I am wanting to play one but as I am new to the game I must confess that I do not know how to properly make a build. I know it is a prestige class but in terms of racial options, base class, stats, feats etc. I am at a complete loss. I would really appreciate some advice.
A ranger eh? I thought a rogue would be the kinda default option. What races would make a good one?
Well, it requires an exotic weapon proficiency with a type of sword, so you might want to consider Half-Elf (Ancestral Arms variant) or Tengu (Sword-trained) as your race to save a feat. You could further save a feat on Alertness by getting a familiar. If you lack the classes to gain one normally... you can take skill focus (any knowledge skill) and Eldritch Heritage (Arcane Bloodline) to get a familiar. Of course, you've then spent two feats to gain one. :D Familiar can easily be worth it, though. Compsognathus is like having Improved Initiative, for example. And the familiar shares your skill ranks, making it handy for aiding another, and possibly using magic devices like wands later on.
I don't know what the best class to enter it with is. It is charisma-based to an extent... I'd probably go with an Archaeologist Bard (6th level is a good point to bail on that class, and you need 5 levels before you can enter Red Mantis) or a Ninja for my early levels.
For races... you want +charisma, +constitution, and/or (I assume) +Dexterity.
There's a ton of races that get those things. Fetchling (+dex/cha, -wis) might be the most flavorful choice for an assassin. Both Aasimar and Tiefling have dex/cha and con/cha options, I think. There is also Halfling and Gnome, of course. Alternatively, Hobgoblin boosts dex and con.
Or there's the races that will give you sawtooth sabre proficiency.
It's really up to you, there's no clear best choice...
(Tiefling's Blinding Sneak Attack is a pretty nice feat, but in order to get it you'd have to use the basic tiefling, whose +dex/int, -cha is...not helpful for you)
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No.
Rogue is the worst path.
Ranger will give you access to two-weapon fighting without needing the dexterity to acquire the higher feats.
This allows you to invest more in strength, and doing more damage.
Also, the extra feats, Full BAB, two good saves, and 6 skill points a level are good too.
You can also take the Trapper archetype, which will allow you to do all that Trap jazz that Rogues are supposed to be good at.
That archetype also stacks with the Guide or Freebooter archetype, which will give you an alternative to Favored Enemy.
Half elf Ranger 6 (Guide/Trapper) Red Mantis Assassin 10
Stats (15 point) 14 str, 10 dex, 14 con, 10 int, 10 wis, 14 cha, +2 racial to whatever you feel like (I'd go Str)
Feats
1 Weapon Focus Sawtooth Sabre (Ancestral Arms - Sawtooth Sabre)
2 Ranger bonus - Two Weapon Fighting
3 Alertness
4
5 Free Feat
6 Ranger Bonus - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Here on out you can tinker with whatever feats you want, this was just a start. If you can grab it, ability focus (prayer attack) can be handy.
While I accept that bbt's answer is always "Freebooter Trapper Ranger" when someone is considering playing a rogue or rogueish PrC, I'd suggest that the use of Ranger to get around the Dex requirements is less useful when one is planning to prestige out of their starting class. GTWF is swell and all, but is getting it at level 20 (assuming that Grond is finishing RMA before going back to Ranger) really worthwhile? For that matter, is delaying the PrC for an extra level to get ITWF without meeting the requirements worthwhile?
There's lots of possible ways into the class, some of which will work better with the class than others might. Certainly Rogue, or perhaps Fighter / Rogue is the intended way in.
There are four feats required along with five ranks of various skills, so it can't be entered at level six without any bonus feats. It's probably best to try and get at least two of them for free though.
Alertness can be obtained by having a familiar of any sort. This would require either a caster dip or a pair of feats. Neither really strikes me as preferable to just taking the feat. (Unless you've got further plans for the familiar.)
EWP can be obtained for free by being a half-elf (and giving up skill focus) or a tengu, or by dipping one level of cleric.
Weapon Focus can also be had for free with a cleric dip if you take the crusader archetype.
TWF as far as I know, can only be received as a bonus feat via Ranger, as bbt suggested.
And of course fighters get tons of bonus feats.
I'd suggest Crusader 1 / Ninja 4 or Crusader 1 / Fighter 2 / Ninja 2. Getting access to a charisma-based ki pool to get an extra attack makes a lot of sense to me, given that RMA is a charisma caster. Fighter levels instead of ninja levels gets two feats in exchange for a talent (which could be a feat if you wanted), uncanny dodge and 1d6 SA - which way to go depends on a variety of other things, including race and overall build focus. (Another option is Weapon Master 3 / Ninja 2; less feats overall, but you get Weapon Training 1 which is equal to a feat and a half.)
Since you'll have to crank Dex and to a lesser extent Charisma, your Strength will be lower, meaning you'll need to rely on your spells to either increase your damage output or increase your opportunities to get SA damage. Just keep your Strength high enough to get Power Attack (I'd say go for a 14 so you keep some Str damage on your off hand). Assuming you're using the Sawtooth Sabre from the Adventurer's Armory, you'll be able to use Finesse with them in order to keep your chance to hit high. (If you are using the Sawtooth Sabre from the ISWG instead then your character is unfortunately getting a little MAD since you can't finesse that version.)
Getting back to race, I'd probably just suggest sticking with human. If you plan to be a skill monkey and/or want to use Eldritch Heritage to get a Familiar rather than just taking the Alertness feat directly then use the Focused Study alternate race trait so you get to (eventually) have three Skill Focuses. If you aren't looking to be a skill monkey, just use your bonus feat on Alertness and move on.
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Ninja actually synergizes very well with the RMA, making it far superior to Rogue.
If you go the STR route, Ranger is by far the best way to enter the PrC. If you use Gluttons build above slip in Quickdraw as your 5th level feat (or better yet swap places w/Alertness).
You will get a lot of use of being able to 2-hand one Sabre while getting into position to set up your sneak attacks. Once in position you free action draw the second sabre, and never miss a full attack opportunity.
To be honest though the Ninja route makes for a more versatile assassin later on - at least that's what I found when running the CotCT for my group... I rebuilt the RMA's so that all the mooks were Ranger entry and Cinnabar was ninja entry. The swift action vanishing trick was very useful and vexing against the PC's.
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Oh, it also bears mentioning that the most recent versions of the Sawtooth Sabre are not finesse weapons (the version published in Curse of the Crimson Throne players guide were). This makes the Ranger a bit better for an entry class, in my opinion anyhow.
Now, if your GM is willing to let you use the old version of the Sabre it could make more sense to go Ninja and focus on DEX + CHA. That's basically what I did in CotCT, but it's strictly house rule territory.
Zan Thrax I really don't see your point in the first paragraph. Why a combination of crusader and ninja would be better than 6 lvls of ranger? No ITWF and much less strength means a huge gap in DPR comparison. Even if he never takes GTWF (which he shouldn't take early anyway, since the PrC has medium BAB progression) the ranger entry is still miles ahead in damage. He does not need to sneak because he deals more dmg just by charging. Can continue to raise strength and combine it with the orc bloodline eldritch heritage feats, as you mention, in order to make the damage gap even bigger.
I'm not suggesting that's it's better so much as I'm just tired of seeing "Trapper Freebooter Ranger with dumped Dex" every single time someone asks how to make a dual-wielding rogueish character.
Still, let's assume that we're going with a straightforward human array; three tens, two fourteens, and an eighteen. For the Ranger, we'll obviously put Strength on top, and have Con and Cha high. We pretty much have to stay in Ranger for an extra level to get the second off hand attack. I'll just assume that this will be progressed as Glutton posted above, plus Power Attack. At level six he's BAB 6 for, +9/+4/+9/+4 1d8+4/1d8+2 or +7/+2/+7/+2 1d8+8/1d8+4 w/ PA. He has one Ranger trap (3/day), a +2 Freebooter's Bane ability and the Endurance feat.
At 12th, he's gained Weapon Spec & Greater Weapon Focus, 2d6 SA, and can cast second level spells. He's gained three more feats, none of which can be used to improve his two-weapon fighting as he can't meet the ability pre-reqs. We'll assume that one gets used for Arcane Strike since that's a nice damage boost. So now he's at +15/+10/+15/+10 for 1d8+9/1d8+6 or +12/+7/+12/+7 1d8+15/1d8+9 w/ PA. Next level he'll have BAB 11, but he won't get GTWF until level 20.
At sixth level, the Weapon Master 3 / Ninja 2 has already started the PrC. We'll switch the 18 to Dex, and put the 14 from Con to Str. Level six is about as bad as it will get for BAB - we're only at four, and will have to take ITWF with an actual feat in the future. Same feats, plus Finesse (assuming the original sabre) and a Ninja Trick instead of Endurance and Freebooter's Bane. Attacking at +8/+8 for 1d8+5/1d8+4 normally, +6/+6 for 1d8+9/1d8+6 w/ PA. Can use a ki point to get an extra primary hand attack when needed. Has a 2d6 sneak attack and first level casting.
A 12th level, he's got Weapon Spec, GWF, and GWS from his RMA levels, can cast third level spells and has a total of 4d6 SA. He'll have used one of the feats to take ITWF to catch up. Again we'll assume Arcane Strike. We've still got an unassigned feat (which could be used for TWDefense or Double Slice) and ninja trick. He's at +15/+10/+15/+10 for 1d8+9/1d8+7 or +12/+7/+12/+7 1d8+15/1d8+11 w/PA. He's still got the option to get an extra primary hand attack. His SA is 4d6 to the Ranger's 2d6. BAB 11 is three levels away rather than one, but he can take GTWF as soon as he gets there.
Crusader 1 / Ninja 4 entry will drop Str to 13 to get a 12 Wisdom. Lower damage w/ the one lower chance to hit and the same feats. (Gets a jump start on feats though if one is playing from level one - TWF, Finesse, EWP, and WF all at level one.) Gained a second ninja trick, 1d6 channel and a domain ability. +5/+5 for 1d8+3/1d8+2 (+4/+4 for 1d8+5/1d8+3 PA). 3d6 SA, first level cleric casting & first level RMA casting.
At 12th, he's much the same as the Weapon Master. No weapon training, but he's got extra ninja goodness and the cleric abilities instead. +13/+8/+13/+8 for 1d8+8/1d8+7 (+10/+5/+10/+5 for 1d8+14/1d8+10 PA) w/ 5d6 SA.
As I see it, there's not much difference in the damage of one over the other. The Ranger will have a few more hit points, as well as more skill points (which he'll need to use to keep his Dex skills maxed since he has no Dex). If this is a society character, none of them will ever get BAB 11 or GTWF, so that'd be a wash. On the other hand, if it's a society character, entering the PrC at level six instead of at level seven means getting third level RMA spells and Greater Weapon Spec as a capstone.
I personally think that the possibilities I suggested are more interesting and rounded than the Ranger entry, and as I said, I'm just weary of seeing "Freebooter Trapper Ranger" as the only acceptable option in every single thread where someone wants to make a Rogueish character.
I'd just try to get the DM to allow the finesse version of sawtooth sabre and do a Dex/Cha/Con build with Agile property on the swords. The prestige class is MAD enough even with that set up, without ALSO needing strength for your actual attack/damage modifiers.
Quickdraw is nice but not needed because of the Glove of Storing. Until you can afford it you can do the same trick at a lesser extend with spring loaded wrist sheath (works only on the first round of combat).
You can't really do that with a pair of sawtoothed sabers. They are long enough to count as longswords, and wrist sheaths specifically call out how they are meant for dagger and wand sized objects (so generally light weapons)
Admitedly, you could just pair one saber with a dagger for your TWF until you get the gloves of storing (which should be around the levels where the prestige class starts to give you all those bonus feats). You only lose out on your weapon focus on your offhand attack that way. It also gives a bit of a ranged option when an opponent tries to escape.
Would weapon cords be an option? I am unsure whether they interfere with two handing a weapon. Although it would be a bit cheesy even it they didn't.
If you want a truly unique and kinda goofy way of entering, I've been toying around with a high wisdom entry Crusader Cleric 1 / Martial artist 4 entry into RMA, with enough dex to pick up TWF as a "wasted" feat (as you will be flurrying), guided hand for +hit, and Mantis style (flavour ahoy!) with Ki weapons delivering stunning attacks with your sawtooth sabres. Goofy as heck but might be a blast to play, especially in a campaign with high stats, as it is MAD as all get-out.
Also, as half elf, if you can burn a feat on EWP sawtooth sabre, you can get the drow magic racial ability, which qualifies you for arcane strike, CL = your level. Arcane strike is quite nice on a dual wielder.
As an aside on freebooter: an actual RMA that is working solo would get more oomph from guide in my mind, but freebooter is better in a team situation by quite a bit. But I do have a question about it that has nagged me a bit, how long does Freebooters Bond last?
I'd was thinking about Crusader 1 / Monk X with Crusader's Flurry. A ki-flurry is a nice option at low levels after all. It also allows you to only really need one of your sabres to be a level-appropriate magic weapon instead of two since you'll just flurry with the main one. (The second one is just for feinting with I guess.)
But I wound up disliking it for the same reason that I don't like using Ranger shenanigans to advance TWF without the prerequisites - you have a good reason to stay in a base class instead of getting on with your PrC. Well, that and it's unbelievably feat intensive; especially when you have to completely waste a feat on TWF.
ArchivesofNethys says it's not. I never actually checked before; I don't play any Society games (as far as I know there isn't one to play in my city) so never think to check what is or isn't legal in it. I guess everyone can disregard my comments about the benefits of getting started in the PrC at level six.
Since a red mantis is a caster, and since it doesn't appear to have any important swift actions, would arcane strike be useful?
Admittedly, your caster level would only be 10 at most from the prestige class alone, but that still represents an additional +3 to damage per hit. With such a TWF class as this, that is a rather nice bonus that can be multiplied over a few attacks.
I would like to see a Bard build, or a four armed Alchemist.
Well again, if going Bard, I suggest Archaeologist. It's the most multi-class friendly bard archetype, IMO. Partly because it loses the least compared to other bards... Level 6 is a great breakpoint, though. You've got full "trapfinding" (actually better), Luck +2 (+3 with fate's favored trait), Uncanny Dodge, a rogue talent (opening up Extra Rogue Talent), and Evasion.
Half-Elf Archaeologist Bard 6
Feats:
1 Exotic Weapon Proficiency (sawtooth sabre) [Half-Elf]
1 Lingering Performance
3 TWF
4 Weapon Focus [Weapon Training talent]
5 Alertness
Traits: Fate's Favored, ??
How is that? Ready to enter at level 7. You could enter at level 6 without changing anything, you'd just lose out on Evasion and disarming magical traps, and the rather nice +1 to all BAB/saves that 6th level in a base class brings. *shrug* I'd wait another level.
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"Normal Bard" is no longer a single flavor.
To force one type of flavor for the Bard, is an archaic practice, needlessly creating restrictions that should not exist.
The numerous archetypes, and published example NPCs defy this old flavor archetype of ancient editions.
Free yourself of your prejudices, as the stereotypes belong in a grave.
Embrace the new Bard.
I'd avoid relying on a familiar for the Alertness feat, as you lose ALL RMA class abilities if your familiar is more than 5' away from you, since you lose the prereqs to the class. That's a pretty nasty hit, even if your familiar is a toad that lives in your backpack.
Seems to me that if RMA is the flavor you're going for, Ftr2/Ninja3 is the easiest and most effective way to get there. It's probably not the most powerful, but that's what I would assume a "standard" Red Mantis Assassin build would be, along with Ranger2/Ninja3 with Favored Enemy (humans) and the Two-Weapon Style.
Depending on weapon choices available to it, the Swashbuckler class from the ACG will likely also be a good route into the RMA class. Non-level-dependant grit mechanics and Charisma as an important stat for a full-BAB, Dex-based character certainly seems like an interesting route to the class.
I could see Dervish Dancer, Dervish of Dawn, or Arcane Duelist bards (being more melee focused) as good complements to this PrC.
Note on Dervish of Dawn, while you would normally expect Sarenae's followers to be Good, there is no mechanic that requires non-divine spell casters to be within one step of their deity's alignment that I know of.
Also, if playing in a non-Golorian setting, Dervish of Dawn could be a better fit with RMA (maybe a follower of Amaunator in FR).
By normal, I meant vanilla, obviously. The "hey, I sing to buff my friends" bard.
Because that sort of bard going into RMA makes total sense...
I could see Dervish Dancer, Dervish of Dawn, or Arcane Duelist bards (being more melee focused) as good complements to this PrC.
Note on Dervish of Dawn, while you would normally expect Sarenae's followers to be Good, there is no mechanic that requires non-divine spell casters to be within one step of their deity's alignment that I know of.
Also, if playing in a non-Golorian setting, Dervish of Dawn could be a better fit with RMA (maybe a follower of Amaunator in FR).
Except for the fact that you need to follow the teaching of Sarenrae in order to be a Dervish of Dawn, and joining what basically amounts to a cult to a god of murder for hire seems...against that. I think that any GM worth his salt should prevent this, especially since that archetype could be seen as power gaming.
I classify it as power gaming because DoD provides you with twice the normal benefits of performances such as inspire courage. For a TWF build, that is basically getting the Rage class feature as far as your attacks are concerned at level 1. With just 5 or 6 levels of DoD, you are getting +4 to attack and damage on a TWF based build (which makes it even worse). That is better than a full set of weapon focus and specialization, as well as the greater versions, which the PRC provides anyway.
Now, there will be response to this post about how a GM can allow anything at their table, especially when things are not being set on Golarian, and that is true, but this just seems dirty. I could rule that kobold PC's get +4 to all stats, but it would be a poor choice balance-wise and flavor-wise.
Except for the fact that you need to follow the teaching of Sarenrae in order to be a Dervish of Dawn, and joining what basically amounts to a cult to a god of murder for hire seems...against that. I think that any GM worth his salt should prevent this, especially since that archetype could be seen as power gaming.
I classify it as power gaming because DoD provides you with twice the normal benefits of performances such as inspire courage. For a TWF build, that is basically getting the Rage class feature as far as your attacks are concerned at level 1. With just 5 or 6 levels of DoD, you are getting +4 to attack and damage on a TWF based build (which makes it even worse). That is better than a full set of weapon focus and specialization, as well as the greater versions, which the PRC provides anyway.
Now, there will be response to this post about how a GM can allow anything at their table, especially when things are not being set on Golarian, and that is true, but this just seems dirty. I could rule that kobold PC's get +4 to all stats, but it would be a poor choice balance-wise and flavor-wise.
I don't really see that you made an argument except that you think it would be over powered. That's a fine opinion for you to have but its just your opinion.
I don't see how it would be different, mechanically, from just doing DoD/fighter for the focus, spec, and greater versions. There's nothing to stop any DoD from TWF so its not a problem specific to this PrC. Do you just not like DoD's mechanics?
@I hate Nickelback
Yes, if you stop worshipping Sarenrae you lose the archetype (which is strange mechanically) and become a normal bard. But there is no mechanics for worship outside of divine casters. A Keleshite character could worship Sarenrae due to his background/cultural influences but still be of divergent alignment.
I really appreciate the advice guys. I admit it never would have occurred to me to look for a ranger as a base class for a RMA prestige class.
Question though: Where is this archetype that is mentioned several times in the thread? I have the core book, advanced player and race guides and I don't see a Guide/Trapper in them. Where can I find it? I thought it must be a Half Elf only racial archetype but I can't find it.
Freebooter is in Pirates of the Inner Sea. Guide is in the APG. Trapper is in Ultimate Magic.
Remember, d20pfsrd.com is your friend.
Even if you need the book (for PFS, for ex.) it will at least tell you what it does and which book to find it in.
Archives of Nethys is easier to use for that sort of thing. It's non-commercial, so none of the names are changed.