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So recently my local PFS has had problems with kids. This may seem like an old man rant or problem but just hear me out.
So most of our group tend to be young college students or old vets. People who tend to take the game seriously, Not too seriously we joke and we make fun but at the end we know the rules and go through on a pace.
But recently we have had an influx of young kids. Some are good and know the rules. but most tend to treat it as video game night, brining firends over and disrupting stuff. They make a mess of things and stuff. They ten to not know the rules nor care too. The biggest it problem is that they tend to not stay the night having to commit till 10 or later to finish a game. One game last night failed their scenario because of disrupting kids and one leaving. I am all for getting young ones into the game, but after working all day many people do not want to deal with watching people 10 and younger.
What to do?
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Start a "Kids" table.
Rotate GMs on this table, so no one is having to do it all the time.
Have a rotating player join the group each week, to educate these (very) young players and help them to become the future ambassadors of this hobby while helping the GM stay sane.
Keep them in 1-5 tier, in order to make sure they're getting the best chance to pick up the basic rules.
If there are continuing problems, speak with the organizer and/or store(?) owner about getting into contact with the parents of the children if they are not also attending the PFS event.
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For our events, we ask parents to accompany their children at any gameday and we have never had a problem with them agreeing to do so. It's the parent's responsibility to take care of their child and teach them polite behavior.
We've relaxed that rule for most kids after we get to know their behavior (we have a 10-year-old who's better behaved than some of our college age players), but that's handled on a case-by-case basis.
If the child cannot commit to the full session time, then maybe running some non-PFS stuff like Beginner Box Kid's Track games that last an hour would be a better solution. When a parent first brings a child to our games, they know the duration of the game. If the children having to leave early becomes a chronic problem, then I would politely explain to the parent that leaving before the scenario ends is disruptive and impacting the fun of the other players. I would ask them to let the child stay later to finish the game or offer shorter games for those children.
Basically, the solution to these problems is to communicate with the parents and get them involved.
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The easiest way to fix the problem is as Jonathan Cary suggested, ask that all children have to be with their parents (except those rare cases where the kids are very well behaved).
This should be the norm everywhere. I'm not saying kids are bad, but I would not want to be responsible for a kid for 4 hours! What if something happens to the kid? Who becomes responsible? I think its SAFER to not allow kids without parents at these sort of events. I'm surprised these rules aren't enforced at all gaming events, mostly for the safety of the children than anything else.
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It would help as well if the OP gave more information as to how the PFS event is being organized, where it is being held, if parents are attending and what (if any) event rules are already in place.
Playing devil's advocate, for a moment...
...I've watched "veteran" gamers come in weekly for PFS at a local game store with their own snacks/drinks, play for 3-5 hours and then leave, without ever spending a single solitary cent in the store, week after week.
...on the opposite side, I've seen younger children be dropped off and, as the OP mentioned, be a disruptive (to the PFS scenario) and rules-naive player, while spending their allowance money on sodas, CCG items, prepainted minis, etc.
As the LGS owner, which one do you want in your store?
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...I've watched "veteran" gamers come in weekly for PFS at a local game store with their own snacks/drinks, play for 3-5 hours and then leave, without ever spending a single solitary cent in the store, week after week....on the opposite side, I've seen younger children be dropped off and, as the OP mentioned, be a disruptive (to the PFS scenario) and rules-naive player, while spending their allowance money on sodas, CCG items, prepainted minis, etc.
As the LGS owner, which one do you want in your store?
Would the latter not also run the risk of alienating the customer base that do purchase food and products at the store with their own income? I know that I would not play at a store where there were a bunch of unsupervised kids running around constantly.
I would hope that an LGS owner doesn't make his primary income from kids buying snacks!
Requiring a parent to accompany the child would most likely resolve the issue without alienating the other parties.
...I've watched "veteran" gamers come in weekly for PFS at a local game store with their own snacks/drinks, play for 3-5 hours and then leave, without ever spending a single solitary cent in the store, week after week....on the opposite side, I've seen younger children be dropped off and, as the OP mentioned, be a disruptive (to the PFS scenario) and rules-naive player, while spending their allowance money on sodas, CCG items, prepainted minis, etc.
As the LGS owner, which one do you want in your store?
Would the latter not also run the risk of alienating the customer base that do purchase food and products at the store? I know that I would not play at a store where there were a bunch of unsupervised kids running around constantly.
I would hope that an LGS owner doesn't make his primary income from kids buying snacks.
Requiring a parent to accompany the child would most likely resolve the issue without alienating the other parties.
odds are on the average the grown person would spend more ( i hope ).
I do sympathize with the LGS when people just use/abuse the playing space and never buy anything.. but...
As a gamer.. NO ONE should be responsible for anyone elses kid.. this aint free babysitting time. If some parent wants to drop their kid off "for a break", its not anyone elses responsibility to watch them, or cater to them.
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I do sympathize with the LGS when people just use/abuse the playing space and never buy anything.. but...
We've also started to implement a re-roll for receipt policy, where if you buy something in the FLGS that day, you can use the receipt for a re-roll just like wearing a PFS shirt or having a Character Folio. Obviously this isn't a campaign rule or anything like that, but it does encourage people to buy things from the store.
I do sympathize with the LGS when people just use/abuse the playing space and never buy anything.. but...We've also started to implement a re-roll for receipt policy, where if you buy something in the FLGS that day, you can use the receipt for a re-roll just like wearing a PFS shirt or having a Character Folio. Obviously this isn't a campaign rule or anything like that, but it does encourage people to buy things from the store.
awesome idea !!
I am not exacty sure how it is orginized. but in general we sign up for scenarios our tier. Walk ins are welcome though. Typically we have 3 fulls tables.
It is held at the back of a very nice store.
The kids are often not accompanied by an adult. Sometimes they are but rarely they actually are. They tend to be left there. Occasionally a parent will sit in the back and just read but then says they have to leave at 8.
Event rules tend to be lax, Respect is the most important. the thing was they brought popcorn and tried catching it in their mouths. So we ended up having to clean.
We have one regular kid who we all like. but he has his "goblins." Friends he brings who do not know the game and never show up again. One of the gm says he treats Pathfinder like coming over to the house and playing video games.
It gets bad bcause we all take this game seriously, so we get annoyed when kids start talking when the GM is doing something
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Since it seems you are not the organizer for the event, your conerns would be better served being brought up with the organizer of the event and not the forums...
That said you can use some of the idea presented here to bring to your organizer.
To give you an example I will tell how we work here. Though these polices are not "official" polices for our local events.
We have multiple game nights and locations and one "major" con we run PFS at.
For one game event, our larger of the events the game day is very adult orientated and though in general we are friendly and nice we do Curse... a lot... that is not something up for change though it is something we have curbed at times. That game night is not child/family friendly and it is not intended to be. In general unless you are being Rude, racist or purposely saying something that hurts another we are fine with cursing. Saying expletives after something messed up or cool happens is the norm here. Because of this we are wary of letting children play at our events. If this came up I would insist first of speaking with the parent before allowing the child to play with us explaining the atmosphere of the game and if the parent had a problem with this I would then tell the parent that they have another option of playing at another of our events at a different location that is purposely made to be family friendly. If the parent had no problem with this I would allow the child to play with parent supervision at first but keep a close eye on the child for problems as you describe of being very disruptive. If the child ended up being very disruptive I would apologize to the parent but tell them until they have matured they can't play with us because they are ruining the games for other and once again point them to the other location.
That all said, I have never had to do this...
For our Convention games we allow anyone to play and control our cursing due to the very public nature of the game.
We where all spit balling Ideas of what to do TBH.
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I personally have no problems at all playing with kids who are focused on the game and mature enough to react to it mostly appropriately. My brother and I started gaming when we were 12, but we also paid attention to the game, so I can sympathize with the youngsters.
But that said, if they are continually messing around, not paying attention, and/or behaving poorly? Parents, I am not your free babysitter - come and get your offspring. If I wanted to watch your children I'd have made some of my own. Little harsh? Maybe. But that is my honest feelings on the matter.
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awesome idea !!I do sympathize with the LGS when people just use/abuse the playing space and never buy anything.. but...We've also started to implement a re-roll for receipt policy, where if you buy something in the FLGS that day, you can use the receipt for a re-roll just like wearing a PFS shirt or having a Character Folio. Obviously this isn't a campaign rule or anything like that, but it does encourage people to buy things from the store.
My newest VL came up with it, wish I could claim the credit :)
Venture-Captain, California—Los Angeles (West LA)
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I am actually very surprised and shocked by this thread. I was under the impression that any child under the age of 18 had to have parental supervision or permission, especially for the games that run into the late evening.
I know that it is a turn-off to enforce that a parent is present however for the safety of the child and the peace of mind that a parent is watching their children, it would behoove all event coordinators,VC,VL, store owners to insist this be taken into account when children are playing.
I know this is a family friendly gaming society however the real world is very dark place that has people who pose with good intentions but may have much darker motives. I have seen and heard of issues where a child was taken off property without anyone being aware, it is a very dangerous thing to let children be unsupervised by people who are not authorized by the parents to supervise children.
I hope this incident is not prevalent as it could be a serious liability to the store owners and potentially the PFS.
I would double check with your local laws, many counties have statutes requiring varying levels of parental supervison. Also, there are possible childcare licensing issues, again depending on local laws.
-j
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I'm a parent of a player who is 11 and he begins to lose focus after two hours. I've played with a few other kids and usually when they're at 14 and under its a bit of a struggle. It doesn't help matters when you have players who don't have children and don't know how to do deal with child behavior. And a few times i've had to butt heads with these players as well because the lack of patience of dealing with other players can be difficult let alone if they are a child.
Kids vary in their ability to focus for 4-5 hours.
Both my kids, 6 and 9, play.
My 9 year old can focus long enough and also GMs some PFS games.
My 6 year old cannot yet focus long enough for a full game, but when she does lose focus, she takes out some coloring or drawing items and quietly does that at the table. When fights start, she get's back into the game for the fight and usually for a bit after the fight.
I have GMed a table at a Con with 5 and 7 year old sisters, with their father and two other random PFS players. The kids contributed as much as the adults to the game play. They too were not able to focus for the whole game, and as with my youngest, they colored when lost their focus.
Parents should be involved - and it should be made clear to the kids and their parents that continually disrupting the table will result in the kids being asked to leave the table. The end time should also be made clear and that the kids are expected to be there for the full session time. For kids under 10, their parents should stay on site.
As with a lot of player/GM issues, communication is a key issue. Make sure the parents and the kids know what is expected and what is not tolerated.
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My wife, boy (11), and I are all PFSers and I always try to have my wife and or I at Little Man's table. If you do have a mixed table, it is usually not a good idea to have the kids sit next to each other if at all possible. My gut reaction would be to steer clear of an all kids table, they would be too distracting to each other, but that's just my two centavos.
After a bit of research, it seems that a number of states strictly require a childcare license for non-residence locations hosting children in the absence of parents or chaperones. Having the kids dropped off to play without their parents present may in fact be illegal, depending on where the gameday is.
-j
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With all due respect, I started gaming when I was 12. The group did not make any exceptions for me where respect and rules were concerned. If I wanted to play, I was expected to be as respectful as the rest of the group and I was expected to learn the game. There was a three strikes and you're out rule that applied to all, regardless of age.
Now, this was long before Pathfinder and the people I gamed with were intelligent, took the game seriously but not too serious, and stated there was nothing that was expected of me that wasn't expected from anyone else at the table.
Adults were asked not to come back again/banned because of their behavior. As I understand it, adult players can still be banned in PFS for behavior, there should not be an exception for kids.
Maybe it's because I come from an old school military family but I completely understood this and became a better gamer for it.
And in the end, if you find the store you play at not to your liking for any reason, kids or otherwise, you do not have to return. It is Your Choice to be there.
*I actually stopped going to one game store because they had Magic the Gathering tournaments during PFS game day. I liked the players and GM, store has an excellent pfs selection, but couldn't hear anything above the tournament.
...I've watched "veteran" gamers come in weekly for PFS at a local game store with their own snacks/drinks, play for 3-5 hours and then leave, without ever spending a single solitary cent in the store, week after week.
Veteran players tend to be smarter with their money. My FLGS charges 1.25 for small pringles. There is a Doller store 5 feet from it where I can get a giant bag of chips for the same price and share it with the table.
I also get free stuff from work so I bring my own water and soda. Kids are spending their parents money so they tend to not care.|
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...I've watched "veteran" gamers come in weekly for PFS at a local game store with their own snacks/drinks, play for 3-5 hours and then leave, without ever spending a single solitary cent in the store, week after week.
Veteran players tend to be smarter with their money. My FLGS charges 1.25 for small pringles. There is a Doller store 5 feet from it where I can get a giant bag of chips for the same price and share it with the table.
I also get free stuff from work so I bring my own water and soda. Kids are spending their parents money so they tend to not care.
So, hotsauceman, a couple of questions for you:
Since you provide your own drinks and snacks, do you also make sure that you clean up after yourself, or do you leave crumbs, empty bags and bottles around for the store employees to clean up?
Do you do other policing around your gaming area, like making sure your chairs are pushed in, and any spills cleaned up when your game is over?
Do you provide any income for the store at all, or do you just use up space there? Do you buy minis, books, modules, supplies, dice, maps or anything at the store?
If all you do is take up space, and provide no income for the store, and possibly increase their costs of operation, what incentive do they have to provide you space for your games?
That is what the poster's quote you are referrencing in your reply is referring to. For someone like he points out, or you, from your post, what is the benefit to the store for providing you gratis gaming space?
Me? When I run at my LFGS, I buy snacks, sometimes board games or supplements, and my players usually get snacks from the store as well. We provide a positive cash flow, even if not a major amount, so we do not cost the store or run over their good will.
If your group comes in, plays games, never spends a dime at the store, and then just leaves, even if you police your gaming area, you are not helping to keep the store open, or keep the owners/employees happy with your presence on-site.
Lamontius was pointing out that, given a choice between disruptive kids who are spending money at the store, and quiet adults who are not spending money at the store, which ones would the store be happier to see?
Yes, I do, I put everything where It belongs when done I help. I put chairs up and make sure everything is in the recycling.
Yes, Granted Not much in Pathfinder But I built nearly my entire 40k armies(2 of them) from that store alone.
And many people spend at the store. A night doesnt go by that a GM doesnt want to draw a complex map and buys it.
And they have an incentive to go and buy there, A voucher program, you spend 5$ to get in and you get 54 store credit.
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Also keep in mind Xander that we are a fairly international forum here. Child care/ supervision laws vary in most countries and while its normally the assumption in here that people are referring to American state/ federal laws.. even thought many forum posters are not American.
What Kinevon and others above have suggested is correct although Im going to take a different tangent in regards to rpg players and their purchases.
I game occasionaly at a store here that has a lot of table space (and a surprisingly small sale space). Its part of an Australian chain in which this style of shop design in the norm. We did have a Friday table running every week/couple of weeks until last month we were told that the space was no longer available. Its fairly easy to see why, we were in a small rpg room and outside there were 10 + tables of Magic players. Who would likely all be buying cards/ sleeves/ drinks/ nibbles etc. There is no way that a table of 5 pfs people were going to compete with that financial output and we were taking up space where magic players could effectively sit.
We still do run games there on Sundays and we do often play with magic tournaments being run right outside the door. THe store owner and his staff are great guys and Its great they can accomodate us. (The D&D Encounters guy is apparently quite flaky.. not turning up to events he has organised to run)
I do try to buy something every time I run/game there