Greetings! Our group has recently opted to transfer our characters from the AD&D 2.0 setting into the Pathfinder setting and I'm looking for some suggestions on what direction to take my character in. Right now, the party composition from 2.0 to Pathfinder is as follows:
Elven ranger --> Elven ranger
Elven wizard --> Elven sorcerer
Half-elf rogue --> Half-elf rogue
Gnome illusionist --> Gnome summoner
Gnome rogue/illusionist --> Gnome alchemist (focus on mutagens)
My character started as a half-elven Cleric/Magic with 15 Str/Dex/Con/Cha and 17 Wis & Int (seriously the best stat rolls I've ever made). I'm looking for something relatively flavorful without being overpowered or too gimpy compared to the rest of my group. So far, I've been leaning towards Oracle (Heavens) as a result of her being dumped into a world where her patron deity doesn't exist; she's still a conduit for divine energy but it's no longer focused on one particular deity. My problem is that I'm not really sure how to reconcile the Wizard half of the equation. It looks like I can either drop the arcane aspect entirely and go full Oracle (the trauma of switching worlds erased her knowledge of wizardry), I can do some sort of Oracle + arcane multi, or I can do Oracle + arcane dip. I'm aware that multi and dipping for primary casters isn't optimal, but for roleplaying purposes I'd still really like to keep some sort of arcane ability.
Other relevant information:
We're starting at level 5
Our DM hopes to take this group to level 20
The only books available for now are Core & the APG as this is still a new system for us and our DM tends to be leery of anything beyond the "core" races and classes; I'm amazed that he's allowing classes from the APG to be honest. This means that Eldritch Heritage is not impossible, but unlikely unless I can convince him otherwise.
I've looked at the available PrCs and I'm not impressed by any of them for this particular character, so I'm not aiming for MT or anything.
I'm not too concerned about having to be a healer for the group as our DM usually works around such things with potions, scrolls, NPCs, etc.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! :)
If the gm allows, you could also be a "concept" cleric, with your belief in. The deity providing its own power, even in the deities absence.
You could have this:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/domains/paizo---domains /magic-domain/arcane
As a domain as well.
I have several characters that date back to pre-2e. Those I wanted to convert I converted. I went through the conversion guide for 3.0 from 2e and then upgraded to 3.5 etc...
But when I converted to Pathfinder I decided to do it differently. What I did was take my characters and simply rebuilt them as Pathfinder characters of comparable level with comparable stats as closely as I could rebuild the character concept.
The end result was a character that was much closer to what I wanted to play in Pathfinder.
For example, I had a 12th level "magic user" that I rebuilt as a 12th level Pathfinder wizard. I had a 16th level ranger that I rebuilt as a 16th level Pathfinder ranger.
Part of that was converting all their stuff too, and in that case I decided to just stick with the WBL guidelines and restock the character with items that were as close as possible to the original items. This was really tough for some of my characters since they apparently were in a Monte Haul campaign.
I carried over their history and backstory as much as possible, but had to do some religious "conversions" to the new theology.
The hardest ones to convert were my multi-class characters and my cleric with psionics. I was not able to come up with any reasonable conversion that retained their level of power in 2e. I came away from that effort convinced that 2e multi-class characters were actually fairly overpowered compared to single class characters. In a few cases I was able to find a workable archetype, but otherwise I just gave up on them and retired them.
multiclassed caster was super sweet back when you split your xp between classes. Your multiclassed caster is probably going to be...less impressive.
There are a few early-entry tricks for Mystic Theurge. Alternatively, consider a Witch. Whatever you do, don't take Lore Oracle for that ability to cast from a spellbook - it's a trap.
Since you obviously have to change a few things anyway I would suggest going straight cleric and finding a pair of domains that give you spells you want from the wizard/sorc list. Clerics get a bad rap, but as prepared casters they have a lot of versitility and can single handedly tip the tide of most battles with a little planning (especially since they 'know' all of the spells on their list).
I would go cleric, with the magic... and something else domain. Fire, for blasting... Protection or Knowledge, maybe, for a scholar feel. Something along those lines though.
What is so bad about the MT ?
In ad&d you would have been 1-2 levels lower than a straight class.
In Pathfinder, you are 2-3 levels lower, but gain a bunch of tricks and class features that didn't exist before.
Also you get the MT abilities to help with action economy. Which is usually the big down fall of dual classes (do X from class Y, or A from class B).
And with your stats, you could play a kick-ass adept. Seriously, MT won't feel underpowered, and you won't overshadow the rest of the party. More importantly, you will keep the dual caster feel, with access to almost every spell in the game.
EDIT : i would not look at the SLAs trick to enter MT early. It's fine as it is. Plus in the end, if you go for lev 20, the early levels spent on cleric and wizard will mean you will be lev 16 ish after MT, whereas someone who uses early entrance will be what, lev 13 and done with MT ? then its all the same single class, one or the other.
Thank you for all of the suggestions, everyone! I'm sorry it took me awhile to get back to you. I'll try to address the points made:
@All the "be some sort of cleric" folks - As much as I love the idea of clerics, I found that I tended to get bored with them really easily in AD&D if they were single class. Being a cleric and tailoring my domains to get certain arcane spells does have an appeal, but I think I'm probably going to stick with Oracle because:
(1) I love trying out new classes
(2) My husband (the gnome alchemist) and one of the players that's a longtime friend (the elven sorcerer) think the Oracle concept is so cool ("A divine sorcerer!? THAT'S AWESOME, I can't wait to see what you can do!") that they'd probably lynch me if I backed out now ;)
@Adamantine Dragon - Ahhh, but our DM is loathe to let people scrap characters unless they really, truly aren't having any fun with them. He's more than willing to work with us to try and find a solution if possible; new characters are a last resort in this case. Of course since we -did- traverse time/space/whatever to get here, I probably have a fair amount of RP leeway in essentially rebuilding my character if I wish to take it.
@Jellyfulfish - There's nothing *wrong* with MTs...I guess I'm just having trouble finding a happy medium between concepts that sound pretty cool and concepts that can actually -do- something worthwhile, especially as we level up. My husband avoids forums like this because he prefers to discover the strengths and weaknesses of his builds on his own, without being influenced by people who strongly prefer optimal/optimized builds.
So, my current status is Oracle (though I'm open to hearing convincing arguments for the cleric and/or witch that someone else suggested; witches sound cool for sure). If I stick with Oracle, I guess the next question is straight class or multi/dip (and if so, what class) and what Mystery? For Mystery, I'm leaning towards Heavens (entertaining Revelations and I don't hate the spells), Flame (would give me a decent way to blast if needed and focus my other spells on utility/healing), or Life (super healer since we don't have one, unless I've missed something with alchemists). I would -love- to do a Battle Oracle at some point, but I figured that between the ranger, rogue, summoner shenanigans and the alchemist hulking out on mutagens that a lot of melee/ranged combat is already covered.
At any rate, if anyone has any additional suggestions then I'm all ears! I also apologize for basically dismissing all of the advice given thus far, but I promise I do appreciate it just the same! Darn my indecisiveness :\
Yeah, a Heavens Oracle would be pretty cool. Or you could totally surprise everyone with a Battle Oracle, haha. But I like your concept of the Heavens.
I honestly would love the mystic theurge idea for you if you were starting at a higher level, AND if your GM pre-approved you joining a spellcasting guild, from the supplement Inner Sea Magic. Basically you pay 300 gp every so often (4x a year I think?) and make a few checks, and you get +1 caster level in one class, and +3 in another. And that comes with spell access. Also the trait magical knack gives +1 caster level too, so if you could have all of those things, Mystic Theurge could be pretty awesome for you. It's a LOT of book keeping though with all those spells..and it's pretty much your only class feature, so it can get boring.
the Witch is certainly a great class, but it's VERY easy to "break" and make a GM very annoyed with you. I'm talking about the Slumber hex and the Ice Tomb hex. Both of these tend to just break entire encounters.
Diving straight into Pathfinder with all of its attendant options can be really overwhelming coming from where you're coming from. A bit of indecisiveness is expected :) I truly think you'll be happy with an Oracle though. Depending on the sorcerer build, another blaster could be useful, so the Flame oracle wouldn't be out of place whatsoever. Just be aware that Fire is the most common resistance and immunity for creatures to have in Pathfinder (if you commit yourself to this route, a level of >>>> THIS <<<< is wholly appropriate to switch your elemental properties a few times a day. And any type of oracle is going to be a competent healer... Life Oracles from what I've heard absolutely win the "best healer in Pathfinder" competition, though. if your husband builds his alchemist with the Infusion discovery, he'll be able to pass out healing spells in advance to other people, so, yes, they sort of can heal.
Pathfinder really values single class over multiclass. You can make multiclassing work, but you have to have a plan :) Since you are new to the rules, aim for single class.
If you are bored with Clerics, how will Oracle be any better? Is it the lack of church/deity that is appealing? At the end of the day, the difference is limited casting ability (1: stunted spell access, 2: limited spell choice), but some tricks for the Oracle. or, full spell casting and some tricks for the cleric. *shrug*
When I did the same conversion, 2-3-3.5-PF I found more success (that is, pleased with how the character *felt*, not how powerful) if I looked at the character concept/background/personality and started from the ground up. (I think Addy Dragon said something like this already) For example, a Rogue/Fighter/Wizard became a Bard. Losing the familiar sucked, because she had a kick ass miniature lion, but hey, you win some, you lose some ;) Another example was a rogue/cleric/illusionist that simple became a Cleric (The mechanics on that one hurt a lot, as I went from being a rogue-caster to a pure caster with blargh skills!)
summarize with a list of cleric/mage options:
Bard
Witch
Cleric
Wizard
Oracle
Sorc
Other considerations
Loot? When I converted from 2d up, I found the characters had lots of utility items (Instant Fortress anyone?) but relatively poor weapons. (Of course, YMMV)
Stats? A 16 STR in 2d was nigh useless. Yeah, +1 Damage. In PF (et al) it is a high stat! (+3 to everything STR based!) If your group is ok with having uneven power in the party, it's all good. Otherwise, you may want to look into point buy systems. (I didn't like them at first, "Too inorganic! But the Dice don't lie! I rolled these for real for real!" but came to enjoy the simplicity and balancing effect of point-buy. again, YMMV)
In any event, Welcome to the best edition of (D&D) to date! Have fun :)
Many people suggested going with cleric and picking domains that give you the wizard spells that you want -- going with oracle and selecting a mystery that gives you wizard-like revelations is also good.
For your 1st level feat, you should consider Arcane Talent to give you access to a sorcerer/wizard cantrip.
You may also look into taking the Eldritch Heritage feat as your 3rd level feat. As a Half-Elf, you have a leg up on meeting the prerequisites (since you get Skill Focus as a bonus feat). The first level bloodline powers of most bloodlines give you additional chances for arcane blasting.
@Nuclearsunburn - Thanks for the vote of confidence! My husband also believes that I would enjoy myself better if I stuck to pure Oracle (or whatever pure class I decide on). The sorcerer is going pure blasting mode, which (I think) actually fits the volatile and temperamental nature of the character better than wizard did.
@FireberdGNOME - I think the appeal of the Oracle lies within the uniqueness (to myself) of a divine sorcerer in general and the mystery/revelation aspect. I'm also a fan of spontaneous casting over having to designate spells every single day; sure I can know more spells as a cleric/wizard but what good are they if I'm unsure of what would be useful for any given day? I may know less spells as an oracle/sorcerer but at least what I do know is always on hand unless I've already used all my spells for the day.
More specifically, the original background concept for the character in regards to class is that she exists as a conduit for magical energy that manifested in a divine calling to be a cleric as well as to study the arcane arts. She realized that devoting time and energy to both paths would be the longer haul compared to focusing on just one, but it was what she felt called to do. Based on her AD&D concept, I figured that Oracle or Witch would make the most sense in the Pathfinder setting. Sorcerer would also be appropriate, but as we've already got one and no real healing, I opted to pass on it.
Reasoning for oracle alone is what I listed in my initial post - a being that has a strong, natural affinity to magic suddenly pops into the Pathfinder universe and the deity/deities/being that serves as the source for whatever oracle mystery I would opt for takes notice and goes, "I don't know where you came from, but I could make use of you!" Boom, she's an oracle with no memory of her arcane studies as a wizard, though that natural inclination does manage to manifest itself periodically by way of mystery spells. The Heavens mystery could manifest itself because she was a worshiper of Selune on Faerun and that tie/attraction to the moon and the stars could grab the interest of the giver of that mystery. Taking the Life mystery would be explained in a similar way based on the character being a good-aligned, nurturing personality. I would RP the Fire mystery as a result of the events that caused the party to teleport to uh...Golarion? in the first place; ie the wizard/sorceress managed to almost kill everyone with an ill-timed Fireball spell that set of a chain reaction of bad juju. The Clouded Vision, Deaf, and Lame curses would also be explained in this manner (if I chose one of them) as an injury from this event that never heals. Her abilities may be different, but her base personality likely won't change too awful much; she'll definitely be shell-shocked at the transition and mourn the loss of connection to Selune.
Reasoning for the witch is a little more fast and loose, but the bulk of it would be that the witch is something different entirely - an amalgamation of arcane and divine magic, but with unique powers all her own from a source that may or may not be benevolent. This could offer some interesting roleplay opportunities if I wanted to shift my character's personality and alignment a bit (DM dependent). She came through the portal but she's not quite the same person anymore. She might become a little harder, a little darker in personality, as a result of such a dramatic change and upon the realization that she's been gifted powers and abilities that are similar to what she could once do...but at the same time are radically different in nature and source. She's still a conduit for magical energy alright, but the source of this is different and possibly malevolent and it makes her deeply uneasy.
Speaking from the OOC perspective, I've done enough reading on both classes and these boards to know that there are some serious ways to abuse/break mechanics with either class (HE oracle/Paragon Surge/Eldritch Whatever shenanigans and the aforementioned endless hex shenanigans with Cackle) so I would probably either not take the option, in the case of the oracle, or talk to the DM to set some sort of house rule limit on the cackle thing for a witch.
Once again, thanks for the advice/suggestions and encouragement; I'm definitely looking forward this :)
Friend of mine (I DMed) ran a life Oracle for a low level game. He was a half-orc actually, and did really well in both the heal-bot and battle mage idea. Granted he had better melee weapon options, but with those stats, a heavy mace, shield and decent armor you will do fine. If you want the healing aspect.