What counts as a threat to break the fascinated condition?

[Mir]

More specifically if a player fascinates two guards and another player takes a sword to one will the other get a save to break the fascination?

On the other side a creature from the depths fascinates a player then attacks another player will the fascinated character get a save?

I would count these as threats but the way the rules read I'm not sure if they actually are or not as NPC or PC are not actively being attacked (yet).

[blahpers]

Quote:

A fascinated creature is entranced by a supernatural or spell effect. The creature stands or sits quietly, taking no actions other than to pay attention to the fascinating effect, for as long as the effect lasts. It takes a –4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Perception checks. Any potential threat, such as a hostile creature approaching, allows the fascinated creature a new saving throw against the fascinating effect. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the fascinated creature, automatically breaks the effect. A fascinated creature's ally may shake it free of the spell as a standard action.

I would rule that someone swording my buddy counts as an "obvious threat". The examples are just examples and are not exhaustive.

[Mir]

I would too but I thought I saw something else that would rule the other way.

Also with a monster with fascinate it seems almost better just to attack than take an action fascinate first, then give the PCs who didn't save the first time another save when it actually attacked.

[blahpers]

Perhaps, but I'd think that you could fascinate someone, then have the stealthed rogue sneak up on (or past) them--fascinate ought to keep the rogue from being observed.

If you're the initiative monkey in the party, you can buy time for the rest of your party to get the first attack off. If you're surprised but can act on the surprise round, fascinate is the difference between your party getting caught flat-footed for one or two standard actions and getting to strike first anyway.

So it's pretty useful. If you want something better, you'll need a more serious condition, such as nauseated or paralyzed.

[O11O1]

The way I see it, fascinate is not a power you use during battle, but something you use before a battle starts to prevent it from starting.

Blahpers also had some good ideas

[Claxon]

I agree with the observation that fascinate is not a combat ability.

Both examples in the OP's post would break fascinate in my opinion.