Greetings all,
My oldest son's girlfriend has expressed interest in joining the game I'm working on setting up for our family. However, she has never played a rpg before, so I don't want to overwhelm her with a difficult class. We quickly ascertained that she wants to be an elf. As I gave a brief overview of some of the different classes available, she was most interested in the wizard & the magus (the magus seems to be her fave so far).
I tend to play a rather rules-light type of game, more focused on action & roleplaying than the strictest adherance to the rules. My question for you all is, which one between wizard/magus would you suggest is the easiest class for a newbie to play, & why?
Thanks!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I disagree. A magus has far more options than a wizard, and has to worry about many more mechanics. Most decent players for instance can avoid having to cast defensively, worry about positional attacks of opportunity, etc. Not saying these things don't come into play with a wizard on occasion, but they are a part of nearly every magus combat.
On top of that the magus has to deal with spell recall, penalties to attack when using Spell Combat, which grants a bonus attack on touch spells. Plus they have to choose spells just like a wizard. They also suffer from more MAD than a wizard does.
A wizard has more spells, true. But spells is pretty much all they do. Once they get the hang of that, they're golden. The magus does two-weapon fighting melee and spells. It's like having to learn fighter and wizard at the same time. Plus unique mechanics for the magus on top of that.
I agree with the idea of playing the magus giving exposure to both magic & melee for a new player, to see what she likes. She's really into anime, & that's a major influence right now. If we go with elven magus, I'd be inclined to go with a dervish dancer-type that relies on dexterity more than strength (rapier or scimitar). The biggest issue is party balance - she's likely to be the party's primary arcane caster, & I'm worried the magus spell list is too limited. The rest of the group will be a dwarf rogue, a human/or halfling inquisitor, & a half-elf paladin... I was considering taking a halfling bard as a pure support type, but don't know if I want to bother...
If she's a wizard, she isn't likely to stand around with nothing to do too much b/c since she's an elf, she's going to be pulling out her bow @ times - we'll be starting at lvl 1, so the bow will help her conserve spells until she gets high enough lvls that it won't be needed. I am somewhat concerned about the sheer volume of spells available to work with, though.
Whatever choice she makes, it might be helpful to have someone else in the group that takes the time to learn the basics of the class. That person can help if she's not sure what to pick or if she forgets some of the options the class offers, such as...
My oldest son (her boyfriend) has played a magus before, so he'll be able to help her out as needed. He & I are the 2 most experienced gamers in the family.
Side note having nothing to do with mechanics, but Magus Spell Dancer is really fun to roleplay as.
Side note having nothing to do with mechanics, but Magus Spell Dancer is really fun to roleplay as.
Fun to roleplay is definitely an important consideration, especially for a newbie...
, which one between wizard/magus would you suggest is the easiest class for a newbie to play, & why?
For a person who has never played an RPG? Neither.
If she insists on caster, then Half-Elf Oracle(flame), dual cursed because Oracles are perhaps the easist of the full casters to play. Flame, because you can still blast away. Half-ElF because of Paragon Surge.
Has anyone tried to convince her to play a Sorcerer yet? This might be right up her alley. Once you choose your known spells at first level the issue of being overwhelmed by chapters of possible spells is reserved for leveling up, as opposed to the start of each in-game day.
The new player in my group rolled an Abberant Sorcerer, and quickly managed to be one of the most effective and fun members of the party (Fire breath is worth it's weight in platinum). He picked up on the rules exceedingly fast, and appreciated the simplicity of the sorcerer once you got it set up.
Also, as you know, the Sorcerer runs on pure unleaded charisma, nothing can be more SAD than that. I've been playing roleplaying games for seven years and can't be bothered to learn all the magus' little tropes and trappings, but that's just me. It may be a bit overwhelming for the lass.
If she's interested in casting and being efficient in melee a Draconic Disciple would be a good option, assuming she's rolling the Sorcerer.
I was trying to stay away from a Charisma-based character, since there's already a paladin & an Inquisitor in the group. Especially since she's not going to be the party face.
As far as an Oracle goes, Tark put it best in his Cleric's guide:
"Thou shalt honor the fighter and the wizard. Pay respects to the rogue ad shun the oracle for he is heretical scum." :D
I was trying to stay away from a Charisma-based character, since there's already a paladin & an Inquisitor in the group. Especially since she's not going to be the party face.
As far as an Oracle goes, Tark put it best in his Cleric's guide:
"Thou shalt honor the fighter and the wizard. Pay respects to the rogue ad shun the oracle for he is heretical scum." :D
And you'll be missing out on what a simple, yet powerful class can offer - especially to a new player.
You want to spice it up? Oracle(flame) Blackened. Lame. ...have at it.
If she has never played before either will be difficult.
If she insists on one of these then I'd go Wizard and I'd give her a rather short spell book to help her get started. I'd drop new spells in through the adventures, preferably through an NPC as a hook to get her role playing.
I've had a completely new player take on a wizard and it was a disaster because he wouldn't take any advice, saying, "I've always played caster on (computer or console) RPGs" which was often followed by things like, "what do you mean Magic Missile didn't kill all four goblins?” Or "why did Spark blow up the wagon?"
I actually don't have anything against the oracle, I just love that line.
The bigger issue is having another charisma-based character in the group. I'd really prefer the character to be intelligence-based. But thank you for the input, it is appreciated.
Pardon me, but I don't really see what your goal is with deterring a third charisma based character, are you planning on using a lot of Cha draining baddies?
Neither Wizard nor Magus are simple classes, she'll be drowning in options.
The bigger issue is having another charisma-based character in the group. I'd really prefer the character to be intelligence-based. But thank you for the input, it is appreciated.
But...but...it's her character...
My group & I have agreed to try an experiment - I'll be making all the pc's. I didn't say anything about it because whenever I mention it in a thread, the thread tends to get sidetracked into a debate/argument that I shouldn't make the characters. It's an idea I read about some time ago & thought it would be interesting to try - after talking to my family, we decided to run with it on a trial basis & see what happens.
I mentioned the oracle to her, but she seems much more interested in the magus.
Part of the idea with me making the pc's is to get everyone to try something new. For example, my wife usually plays either a support role or a ranged striker - I think she might have some fun with a melee-based character. My youngest son has gravitated towards arcane caster so far in his short roleplaying career, but I think he'll have a blast playing the sneaky rogue. My eldest is going to be the party face for the 1st time.
Each of them knows they're going to get something out of their comfort zone (but not TOO far out). The girlfriend, since she's never played before, I want to get comfortable with the game - she doesn't have a comfort zone yet, so I'm going to make a pc tailored more to her interests. She also has a more laid back personality, so advice from the rest of the party will probably be more appreciated than not.
Hence the original question. My son & I gave her a basic rundown on the classes, & those were the 2 she was most interested in. I don't want to discourage her right off by sterring her into something she didn't find interesting in the 1st place - we figure we'll let her play with the pc I make for a while, & then let her explore other options later as/if the interest comes.
Hopefully, that clears things up a bit.
Have you considered Sorcerer?
Their modular spell list and smaller selection is great for new players. It gives them a number of options without overloading them.
I tend to recommend Magus over Wizard for inexperienced players since the Magus is a Gish that is pretty easy to play and can whack things in melee that get too close.
|
Have you considered Sorcerer?
Their modular spell list and smaller selection is great for new players. It gives them a number of options without overloading them.
I would recommend this as an option as well, particularly for a group without a strong caster otherwise. A wildblooded (sage) sorcerer works quite well for an elf, and you could look at perhaps a fighter/eldritch knight multiclass later on if she wants to hit things more.
The Magus is in the Advanced Player's Guide. There's a reason for this. Generally all classes from the APG are more complicated than the ones in the CRB. Definitely nothing for beginners. There's a lot of calculation going on constantly with the Magus. Maybe Alchemist and Summoner are the hardest classes to understand, build and play but the Magus follows suit.
Both are not good classes for beginners. But the mechanical concept behind a wizard is easier to grasp than the one behind a Magus.
I don't see why people think Wizard would be hard to pick up. It has a very basic play style, stand away from enemies and throw spells. Learning when to save spells for later and when to use them up isn't worse than learning about flanking or AoO for melee.
I find it an easier class than the Fighter since you have a much easier time to fix mistakes. If you have picked a bad spell you can learn new ones from scrolls, fighters who pick the wrong feat have a harder time changing it and often have to plan levels ahead due to per-requisites.
I don't think either class is complicated to play, to build competently, for sure, but not to play. That being said, my vote is wizard. It is an iconic class and being the only arcane caster from what you mentioned as the party make up, she will shine.
Make use of simple spell cards or chits to keep her options clear. Limit her spell book to start with iconic and versatile spells she can use creatively. Make finding and learning a new spell a treasure. Give only 1 or 2 options with summoning spells and make them flavorful to the character history. Conjuration might be a good school. Make sure her stats let her make use of longsword and longbow proficiency or consider gifting her a staff of minor arcana (supposed to be for new wizards). Give her several knowledges so she is learning about the world through the game. Connect her to the setting through an academy that can be a resource to her and the group.
As an aside, I love family games. I am running The Dragon's Demand with my kids who are 15 and 7 playing a pair of summoners. Tons of fun.
I don't see why people think Wizard would be hard to pick up.
The reason for this is
d6HD, no wearable armor, unable to enter into melee effectively without fear of immediate negative hp if targeted, and generally having no defense unless that defense is specifically cast. Not to mention if they feat into wearing armor they have the problem of Arcane Spell Failure.The biggest reason for considering a Wizard to be hard to pick up is that their power comes almost entirely from magic, and once their non-cantrips are all used the wizard is about as dangerous as a commoner that can cast ranged touch spells that deal 1d3 damage which often is not enough to kill enemies yet start out needing to be within normal moving range--meaning the monster in question can just walk up and 1-hit-KO the wizard.
The Magus can wear light armor from the start, and can have at least a decent AC that lasts from the time he puts it on to the time he takes it off.
Yes, there are aspects of the magus that make him harder to play but for the first few levels you don't have to worry about these beyond "your power pool lets you do extra cool stuff! Awesome, eh? Make sure you use it whenever possible, but save one or two points for when you think you need it to defeat something big and strong."
It is partially the DM and more experienced players job to teach new players the game. The relevant aspects and nuances of the Magus should be learned by the DM and explained to the new player.
However, to avoid this entire situation just have the new player play a Cleric (Heavy armor feat + Tower Shield Feat), or a fighter (vanilla or 2-handed weapon fighter).
The super armor cleric because it makes it easier for them to survive, and the 2-handed fighter because it makes it so they can kill everything in one or two swings.
Instead of wizard and magus who can have overwhelming spellbooks, you might want to consider Sorcerer...
The Sage Bloodline (Wildblooded Arcane) swaps out charisma for intelligence for all spellcasting&bloodline related stuff.
The Empyreal Bloodline (Wildblooded Celestial) swaps charisma for wisdom, and actually gives a few (minor) healing gimmicks, which can be nice for roleplay.
Since sorcerers have a limited spell list and don't ready spells each morning I think this would be easier for a new player, who doesn't have to read through a dozen spells to ready each morning.
If she really wants a fighting/caster hybrid, you might want to suggest the Arcane Duelist (Bard Archetype)... that way you don't need to worry about the complex Spellcombat/Spellstrike/Arcane Pool/Knowledge Pool mechanics, which can bee a bit too much for a new player who's still struggling with spells in the first place.
Also Bard (like Sorcerers) have limited spells known and can use any, no preparing spells in the morning.
But Bards use charisma for spellcasting...
The biggest reason for considering a Wizard to be hard to pick up is that their power comes almost entirely from magic, and once their non-cantrips are all used the wizard is about as dangerous as a commoner that can cast ranged touch spells that deal 1d3 damage which often is not enough to kill enemies yet start out needing to be within normal moving range--meaning the monster in question can just walk up and 1-hit-KO the wizard.We might differ but I see that as one thing that makes it easier to pick up. You'll know that doing anything in battle without having a spell to back it up is dangerous. I agree that the possible penalty for a mistake such as allowing enemies to get close to you when you are unprotected have higher costs than most other classes but not enough to discourage anyone from playing one as their first character. Especially with experiences players at the table to help out.
We might differ but I see that as one thing that makes it easier to pick up. You'll know that doing anything in battle without having a spell to back it up is dangerous. I agree that the possible penalty for a mistake such as allowing enemies to get close to you when you are unprotected have higher costs than most other classes but not enough to discourage anyone from playing one as their first character. Especially with experiences players at the table to help out.
The main reason I discourage people to play Wizards and Sorcerers as their first characters is that it tends to play out like this:
First combat of the day: New wizard blows most, if not all, of his spells killing everything like a BOUS, and then gets to spend the rest of the session using his Xbow, Sling, or cantrips.The party rests.
Now he saves all of his spells for what he thinks will be a boss encounter, but there isn't a boss encounter by the time the party rests so he gets upset.
Now, here the guy who is playing the wizard either realizes how important it is for him to manage his spells, or he just blows them all asap.
It is easier for new players to grasp stuff like BAB, and having attacks that you can always do and hit for good damage. I remember I had a new player play a switch hit ranger who used a composite longbow and a greatsword. He LOVED playing that character because he was deadly at range, he was deadly in melee--more so, actually--and never had to worry about being useless since his range was pretty much everything he could see. It is almost always better for new players to play a class that gets spells later, but does not start with them immediately unless they have played an RPG that has this system where when you use all your good stuff you essentially are a glorified peasant.
It is also funnier when the new cleric uses Channel Energy to heal when the living enemies who were incapacitated are not dead, and everyone gains enough HP to wake up. XD XD XD XD This happened in my Second Darkness game just last seed.
i'd be inclined to suggest a bard, for exactly the same reason many have suggested a sorcerer- much smaller number of spells for her to learn. there are a number of different options for melee bards and (i think) the way they combine melee and magic is a bit simpler then a magus.
that said, if her bf is willing to hold her hand (figuratively) and help her play a class that he's already familiar with, you should be fine. black blade isn't a terrible option- it gives you a built in opportunity (starting at 3rd, i guess) to give her advice... like if she makes a poor tactical decision or seems to be forgetting a spell or ability that's perfect in some situation, her sword can telepathically remind her?
An unoptimized wiz . . . 10th level . . . base save . . . 22 . . . for . . . highest spell . . . magus [10th level] has a 17.. . . [N]ot a good place . . . monsters have a 50% chance . . . save . . . on . . . bad saves . . . 80%+ on good [saves].
This is why you encourage your Magi to go Melee heavy with a 1-handed weapon being wielded 2-handed either prior or after spellcombat in the full attack. Spells that do not require saves of the enemy tend to be either straight damage (shocking grasp) or defensive (Blur, displacement, mage armor, .etc [btw: I haven't checked if they actually get all of these spells . . . .]) so the character can get the most out of their abilities. The point of the Magus is to mix martial and arcane in such a way that the complement each other, not just so you can use one ~or~ the other in most situations. If you want to switch hit then play a sorcerous Dragon Disciple or something.
The magus, IMO, is just best suited as that character that gets the good defense from the arcane casters with the good offence of the martial combatants. Their arcane spells are more susceptible to being resisted for 1/2 damage or whatever SoS you are using--no idea WHY you would be using SoS if your resist DC is not ridiculous--so making the enemy have to roll miss chance for each attack or just not be able to effectively hit you EVER (greater invisibility works greater than invisibility!) is the name of the game for Magi who want to just beat on things.
There is also the point of if you want to nuke then use things that do not offer saves like Shocking Grasp, add the meta-magic feat to increase the number of dice by a maximum of 5 and it becomes decent. Get spell storing armor, spell storing weapon, cast it at the beginning of the round to hold, and then cast another when you use spell-combat and you have a very bad day for any non-electricty immune enemy.
The problem with new players is often that they need to re-read their spells all the time... this is ok for the first 2-3 small combats... but you will sorely regret giving her so much to read every time it's her turn after the 3rd gaming session.
A wizard or magus at level 1 with a decent int will have ~7-8 first-level spells, plus ALL cantrips...
A sorcerer/bard will have ~6-8 spells total (2-3 first level, and 4-5 cantrips).
Well, it sounds like she wants to play a magus so there is that. It's a thing to consider.
Also more or less no matter what you pick she's going to spend the first few games drowning in new terms anyway. Pathfinder is one of the heavier games after all.
Well, it sounds like she wants to play a magus so there is that. It's a thing to consider.
Also more or less no matter what you pick she's going to spend the first few games drowning in new terms anyway. Pathfinder is one of the heavier games after all.
Pretty much this. Also at level 1 a magus doesn't have that many options.
What, like 2-3 spells outside of cantrips and only 1 thing to with arcane pool - make weapon better. Spell combat is the only thing that's tricky.
I don't think either is a great choice for a someone who is complete newbie to any kind of rpg.
Even for decent players wizards tend to die fast and often have the wrong spells prepared.
Magi have a lot of additional things that no one else has to learn.
I would think a Sage sorcerer or ranger would be a better learning PC.
On the other hand...
If you are starting at first level, you and the other players are willing to help out, she is willing to take advice, and she doesn't get discouraged to easily; then either of them can probably work out ok.
I'd agree with the posters who have said that casters in general are not great choices for someone's first time playing. That said, I think that wizards, at least at low levels, are simpler to play than magi. Since there's no limit to the number of spells that a wizard can learn, there's not much penalty to finding out the hard way that she doesn't like the way a spell works after actually using it a couple of times.
I'd say an admixturer blaster wizard is probably the easiest way to get into playing a wizard.