It's a good question, but I'd guess that since Breath of life targets 'creature touched', and Disintegrate made you a pile of dust, it wouldn't work.
On the other hand, dead creatures are typically considered objects ...
Without a body, there would be no corpse for breath of life to work on.
I believe you'd need Resurrection, which also specifically calls out disintegration.
"The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature's body still exists, it can be resurrected, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature's body at the time of death. (The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.)"
I'd have to say BoL would work here.
Nothing in the wording for Disintegrate says you can't be brought back from death with magical aid, so no special rules to consider there. There's no condition called 'disintegrated' either. (Even if other spells call out 'this works on disintegrated targets.)
So if BOL meets it's own criteria to bring you back, you come back.
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Disintegrate does not kill by reducing an opponent to negative CON.
Disintegrate kills through a secondary effect that destroys the body. This can occur at 0 hit points, a point that normally would only impose the staggered condition.
Breath of Life restores hit points, but does not recreate a persons body.
I'd have to say BoL would work here. Nothing in the wording for Desintegrate says you can't be brought back from death with magic, so no special rules to consider there.
So if BOL meets it's own criteria to bring you back, you come back.
It's not Disintegrate you have to worry about, it's BoL. BoL has a required target of "creature touched". A pile of dust isn't a creature.
If you have a DM that will stretch the text in parenthesis of the Resurrection spell, where the dusty remains count as a part of the person, then I can see a case for allowing BoL to work.
But, as printed, it doesn't.
A pile of dust isn't a creature.
Says who?
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Breath of Life operates like an interrupt to fatal damage, curing hit points in a "window" where it is presumed the soul has not fled the body. As such, it targets creatures only.
Disintegrate transmutes the target to dust, whereby it ceases to be a creature and becomes an object...dust. There is no body nor wounds to be healed.
Sounds like the GM was being generous to the party on a nasty botched save.
So an Earth Elemental that's reduced to dust is still viable? It's just smaller, and still just rock/dust in the end right?
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I think by RAW, a disintegrated creature is no longer a creature (despite our linguistic reference to it as such) and therefore ineligible as a target of Breath of Life.
However, the intent of Breath of Life is to keep PCs from dying too easily, so a GM could rule, if he were so generously inclined, that the damage from Disintegrate is instantaneous but the actual disintegration process is not instant but rather takes a few seconds to begin converting the corpse to dust after the damage is done; this generous ruling would allow a Breath of Life to be applied to the corpse before it is turned into dust.
It boils down to what kind of game you're playing. A gritty life-and-death struggle between PCs and GM will surely stick to the RAW, but a more friendly (or less punishing) game might allow some wiggle room for the more generous ruling.
I'd have to say BoL would work here. Nothing in the wording for Desintegrate says you can't be brought back from death with magical aid, so no special rules to consider there. There's no condition called 'disintegrated' either. (Even if other spells call out 'this works on disintegrated targets.)
"Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust. A disintegrated creature's equipment is unaffected."
Given that there isn't a defined condition for "disintegrated", we default to the endoxa, or at least a good dictionary definition. The word means "broken into tiny parts" The spell says those parts are fine dust. I don't think it could be clearer that the body is destroyed.
And you're right; Disintegrate doesn't say you can't be brought back from the dead, but according to CRB 208 under "Bringing Back the Dead", it reads that spells that have this power "involves magically retrieving his soul and returning it to his body." There isn't a body to return this person to; it's dust.
Unless you have something more specific than the dictionary, I'm afraid I disagree with your reasoning. This is magical after all.
But hey, It's just my opinion.
Says the rule that things that were once alive, and are now dead, are objects. Objects are not creatures.A pile of dust isn't a creature.Says who?
Citation requested here on this quote.
While this definitely isn't explicitly stated anywhere -
Disintegrate reduces you to a pile of dust and equipment.
Breath of Life requires a creature to target, and can target creatures who died the round before.
The pile of dust left behind by disintegrate isn't a creature anymore, so there's nothing for breath of life to target, and it would therefore fail.
That's my take, anyways.
While this definitely isn't explicitly stated anywhere -
Disintegrate reduces you to a pile of dust and equipment.
Breath of Life requires a creature to target, and can target creatures who died the round before.
The pile of dust left behind by disintegrate isn't a creature anymore, so there's nothing for breath of life to target, and it would therefore fail.
That's my take, anyways.
Rule citation quote needed for this please. I'd love to read it if there is one. Willing to research it more.
Citation requested here on this quote.Says the rule that things that were once alive, and are now dead, are objects. Objects are not creatures.A pile of dust isn't a creature.Says who?
My best recollection of this was that a 3.5 FAQ clarified this point but that no such clarification has been made in Pathfinder to my knowledge. So this is also at GM discretion as to whether or not he accepts 3.5 FAQ as official. Most of us do, except where newer rule changes or FAQs specific to Pathfinder overrule an older 3.5 FAQ or rule. Since there is no such overruling by Paizo, the 3.5 FAQ seems to still be the best source for this rule.
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Rule citation quote needed for this please. I'd love to read it if there is one. Willing to research it more.While this definitely isn't explicitly stated anywhere -
Disintegrate reduces you to a pile of dust and equipment.
Breath of Life requires a creature to target, and can target creatures who died the round before.
The pile of dust left behind by disintegrate isn't a creature anymore, so there's nothing for breath of life to target, and it would therefore fail.
That's my take, anyways.
Can you provide a rule that states dust is considered a creature?
I would love to read that rule.
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Heres what the rules say for dead, which is where I am drawing my pro BoL ideas:
Dead
The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character's soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.
I've provided my facts, please disprove it with rules if possible.
Rule citation quote needed for this please. I'd love to read it if there is one. Willing to research it more.While this definitely isn't explicitly stated anywhere -
Disintegrate reduces you to a pile of dust and equipment.
Breath of Life requires a creature to target, and can target creatures who died the round before.
The pile of dust left behind by disintegrate isn't a creature anymore, so there's nothing for breath of life to target, and it would therefore fail.
That's my take, anyways.
Can you provide a rule that states dust is considered a creature?
I would love to read that rule.
Can you provide a rule that says it isn't? I'd like to read that too.
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Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.
I see nothing there stating that a disintegrated character has a body, only that if a body were left, it would not suffer negative effects from the passage of time/decay.
The spell you are looking for is:
This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased's time and place of birth or death is the most common method).
Urklore, please cite that a pile of dust is still a creature. :)
However, it does not really matter if a corpse or pile of dust is a creature or not. You will not find anything for this particular corner case. However, a couple points of logic:
1) If Raise Dead cannot work on a disintegrated subject why would Breath of Life (a more restricted spell)? You need Resurrection to restore a disintegrated subject.
2) If you have a dead *body* you can use Breath of Life. There is no body here, it is only dust. There is nothing to breathe life into.
3) What is the current HP total of a disintegrated creature? Lets say it brought you to -1, ie: not dead. How would breath of life restore you to not dead if you are already not dead? Disintegrate destroys your body with the incidental effect that you are dead.
This is a dual effect...damage THEN disintegrate. You are not really dying from the damage, you are being destroyed which results in your death from the disintegrate effect. Breath of Life is not designed to fix that.
- Gauss
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Can you provide a rule that says it isn't? I'd like to read that too.Rule citation quote needed for this please. I'd love to read it if there is one. Willing to research it more.While this definitely isn't explicitly stated anywhere -
Disintegrate reduces you to a pile of dust and equipment.
Breath of Life requires a creature to target, and can target creatures who died the round before.
The pile of dust left behind by disintegrate isn't a creature anymore, so there's nothing for breath of life to target, and it would therefore fail.
That's my take, anyways.
Can you provide a rule that states dust is considered a creature?
I would love to read that rule.
I provided the text for the spell that can bring back a person who no longer has a body.
Something a disintegrated person no longer has.
Of course, if we were going to completely ignore common sense, dead people are still capable of acting normally.
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I disagree that Breath of Life would bring you back, but I suspect you shouldn't have been dusted in the first place. You note that you had taken one point of Con damage, causing your hit points to drop. In Pathfinder, ability damage doesn't effectively lower your ability score. (see: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html#_ability-score-damage-pena lty-and-drain)
So instead of being at -10 hp, you would be at 2 hp. No need for Breath of Life.
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I'd just like to place my thought in on this. After pondering I would call this a grey area that is ultimately up to the GM to call (as always regardless of RAW or RAI). But in that situation considering that BoL is essentially a revival spell on par with Raise Dead and as long as the body is not in a condition that raise dead can manage then BoL would not work as well, consider the fact that the turn to dust part of disintegrate is an extra effect contingent upon the creature's death from the damage.
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Breath of life targets a creature. Disintegrate doesn't leave behind a creature. Ergo, breath of life does not work. (And Urklore, if you want to argue, why don't you try and prove that a pile of dust is a creature, rules cite that.)
A corpse is not a creature, though. It's an object. I'd say Breath of Life could use either an FAQ or some errata.
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I see a slight problem in the logic that disintegrate makes you a non-creature argument.
Resurrection functions as raise dead targeting wise and Raise dead says Dead Creature touched.
By that logic, since the remains are no longer a creature's, you can't resurrect anyone who has ever been disintegrated.
Breath of Life has no caveat saying it *Cant* bring back someone who was disintegrated, only someone who died from a Death effect.
Furthermore, the portion of resurrection on disintegrate doesn't even say for this effect. So by all means I would interpret that the dust that remains of a creature is still a creature in order for resurrection to target it.
Which means other things could target it.
Like Breath of Life.
Also whose to say a Dead Creature isn't also an object?
The whole scenario reminds me of nothing more than this.
Hooray for the Doc school of medicine I guess?
Scavion,
(The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.)
Why would they specifically call out that the remains of a disintegrate spell count as a portion of a body if there is no difference? Clearly, there is a difference.
- Gauss
Scavion,
(The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.)Why would they specifically call out that the remains of a disintegrate spell count as a portion of a body if there is no difference? Clearly, there is a difference.
- Gauss
Gauss, since your so fond of bolding my name!
I'm stating that in order for you to even think about resurrecting someone you need to be able to target a *Dead Creature*. By alot of these people's arguments it seems to me that they no longer consider the dust remains to be a creature therefore you can't resurrect.
gman8176, Looking more closely at the situation you presented you were never disintegrated.
1 point of con damage does not result in a HP loss. You need 2 points of Con damage to result in lost hps.
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.
Thus, as Berinor stated, you were at 2 hps after the disintegrate hit you.
BTW, in the future, I strongly recommend using readied actions to prevent enemy spellcasters from doing *ANYTHING*. Fog Clouds, Blindness, etc are all wonderful methods to stop them from being effective.
- Gauss
Scavion, I am trying to bold people's names so it is clear who things are directed to (rather than the @ convention). I don't always remember to do it. :)
The dust is no longer a creature, however the spell specifically calls out an exception that allows it to be used.
- Gauss
Scavion, I am trying to bold people's names so it is clear who things are directed to (rather than the @ convention). I don't always remember to do it. :)
The dust is no longer a creature, however the spell specifically calls out an exception that allows it to be used.
- Gauss
Gauss, A likely story.
The spell doesn't call out an exception, to do so it would state something along the lines of The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body for this effect.
The way its written seems to be a clarification that the dust of a creature still counts for a dead creature in order for spells that target *Dead Creature* to target them.
My logic for this.
Target is viable: Check.
Apply Effect then.
If the target isn't viable, which by your logic it flat out wouldn't be because the dust isn't considered a *Dead Creature* by your logic then you can't apply the effect.
Except "Target is viable" is not the only thing you need.
Disregard whether it can be targeted, move on to WHY WOULD IT WORK?
Even bringing someone back up to 1+ HP will not un-disintegrate them.
It might be interesting to RP the effects of being a living, conscious and aware, pile of dust, but the fact remains that it does not restore things like that.
It heals 5d8+Caster level of damage to a dead target. Nothing more.
If the guy's leg were chopped off it wouldn't fix that either.
And the whole "Well he disintegrates slowly over a a period of rounds" thing is bunked pretty much just because of the duration of Disintegrate (Instantaneous not "Over some indeterminate period of time").
Except "Target is viable" is not the only thing you need.
Disregard whether it can be targeted, move on to WHY WOULD IT WORK?
It heals 5d8+Caster level of damage to a dead target. Nothing more.
Aside from a blanket, It's magic, there is no stipulation of Breath of Life stating it can't do these things. The fact you have to do it in the very same round in order for it to work makes me think it *should* be able to handle it.
If the guy's legs were chopped off, it would totally bring that guy back to life. He'd be bleeding a bit, but alive and just a regeneration away from back to normal.
My biggest problem with this thread is the line of thinking that the dust is no longer a creature.
No, I won't disregard targeting because bar that, Breath of Life CAN work.
Aside from a blanket, It's magic, there is no stipulation of Breath of Life stating it can't do these things.
But MUCH more importantly there's no stipulation saying it CAN do those things.
Spells, Feats, Class abilities, and everything else do what they SAY they do, not everything they DON'T say they CAN'T do.
Magic Missile doesn't say it can't make a Bull Rush at +100000 and shove people off of cliffs either but I'm sure if I showed up at your table with a Magic Missile Bull Rush build based on that fact you wouldn't allow it.
That, and simple logic (Why can a 5th level spell with no material cost replicate a 7th level spell effect that costs 10k gp?) shows why this doesn't work.
Scavion, Im confused. You stated what the spell calling out an exception would look like and what you stated is pretty much exactly what it states. It DOES call out an exception.
The spell doesn't call out an exception, to do so it would state something along the lines of The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body for this effect.
Note: I bolded the relevant portion.
(The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.)
So, you are stating that for it to mean that it would have to call out an exception that it already calls out? Could you clarify what you mean?
Dust is not a creature, not even a dead creature's body, unless an exception is made. Resurrection has shown this.
- Gauss
Scavion, Im confused. You stated what the spell calling out an exception would look like and what you stated is pretty much exactly what it states. It DOES call out an exception.
The spell doesn't call out an exception, to do so it would state something along the lines of The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body for this effect.Note: I bolded the relevant portion.
(The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.)So, you are stating that for it to mean that it would have to call out an exception that it already calls out? Could you clarify what you mean?
Dust is not a creature, not even a dead creature's body, unless an exception is made. Resurrection has shown this.
- Gauss
Gauss, There is a world of different between adding *For this effect* and omitting it.
I take that statement within Resurrection to clarify that that dust is still considered a dead creature because it doesn't say *For this effect*.
I would say Breath of Life CAN do it Rynjin because it has the further exception of needing to be cast in the same round.
Breath of Life states that it can't bring creatures back from a Death effect. Disintegrate is not a death effect ergo Breath of Life can bring it back.
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Ok, lets take a different tack: Could Breath of Life bring someone back who is say, dead from Flesh to Stone? There is no HP damage to repair and yet they are still dead. Nor is it a death effect.
Simply put, I do not think that Breath of Life is intended to restore creatures who are dead from something besides HP damage.
How about Phantasmal Killer? Another non-death effect that kills instantly without doing any actual damage.
Lets go in even another (related) direction:
Half-Orc with the feat Tenacious Survivor dies from Phantasmal Killer (without taking damage). Can a Cure spell bring him back? No. Why? Because there was no HP damage.
How does that relate you ask? Because Breath of Life, at it's core, is a 5th level Cure Spell. It was even called Cure Deadly Wounds at one point in the development cycle.
Breath of Life is not a Raise Dead type spell. It is a Cure type spell that will bring someone back from death by HP damage. If there is not HP damage to repair then it really doesn't do anything.
- Gauss
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Says the rule that things that were once alive, and are now dead, are objects. Objects are not creatures.A pile of dust isn't a creature.Says who?
By that reasoning, BoL doesn't work on any creature killed by anything.
Ok, lets take a different tack: Could Breath of Life bring someone back who is say, dead from Stone to Flesh? There is no HP damage to repair and yet they are still dead. Nor is it a death effect.
Simply put, I do not think that Breath of Life is intended to restore creatures who are dead from something besides HP damage.
How about Phantasmal Killer? Another non-death effect that kills instantly without doing any actual damage.
Lets go in even another (related) direction:
Half-Orc with the feat Tenacious Survivor dies from Phantasmal Killer (without taking damage). Can a Cure spell bring him back? No. Why? Because there was no HP damage.How does that relate you ask? Because Breath of Life, at it's core, is a 5th level Cure Spell. It was even called Cure Deadly Wounds at one point in the development cycle.
Breath of Life is not a Raise Dead type spell. It is a Cure type spell that will bring someone back from death by HP damage. If there is not HP damage to repair then it really doesn't do anything.
- Gauss
There are two conditions that cause BoL to fail.
1) The creature died from a death effect.
2) After receiving the healing, the creature's HP are a negative amount greater than their Constitution score.
3) Not mentioned in the spell specifically, but BoL does not remove conditions (other than Dead).
If you want a spell to make a creature unrecoverable from BoL, you have to show how it causes it to fail on either of those counts.
With Stone to Flesh causes you to become petrified, which is a condition in the glossary. BoL does not remove that condition, so it has no effect on Stone to Flesh.
Irontruth, My bad, I mistated it. I meant Flesh to Stone. I have corrected it. :)
If you are dead from Flesh to Stone what is your HP?
However, you bring up a good point, BoL does not change you from dust to flesh. :)
- Gauss
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Aside from a blanket, It's magic, there is no stipulation of Breath of Life stating it can't do these things.
But MUCH more importantly there's no stipulation saying it CAN do those things.
Spells, Feats, Class abilities, and everything else do what they SAY they do, not everything they DON'T say they CAN'T do.
Magic Missile doesn't say it can't make a Bull Rush at +100000 and shove people off of cliffs either but I'm sure if I showed up at your table with a Magic Missile Bull Rush build based on that fact you wouldn't allow it.
That, and simple logic (Why can a 5th level spell with no material cost replicate a 7th level spell effect that costs 10k gp?) shows why this doesn't work.
Ya but isn't there a general rule already posted above saying is CAN?
<snip>"but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death"</snip>
so by that logic, before the time of death, he wasn't dust.