Dervish Dancer's Bardic Performance / Battle Dance

[pibby]

From what I understand from RAW, Battle Dance doesn't outright say that it replaces Bardic Performance despite being treated like it. I know I know, most people say it does replace it considering the language and intent the description uses, but I want to know why that's the case if I'm wrong.

[Kazaan]

There are performances you can still do as Bardic Performances that the archetype does not swap out; namely Countersong, Fascinate, and Distraction. Moreover, Battle Dance only states you add Inspire Courage/Greatness/Heroics as Battle Dance performances; it does not state that you lose the ability to use those performances as normal Bardic Performances. Ergo, you maintain the following as Bardic Performances:

Inspire Courage
Countersong
Fascinate
Distraction
Inspire Greatness
Inspire Heroics

You can perform the following as Battle Dances:

Inspire Courage
Inspire Greatness
Inspire Heroics
Rain of Blows
Razor's Kiss
Leaf on the Wind

If you perform Inspire Courage as a Battle Dance, it only affects you, can be started as a Move action (Swift @lvl 10), and grants access to the Fleet, Dance of Fury, and Battle Fury class abilities. If you use it as a Bardic Performance, however, it takes normal BP actions to start and you cannot use Fleet, Dance of Fury, or Battle Fury.

[pibby]

So in other words I exchange out the abilities that make bards great skill monkeys and the use of bardic performance for crowd control. In return I get to become a mobility fighter and still have the option to be the iconic buff bard that I'm expected to be. Dervish Dancers were a lot better than I thought, thanks.

[dark78660]

Also if you check out d20pfsrd on the Bard page and go to Archetypes It shows for the Dervish Dancer Bardic Performance is neither replaced, or altered.

It also states the flowing.

Battle Dance:

A dervish dancer is trained in the use of the Perform skill, especially dance, to create magical effects on himself. This works like bardic performance, except the dervish dancer only affects himself, and does not need to be able to see or hear his own performance. Battle dancing is treated as bardic performance for the purposes of feats, abilities, effects, and the like that affect bardic performance, except that battle dancing does not benefit from the Lingering Performance feat or any other ability that allows a bardic performance to grant bonuses after it has ended. Battle dancing benefits apply only when the bard is wearing light or no armor. Like bardic performance, it cannot be maintained at the same time as other performance abilities.

I bolded the last bit there, because generally unless stated otherwise all classes are self referential.

[GM:]

Also the way its worded it doesn't seem like Rain of Blows or Razor's Kiss are Battle Dances, but rather enhancments on the other battle dances

[wxcougar]

I didn't understand it that way, I read it that as Kazaan said, Rain of Blows and Razor's Kiss are all Battle Dances, just like Leaf on the Wind, and the three from Bardic Performances.

The ones that enhance battle dances are Fleet, Dance of Fury and Battle fury.

Still a very fun class to play (I had one up through 15th level before the campaign ended).

Also, there is a way to get two performances/battle dances at once using a spell called Virtuoso Performance from the Ultimate Magic. (There are likely other ways but I can't think of them off hand).

[ngc7293]

To me, Dervish Dancer is quite clear.

Quote:

Dervish dancers gain the inspire courage, inspire greatness, and inspire
heroics bardic performance types as battle dances, but these only
provide benefit to the dervish dancer himself.

And about the Battle Dances, this is an old topic. This is also quite clear.

Quote:

Rain of Blows (Su): At 6th level, a dervish dancer can use his battle dance to speed up his attacks.

Razor’s Kiss (Su): At 8th level, a dervish dancer can use his battle dance to improve his weapons’ critical range.

Fleet (Su): While performing a battle dance, a dervish dancer gains a +10 enhancement bonus to his land speed.

Rain of Blows: Battle Dance

Razor's Kiss: Battle Dance
Fleet: only performed in a battle dance.

For once Pathfinder isn't vague.

[GM:]

But the way its worded is vague, lets substitue other valid words for the sentences' structures

Origanal sentence:
Dervish dancers gain the (inspire courage, inspire greatness, and inspire
heroics){bardic performance} types as [battle dances].

Sentence structure:
Dervish dancers gain the (type of action){original category} types as [new category].

Origanal sentence:
At 6th level, a dervish dancer can use his [battle dance] to speed up his attacks.

Sentence structure:
At 6th level, a dervish dancer can use his [new category] to speed up his attacks.

Counter-example:
At 6th level, a dervish dancer can use his [bardic performance] to speed up his attacks.

[Kazaan]

Well of course if you go swapping out words for other words it doesn't make sense. You can noodle all the microwaves you want, but at the end of the palm tree, what matters is that France is bacon.

[GM:]

But the point is that that "bardic performance" and "battle dance" are equivalent replacements, in that one is literally replacing the other. Thus a reversal of that replacement would be equally valid.