Right. But there is a difference between casualties that occur in the line of duty vs those that occur in pursuit of a personal task.
That's the thing - let's go with the assumption that SHIELD agents sometimes need to do legally and morally gray things in the pursuit of a higher cause, or have the authority to bypass normal legal procedures and requirements in order to get the job done. That the stakes are high enough that it justifies operating outside of the normal domain of the law.
It is a completely different thing to do so while on the job vs doing so for personal reasons. And, ultimately, that is what was happening here.
If a cop's wife is dying, and he breaks into a hospital to steal medicine for her, and there is a security guard who fights back against the armed intruder, and the security guard is killed in the ensuing gunfight... the cop's badge doesn't excuse his actions. Nor the fact that he asked nicely before then forcefully breaking into the hospital with weapons at the ready.
Your analogy isn't right...
I would fix it by saying a cop with a search warrant in hand attempts to enter a hospital to take the medicine for his own wife's life. The guard doesn't know the cop isn't supposed to use that medicine for personal reasons, but he fights back with lethal force anyway. The guard in this situation is clearly the bad guy and the cop wouldn't get in trouble for killing him. He might get in trouble later for unjustified use of the medicine however depending on who finds out.
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Except Coulson didn't exactly have a search warrant in hand. He had no authority to be there. He was, in fact, VIOLATING DIRECT ORDERS by taking his plane and going there in the first place, and wasn't even supposed to know of its existence.
The guards were doing their job, protecting themselves against an unknown threat (if they let in everyone who said "I'm a Shield agent" they wouldn't be very good guards. That's what the pass phrase is for).
Coulson and Co. broke into a secure facility and then killed (when they have NUMEROUS ways to non-lethally incapacitate) the guards.
Pretty firmly a dick move, yeah.
It was a good episode, but that and the "It's my fault Skye was an idiot and went into a dangerous situation with no training! No it's mine! No me! It's everyone's fault but hers!" part got under my skin a bit.
I liked the guards. The little exchange between them about taking left and right was great. The team was totally in the wrong. Oh, if only Skye were awake, she could have hacked the code phrase! (Sarcasm font.)
Except Coulson didn't exactly have a search warrant in hand.S.H.I.E.L.D. doesn't bother with trivialities such as warrants, Miranda rights, or the American Constitution.
Indeeb. Not disagreeing with that.
SHIELD is a shady organization. Trying to justify what they do is probably not a good idea.
Only if they're going to write her out of the show. Ms. Marvel is too high a power level to fit in with the cast.Part of me is thinking that body might be a Kree, maybe we are setting Skye up for Ms Marvel.
thinking about it if it is a Kree that provides a bit of a link to Guardians of the Galaxy film that's coming up. I gather the Kree are pretty big in that
I have no idea about the future of Skye as a character on the show or in the movies. But a family member of mine works as one of the editors for this show, and he said that in all the test viewings before release and the feedback from viewers, her character is the least liked character on the show by a large margin. The producers thought they hit a home run with her character but Marvel fans and testing audiences have both been brutal.
He said the same thing occurred back when he worked on the show Community. Originally Jeff Winger and Britta were supposed to be the big hook-up, but early testing audiences indicated she was the least liked character on the show. Feedback on early episodes proved this to be the case, and the writers and Dan Harmon worked furiously to revise the entire story arc, and that's why by the end of the first season you have the Allison Brie character becoming the love interest.
I just thought I'd share. Again, I have no insight as to what will happen in the future, but it's not entirely impossible to believe she could be written out of the show or her character completely revamped in an effort to mix things up.
Aside from the legal and ethical issues involved in breaking into a facility that may or may not actually have a means of curing Skye (and not even being entirely sure if the particular cure you're looking for is the solution), I will be really annoyed if there is no blowback from SHIELD against Coulson and Co. over breaking into a facility that clearly has some kind of ties to SHIELD (or at least Fury and Hill), destroying it and all the information and resources contained within, on a rogue operation for a single, low-level operative.
Not to mention Garrett and his team for assisting.
Of course, I'm still a bit shocked that the two single guards in the top-secret facility somehow didn't notice the SHIELD agents until they knocked at the door (there's no radar there, keeping an eye on the airspace? Not to mention all the noise a jet landing would have made.)
This show continues to underwhelm, and it's too bad. The actors seem to improve week after week, in spite of the terrible writing and dialogue, and just generally half-thought out storylines, and there is a kernel of something worth salvaging here, but... ugh.
I say they kill off Skye and Fitz, knock Coulson down a security level or two, and let Ward lead the team.
Why kill of Fitz and let Ward lead?
Fitz is cool and Ward is still a slightly better flavor of cardboard.
And is extremely prone to mind control apparently.
Ugh. Can't stand Fitz. He's the useless half of the "team genius" amalgam.
Brett Dalton's acting has improved considerably from the pilot (or he's just been given slightly more material to work with). With decent writing- and getting him back to the character concept they originally came up with- he seems to do well. It's when they burden him with sentimental non-professional hand-wringing ("It's my fault she was there! *sob*") and silly non-professional romantic entanglements ("Let's make this just about sex. Unless... maybe... it is more than just sex?" *puppy eyes*) that he flounders around.
Oh, and throwing in nonsensical, unprofessional agent vs agent wrasslin' matches in the vein of the juvenile hero vs. hero "misunderstanding" kind of stuff that still turns up in comic books.
"Useless half"?
How so?
He's done just as much for the group as Simmons has.
"Useless half"?
How so?
He's done just as much for the group as Simmons has.
I just think having two scientific geniuses on the team is redundant, particularly when it is a field ops team, not a bunch of analysts. And of the two, I find Elizabeth Henstridge to be a better actor, with a broader range, and generally more charisma.
Of course, I'm still a bit shocked that the two single guards in the top-secret facility somehow didn't notice the SHIELD agents until they knocked at the door (there's no radar there, keeping an eye on the airspace? Not to mention all the noise a jet landing would have made.)
I say they kill off Skye and Fitz, knock Coulson down a security level or two, and let Ward lead the team.
Um... Radar at a secret base? That is as stupid as bringing a spotlight with you while you hide in the bushes so you can see if anyone is coming. And it is highly likely the base is sound proof. Now why there weren't passive things like security cameras aimed at the landing pad I have no idea. But it is good writing that they wouldn't see a plane coming or hear it land.
If there is one person they could stand to lose it would be Ward. I understand Skye isn't popular but I like her and would be a fair bit cross if they wrote her out just because her popularity was low.
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I just think having two scientific geniuses on the team is redundant, particularly when it is a field ops team, not a bunch of analysts. And of the two, I find Elizabeth Henstridge to be a better actor, with a broader range, and generally more charisma."Useless half"?
How so?
He's done just as much for the group as Simmons has.
And considerably better looks?
I don't know. I enjoy the presence of both Fitz and Simmons in the show. They also avoid redundancy by changing enough things in the characters to make them specialists in their own fields (Simmons is better with organic things, while Fitz is actually capable of operating in the field and under duress.
Now why there weren't passive things like security cameras aimed at the landing pad I have no idea. But it is good writing that they wouldn't see a plane coming or hear it land.
With as deep underground as that bunker is, there's plenty of reason they wouldn't see or hear it land. (The front doors lead into an elevator that goes down, presumably, a long distance.) That they don't have the landing pad wired with sensors or cameras to alert them is just terrible planning.
What got me is that despite not expecting anyone for some time, those guys weren't playing cards, or checkers, or an XBox. What do they do down there all day?
I don't understand why Fitz doesn't have at least SOME rudimentary cracking skills.
He's good with machines.
Well I understand why (because if he did Skye would be useless as WELL as annoying), but not from a logical standppoint.
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For someone who has spent the last every single episode criticizing Skye's presence on the plane and appearing to loathe her, May sure seemed shook up that she was hurt.
I get that Coulson gets all googly-eyed over her, and that Simmons likes *everyone* because she's made of equal parts sweetness and light (and we love her for it), but everyone else seemed different levels of out of character this episode when it came to the subject of Skye. (With May the most obviously so.) Fitz even managed to avoid saying anything snippy and Sheldon-esque, and since that's his entire characterization, it felt like he was barely even there.
"Oh cruel world! How can this be true! Not what's-her-name! She was the best of us!" <pause> "No, really, help me out here. What was her name?"
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Fitz even managed to avoid saying anything snippy and Sheldon-esque, and since that's his entire characterization, it felt like he was barely even there.
"Oh cruel world! How can this be true! Not what's-her-name! She was the best of us!" <pause> "No, really, help me out here. What was her name?"
Really dude? Have you managed somehow to NOT notice that Fitz is full-tilt crushing on Skye?
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6, Contributor
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I don't understand why Fitz doesn't have at least SOME rudimentary cracking skills.
He's good with machines.
Well I understand why (because if he did Skye would be useless as WELL as annoying), but not from a logical standppoint.
Better writing would help. "Aren't you through yet?" I'm not Skye, give me a minute".
I still think her hacking IS her superpower.
I have no idea about the future of Skye as a character on the show or in the movies. But a family member of mine works as one of the editors for this show, and he said that in all the test viewings before release and the feedback from viewers, her character is the least liked character on the show by a large margin. The producers thought they hit a home run with her character but Marvel fans and testing audiences have both been brutal.
I did a web search for this claim and guess what I found? Nothing. The vast majority of complaints are bad acting and crappy stories. I am beginning to suspect you made this claim up. Care to post a link and prove me wrong?
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Really dude? Have you managed somehow to NOT notice that Fitz is full-tilt crushing on Skye?
Eh, Skye pays attention to Ward, Fitz gets snippy. Ward saves Simmons, Fitz gets snippy and spends 1 minute at the end of an episode talking to Simmons about it, and then an entire episode with Ward working through their issues.
It's pretty obvious which of those three people he's obsessed with and territorial about, and it ain't either of the women, since Fitz only gets that way when SquareJaw McActionMan is in the mix. :)
I seriously doubt that's what the show-writers meant to portray, but Fitz has devoted far more of his attention to what Ward thinks of him than what Skye or Simmons thinks of him... (at least, according to the writers priorities, shown on screen)
I imagine they'll course correct eventually, but for now, it's just terribly amusing.
At shows beginning, it seemed foreshadowed;
Fitz + Simmons (perhaps too predictable?)
Ward + Skye (ditto)
May + Coulson (the 'grown ups in the room')
But, the *expected* pairings rarely happen immediately, if ever, so May + Ward switches things up, leaving room for a Fitz + Skye hookup, or, eventually a Simmons + Mikelok relationship (although old time Whedon fans might think that looks like a redo of the Gunn + Fred pairing).
eventually a Simmons + Mikelok relationship
More likely a Simmons/Tripplett relationship, assuming he becomes enough of a recurring character for it to happen, since Deathlok's busy doing the Clairvoyant's bidding.
I have no idea about the future of Skye as a character on the show or in the movies. But a family member of mine works as one of the editors for this show, and he said that in all the test viewings before release and the feedback from viewers, her character is the least liked character on the show by a large margin. The producers thought they hit a home run with her character but Marvel fans and testing audiences have both been brutal.I did a web search for this claim and guess what I found? Nothing. The vast majority of complaints are bad acting and crappy stories. I am beginning to suspect you made this claim up. Care to post a link and prove me wrong?
What would he be posting a link to? He says it is a family member- I seriously doubt his cousin (or whomever) was like "Hey, I can't really talk about this and break an NDA, but if you go to www.whatthefansreallythink.com you'll see what I'm heavily alluding to. Hint, hint."
The scenario described is entirely plausible. As someone who has been a part of many pre-screenings and audience tests, I find it very, very rare to see where people post this sort of information online (including myself). ABC, Disney, and Marvel are hardly likely to make any of this information public, and test audiences don't generally sit down and share notes enough to compile any sort of insider information and post it to their blogs (they'd quickly find themselves *not* invited to participate in future screenings if so.)
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I don't understand why Fitz doesn't have at least SOME rudimentary cracking skills.
He's good with machines.
Well I understand why (because if he did Skye would be useless as WELL as annoying), but not from a logical standppoint.
Fitz is Bill Nye. He'll kill someone with a pepsi bottle using a mentos bubble reaction. He's a McGiver kind of guy... less the blonde wig.
Here's a thought to consider on the point of how much viewers hate Skye.
AoS has, since their 3rd or 4th week on air, consistently out-performed all major networks except for CBS... UNTIL this last episode where NBC got ahead of it with "The Voice" and general viewership was (unfortunately) at its lowest point to date.
If there was that much hate about Skye, or rather, if she were the problem of the show, then why the drop in ratings on an otherwise action-packed and revealing episode that she pretty-much slept through?
Were they THAT disappointed that Joss didn't just outright kill her like he has any of the previous characters they loved?
Well if they don't LOVE her, WHY WOULD HE KILL HER?! (Don't they know him by now?)
;)
Whether people hate her or not isn't going to save or break the show...
but watching The Voice instead??? I don't really get what the hell happened with that.
I'm hoping the appearance of Sif quashes that ratings aberration, even if I'm more than certain they'll get season two regardless at this point.
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Probably because it hasn't been on in a month, after there wasn't an episode for a month before the LAST episode that was on.
I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people forgot it even existed. I know I did until it popped up on my DVR.
Were they THAT disappointed that Joss didn't just outright kill her like he has any of the previous characters they loved?
Well if they don't LOVE her, WHY WOULD HE KILL HER?! (Don't they know him by now?)
;)
Aside from creative input on the series and writing the pilot, Joss isn't really involved in the show at this point. It's pretty much his brother and sister-in-law running things.
Aside from creative input on the series and writing the pilot, Joss isn't really involved in the show at this point. It's pretty much his brother and sister-in-law running things.Were they THAT disappointed that Joss didn't just outright kill her like he has any of the previous characters they loved?
Well if they don't LOVE her, WHY WOULD HE KILL HER?! (Don't they know him by now?)
;)
That was a joke... clearly my wink wasn't enough to convey that. :P
Looks like they're setting up Skye as a new Super-powered Operative unique to the show or they're going Captain Marvel with it....
It burns, it burns... please stop saying this, please. Please? :)
I like Captain Marvel, but Chloe Bennet doesn't have the acting chops to pull it off, the show's writers don't have the writing chops to pull it off, and Carol Danvers is too superpowered for this low-powers show. It's far better for Danvers to be in a big screen adaptation with someone like Katee Sackhoff, who has already been approached by Marvel, in the lead role. (Plus, it let's Marvel laugh at DC's pathetic excuses for the lack of Wonder Woman movie.)
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Really dude? Have you managed somehow to NOT notice that Fitz is full-tilt crushing on Skye?Eh, Skye pays attention to Ward, Fitz gets snippy. Ward saves Simmons, Fitz gets snippy and spends 1 minute at the end of an episode talking to Simmons about it, and then an entire episode with Ward working through their issues.
It's pretty obvious which of those three people he's obsessed with and territorial about, and it ain't either of the women, since Fitz only gets that way when SquareJaw McActionMan is in the mix. :)
I seriously doubt that's what the show-writers meant to portray, but Fitz has devoted far more of his attention to what Ward thinks of him than what Skye or Simmons thinks of him... (at least, according to the writers priorities, shown on screen)
I imagine they'll course correct eventually, but for now, it's just terribly amusing.
At shows beginning, it seemed foreshadowed;
Fitz + Simmons (perhaps too predictable?)
Ward + Skye (ditto)
May + Coulson (the 'grown ups in the room')But, the *expected* pairings rarely happen immediately, if ever, so May + Ward switches things up, leaving room for a Fitz + Skye hookup, or, eventually a Simmons + Mikelok relationship (although old time Whedon fans might think that looks like a redo of the Gunn + Fred pairing).
All you have to do is look at Fitz's face when Skye macks him on the cheek.
Have to admit I missed last week's episode when it aired on TV and had to catch up with the stream off the network site.
I simply forgot the show was on because they seem to have slipped into a habit of 1 new episode a month.
That's not good for a show
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Really dude? Have you managed somehow to NOT notice that Fitz is full-tilt crushing on Skye?Eh, Skye pays attention to Ward, Fitz gets snippy. Ward saves Simmons, Fitz gets snippy and spends 1 minute at the end of an episode talking to Simmons about it, and then an entire episode with Ward working through their issues.
It's pretty obvious which of those three people he's obsessed with and territorial about, and it ain't either of the women, since Fitz only gets that way when SquareJaw McActionMan is in the mix. :)
I seriously doubt that's what the show-writers meant to portray, but Fitz has devoted far more of his attention to what Ward thinks of him than what Skye or Simmons thinks of him... (at least, according to the writers priorities, shown on screen)
I imagine they'll course correct eventually, but for now, it's just terribly amusing.
At shows beginning, it seemed foreshadowed;
Fitz + Simmons (perhaps too predictable?)
Ward + Skye (ditto)
May + Coulson (the 'grown ups in the room')But, the *expected* pairings rarely happen immediately, if ever, so May + Ward switches things up, leaving room for a Fitz + Skye hookup, or, eventually a Simmons + Mikelok relationship (although old time Whedon fans might think that looks like a redo of the Gunn + Fred pairing).
I'm not sure where you are coming from on the fitz+simmons thing. Just about from the first 60 seconds of screen time they had together it was OBVIOUS that Fitz had the hots for skye, and that the FitzSimmons relationship had nothing to do with romantic or sexual interest.
What does amuse me is noticing that whenever there's a black, musclebound man on the plane, Simmons takes notice (happened with Deathlock and now with that mook with the beard). I guess she has her type :)
I don't know about evil. The security guards did open fire first. And were not interested in any sort of dialogue. One could argue that breaking in was questionable, but after that, it was pretty much self defense. It didn't even seem like the guards would've allowed a surrender (although that's debatable).
Totally agree. The guards ignored dialogue and opened fire first. That's the bottom line, AFAIC.
If you break into a locked facility - while visibly armed, hacking through security devices and shooting out cameras on the way in - I don't think you get to claim self-defense. Those deaths are on them.
Meh. They identified themselves, wanted dialogue, and even asked nicely. That's that.
Have to admit I missed last week's episode when it aired on TV and had to catch up with the stream off the network site.
I simply forgot the show was on because they seem to have slipped into a habit of 1 new episode a month.
That's not good for a show
Yeah, that sucks. Too bad nobody could have seen that happening.
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@Arnwyn,
It could be that the guards have no choice but to defend the place with their lives. They might be under strict orders not to engage in dialog with anyone. Or, worse yet, there might be a serious reason that they need the place guarded. Some magic/technology in the facility that must never, ever be exposed for any reason. This is the Marvel universe and such things exist.
Killing the guards is a very questionable move.
It could be that the guards have no choice but to defend the place with their lives. They might be under strict orders not to engage in dialog with anyone. Or, worse yet, there might be a serious reason that they need the place guarded. Some magic/technology in the facility that must never, ever be exposed for any reason. This is the Marvel universe and such things exist.
I'm totally with you there.
Killing the guards is a very questionable move.
"Questionable"? Definitely not with you there.
The guards opened fire first - after diplomacy was attempted. Whoops on their part! Now they're fair game.
Opened fire first, on a group who identified themselves...but not with the appropriate callsign, and then proceeded to destroy property and break into the facility.
That's a VERY important detail.
It's like when somebody you don't know walks up to your place of work. You work in a restricted area. You need a passcode/keycard or something to get in.
He has neither the passcode nor the keycard, but INSISTS that he's totally authorized to be there, man.
And THEN, when you refuse to give him access, he reveals that he's armed, and then attempts to dismantle the door so he can get in there.
Then once through the door, he sees you aiming directly at it with your gun, because some crazy person has busted into your secure place of work where you keep nuclear smallpox or whatever, has a gun, and has just combat rolled into cover.
And then he's like "Dude but I'm totally not a bad guy i just need to take some shit from your secure vault to help a buddy of mine okay".
And you, as the guard, are saying you'd immediately buy that? Instead of doing your job and trying to blow the armed and dangerous trespasser's head off before he gets you instead?
The guards opened fire first - after diplomacy was attempted. Whoops on their part! Now they're fair game.
The guards didn't fire the first shot- Coulson's group did. They shot out the security cameras. Hostile intent.
Then they broke into a secured facility. Breaking and entering with hostile intent.
Crying out "Really- we just want to talk!" after the fact seems somehow not quite so sincere.
Not to mention, they didn't flash any kind of credentials. "We're with SHIELD!" without any backing is just as useful as "We're with AMWAY!"
("Uh, gee, Bob. Even though they've stormed the place, shot out our security, and are still armed to the teeth, maybe we should just talk it out. Could work out really well for us, durdurdurrrr.")
EDIT: So, pretty much like Rynjin said a few minutes before me. :)
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Given the vibe of the trailers for Captain America: Winter Soldier, I wouldn't be surprised if there is an effort on Marvel's part to paint SHIELD as an organization that is being subverted from inside by some internal faction.
Right now, I could see Marvel setting AoS up to be a mirror of the next Cap movie with the "good guy" faction battling the internal "bad guy" faction within SHIELD to determine the overall trajectory of the organization.
Heroes losing heart seems to be a common theme in the Phase 2 Marvel movies. I assume they plan to have them all regain their mojo and come together to battle Ultron in Avengers 2.
-Skeld
Given the vibe of the trailers for Captain America: Winter Soldier, I wouldn't be surprised if there is an effort on Marvel's part to paint SHIELD as an organization that is being subverted from inside by some internal faction.
That is a possibility, and it's something that SHIELD has a history of in the comics with, too.
The guards didn't fire the first shot- Coulson's group did. They shot out the security cameras. Hostile intent.
*shrug* Not enough to be labeled "evil". The first shots fired at people, after attempts at diplomacy first, were made by the guards. Fair game. Shoot back and pop 'em, please.
Crying out "Really- we just want to talk!" after the fact seems somehow not quite so sincere.
False. Not after the fact. They even talked outside the doors, without brandishing any weapons.
We won't be agreeing on this.
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Given the vibe of the trailers for Captain America: Winter Soldier, I wouldn't be surprised if there is an effort on Marvel's part to paint SHIELD as an organization that is being subverted from inside by some internal faction.That is a possibility, and it's something that SHIELD has a history of in the comics with, too.
Especially if they are going to introduce H.A.M.M.E.R. and/or S.W.O.R.D.
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Especially if they are going to introduce H.A.M.M.E.R. and/or S.W.O.R.D.Given the vibe of the trailers for Captain America: Winter Soldier, I wouldn't be surprised if there is an effort on Marvel's part to paint SHIELD as an organization that is being subverted from inside by some internal faction.That is a possibility, and it's something that SHIELD has a history of in the comics with, too.
I just had a conversation about that with one of my nerdy coworkers.
-Skeld
The guards didn't fire the first shot- Coulson's group did. They shot out the security cameras. Hostile intent.*shrug* Not enough to be labeled "evil". The first shots fired at people, after attempts at diplomacy first, were made by the guards. Fair game. Shoot back and pop 'em, please.
Crying out "Really- we just want to talk!" after the fact seems somehow not quite so sincere.False. Not after the fact. They even talked outside the doors, without brandishing any weapons.
We won't be agreeing on this.
Yes. By the guards. Doing their jobs to protect a top secret base full of biohazards, experimental medical equipment, and an alien on ice.
From people who were not authorized to be there, were armed, and who had broken into said secure facility.
If you break into a military base IRL THEY WILL SHOOT YOU, especially if you're armed.
They're not bad people for doing so, even if you say "Yeah but I just want to talk bro". That's how people get themselves killed.
"Yeah but maybe we should give him a shot. Okay we'll talk."
"Yeah thanks buddy I'ma shoot you now while your guard is down no hard feelings."
This is a thing that happens.
I don't see HOW you can disagree on this. The only intelligent course of action, from a realistic standpoint, was for these guys to open fire on a potential threat they have no way of verifying is not a threat.