@lemeres That looks more monster npc to me, and may invalidate a lot of what he wants to roleplay, which is having his crafter PC working up a storm in town at his shop, but still be an active, and pretty useful psuedu-spellcaster in the adventuring group.
Though "I" do like that unfettered Eidolon, I forgot about those. I don't think that's really the direction the PC wants to go in. I almost see this as a power step down for the player, how is effectively playing a level 1 Eidolon in a level 4 party arrangement.
yes, I agree, the catching up aspect will be a hurdle. An interesting side note on that is using teleport, or other travel magic, as the Eidolons UMD is very high, should get it back, or darn close, the next day when it is eligible to return.
The Summoner also has access to Lessor Restoration thanks to Forgemaster(cleric), and plans to forgo sleep while the Eidolon is not dead. So he may start the day, and every day, erasing his fatigue status from not sleeping via magic. Keeping his Eidolon active at all times.
Edit: I don't actually see under item creation where he needs actual sleep in the amount of 8 hours to perform crafting.
I had an interesting PC concept brought my attention and I'm curious what you all think on the matter.
The concept is thus:
A player has created a new PC, a Forgemaster[3] | Summoner[1] who is interested in being the Magic Item Creation monkey of the group. His concept is that he wants no part in actual combat, as you could totally be killed doing that, so stays in town while his Eidolon does all the heavy lifting.
He plans to accomplish this by crafting an item to grant a continuous Unfetter spell effect for his Eidolon. The only issue I see there is that he couldn't use the 'Life link' ability, but that doesn't seem to be a deal breaker.
He will still retain the Eidolon special ability by a similar name called 'link', which is handy as he can remain in constant mental contact with his Eidolon from wherever he is. (most likely in town still.)
Using the UMD skill he plans to use lots of scrolls and Wands, with little to no failure due to buffing his Chr, using skill boosting items, and taking 'skilled' for the +8 UMD racial bonus.
So far no real issues at all with this build as this is a fairly standard use for an Eidolon.
Here is where I'd like to hear some feedback from you all.
1.) Would the summoner earn full XP, or any XP for that matter, for engaging in fights he wasn't "physically" present for, even though technically it is his summoned creature involved in the fight? This is assuming the summoner is "mentally" involved in the fight. Directing the Eidolon, providing advice, dictating where and who to attack etc.
Is there a RAW rule saying he shouldn't earn XP in this scenario? I can't think of one off the top of my head, but would love to hear if anyone has an opinion either way.
And as a follow up, if the summoner IS mentally involved in the fight, does that mean he can't earn a full days crafting pace as he is no longer resting in town, does purely mental actions disrupt this?
Feel free to drop your 2 cents, or cite RAW at me. Thanks!
With the body in the negatives it's still 'alive' sure. But when the witch is in the familiars body your a guest. To transfer back requires you to 'touch' the body.
If it's in a portable hole and your familiar dies (or is about to), it would swap bodies with you and save itself, no choice either it just happens according to the text. (that's all kinds of funny btw)
But you wouldn't be able to, as it's a touch action to set yourself back into your original, and hidden, body.
p.s. it would be VERY wise to have a clone ready, or Magic Jar yourself into a new body immediately. A soul with no where to go is a bad idea.
In this scenario:
1. The Witch dies.
2. The familiar now resides in the Witches body with full control. (and thanks you for it's new Magic Jar ability)
3. There is no written range limit, nor restricting words vrs dimensional space or even planes. So it should work this way no matter where the bodies are.
Disclaimer: I'm not keen on PFS and if anything does affect those rules however.
No. Everything you just said is wrong.
The way twin soul works as written is as long as there is a safe place for EITHER soul to go to avoid death it goes there automatically (ie. no action).
In the OP's question both the witch & the familiar leap out of the familiars dying body and retreat to the witch's recovering body (no matter how far away it is).
From there when this body recovers enough to wake up it has 2 souls in it and can go and restore the original familiar body, clone a copy of it or simply steal a new body from anything else that has a soul.
The only way to kill a twin-soul'd witch is both bodies have to die at about the same time.
p.s. I don't see this "EITHER" soul business you are talking about what it says is:
"At 10th-level, if the witch or her familiar is gravely injured or about to die, the soul of the dying one immediately transfers to the other’s body."
The soul of the familiar would indeed go to the 'dying witch body shoved in a portable hole', but the witch is going to die. It's already in the 'other' body, and now has no where to go.
With the body in the negatives it's still 'alive' sure. But when the witch is in the familiars body your a guest. To transfer back requires you to 'touch' the body.
If it's in a portable hole and your familiar dies (or is about to), it would swap bodies with you and save itself, no choice either it just happens according to the text. (that's all kinds of funny btw)
But you wouldn't be able to, as it's a touch action to set yourself back into your original, and hidden, body.
p.s. it would be VERY wise to have a clone ready, or Magic Jar yourself into a new body immediately. A soul with no where to go is a bad idea.
In this scenario:
1. The Witch dies.
2. The familiar now resides in the Witches body with full control. (and thanks you for it's new Magic Jar ability)
3. There is no written range limit, nor restricting words vrs dimensional space or even planes. So it should work this way no matter where the bodies are.
Disclaimer: I'm not keen on PFS and if anything does affect those rules however.
I looked at that earlier and was tempted to use the swept away rules. Was wondering movement rates in waist high water ... hald or quarter movement or full round with swim check. I know they have rules listed in bogs and swamps too
By RAW I don't see any penalties to movement, other than being swept away if it's a strong enough current, and that doesn't apply a movement penalty per say, it just moves you downstream depending on it's strength.
Reincarnate is a 4th level spell that by all means is better than Raise Dead AND Resurrection with a far less cost. You might say "Oh man but at what roleplaying cost", but honestly its just a cool roleplaying opportunity with the bonus of coming back to life.
I don't think the disintegrated half-orc barbarian will agree with you after he is reincarnated as a gnome, loses two levels, loses a bunch of STR, is too small to wield his magical greataxe or wear his magical armor, and even after he replaces those, he finds he must forever do much less damage than he used to - this guy is VERY unlikely to agree that his Reincarnation is just "a cool roleplaying opportunity".
I'd find this fun to roleplay, and would be quite eager to get reincarnated again to see what happens next time.
Edit 2: Oh I see you posted recovery without help rules, which doesn't even apply here, and doesn't help your argument. He has help, someone cast BoL on him. So the part you pasted is irrelevant I beleive.
Not at all. Just because he was healed to -4, unless someone is attending to him, he still begins to die. My statement was, if nothing is done for him, he bleeds out in 11 hours. That means he's not being attended to. Do you see how that works now?
However, the general rule you stated shouldn't leave him in a position where he could bleed out after being healed.
This isn't relevant to the original posters scenario however, I'm arguing right up to the point he is brought back from disintegration that's it.
After that is a new round, and that's where your arguments, counters seem to stem from. I'm here, your over there somewhere. Come over this side of the fence and first prove me wrong about BoL being unable to do what is written, then we can talk aftermath.
If any sort of healing cures the dying character of even 1 point of damage, he becomes stable and stops losing hit points.
You could read this as breath of life stabilizing the character or as only bringing him back to dying, thus requiring a second healing spell (or Con check, or other stabilizing action) to stabilize. Take your pick.
BoL states it stabilizes you at your new hp total. No need for further roles to stabilize. Yes you can have a total of -4 and be alive and not bleeding to death.
Now hold on, the way it looks to me is that "magic that restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death."
Now breath of life has to do one of these because it's magic that restores a dead creature to life.
BoL is specifically an exception to this general rule.
Proof : Skiv goes from 30 hp to -19 hp, with a 15 con, in one hit. He dies. Condition of Skiv immediately prior to death? 30hp, no holes in his guts. BoL is cast, and he's now at -4 hp. He's not fully restored, and he's not in the condition he was immediately prior to death. He's slowly dieing, and without assistance, will bleed out in 11 hours (when his HP reach -15 again).
Wrong. -4 is less than his negative con, so BoL stabilizes him at -4 and he stops bleeding. He's going to pull through in this scenario.
Recovering without Help: A severely wounded character left alone usually dies. He has a small chance of recovering on his own. Treat such characters as those attempting to recover with help, but every failed Constitution check to regain consciousness results in the loss of 1 hit point. An unaided character does not recover hit points naturally. Once conscious, the character can make a DC 10 Constitution check once per day, after resting for 8 hours, to begin recovering hit points naturally. The character takes a penalty on this roll equal to his negative hit point total. Failing this check causes the character to lose 1 hit point, but this does not cause the character to become unconscious. Once a character makes this check, he continues to heal naturally and is no longer in danger of losing hit points naturally.
Seeing as you linked the entire combat section what general rule or wording in there is superseding the wording of the specifics of BoL? I'd love to read it.
edit:
was it this?
Hit Points
When your hit point total reaches 0, you're disabled. When it reaches –1, you're dying. When it gets to a negative amount equal to your Constitution score, you're dead. See Injury and Death, for more information.
Because even in injury and death being at -4 is not dead, it's dying, and you can stabilize, however all that is moot.
BoL says specifically it stabilizes you if you are brought above what your negative con score is.
You can read more under Stable Characters and Recovery section.
Edit 2: Oh I see you posted recovery without help rules, which doesn't even apply here, and doesn't help your argument. He has help, someone cast BoL on him. So the part you pasted is irrelevant I beleive.
Now hold on, the way it looks to me is that "magic that restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death."
Now breath of life has to do one of these because it's magic that restores a dead creature to life.
BoL is specifically an exception to this general rule.
Proof : Skiv goes from 30 hp to -19 hp, with a 15 con, in one hit. He dies. Condition of Skiv immediately prior to death? 30hp, no holes in his guts. BoL is cast, and he's now at -4 hp. He's not fully restored, and he's not in the condition he was immediately prior to death. He's slowly dieing, and without assistance, will bleed out in 11 hours (when his HP reach -15 again).
Wrong. -4 is less than his negative con, so BoL stabilizes him at -4 and he stops bleeding. He's going to pull through in this scenario.
@Urklore: Insulting to the intelligence of your opponents, perhaps. Please keep in mind that you have, in this thread, tried to tell us that a dictionary definition is not "specific" enough to tell us what a word means in the absence of a game term, and you have demanded we prove to you that piles of dust are not alive.
Do you understand why that could be frustrating? What if someone asked you, at work or school, to prove you weren't actually taking a sick day at home. You'd say your presence there with them proved it, but they'd just say there's no proof you can't be in two places at once.
The RAW is not outright explicit about this issue, but spells in this game series do what they say they do, modified my any general rules, no more and no less. BoL says it can raise someone from the dead. It says nothing about restoring the body. The section under "Magic" for Raising the Dead does not say anything about restoring the body, but it describes that there must *be* a body. The only unclear bit is the section under "Dead" that said that magic restores the body.
Because that is under dispute, you cannot claim that the RAW supports you; not yet.
The section in Dead is being disputed because the rest of the sentence, and the following sentence, are being ignored. Those sentences talk about dead bodies decaying; the rules say they do so normally, but if raised, the decay is erased.
If you're trying to tell me that "restores" has a broader meaning than it does in context, like the poster above, then I'm sorry, but you invalidated using dictionary definitions to justify interpretations of the rules, per "disintegrate".
If you feel frustration it wasn't from any insults generated by me, there have been zero.
Also, I've never quoted anything from a dictionary either. I've pasted (pretty much) once paragraph from RAW this entire time, and left all thematics out of play, just simple RAW debate.
However, as a general rule exists for this scenario, and let me just paste this little nugget again for reference, in case you missed it:
Condition: DEAD:
Dead
The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character's soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.
This says spells that bring you back to life, restore your body to full health or to the condition at the time of death.
Now look at Breath of Life again, to see if a specific rule contained therein over rides this:
Breath of Life:
This spell cures 5d8 points of damage + 1 point per caster level (maximum +25).
Unlike other spells that heal damage, breath of life can bring recently slain creatures back to life. If cast upon a creature that has died within 1 round, apply the healing from this spell to the creature. If the healed creature's hit point total is at a negative amount less than its Constitution score, it comes back to life and stabilizes at its new hit point total. If the creature's hit point total is at a negative amount equal to or greater than its Constitution score, the creature remains dead. Creatures brought back to life through breath of life gain a temporary negative level that lasts for 1 day.
Creatures slain by death effects cannot be saved by breath of life.
Like cure spells, breath of life deals damage to undead creatures rather than curing them, and cannot bring them back to life.
It's restricting wording says that it cannot bring back anyone that died from a 'death effect'. Check! We're good here.
You can't be dead for more than 1 round. Check! We're good here.
If the healing done moves to a number less than your negative con score you are brought back to life, and stabilized at your new hp total.
RAW is printed right there, how is this not specific enough for you? There's no other restrictions made on the spell by RAW. RAW wins, even if you think common sense trumps it.
If anyone had a RAW reason why they would of used it by now. If there is a RAW reason go ahead and paste it in and cite the source, I'd be happy to check it out and see what it has to say on the matter.
RAW, I see nothing in BoL that turns you back into a person from a trace of fine dust. Whether it can bring you "back to life" is therefore moot. You're a pile of dust.
This
Breath of Life is not a transmutation effect. It won't recreate a body.
If if it did raise your hit point total above zero, your still a pile of dust.
According to actual RAW, it would, just going to paste this in here too again, with another section bolded for addressing your post.
" ...but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies."
You are arguing thematics again, which has no place here, as that is up to the DM to determine what/how the in-between works. The RAW rules I posted supports me, your made up fantasy does not.
I have avoided even entertaining arguing with you, as it is not related to the current topic. Feel free to post a new thread with your made up scenario and I'll head over there to comment on why it would or wouldn't work.
Translation : (REDACTED)
Don't make it personal please, no need for that, please delete that comment so I don't have to report it. The sandbox is for nice people to discuss rules not bully people.
May I suggest you look back over your own posts, many of which have been insulting?
You must have me confused with someone else, I took the time to review everyone of my posts and don't see a single post directed at anyone including any kind of insulting remarks. Not even remotely.
Ruling that reducing something to powder does no damage to it is also a house rule.
To answer the question of dragon head / body, if you want to have a Breath of Life that fixes people who have been killed by means that would thwart normal healing, I'd flavor it so that the head and body are reversed in time and reunited. Similarly, the disintegrated body could go back in time six seconds and be a whole person again. I don't think that's RAI, but it wouldn't break the game.
But nothing in the spell says it reverses time, nor that it reunites body parts.
What if the head landed at the base of a cliff, at the feet of the second caster. The two body parts far beyond the spells range?
The point of the argument, of course, is to point out what happens when you ignore reasonableness and insist on spells doing things because they don't say you can't. If it works on a handful of dust and reconstitutes the entire body, it should work on a head, or a hand, or a thigh and do the same thing.
I'm just going to repost this rule I have bolded a few times in regards to how spells work in this scenario, because it kinda does reverse time, at least to the point they died, which was some point in the past, but again the thematics are usually up to the DM, the rules however still support my side of this debate,
" ...but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies."
You are arguing thematics again, which has no place here, as that is up to the DM to determine what/how the in-between works. The RAW rules I posted supports me, your made up fantasy does not.
I have avoided even entertaining arguing with you, as it is not related to the current topic. Feel free to post a new thread with your made up scenario and I'll head over there to comment on why it would or wouldn't work.
Translation : (REDACTED)
Don't make it personal please, no need for that, please delete that comment so I don't have to report it. The sandbox is for nice people to discuss rules not bully people.
either a creature or object takes no damage from being reduced to a fine powder, or because they take so much damage from it that it's not worth specifying an amount because it's so ridiculously high. I choose the latter.
Which you can do, but you just house ruled it.
Ruling that reducing something to powder does no damage to it is also a house rule.
To answer the question of dragon head / body, if you want to have a Breath of Life that fixes people who have been killed by means that would thwart normal healing, I'd flavor it so that the head and body are reversed in time and reunited. Similarly, the disintegrated body could go back in time six seconds and be a whole person again. I don't think that's RAI, but it wouldn't break the game.
Again, Thematics. Leave that to the DM. :) Though I can that being an acceptable outcome if I ran into it.
BizBag, your arguments are RAW only right? No interpretation about adding abilities or whatever to the spell? Then you have a problem. Breath of Life doesn't say anything about a soul, does it? Ergo, a soul is not required to return the dragon head to life, nor the dragon body. So both can be done.
Urklore, your quote has nothing to do with the question. The question is, why can the dust regrow an entire body, but the head can't regrow an entire body? Nothing in the spell says it has to be cast on the largest remnants, it just says dead creature right? The head is a dead creature, so is the body. You can't have it both ways, either you are arguing that the spell doesn't specifically stop something and is therefor allowed yes? Nothing in the spell prevents it from cast on both body parts, and your interpretation leads to two dragons.
You are arguing thematics again, which has no place here, as that is up to the DM to determine what/how the in-between works. The RAW rules I posted supports me, your made up fantasy does not.
I have avoided even entertaining arguing with you, as it is not related to the current topic. Feel free to post a new thread with your made up scenario and I'll head over there to comment on why it would or wouldn't work.
Vorpal weapon hits an undammaged Dragon with a crit on the first attack. Dragon goes from 150hp to -con, and his head pops off and rolls around.
The kobold cleric with the dragon casts BoL on the head. The head is a viable target, by your arguments, it's a body part and the spell doesn't limit it to 'biggest' or anything by your arguments.
Head regrows an entire body.
The kobold Oracle with the dragon casts BoL on the body. The body is a viable target, by your arguments, it's a body part and the spell doesn't limit it to 'biggest' or have any limits about only being the target of the spell once, so the body regrows a head.
Two dragons.
Same applies to humans, instant cloning.
I can repaste the same line I keep bolding if you like.
Here it is again just for you mdt:
...but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death.
However you said: "Head regrows an entire body." That's a house rule you may have made up to support your argument. Thematics are not being discussed here. Just whether it works or not.
If there was a spell that functioned just like disintegrate only after it killed you, it lopped off an arm, what would breath of life do at best? At best you'd be alive, with an arm missing, right? Because cure spells don't regenerate missing body parts.
So think. You lose all of your body parts. Even if you're generous and allow that breath of life restores you to a living condition, you don't have a functional body. So you die again. Or stay dead.
This isn't complicated unless you want it to be. Yes, it's obvious there's some phraseology problems with breath of life's target line since anyone who dies via hitpoint damage isn't a creature anymore. It's equally obvious the text should read "object that was a creature that died from hitpoint damage within the last round" or some such unwieldy verbiage. Meh.
Dead
The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character's soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Dead
For your hit points to change numbers, something has to happen. Disintegrate already tells you how much damage it does, and it's not 1000d6.
The damage specified by disintegrate triggers a further effect - being reduced to dust - if your hit points fall to zero or lower. Being reduced to dust is an example of something happening. The rulebook doesn't specify how much damage you take from being reduced to a fine powder. This is either because a creature or object takes no damage from being reduced to a fine powder, or because they take so much damage from it that it's not worth specifying an amount because it's so ridiculously high. I choose the latter.
Heres what the rules say for dead, which is where I am drawing my pro BoL ideas:
Dead
The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character's soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.
I've provided my facts, please disprove it with rules if possible.
I'd have to say BoL would work here. Nothing in the wording for Desintegrate says you can't be brought back from death with magical aid, so no special rules to consider there. There's no condition called 'disintegrated' either. (Even if other spells call out 'this works on disintegrated targets.)
"Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust. A disintegrated creature's equipment is unaffected."
Given that there isn't a defined condition for "disintegrated", we default to the endoxa, or at least a good dictionary definition. The word means "broken into tiny parts" The spell says those parts are fine dust. I don't think it could be clearer that the body is destroyed.
And you're right; Disintegrate doesn't say you can't be brought back from the dead, but according to CRB 208 under "Bringing Back the Dead", it reads that spells that have this power "involves magically retrieving his soul and returning it to his body." There isn't a body to return this person to; it's dust.
Unless you have something more specific than the dictionary, I'm afraid I disagree with your reasoning. This is magical after all.
Nothing in the wording for Disintegrate says you can't be brought back from death with magical aid, so no special rules to consider there. There's no condition called 'disintegrated' either. (Even if other spells call out 'this works on disintegrated targets.)
So if BOL meets it's own criteria to bring you back, you come back.
