Then the monsters get to go and, lacking any other enemy they know of, tear the hapless rogue to shreds.
Last session a level 4 barbarian hit a PC rogue for 54 points of damage with a crit. Needless to say the Rogue died - but then so would any other PC.
We just finished RoTRL AE a month ago and our rogue survived until the final confrontation. He mostly used Spring attacks and did his best to stay out of melee which I think strongly contributed to his longevity. For the record he died by being disintegrated in the final battle. Failed Save.
Fighter: attack the monster!
Rogue : move around to attack themonster! flank sandwhich! 1 sneak attack!
Other monster: moves up to flank the rogue Pounceflank sandwhich with cheeeeeeese.
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The ones in my group usually die because they get rerolled as something else. Not sure if that counts...
Considering they have low AC and abysmal saves... Both.
At very low levels (1~5), they survive quite well, actually... From 6th to 9th level, their AC starts to lag behind. They usually die of damage because SoD are not all that common.
From 10th level and beyond, anything with poor saves is not likely to last long. And while AC loses a bit of its steam, it's still very useful to stop iterative attacks.
So... mid/high level Rogues die of whatever gets to them first... If they are very careful and manage to stay out of melee, they can manage to not get smashed into smithereens. Unfortunately, avoiding the need to make saves is much more difficult, so that tends to be their most common cause of death, at least IME.
Avoiding over eagerness is a good way to stay alive. A single sneak attack and then tumbling away/spring attack can keep the damage steady. Going full blender mode depends if you can avoid getting squished before you pull it off.
UMD with say a wand of Mirror Image can eliminate a few full attacks and some blur potions.
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In my experience it's usually failed saves. I've seen one rogue fail against a Haunt in RotRL. I"ve seen another botch a trap disarming, then fail the Reflex save versus the damage... but make the Fort save versus massive damage. Kind of funny, since he failed at the things rogues are supposed to be good at, yet succeeded where at the one he should have been most likely to fail.
Actually, "death by trap" is probably pretty common, since it's the situation the rogue is most likely to get overconfident in...
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Our rogue's been pretty lucky so far, but he almost got digested by tendriculouses a couple sessions back. Yes, plural. Got him out of the first's mouth and the second swallowed him again.
Our Rogue and Ninja don't die because I always burn a hero point to save them...
QuickDraw
Stealth
Not being stupid, with the bonus of having no class pressure to be self sacrificing and stuff.
Why the last three? You can draw your weapons as part of a movement at level 2(or just carry them a majority of the time), and no one should really have the class pressure to sacrifice themselves.
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Why the last three? You can draw your weapons as part of a movement at level 2(or just carry them a majority of the time), and no one should really have the class pressure to sacrifice themselves.QuickDraw
Stealth
Not being stupid, with the bonus of having no class pressure to be self sacrificing and stuff.
QuickDraw for the surprise round, to deal damage at range, guess spring loaded wrist sheaths covers this for some items.
Stealth = not being seen and targeted first.
Not being stupid covers rushing in for a flank, with you surounded by enemies. The class pressure to help people who are lost causes or at a more dangerous time. Paladins, clerics of specific dietiesfor example. or other setting specific organization ties and stuff. Rogues tend to be outside of society (morally or socially).
Considering they have low AC and abysmal saves... Both.
At very low levels (1~5), they survive quite well, actually... From 6th to 9th level, their AC starts to lag behind. They usually die of damage because SoD are not all that common.
Level 6 Rogue, Serpent's Skull.
Fails save vs compulsion (along with everyone in the party but moi, the Monk).
Has the ultimate bad luck to roll a Nat 20 on the save vs Panicked (which everyone else failed again, but the Monk. Including the Cleric. -.-).
Is in the middle of 6 Spriggans, Large size, alone.
Poor bastard never had a chance.
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Paladins, clerics of specific dietiesfor example. or other setting specific organization ties and stuff. Rogues tend to be outside of society (morally or socially).
That's more or less irrelevant. A rogue can have just as much if not more pressure than a cleric based upon character and game.
It's more accurate to say no "mechanical" pressure which affect all divine casters save perhaps oracles.
Most rogues i've seen don't die so much as just give up when they see rangers and bards pull off every trick they can without the unique ability of being turned to paste the moment they enter melee.
What rogues do have is the mechanical pressure of requiring certain mechanical circumstances in order to remain relevant in damage compared to their peers. This forces them into stupid risks more than anything.
...what has been the typical killer of rogues in your campaign or session?
Their own curiosity (or some will say, stupidity) :)
seriously, I don't play PFS, but Rogues need to worry about their low Fort and Will saves, both of which can cripple their their primary defense; mobility.
Axe crits. Any type of axe really. Its disturbing because all of the rogues I've seen die have only died cause of axes and critting axes...
Wolverine.
Goblins had ambushed a wagon the PCs were following. The PCs came upon the remains and started searching around for clues. The 2nd-level rogue was looking under a bush and disturbed the wolverine who was otherwise digesting the remains of the carthorse. An angry CR2 wolverine averages 21.5 damage per round if all attacks hit, as they did.
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From your experiences as a player or gm, what has been the typical killer of rogues in your campaign or session?
Ultimately, I'm wondering whats the best focus for a rogue to stay alive throughout their career. (In a PFS setting, but would love to hear your thoughts on outside of a PFS setting also).
#1: becoming split off from the party (because they're so cock-sure of their sneaking ability that they think they can do anything...which works until it doesn't. Which is follow by....
#2: Failed fort or will save, or massive damage, or the former leading to the latter.
Example: "Let make the rogue Invisible, and he'll sneak around inside!" PCs go with that plan; rogue is invisible but noisy, and gets Steve McQueened by the bad guy's rogue who begins trailing the footprints in the dust. PC rogue (clumsy human) continues to blow skill checks, and gets shanked by a poison dagger in a surprise round, blowing a fort save for unconsciousness. Next round, he fails another fort save to coup de grace.
-- He literally didn't know what killed him. (Nobody did, except his killer.)
This particular rogue failed because he tried to do a ranger's job. Most other rogues fail because they try to do a fighter's job.
If you're going to sneak off alone, at least be a halfling so you have a chance.
Make sure to up your Will Save some how. I've had a Rogue that failed a Will Save against a Hold Person at about the 3rd round of combat. He wasn't ahead of the party or anything, but the enemy cleric did target him. Alas, one of the enemy fighters was right next to my rogue so that when it was the enemies fighter's turn, he coup-de-grace'd my rogue. It was a sad day :(
Frustration
Sneaky: "Ok, on round 1 I'll carefully creep around the goblin , drop a smoke bomb to hide, and then dart over there and throw this poisoned dart *moves*
Grock: Grock power attak goblin for 1d12+138. Grock crit. Grock sad only roll a 1, 3 and a 2 on damage dice. Orc head not achieve geosynchronous orbit. Make Grock sad.
Sneak: Ok, I'll move up behind the next goblin and delay so i can sneak attack....
Merlin: DC 30 persistent baleful polymorph.
Orc: "Ribbit?"
Sneaky: Gods dammit...
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Grock: Grock power attak goblin for 1d12+138. Grock crit. Grock sad only roll a 1, 3 and a 2 on damage dice. Orc head not achieve geosynchronous orbit. Make Grock sad.
The impressive point here is that grock hit the goblin so hard it beheaded an orc as it flew away into the stratosphere. Even more impressive is that grock's player rolled three damage dice for his 1d12 damage.
Grock's player will have to make a save versus shame as I smack him upside the head with the core book.
Do rogues really try to sneak things?
Like, don't you have to pass at least 20 stealth checks in order to go unnoticed, and autofail 70% of the time?
They try, but the stealth and lighting rules are a little wonky and no two DMs do them exactly the same way. The rogues player can't figure out when the DM will let them stealth, much less make the roll.
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Alas, one of the enemy fighters was right next to my rogue so that when it was the enemies fighter's turn, he coup-de-grace'd my rogue. It was a sad day :(
Coup de grace is a full-round action which is easily interrupted if the rogue's allies are nearby.
-- Normally this shouldn't happen in an unsplit party.
Make sure to up your Will Save some how.
Durability comparisons of 20pt builds at 4th:
STR+18 (human)
DEX:16 (15>16 @ 4th)
CON:14
INT:10
WIS:10
CHA:08
(^^^ This is a fairly typical strength-based concept whose plan is to do 4d6+8 TWF/flanking from 1st level. I pulled these stats from someone else's thread posted yesterday.)
STR-10 (halfling)
DEX+18 (17>18 @ 4th)
CON:14
INT:12
WIS:12
CHA+14
...so, what does the DEX build get in exchange for sacrificing all that dreamy early-level damage?
* AC: +2
* saves: +1/+2/+2 (+4 vs fear)
* Attack bonus: +1
* skills: +1/+3 on DEX/social
In other words, this particular halfling, relative to the strength-based human, is essentially enjoying Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude, Weapon Focus:ALL, and Skill Focus in just about everything listed on his character sheet. His penalty is having to trudge through the baby levels waiting for Agile weaponry to bring his damage up.
The comparison becomes even more skewed in favor of the halfling if both builds are minmaxed further (i.e., the halfling uses the 15,14,14,14,12,07 array with a STR:05 while the human sacks INT and CHA to start with even higher strength): the halfling will then be immediately eligible for Combat Expertise, get more skills per round, and have a far higher charisma bonuses.
Now fold in some multiclassing to accentuate the positives: the strong human dips two levels of fighter, ranger or barbarian, while the charismatic halfling dips two of paladin [divine hunter]. Halfling front-lines a headband of Alluring Charisma and is enjoying saves +4/+5/+5 over the human by 6th-ish. With Combat Expertise at BAB4-7, he's a whopping AC+7 versus a "smite buddy" relative the to human rogue/fighter, or AC+9 relative to a rogue/barbarian (AC+10 if Reckless Abandon). The human rogue/fighter forfeits a few level-bonus hitpoints for multiclassing; the halfling rogue/paladin also forfeits two, but picks up 4d6 worth of Lay on Hands.
-- The human strength rogue build essentially hopes that barbarian-style maximum DPR tactics will carry him through attrition fights despite not having half a barbarian's resilience; in PFS practice, this strategy succeeds well at low levels, then falls apart fast once big magic and powerful monsters are routinely stomping the battlefield.
Does your above halfling build account for halfling luck?
That sort of skews things a touch.
A better argument might be made with Tengu or Tiefling who are not so dissiimliar from humans nor recieve a free "cloak of resistance" at level 1.
Still for all this it doesn't really fix the class's faults. Both have to use mobility abilities that neither have in order to consistently do the kind of damage a bard can do by dint of singing good.
I know cheapy wrote an archetype that has a very good replacement to sneak attack. Unfortunately it's not OGL.
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Still for all this it doesn't really fix the class's faults.
Claiming rogues are flawed because you run them constantly into melee even though the class doesn't provide fast-track fortitude saves or d10 or d12 hitdice is like saying dwarves are flawed because they make lousy diplomats and sorcerers, and can't do much else when you dump their INT to 7 and drag them to the society ball.
-- It'll all depends on what you're trying to do with it.
A better argument might be made with Tengu or Tiefling who are not so dissiimliar from humans nor recieve a free "cloak of resistance" at level 1.
IMO tengus are a trap race for players who go rogue/ninja -- as they actually have a con penalty (so their fort save is -2 versus the halfling).
Still for all this it doesn't really fix the class's faults.Claiming rogues are flawed because you run them constantly into melee even though the class doesn't provide fast-track fortitude saves or d10 or d12 hitdice is like saying dwarves are flawed because they make lousy diplomats and sorcerers, and can't do much else when you dump their INT to 7 and drag them to the society ball.
-- It'll all depends on what you're trying to do with it.
If your rogue isn't in melee then what are they doing in combat? Sniping has its own set of problems.
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Which Precise Shot solves (see the dip comparisons).
Early sniping keeps your ass alive until you're ready for melee with awesome saves, AC and Agile weapons.
There's also Aid Another, which is not a bad play call at all in the low-level game when nobody is really that good at anything.
Face-plants? I'm far more worried about the party cleric wading in with his d8+2 melee attack at 4th than I am about my 1d6+2d6 halfling-on-flank. His AC is lower than mine; and he's a more "valuable" target from the enemy perspective.
(I have had clerics die many times; I have never lost a rogue...except that one time in a dream....)
Which Precise Shot solves (see the dip comparisons).
Early sniping keeps your ass alive until you're ready for melee with awesome saves, AC and Agile weapons.
Precise shot does not solve the 30ft. requirement for ranged sneak attack. Nor does it make your opponents flat footed. You can win initiative and knock an opponent flat out on round 1. This is of course assuming you are within 30ft. :/
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I never said said anything about ranged sneaks. At 1st and 2nd level, you basically just need to hit consistently to win. SA is nice, but unnecessary. By 3rd, you're up to SA+2d6, and a formidable melee threat *if* you kept your AC and your saves in the hunt. 10 average points of damage will drop your CL appropriate opponent half of the time (and nearly all the time if you're the "clean up" after your flank-buddy also hit him).
(..) By 3rd, you're up to SA+2d6, and a formidable melee threat *if* you kept your AC and your saves in the hunt. (..)
For Rogues, that's a pretty big "if".
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Halfling in the previous example, working along the pal2/rogX mutliclass line, looking like this at 4th:
01 pala1 [divine hunter|Precise Shot], Quick Draw
02 rogu1 SA+1d6
03 rogu2 [Evasion][finesse rogue], Two Weapon Fighting
04 rogu3 SA+2d6
0. (adventuring, pre-combat) ...MW crossbow out, loaded
1. surprise round: shoot enemy who hasn't acted yet; Att +10 versus flatfoot; damage 3d6.
1.5 (mooks into melee = drop crossbow & quickdraw blades; else shoot again if they hold back)
2. round 1: take full attack w/5' into flank if able,, else request ally create flank if turn order is ideal, then hold until he does. (Delaying also means I might be buffed.) Attack bonus +8/+8 TWF MW small shortswords; damage 2x(1d4+2d6) = ~19. Versus AC 18, I'm 75% to deal ten a round, which is quite good for a non-frontliner.
If ally is a tripper, my two attacks are +12/+12; and I am murder-minded clean-up detail with around a 60ish percent change of getting in both hits versus a typical CR-rated non-boss.
Forward to 9th, character is P2/R7 with ITWF and a pair of Agile blades dishing out something like 4x(1d4+4d6+6) in flanks. The damage thus remains serviceable at the cost of only two feats. But what'll really be keeping me alive versus Corporal Faceplant strength rogue are the much better saves, AC, and skill checks (with Acrobatics, Escape Art and Use Magic Device seeing a lot of play).
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How a Rogue Died in PFS: Another Anecdote
Setting: PCs are in a dead-end room accessed by a 5' wide corridor. The loot they were looking for is absent. As they turn to leave, the bad guys show up, and the 4th encounter Boss Fight begins.
PCs: TWF samurai w/Dangerously Curious, Oath of Vengeance paladin, DPR-maximizing rogue, wizard, and another light infantry melee ranger-something mutt. All human. The wizard has blown his wad. Healing is mostly wands and potions.
Tier: 6-7. Boss is a 9th level divine caster fronted by three lower-level S&B fighters who plug up the corridor.
Evil boss cleric leads with a high DC Confusion (Madness domain), with the ranger mutt and the rogue blowing their will saves. Next round he begins round-after-round channeling 5d6 negative energy waves into the room; and the PCs start dropping like flies when their consumables can't keep up with the damage output (it doesn't help that two of them are addlepated and can't drink their own CureMods).
The rogue and the wizard go down first on multiple failed fort-saves while the ranger eats an Empowered Searing Light. The paladin is unaffected by all this, but having a slow time motoring through the lined-up mooks. His archetype choice forfeited Channel, so he couldn't do that; and breaking off melee to LoH would let the bad guys pour into the room.
The samurai uses his Resolute and Honor in All Things abilities for two d20+4 attempts to make the Confusion will-save, and succeeds...but has to hang back to play UMD healer to the rapidly dying -- and discovers that the channels don't have the range for the far corners of the room; he saves the wizard, but is too late for the rogue (who was down, then croaked on the next 5d6 negative surge). The ranger mutt makes his fort saves while unconscious for half-damage, and manages to stay precariously above neg-CON. Fight turns when the samurai makes Acrobatics checks to run through multiple bad guy spaces to get behind the Boss, crowding him. The paladin pounds through to flank and Smites. The end.
-- That fight was a big wake-up call to a group of until-then overconfident and complacent younger players.
They try, but the stealth and lighting rules are a little wonky and no two DMs do them exactly the same way. The rogues player can't figure out when the DM will let them stealth, much less make the roll.Do rogues really try to sneak things?
Like, don't you have to pass at least 20 stealth checks in order to go unnoticed, and autofail 70% of the time?
The other problem with stealth is that as you go up in levels, there are things that will utterly shank your attempts at sneaking.
Scent
Tremorsense
Detect Heartbeat
Detect Blood
Last one is an utter BS power from some demon in the late RoTRL game. Just one of them but really, at that point you might as well have the wizard teleport everyone right on top of it
I never said said anything about ranged sneaks. At 1st and 2nd level, you basically just need to hit consistently to win. SA is nice, but unnecessary. By 3rd, you're up to SA+2d6, and a formidable melee threat *if* you kept your AC and your saves in the hunt. 10 average points of damage will drop your CL appropriate opponent half of the time (and nearly all the time if you're the "clean up" after your flank-buddy also hit him).
Eh, not really.
CR 1/2 critters start at around 10hp.
CR3 encounters can go between 30 and 45 hp.
Now in the early levels a lot of published adventures will send you against cr 1/3 critters which ahve about 6hp. LOTS of cr 1/3 critters.
Lot's critters = bad for rogues since they want to flank, but don't want to be flanked in return.
Now, just noting your above example you're a 4th level character dropping around 16 damage on a full attack assuming flank.
Without flank it's closer to 4. You're a fourth level character who can't even full attack a goblin to death.
Now given that your feats are all accounted for there's little else you can do to boost damage except smite evil (which boosts your damage by another 1 giving you an average of 19 on a boss).
Lemmy is right to point out the "if". It's basically saying that as long as things work out perfectly you will get the damage you need.
My thinking is if you rely on if to be useful in combat you are failing at your basic job in combat. Nevermind out of combat. You lost the out of combat game the moment they finalized the bard to be printed.
Now you bring the point about not being a frontline fighter. I agree. You are not.
Which leads me to believe that you should be doing something else. Given what you should be doing that should either be some form of control, support, or damage.
Welp, control and support are out (things a bard can do without any feat or specialized race). But, you do have some damage. Harrying and harassing targets of opportunity may be the game here since you feel a lack of hp and ac is an issue. But in that case you still need to deal a fairly significant amount of damage to be worth it. What you present isn't serviceable.
Frankly, I think TWF is a waste of time for rogues no matter where you go with it. You have no bonuses to attack from the class. Even a Monk has a higher if slightly penalized bonus to attack rolls. You rely on full attacks, which seems fine up until you realize you have poor mobility and no means to move and full attack (unless swordmaster).
So honestly TWF is just plain bad advice anyway. It's fine for maximizing sneak attack potential but bad if you actually want to "use" sneak attacks.
Let's consider an alternative method. One that takes accounts the weaknessses of the class and attempts to solve them without multiclassing and still doing fair damage. The only real question is. Do we want to lose trapfinding?
In my mind trapfinding is something that makes the rogue special. So we'll endeavor to keep it.
Let's go Half Orc. The reason for this is fairly clear. If I want good saves than sacred tattoo is there for me. If I want proficiencies, than we have access to falchions. But we won't use those. Don't need them. Just an option.
Next we want to solve a wekness in consistent damage. Scout solves this problem most admirably. We won't get iterative attacks until 8th so mobility is our best bet until than and scout allows us this luxury most admirably.
Let's knock out some ability scores here. You've got 25 point buy up there if my math is right. So let's hammer them out.
Str:16+2 Race = 18
Dex:14
Con:14
Int:13 + 1 ability = 14
Wis:12
Cha:10
Alrighty so pretty similar scores overall. Scork here is slightly smarter and much stronger while halfling has more charisma and more dex.
Saves at 4th right now are F:+4 R:+7 W:+3
Halfling at F:6 R:8 W:5
Oh yeah. Crushed on the saves. And, they will get higher of course once paladin levels roll in. But I'm going to ignore that because that's a strength of the paladin not of the rogue.
Anyway. Let's get to feats and talents now.
The HAlfling took Quick Draw, Weapon Finnesse and two weapon fighting. Thee are basic feats that make sense for the character to have given his switch hitting focus.
Our half orc doesn't have time for that crap. We can go two ways.
Feats:
1: Fast Learner
3: Cleave
Talents:
2: Combat Trick (Power Attack)
4: Offensive Defense
So let's talk numbers.
The halfling will have about a 19 ac by level 4. This has nothing to do with paladin. So it's all him.
Scork here will have an AC of 17 with a potential 19 against targets smacked up with his falchion during a sneak attack. All this really means of course is that his ac stays the same while charging an opponent (against that specific one at least) or gets boosted against stationary flanking foes (useful against bosses).
So, damage wise, with the falchion we're looking at around 2d4+6 damage and a +7 attack at base. Not as high as +8, I'm not a frontline fighter right?
However while flanking or charging our friend the Scork here will have a +9 attack with about 2d4+2d6+6 (~16 damage to look forward to.) With power attack running we're looking at a +8 attack with 2d4+2d6+9 damage (~19 damage)
So going back to our comparison here using H for halfling and S for Scork we get.
Full attack (No sneak)
H: Attack:+6/+6 Damage:4
S: Attack:+7(+6)* Damage:10(+13)*
One attack (No sneak)
H: Attack: +8 Damage: 2
S: Attack: +7(+6*) Damage:10(+13*)
Full attack (assume flank)
H: Attack:+8/+8 Damage:8.5/8.5 = 17
S: Attack:+9(+8*) Damage:16(+19*)
One Attack (assume Flank)
H: Attack:+10 Damage:8
S: Attack:+9(+8*) Damage:16(+19*)
*Numbers in parethesis assume power attack
Now scork is the clear winner in damage terms. Not only is he more consistent in his ability to get sneak attacks (through charging) but his numbers don't fluctuate as much. He doesn't rely on full attacks to deal more damage than the halfling. He's arguably more mobile since he can give a good smack with his falchion and still bound away with his own acrobatics score (not as impressive as the halfling's mind).
His skills don't suffer for it either. The halfling sits on a total of 30 skill points all told (we'll assume he spent his three favored class points into HP since survival is what he's aiming for). Scork however didn't multiclass to compromise his favored class or skill points so he'll be looking at 44 skill points. For those of you keeping score at home that's 11 skills out of 21 (or 15 if you just want the more or less relevant ones) that get maxed out here.
Halfling has scork beat on the things that matter to him, mainly charisma and dex based stuff chosen on dint of race and prefferred fighting style. Heck hell even crush him in stealth due to size and dex considerations. That's fine. But, we have our strangths. We intimidate just fine thank you very much, Our knowledges, sense motives, and other wisdom and intelligence based skills will do just fine. So it's more or less even when you're talking about totals in some areas.
Now defense is what we're talking about here.
We said earlier that the halfling has 19 ac. Scork will have about 17 AC (or 19 after a target has been smacked). 17 is pretty much what you expect of a rogue and sad too since 19 is actually doable for a similarly scored alchemist, magus, bard, or even melee summoner. Offensive defense helps a lot here.
Save wise the halfling has us beat even with sacred tattoo. But keep in mind he's multiclassed paladin. Without multiclassing he's pretty much
the same as our bigger friend.
So how about HP wise?
The halfling's will be around 26 hp.
The scork's will be closer to 25hp.
So no real difference here.
So ultimately the halfling didn't gain much. A boost to saves to be sure but that's all he really did. And to do this he opened himself up to the can of worms that are paladins and all the potential rolepalying issues associated with them.
Now the question becomes about the scork's future. Going into later levels we'll have about three mroe feats before ninth. Two of those will be spent on surprise follow through and combat reflexes. When we get combat reflexes we'll switch out our falchion for a longspear/cestus combo effectively increasing our working range and including the threat of our reach against enemies that will attack us. surprise follow through gives us the option of sneak attacking two targets at once or at least being able to sneak attack every time we get a chance to cleave. The third feat will likely be either dark stalker or Lunge.
And honestly? If I were playing for realz I'd drop trapfinding altogether given it's all too limited use in favor of Skulking Slayer.
And you know the sad part in all this is if I took an inquisitor or magus and ran a similar run the restults would skew fairly heavily in their direction particularly in the inquisitors case.
In any case I hope this is informative as I've just spent way too much time on this one thing.
The other problem with stealth is that as you go up in levels, there are things that will utterly shank your attempts at sneaking.Scent
Tremorsense
Detect Heartbeat
Detect BloodLast one is an utter BS power from some demon in the late RoTRL game. Just one of them but really, at that point you might as well have the wizard teleport everyone right on top of it
There's a Feat that deals with Tremorsense (Dampen Presence) but that second is one reason why Rangers utterly destroy Rogues at being Rogues (sneaky bastards).
Cast Negate Aroma before he goes scouting (or even at the start of the day since it's hour/level, and trust he doesn't get dowsed in some foul smelling substance) and boom, half of those problems are done away with.
I have no clue what Detect Heartbeat is though.
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CR3 encounters can go between 30 and 45 hp.
Now in the early levels a lot of published adventures will send you against cr 1/3 critters which ahve about 6hp. LOTS of cr 1/3 critters.
Right, which is why I confined that part of the analysis to 1st/2nd level. (And I don't think I've ever seen a 45hp adversary in PFS Tier 3-4 who wasn't a boss like a raging ogre.)
= = = = (reprise) = = = =
Durability comparisons of 20pt builds at 4th:
STR+18 (human)
DEX:16 (15>16 @ 4th)
CON:14
INT:10
WIS:10
CHA:08
(^^^ This is a fairly typical strength-based concept whose plan is to do 4d6+8 TWF/flanking from 1st level. I pulled these stats from someone else's thread posted yesterday.)
STR-10 (halfling)
DEX+18 (17>18 @ 4th)
CON:14
INT:12
WIS:12
CHA+14
...so, what does the DEX build get in exchange for sacrificing all that dreamy early-level damage?
* AC: +2
* saves: +1/+2/+2 (+4 vs fear)
* Attack bonus: +1
* skills: +1/+3 on DEX/social
In other words, this particular halfling, relative to the strength-based human, is essentially enjoying Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude, Weapon Focus:ALL, and Skill Focus in just about everything listed on his character sheet. His penalty is having to trudge through the baby levels waiting for Agile weaponry to bring his damage up.
The comparison becomes even more skewed in favor of the halfling if both builds are minmaxed further (i.e., the halfling uses the 15,14,14,14,12,07 array with a STR:05 while the human sacks INT and CHA to start with even higher strength): the halfling will then be immediately eligible for Combat Expertise, get more skills per round, and have a far higher charisma bonuses.
Now fold in some multiclassing to accentuate the positives: the strong human dips two levels of fighter, ranger or barbarian, while the charismatic halfling dips two of paladin [divine hunter]. Halfling front-lines a headband of Alluring Charisma and is enjoying saves +4/+5/+5 over the human by 6th-ish. With Combat Expertise at BAB4-7, he's a whopping AC+7 versus a "smite buddy" relative the to human rogue/fighter, or AC+9 relative to a rogue/barbarian (AC+10 if Reckless Abandon). The human rogue/fighter forfeits a few level-bonus hitpoints for multiclassing; the halfling rogue/paladin also forfeits two, but picks up 4d6 worth of Lay on Hands.
-- The human strength rogue build essentially hopes that barbarian-style maximum DPR tactics will carry him through attrition fights despite not having half a barbarian's resilience; in PFS practice, this strategy succeeds well at low levels, then falls apart fast once big magic and powerful monsters are routinely stomping the battlefield.
= = = = = = =
Lot's critters = bad for rogues since they want to flank, but don't want to be flanked in return.The DEX build was AC+2 over the strength build, so he's less likely to be hit.
I'd probably UMD something in that situation (skill w/tool for the halfling would be around +13 to activate a wand he's used before).Now, just noting your above example you're a 4th level character dropping around 16 damage on a full attack assuming flank.
Without flank it's closer to 4. You're a fourth level character who can't even full attack a goblin to death.
Now given that your feats are all accounted for there's little else you can do to boost damage except smite evil (which boosts your damage by another 1 giving you an average of 19 on a boss).It boosts my AC.
...as long as things work out perfectly you will get the damage you need.Making things work out is a helluvalot easier when your skills and defenses are better. I.e., if I'm not hurt yet because the bad guys whiffed last round (that being explained by the better AC), I'm more likely to tempt an AoO or Acrobatics getting into ideal position.
You lost the out of combat game the moment they finalized the bard to be printed.That's like claiming bards lost the combat game the moment any other martial class was invented, and disparaging them accordingly. (I find it odd the halfling is being critiqued this way given that that his social skills are +3 higher out-of-box than the average strength rogue, and his socials won't be martially worse than a bard's...a class I might observe seldom gets played.)
Now you bring the point about not being a frontline fighter. I agree. You are not.Certainly not at 4th level...although my turtle-up abilities are better than a strength build -- I frequently observed that I had the highest or near-highest low-level AC in PFS play; defensive turtle-tactics are quite effective at stymieing multiattack monsters, which you can run into as early as Tier 3-4 in PFS.
Frankly, I think TWF is a waste of time for rogues no matter where you go with it. You have no bonuses to attack from the class.I chose 4th-level for the comparison to make it as awful of a comparison as possible. At 5th, the halfling example takes his second pally dip to uber-jack his saves; and halfway through 5th or so he's PFS "fame"-eligible to pick up the Agile weapon he's been saving for (with the second one coming approx three or four scenarios later).
You rely on full attacks, which seems fine up until you realize you have poor mobility and no means to move and full attack (unless swordmaster).
Aside from characters riding pounce-kitties, almost nobody will have that ability in PFS prior to retirement. (And I'll have Longstrider running almost full-time via UMD, if not Expeditious Retreat.)
-- PFS is the low- to mid-level context I am arguing within here, as PFS was inquired of in Kyoko Hitomu's original post.
Let's consider an alternative method. One that takes accounts the weaknessses of the class and attempts to solve them without multiclassing and still doing fair damage....
I'm going to reject the notion that multiclassing is somehow non-kosher if racial and class archetypes from non-CRB sources are valid.
<snip half-orc example>Exactly. Which was the point of the "durability comparison" -- can you take it?Saves at 4th right now are F:+4 R:+7 W:+3
Halfling at F:6 R:8 W:5
Oh yeah. Crushed on the saves. And, they will get higher of course once paladin levels roll in.
But I'm going to ignore that because that's a strength of the paladin not of the rogue.Of course, because it's bad for your argument! -- Should I chide this half-orc "rogue" who stops at four levels and is then fighter and barbarian for the rest (which I can guess with high probability that he will be in the hands of most players).
...Now scork is the clear winner in damage terms.Why are you arguing this? -- It's not in dispute that a strength rogue has higher DPR (particularly at low level).
Not only is he more consistent in his ability to get sneak attacks (through charging)Last I heard, halflings could charge (and mine frequently do).
Exactly, because those are that things that mattered to me: the highest skill checks (quality over quantity, as DEX and to a lesser extend CHA skills are going to feature in combat and pre-combat).His skills don't suffer for it either. The halfling sits on a total of 30 skill points all told (we'll assume he spent his three favored class points into HP since survival is what he's aiming for). Scork however didn't multiclass to compromise his favored class or skill points so he'll be looking at 44 skill points. For those of you keeping score at home that's 11 skills out of 21 (or 15 if you just want the more or less relevant ones) that get maxed out here.
Halfling has scork beat on the things that matter to him, mainly charisma and dex based stuff chosen on dint of race and prefferred fighting style. Heck hell even crush him in stealth due to size and dex considerations. That's fine.
A boost to saves to be sure but that's all he really did.
Rewind to the "Anecdote" post near the end of the last page -- that rogue was pumped to destroy, and croaked on continually-failed saves.
I build characters to survive PFS in mixed-table environments, not win analytical DPR contests.
And to do this he opened himself up to the can of worms that are paladins and all the potential rolepalying issues associated with them.Which I am well-equipped to argue in PFS.
Now the question becomes about the scork's future. Going into later levels we'll have about three mroe feats before ninth. Two of those will be spent on surprise follow through and combat reflexes. When we get combat reflexes we'll switch out our falchion for a longspear/cestus combo effectively increasing our working range and including the threat of our reach against enemies that will attack us. surprise follow through gives us the option of sneak attacking two targets at once or at least being able to sneak attack every time we get a chance to cleave. The third feat will likely be either dark stalker or Lunge.
And honestly? If I were playing for realz I'd drop trapfinding altogether given it's all too limited use in favor of Skulking Slayer.
Of course you are -- because that character is built like a melee DPR champ who's totally going to abandon rogue after four levels, so why even bother with the rogue skills?
Might as well dump CHA to 7, be barb at 1st and take Combat Reflexes to swing a bardiche in a monster arc.