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Is a Cleric/Oracle a must in a WotR party?
Background...
So a couple of local players and me are forming a party for WotR.
We have not yet started the game and are currently discussing roles and what classes we want to play. Formal character creation is next week.
Currently, the role of healer is a Paladin/1 lv Oracle of Life. He basically planning to use Life link coupled with a ultimate mercy build to keep the party going. Sort of a support paladin build, with some skill in fighting and tanking.
While he has our in combat healing covered, I realize that none of us are able to cast any restoration spells above lesser restoration, with the paladin only able to cast restoration only towards the very high levels.
Which leads me to question if we should have a second healer, for example a Cleric, in the party. Someone that can handle "party maintenance" like ability score drain/damage, poisons, curses, status effects...etc.
I'm focusing on Clerics/Oracles as they are the only class with early access to the Restoration spell. And the only one with access to greater restoration.
The Paladin will do fairly well, especially if he's got a high Charisma. What other classes do you have though? Bards can also double as healers after all, and alchemists can often handle this area as well.
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Everyone is still planing out their characters.
At the moment I going for a Zen Archer to cover damage dealing. With the Paladin player and one other player thinking of playing a ninja or rogue.
My concern is not healing of HP, which I believe our Paladin can do very well. I'm more concern of non-hp damage, like ability score damage/drain and status effects. Non-hp damage that a Cleric have a much better time dealing with.
I know that with a high Cha, a Paladin can use UMD on scrolls for spells not on his spell list or access spells like Restoration via a scroll using a CL check. But these means an extra burden on the party, as we have to redirect resources to getting these items.
Life Oracles and Healing Domain clerics, are the two viable healing builds, if you are looking for a well built healer, and even they, don't outpace enemy damage. the spell, Heal, when you get it, probably negates one enemy full attack on one ally, by wasting a standard action and a high level spell.
but to make it useful, you need lotsa constitution or else that 150 HP cap (162 w/ fey foundling) is kinda wasted, but you need lotsa constitution to survive a full attack anyway. unless you have a high chance of negating enemy attacks. such as mirror image.
Short answer is no.
Alchemists, Inquisitors, Healing patron Witches - all get Restoration (lesser and greater) on their spell list as well.
For status effects - Lay on Hands with the mercies is one of the easiest and best way of removing them.
Suggest to the Rogue / Ninja character to consider an Inquisitor build - pointing out the Bane ability and you'll get some extra coverage there.
Pretty much nothing is ever a "must" unless an adventure is reeeeeeally badly designed. Some things are very useful, certainly, and perhaps the closest thing to becoming a must is variety (a party of four people who all do roughly the same thing is going to be a lot easier to shut-down than a decently varied party), but I'm never seen an AP that outright required any class.
Wizards in Rise of the Runelords are very useful, but they are not a must. Clerics in Carrion Crown are very useful, but they are not a must, and so-on.
There's always creative ways around things. Your concern about restoration spells are valid of course, though, and if that's something you want to be able to cover with your character, then there are a decent number of options available to you.
Just have fun with it.
Yeah, well. I'm not one of those people who follows that ridiculous maxim that "combat healers are not needed". Given that I have seen high-level combat many, many times (GM'ed seven campaigns to completion by now), I know that those ideal ambush situations, where opponents getting taken down before they can act does not always happen. With the overwhelming offense high-level opponents are also capable of dishing out, player characters do get one-rounded from time to time or at least taken down to low double digits and need healing before the next turn for their opponents comes up. Or they are already down and need a Breath of Life.
So, as it is, you will need some sort of emergency healer. Or lots of money for Raise Deads/Ressurections/Restorations. Or hero points. Or lots of new character sheets.
That idea that you only need healers after combat is BS, pure and simple. And at the highest levels, it becomes even more ridiculous.
The question is do you need a cleric/oracle...which I would have to say is a no. There are lots of other classes that can heal darn near as efficiently. Either of those two classes definitely do have their place though and there are places they can make a lot easier.
Sounds like your paladin does have an oracle level meaning he can use scrolls from that list. Some redistribution of loot here and there should be an easy thing to help the party when they need (or heck, let them hear about a scroll they need but perhaps they need to quest for it or barter with so-and-so for it).
As it is WotR - there are a huge variety of uh-oh buttons that you can press in the Mythic paths. This only got bigger in the Mythic Origins splatbook too.
Breath of Life is quite limited to those two classes and I think one Alchemist archetype. Has saved the party in my just concluded JR campaign at least five Raise Dead/Ressurection situations.
Breath of Life comes in at Level 9 - by which time players in WotR will be at Mythic Tier 2.
A Heirophant or Guardian could have Relentless Healing - which is a tier 1 ability that is basically Breath of Life-ish.
So your Paladin/Oracle dip should do just fine.
you don't neccessarily require a healing domain cleric or a life mystery oracle, they merely make things a whole lot easier by providing the bandaid kit pre made.
if 3.5 material is allowed, or even DSP Psionics. a Vitalist has their own defibrillator that requires no funds, and their own raise dead and restoration with no gold cost attached. the downsides are longer cast times and stuff like being fatigued for a day.
Like most of the others are saying, it's not essential, just like in most paths. But having clerics/oracles do make healing less item dependent, and at higher levels they're far more efficient at it.
But this is only a valid argument if you're going with positive energy clerics. Evil clerics or neutral+negative energy ones don't spontaneously heal allies.
Is a Cleric/Oracle a must in a WotR party?
Background...
So a couple of local players and me are forming a party for WotR.
We have not yet started the game and are currently discussing roles and what classes we want to play. Formal character creation is next week.Currently, the role of healer is a Paladin/1 lv Oracle of Life. He basically planning to use Life link coupled with a ultimate mercy build to keep the party going. Sort of a support paladin build, with some skill in fighting and tanking.
While he has our in combat healing covered, I realize that none of us are able to cast any restoration spells above lesser restoration, with the paladin only able to cast restoration only towards the very high levels.
Which leads me to question if we should have a second healer, for example a Cleric, in the party. Someone that can handle "party maintenance" like ability score drain/damage, poisons, curses, status effects...etc.
I'm focusing on Clerics/Oracles as they are the only class with early access to the Restoration spell. And the only one with access to greater restoration.
Our party consists of:
Catfolk Rogue
Human Fighter (going shadow dancer)
Elf Wizard
Aasimir Ranger
Tiefling Paladin
We just hit level 2 as part 1 ended and were ok. We used no healing on the party. Used some potions on the NPC to get them up. Paladin lost 5 HP and the Rogue lost 4. There are plenty of potions available and we'll see how we do in part 2 but with some Lay on hands and more potions we should be ok and I think you'll be ok as well with just the paladin.
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Thanks for all the replies.
Our current party character ideals for a 5-6 players party are:
1) Healer/support-type Paladin
2) Cleric-based Summoner (me)
3) Smiting Paladin (?)
4) A Rogue/ninja type character
2 more players.
I'm really not worried about in or out of combat HP healing. We seem to have plenty to go around.
As I mentioned above, my worry is mainly on NON-HP damage to the party.
I decided to go with a Cleric based summoner to give the party versatility in dealing with situations. I can now tank via summons, heal hp, ability scores and deal damage.
While this will be a more complicated character then my original ideal of a pure Zen Archer, I believe it can help the party better in handling of different situations.
Summoning Clerics can be truly nasty, especially once you start buffing your summons with various Feats. I suspect your group might end up too powerful for the campaign just due to action economy. Hopefully your GM can keep up! ^^;;
Yeah, late-game six player groups get like hell on wheels for AP's, lots of re-writing and/or combining encounters and advancing opponents. Good luck, I am in the same boat.
Yup. A fifth player already unbalances the action economy. This counts for Cohorts as well, btw.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I still love larger groups. With Hero Labs and roll20.net I'm able to better control the battlefield and keep track of hit points and everything, so increasing the number of foes they're fighting isn't difficult.
It's just that Paizo claimed in the Player's Handbook "4-5 players is the same" when it's not. That fifth player unbalances things, as does the sixth.
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Definitely. Had another session with my four player group tonight for Jade Regent and the difference how they have to struggle in situations where the six player group just blasted through (with additional buffing of the opponents for that latter group, of course) is really educating.
Although they are aquitting themselves better these last sessions than before, I guess the high-level bonuses are beginning to kick in now that they are level eight.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I still love larger groups. With Hero Labs and roll20.net I'm able to better control the battlefield and keep track of hit points and everything, so increasing the number of foes they're fighting isn't difficult.
It's just that Paizo claimed in the Player's Handbook "4-5 players is the same" when it's not. That fifth player unbalances things, as does the sixth.
each extra player adds 1 to the APL.
the following Ally types, i wouldn't factor into Party APL for determining difficulty
* a purely defensive monk who deals little to no damage for their level but is easily ignored, i wouldn't engage them, if they wish to change to something more offense oriented, allow them too freely and change your accomodations accordingly
* a fragile noncombatant who contributes nothing to combat besides maybe the occassional buff or heal. essentially, the bard with a 5 strength and 7 constitution, a middling dex, who maxed out intelligence and charisma to be a better face, they might be able to buff in the important fights, but in most fights, they aren't a factor, consider them nonexistant
* a wizard who stays home doing nothing but crafting on the PCs behalf at a discounted price or similar NPC. doubled wealth isn't a big deal, just an Extra +1 to a handful of things
* the ally that scouts, deals with traps, and often hides during combat, this can be a witches butterfly familiar, or the druid's falcon who delivers messages
* the character that is so underpowered for their level, that they are completely irrelevant and combat doesn't hinge upon their success, typically a rogue or a monk. can also be a ninja or cavalier depending on the scenario. can also be any character built around reactive options, such as healing or attacks of opportunity in certain games. a healer may be useless in a game where damage is easy to mitigate and where everybody has a few self heals and days with fewer encounters, while a character built around attacks of opportunity is hindered with a DM who plays his monsters way too smart for their intellect.
Secane- actually your parties paladin can use restoration even at level 1. Just have the party chip in for a wand. Since its on his spell list he can activate the wand without even having UMD ;)Same goes for any of the paladins spells.
PRD:
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
Our party is made up of a Paladin, two Dervishes of Dawn and a Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple (silver), so no Cleric, Oracle or dedicated healer... then again, every one of them will eventually be capable of in-combat healing (Swift action self-heals for the Paladin via Lay on Hands, Swift+Move action Cure spells for the Dervishes and Fractions of Heal and Harm for the Diciple should he need it) so I doubt they'll really miss it.
We are just starting part 3 and the party consists of
Elf Sorcerer (celestial)
Tiefling Ranger
Human Paladin
Human Barbarian
Half-Orc inquisitor
I've found that the players (I'm DMing) are doing fine keeping eachother upright. Even half decent rolls will get the players lots of potions and the occasional LoH or CLW from the inquisitor is enough to keep everyone upright. Biggest benefit i would see to having a Cleric/Oracle over Paladin or Inquisitor is the early access to Dispel Evil.
On a side note, Even if one of your players chooses to be a Cleric or Oracle to help with healing, there is no reason that they have to play a Life oracle or Healing Domain Cleric to be effective healers.
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Thanks for the advice everyone.
After much deliberation, I decided to go with a Summoner-type Cleric.
My GM is kind enough to allow Sacred Summons to cover Celestial Animals summoned.
Our first game went very well. I'm starting to remember why I used to enjoy playing a Cleric in HB/APs. Currently playing a "Divine God-Parent" to a pair of twins PCs, a Tiefling and an Aasimar. :)
We have covered the first adventure, and attained mythic status without a cleric. We have me (Paladin) and an Inquisitor. We found quite a lot of potions en-route, and we will make a wand to keep us going.
So far, so good. A few "man-down" situations, but no deaths.
Scribe Scroll is a good thing to have with a caster, you can scribe what you need.
My group also has a Pal and Inq instaed of Cleric/oracle. Our only "man-down" situations usually involve very poor decision making by players, like running way ahead into a group of 10 bad guys waiting to kill them.
I can tell you from personal experience you don't need a healer for an AP.
We are just wrapping up a Serpents Skull campaign and we did it with a Witch, Fighter and Gunslinger. Not once has any one that could cast a healing spell done it in combat, including any NPCs we might have brought along. We are built on 20 Pts though since we have only 3 players.
Eh, I've run the first module to conclusion and without in-combat healing, three characters would be dead by now. Of course I had to beef up the written encounters substantially for my six player group, so draw your own conclusions from what I said.