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If you break into a military base IRL THEY WILL SHOOT YOU, especially if you're armed.
Yep. They sure will.
In any event, my big issue with all of this- aside from there being now this very vague sense of exactly who and what our erstwhile tv protagonists are supposed to represent, morally- is that there may not be any repercussions against them by their own organization. I'm pretty much expecting that to be the case, sadly.
After all, this is a team that has members who assaulted a senior officer *in SHIELD headquarters* no less, and didn't receive so much as a slap on the wrist. And who has an agent of some indeterminate status (in training, I guess) who has repeatedly hacked her way into secure systems and got off pretty lightly (just being allowed to remain on the team was a bit much in and of itself).
Which is my problem with the series so far as a whole. There are no stakes for these characters, because there are no consequences either for their actions or for their inactions. It's written in a pretty cursory manner, without any real attempt to explore what the writers are putting on screen. They want to make it as "realist" as possible, so that we can better buy into the world they're building before they start throwing too much of the fantastic into it, yet they don't paint their characters or the organization with a realistic touch. It's tv pointilism- looks okay from a distance, but is just a mess when you get too close.
I want to like this show better (a lot better, frankly). I want to support this show. I have a lot of sentiment towards Marvel and the MCU (even though I dn't feel any connection to the current state of Marvel comics).
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Given the vibe of the trailers for Captain America: Winter Soldier, I wouldn't be surprised if there is an effort on Marvel's part to paint SHIELD as an organization that is being subverted from inside by some internal faction.
I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the Clairvoyant is a high-ranking SHIELD agent.
Looks like they're setting up Skye as a new Super-powered Operative unique to the show or they're going Captain Marvel with it....It burns, it burns... please stop saying this, please. Please? :)
I like Captain Marvel, but Chloe Bennet doesn't have the acting chops to pull it off, the show's writers don't have the writing chops to pull it off, and Carol Danvers is too superpowered for this low-powers show. It's far better for Danvers to be in a big screen adaptation with someone like Katee Sackhoff, who has already been approached by Marvel, in the lead role. (Plus, it let's Marvel laugh at DC's pathetic excuses for the lack of Wonder Woman movie.)
Ambrosia, I wholeheartedly agree. Carol Danvers should be on a major motion picture-type horizon - I'm hoping instead Skye is used to take us on an origin of the Ch'Tauri. It would be a good move if they intend to use this alien race more.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a move like that, but there's alot of different ways they could go with it. I'm liking the amount of forward-thinking they seem to be putting into the story. I'm interested enough to keep watching, especially this whole upcoming "Uprising" thing that you know is going to coincide w/ the Captain America movie.
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Evil or no, if my friend was dying, and the only thing that could save him was in a guarded base and they refused me entry, I wouldn't bother with diplomacy. I would slaughter everyone who got in my way to get to what I need. I value the lives of my friends far higher than I value the lives of complete strangers.
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I don't think anybody who writes Agents of SHIELD is going for any kind of realism. It's going for action, sci-fi, popcorn mystery of the week.
This is a covert agency with their symbol branded on literally everything they use.
The stakes in Agents of SHIELD are about as high as that in Hercules: The Legendary Journeys and Xena: Warrior Princess.
I just like the popcorn entertainment of the show.
Just because the guards followed orders doesn't make them right.
If SHIELD had the authority to enter then the guards had the duty to stand down after verifying those credentials. If their orders were otherwise then following those orders turned them into the bad guys.
If you break into a military base IRL THEY WILL SHOOT YOU, especially if you're armed.
They're not bad people for doing so, even if you say "Yeah but I just want to talk bro". That's how people get themselves killed.
I totally agree with you. Thankfully, that's not what I'm arguing.
I don't see HOW you can disagree on this.
Then try harder. Because you're not right now.
The only intelligent course of action, from a realistic standpoint, was for these guys to open fire on a potential threat they have no way of verifying is not a threat.
I agree. I have no qualms with mook guard #1 and mook guard #2 shooting at these unknown dudes, if that's how they felt they should best handle the situation they're in. Obviously, of course, they should expect to be popped back.
Evil or no, if my friend was dying, and the only thing that could save him was in a guarded base and they refused me entry, I wouldn't bother with diplomacy. I would slaughter everyone who got in my way to get to what I need. I value the lives of my friends far higher than I value the lives of complete strangers.
O.o
What if you didn't know exactly what it was you were looking for, or how to use it, or even if it would do what you hoped for? Same story?
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And what if that friend was as obnoxious as Skye?
That's some serious messed up shiz there.
Just because the guards followed orders doesn't make them right.
If SHIELD had the authority to enter then the guards had the duty to stand down after verifying those credentials. If their orders were otherwise then following those orders turned them into the bad guys.
But all we have to go on is the information the show gives us. In the show, the guards clearly followed the protocals they had to determine who was authorized to enter - Coulson's team showed up unscheduled, claimed to be SHIELD, offered no credentials or authorization, and didn't have the appropriate passcodes to enter. After being refused entry to the secure facility, they broke in.
Even if SHIELD as an agency has the authority to demand entrance to any facility in the world, Coulson and his team weren't operating in support of a mission. So even any claims that they should be given authority, as agents of SHIELD, would have been in the wrong.
What happened is this: In a matter of personal interest, a team of agents attempted to abuse their position and gain access to a facility they weren't authorized to access. When they were still denied entrance, they broke in with force and killed the guards defending the facility, and their carelessness caused the destruction of the facility along with its research and any inhabitants who might be within it.
I can understand the logic in being willing to sacrifice the innocent to save someone you love. It is the sort of reasoning that can lead to some of the most interesting stories about villains. And if they decide to have the team continue down this road, and acknowledge that it is villanous behavior, that could lead to an interesting story. But the show seems to be acting as though their behavior was heroic, when it was anything but. And that is what I really find concerning.
First, I am sure SHIELD agents do carry credentials and if given the chance it is clear Coulson would have presented them. But the guards refused to consider anything other than their pass code. Second as agents in the field the are acting as representatives of SHIELD itself. I could understand if the guards used a secure line to call up the chain of command and maybe get further orders, but they simply locked and loaded. Which is bad for two reasons 1: They have NO idea if these agents have been sent here on an approved mission or not. 2: If they fail then their superiors have far less intelligence as to what happened at the destroyed facility.
I bolded the false part of your statement. From what we have seen so far SHIELD seems to have no limits to it's authority over local or national concerns. So you are false in assuming they had no authority to enter. I could be wrong but so far I have seen no evidence to the contrary.
First, I am sure SHIELD agents do carry credentials and if given the chance it is clear Coulson would have presented them.
Yeah man it's not like he ever had a chance to present his credentials before they destroyed the security camera the guards were watching them through.
Wait
But the guards refused to consider anything other than their pass code.
They were never GIVEN anything other than "We dunno the counter-sign". No reason not to assume "These are people trying to access our base unauthorized".
Second as agents in the field the are acting as representatives of SHIELD itself.
Which would be true...if they were on a sanctioned mission. They were not. They had essentially gone rogue at this point.
I could understand if the guards used a secure line to call up the chain of command and maybe get further orders, but they simply locked and loaded. Which is bad for two reasons 1: They have NO idea if these agents have been sent here on an approved mission or not. 2: If they fail then their superiors have far less intelligence as to what happened at the destroyed facility.
Near as I can tell there was no way to contact the outside, so people couldn't track them by their satellite uplink or some such.
I bolded the false part of your statement. From what we have seen so far SHIELD seems to have no limits to it's authority over local or national concerns. So you are false in assuming they had no authority to enter. I could be wrong but so far I have seen no evidence to the contrary.
SHIELD has no limits on authority.
Coulson and Co are not "SHIELD" they are agents of SHIELD (hence the title of the show). They are not in a command position and thus rely on approval from on high to gain those privileges they routinely use.
Approval they did not have, in this case.
Much like having a license to kill doesn't mean you can go off and murder someone for no reason, being an agent of SHIELD does not give you a blanket immunity from other forms of authority...you need authorization.
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Evil or no, if my friend was dying, and the only thing that could save him was in a guarded base and they refused me entry, I wouldn't bother with diplomacy. I would slaughter everyone who got in my way to get to what I need. I value the lives of my friends far higher than I value the lives of complete strangers.O.o
What if you didn't know exactly what it was you were looking for, or how to use it, or even if it would do what you hoped for? Same story?
If there was a chance? Heck yeah.
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Just because the guards followed orders doesn't make them right.
If SHIELD had the authority to enter then the guards had the duty to stand down after verifying those credentials. If their orders were otherwise then following those orders turned them into the bad guys.
If Coulson had authority, then he would have known the code phrase. The guards were well within their rights to use lethal force.
First, I am sure SHIELD agents do carry credentials and if given the chance it is clear Coulson would have presented them.
As noted, they did have a chance. They didn't whip out a badge, rattle off a security clearance code, offer to call up their old buddy Nick. Just- "Hey guys, we don't know the code, but we really need to get in. We're SHIELD, so it's cool, dig?"
But the guards refused to consider anything other than their pass code.
Doubtless as ordered.
Second as agents in the field the are acting as representatives of SHIELD itself. I could understand if the guards used a secure line to call up the chain of command and maybe get further orders, but they simply locked and loaded.
Not correct. They remained locked. Team Coulson unloaded their weapons on the cameras. It being clear that they were being invaded with hostile intent, then the guards loaded up.
Which is bad for two reasons 1: They have NO idea if these agents have been sent here on an approved mission or not.
They were pretty surprised to see anyone there, which tends to lend credence to the idea that no one was expected. Agents on an authorized mission would probably have been cleared ahead of time- even if only minutes or seconds before their arrival, no?
2: If they fail then their superiors have far less intelligence as to what happened at the destroyed facility.
This is true, although given that their orders were to "set the self-destruct sequence first off" makes it seem as if intel on whom the invaders were is of secondary priority to making sure no one loots the place before relaying any intel.
I bolded the false part of your statement. From what we have seen so far SHIELD seems to have no limits to it's authority over local or national concerns. So you are false in assuming they had no authority to enter. I could be wrong but so far I have seen no evidence to the contrary.
The guards at the base, at least, had orders/instructions that there were limits as to the authority needed to enter the base. Which is all that is really relevant. SHIELD can shout about jurisdiction all they want until their lungs turn greener than the Hulk, but if someone else is told that they don't have jurisdiction, then it's kind of moot.
If Coulson had authority, then he would have known the code phrase. The guards were well within their rights to use lethal force.Just because the guards followed orders doesn't make them right.
If SHIELD had the authority to enter then the guards had the duty to stand down after verifying those credentials. If their orders were otherwise then following those orders turned them into the bad guys.
Agreed, Kthulhu. If you're going to create a scenario where there is going to be violence then don't half-ass it. It would've been a great opportunity to reveal both guards as LMDs. It remains to be seen as to whether or not there will be consequences for what they did, but seeing as how high up in the command structure both Coulson and Garrett are, I sincerely doubt it.
BTW, that place HAD to be valuable to SHIELD. It didn't make sense having 2 greenhorns guarding it. It should've been either an automated defense network or some kind of Reagan or Clinton-era Stark weapon system.
I find the sentiment of "they're my friends, so screw these random strangers" to be pretty close to the essence of evil. Your friend can live. All you have to do is kill someone you don't know...
Agreed. You can value one person's life more than another one's without it meaning that you are willing to take that other person's life. The line isn't nearly that fine.
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I find the sentiment of "they're my friends, so screw these random strangers" to be pretty close to the essence of evil. Your friend can live. All you have to do is kill someone you don't know...Agreed. You can value one person's life more than another one's without it meaning that you are willing to take that other person's life. The line isn't nearly that fine.
Ok, I can live with a single evil act if it will ensure the life of my friend. A true friend, mind. Someone I would gladly give my life for.
Now that was a fun and interesting episode.
Kree get a mention if only as one name amongst a dozen other blue skinned alien races.
Sif's orders carry a very different weight for those who saw Thor 2.
and the end scene offers two possibilities regarding May.
Question for a lot of folks is if this near death will take some of the abrasive edges off of Skye. She's already made note that she was serious hardcore training once she is up and about and I have to wonder how much of her ego has been deflated.
Is Lorelei supposed to be the Enchantress or was that somebody else?
Is Lorelei supposed to be the Enchantress or was that somebody else?
Loreli is actually her little sister. Not as much magical power but much better at mind controlling men
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Fury got angry at Coulsson for punching a hole in the plane while performing the duties of his command. I can't imagine that Coulsson and his team will have any welcome back into S.H.I.E.L.D.'s good graces after this.
Incidentally, I'm pretty sure that Garret's willingness to go along with the assault is an indication that he is indeed working with the Clairvoyant.
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Coulson genuinely regrets having to kill those two guards. I call the subject closed.Are you suggesting that because he regrets it, that makes it ok?
Yeah. I don't really care about those guards. Much less then I care about Skye anyway. Plus it's Coulson we're talking about here. If he could have found a peaceful solution, he would have.
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They were never supposed to be your run off the mill heroes. Shield is not a heroic organization. It never was, and never will. The only likable Nick Fury thus far has been Sam Jackson's. I always saw fury as an arrogant asshat too big for his britches who existed only to bother the protagonists of other comics.
They were never supposed to be your run off the mill heroes. Shield is not a heroic organization. It never was, and never will.
It's gotten a lot darker over the years- and perhaps in some ways, more realistic- but SHIELD was originally a pretty heroic organization. They were the Cold War Heroes fighting the good fight against all those evil organizations like AIM and HYDRA who were intent on working their nefarious deeds against the good ol' US of A.
The only likable Nick Fury thus far has been Sam Jackson's. I always saw fury as an arrogant asshat too big for his britches who existed only to bother the protagonists of other comics.
Again, something that's really been a gradual change to the character (and much for the worse, I fear). Nick Fury was, even before SHIELD, the grizzled war hero leader of an elite WWII unit. Even when he went to work for SHIELD not long after (bringing him into the MU's present day, while his other series remained as depictions of his past adventures).
Much like SHIELD, he's become somewhat shadier over the years, perhaps in parallel with a more mature outlook on the realities of politics and life that has settled over this country since the pre-Cold War era.
In any event, it's not quite clear what the tv show's take on things is supposed to be. Ostensibly, Team Coulson are supposed to be heroes. A lot of what we've been shown has supported this view. They're the protagonists, and the show hasn't really been presented or marketed in a way that would lead one thus far to think it is supposed to be a sort of anti-heroic type of show.
On the other hand, some of the writing, particularly lately, brings that into question, and leads to some of us viewers questioning things. I think that the writers haven't clearly established their world as much as they have said they wanted to do in interviews (before bringing the MCU into the picture more fully).
Coulson genuinely regrets having to kill those two guards. I call the subject closed.Are you suggesting that because he regrets it, that makes it ok?
No, but it means they're not treating it as something he SHOULD be okay with, which is a good start.
The only thing that really bugged me was how Lorelei's power was treated.
** spoiler omitted **
So... the show definitely still seems to have a really weird moral code - or lack of it.
Not weird. Or, not unusual, I mean.
Likely the thought that it was rape never even crossed the writer's minds.
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This week's episode was awesome for it's plot development and character development, but it did make me realize I hate those Asgardains. They are just ridiculous, really. Can't take any scene with them seriously.
Interesting points:
THE GOOD:
1) I liked how this episode was sort of a (very) small scale rehash of the plot of the AVENGERS movie - a rouge Asgardian comes to Earth to wreck havoc, another Asgardian is sent to put a collar on the first one's dangerous mouth.
2) The mind control, as others mentioned, was awesome. The fact that only one thing changed in the controlled person - that his top priority changed - made it much better than mindless zombies.
3)Some cool action scenes, very good acting from most of the crew, and interesting character development.
4) There was actual acknowledgment in the episode of the fact that what the team did in the previous one was immoral and broke protocol - with Coulson having to pull favors with Fury himself to get his team out of this one, and the death of the guards mentioned in regretful tones several times.
THE BAD:
1) "Men all share a weakness that women don't" is a very sexist notion, and is not at all derivable from the fact that one Asgardian wizard is only capable of enchanting them.
2) Further along this line of thought, Agent Word is the one who got screwed big time by getting enslaved, yet May is the one presented as the victim. I mean, come on. Word was no more able to shake off the enchantment than May was of withstanding a fist from that Asgardian. May really has no grounds to be upset with him at all. And of the two of them, Word is the one who should be really shook up - he was enslaved, raped, and almost guilty of murdering his lover - he has to live with that later.
THE UGLY:
1) Word: "I figure, you get to punch me again. Repeatedly". My theory about his sexual relationship with May seems to accumulate more and more evidence...
I actually liked Skye in this episode. She was where she should be, for one thing. As a side character, not the main focus of everything.
Fr another, though this may be because of her limited screentime, getting shot appears to have at least partially extricated her head from her ass.
2) Further along this line of thought, Agent Word is the one who got screwed big time by getting enslaved, yet May is the one presented as the victim. I mean, come on. Word was no more able to shake off the enchantment than May was of withstanding a fist from that Asgardian. May really has no grounds to be upset with him at all. And of the two of them, Word is the one who should be really shook up - he was enslaved, raped, and almost guilty of murdering his lover - he has to live with that later.
My impression was that she was mad over the whole "He revealed his love...it wasn't you" bit rather than the mind control in general.
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I actually liked Skye in this episode. She was where she should be, for one thing. As a side character, not the main focus of everything.
If ever they had a moment to rework Skye's personality a bit this is it. The girl just got a really big dose of mortality and the importance of not going lone wolf on things. She has been hit very VERY hard with the consequences of her actions, nearly died because of it and pushed her friends into some very dark territory all for the sake of saving her life.
Realistically that should give her a lot of reasons to rethink how she does things in her life and she could come out of this a much better and more likeable character
Ward. His name is Ward.
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Ward. His name is Ward.
Word.
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Ward. His name is Ward.
Yeah, I was never sure about that. Thanks for clearing that up.
@Rynjin.
Ha, I took that line to mean that the Asgardian thought Ward loves HER (she seems the kind of brat who'd reach that conclusion from a controlled mine slave), but now that you mention it, they did leave the identity of the woman he loves vague, and seeing as how he is only capable of smiling when Skye is in the room, it's probably her. Good call.
@Lord Snow:
Well if you'll recall she said specifically the person he USED to love or some such, making it very clear that it was the person he loved before she took over his mind, which is why I reached that conclusion. Mae may be emotionally stunted, but she's observant and she's certainly not an idiot, so I figured she'd been noticing the same things we have been, and Lorelei just confirmed her suspicions.
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Maj. Glenn Talbot to appear in Agents of Shield: (from io9.com)
Adrian Pasdar will be guest-starring in an upcoming April episode as Glenn Talbot, who is a major supporting character from the the Hulk comics. No news yet about how Coulson and his team will encounter Talbot, but Pasdar did seem to hint that he'd be more than bit part in a single episode, answering a question about whether he'd come back by saying:
"Oh yeah. I would imagine. As willing as I am to jump when Jeph [Loeb] calls, there had to be a little bit more in it than just an episode for me. So I can't say much more but the mustache is in a locker and it's being taken out and prepped as we speak for next week. Every show needs a jerk, [and] I guess I'm that guy. I make everybody else look so nice. I think it was Walt Disney who said it, "The show's only as good as the bad guy is bad.'"
I remember this character best from the 1980's Hulk cartoon, but he has a long history in the Hulk comics. He was a great jerk character as part of the Banner/Betty Ross/Talbot love triangle so I wonder if he'll be involved in a gamma-related plot.
I'm glad to see more recognizable characters slowly appearing in the show.
Maj. Glenn Talbot to appear in Agents of Shield: (from io9.com)
Adrian Pasdar will be guest-starring in an upcoming April episode as Glenn Talbot, who is a major supporting character from the the Hulk comics. No news yet about how Coulson and his team will encounter Talbot, but Pasdar did seem to hint that he'd be more than bit part in a single episode, answering a question about whether he'd come back by saying:
"Oh yeah. I would imagine. As willing as I am to jump when Jeph [Loeb] calls, there had to be a little bit more in it than just an episode for me. So I can't say much more but the mustache is in a locker and it's being taken out and prepped as we speak for next week. Every show needs a jerk, [and] I guess I'm that guy. I make everybody else look so nice. I think it was Walt Disney who said it, "The show's only as good as the bad guy is bad.'"
I remember this character best from the 1980's Hulk cartoon, but he has a long history in the Hulk comics. He was a great jerk character as part of the Banner/Betty Ross/Talbot love triangle so I wonder if he'll be involved in a gamma-related plot.
I'm glad to see more recognizable characters slowly appearing in the show.
Y'know along that line of thought, it would also be nice to see Betty Ross in some upcoming episodes. Could be she's part of the team that's working to "keep interested parties off Bruce's scent" as Black Widow alluded to in Avengers, but if you're keeping the power levels low, she'd be an excellent guest star, even as part of a recurring role or even a regular cast member in the future. It would make alot of sense and give the show even more "connective tissue" to the Marvel Universe.
Conventional wisdom would suggest they bring her character in to the Avengers franchise since she still presumably has a relationship w/ Bruce. I don't see that character in the game-plan.
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Get Liv Tyler as a recurring character? They don't have the budget. A one-off sure, I'd love that.
Eh, Bruce isn't Ed Norton anymore, so Betty doesn't have to be Liv Tyler.
Although, they could totally mess with people, and have Jennifer Connolly return as Betty...