Does a mithral version of originally medium armor count as light for bard / magus spell failure ignorance?

[Feuerrabe]

To repeat the question in the title:

Does a mithral version of originally medium armor count as light for bard / magus spell failure ignorance?

This question is somewhat specialized, because the vast majority of bards and magi won't be concerned. By the time they become proficient with a given armor category, they gain the ability to ignore the spell failure on them as well.

The particular case however is a Spell Dancer however, a Magus archetype for elves (in this particular case for a half-elf - I realize that the topic whether this is allowed is hotly debated, but the DM permitted it, so that's that)

A Spell Dancer does not gain any armor proficiency beyond light armors. She could wear an Elven Chain (a mithral chain mail), which would suit her thematically pretty well, if she spent a feat to acquire the armor proficiency and the armor would still count as light armor in all respects other than the required proficiency. So judging purely thematically I'd say "yes". But balance wise its somewhat tricky because Spell Dancers do gain a +2 supernatural insight bonus to armor on level seven, which increases to +4 on level 13.

The question is, whether in this case she may ignore the spell failure. Is a mithral version of a medium armor a medium armor or a light armor in this regard? Should I plan to spend a feat and look for elven chain, or go for adamantine chain shirts.

Rules concerned afaik:
Mithral http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/special-materials#TOC-Mithral
Magus Armor Proficiency http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus#TOC-Weapon-and-Armor-Pro ficiency
Spell Dancer Archetype (see "Dance of Avoidance") http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/elf/spell-dancer-magus-elf

[Jayder22]

copy and pasted from Mithral description:

Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations.

It doesn't say anything either way so without a faq ruling, I would believe "other limitations" could entail the limitation a magus/bard has for ignoring spell failure while only wearing light armors.

[Jayder22]

Also important to note because you mentioned elven chain

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/specific-magic-armor/elven- chain

"This extremely light chainmail is made of very fine mithral links. This armor is treated, in all ways, like light armor, including when determining proficiency."

Elven Chain doesn't even need the proficiency and it states specifically it is treated in all ways like light armor.

[Feuerrabe]

Ah, thanks. :) With that mentioning at least in my particular case, is fully and clearly answered. And I got the answer that I would have liked to hear.

[Snowleopard]

Yes a bard could wear a mithral breastplate without penalties to his spellcasting, provided that he does gain the medium armor proficiency!!!!
Because it still is a Medium armour with the features of a light armor.
And as a bard does not have medium armour training included standard you'd need to spend a feat in order to prevent penalties from non-proficient armor use.
Same goes for a ranger using mithral Full plate.

[Hzardus]

You still have to be proficient, but it does state that heavy is treated as medium, medium is treated as light. and that is after it states the one category light than normal for movement and other limitations.

That might be me just trying to find a loophole though...but you did bring up Elven chain

Regular chainmail is +2 dex -5 skill, 30% spell failure
With mithril its +4 dex, -2 skill and 20% spell failure

Elven chain is +4 dex -2 skill, 20% spell failure and it counts as light for proficiency.

So Mithril Chainmail is the same as elven chain...except it requires medium armor proficiency

so as long as your proficient with medium armor, you can wear the mithril and gain the benefits of it being like a light armor...thats according to what it says as read.

But I will faq for an official ruling.

Edited:Mithril chainmail thanks to Feuerrabe correcting my sleepy sight

[Feuerrabe]

If you do FAQ it, mention the special case of an elven chain and the fact that it does _NOT_ require a medium armor proficiency but in fact _IS_ a light armor...

EDIT: I know nothing about a material called "mithril"... that's what it was called in the Lord of the Rings. A mithral version of an armor has its armor check penalty increased by two points, the base is +2... so, the max dex bonus of a mithral chain mail makes it identical with an elven chain. So I am somewhat puzzled where you got the "+6" from... is there a special ruling for Mithral Chain Mails, other than Elven Chain?

[Seraphimpunk]

the mithral version is treated as the lighter version for all purposes, the only purpose that's called out in places where its not, is for proficiency. which is why the elven chain entry, and celestial armor entries specifically say it is light armor in terms of proficiency as well.

so bards love elven chain at low levels, and so should your spelldancer.

[Snowleopard]

Feuerrabe (Fire Raven) nice touch. The mithral chain refers to the chain shirt not the chainmail and therefor is allready light.

[Hzardus]

Elven chain states that it is chainmail, but takes a light armour proficiency

Mithral chainmail is the same stats as elven chain, but needs medium proficiency

[Seraphimpunk]

but mithral chain shirt ( often shortened to mithral chain and shouldn't be because its too ambiguous ), is a light armor with no armor check penalty and a +4 armor bonus, costing 1,100gp.

[lemeres]

Snowleopard wrote:

Yes a bard could wear a mithral breastplate without penalties to his spellcasting, provided that he does gain the medium armor proficiency!!!!

Because it still is a Medium armour with the features of a light armor.
And as a bard does not have medium armour training included standard you'd need to spend a feat in order to prevent penalties from non-proficient armor use.
Same goes for a ranger using mithral Full plate.

Well, unless the bard can get the ACP down to 0, which would only take the armor expert trait if you are talking about a mithral plate. With an ACP of 0, he takes a penalty of 0 to all of his attack rolls. With this trick, anyone can enjoy a breast plate (well, other than wizards, witches, sorcerers, and flurry based monks)

[Xaratherus]

I have always assumed that since Elven Chain[mail] specifically calls out that it is considered light armor for the purposes of proficiency, while mithral chain does not, that mithral does not automatically reduce the required proficiency.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Xaratherus wrote:

I have always assumed that since Elven Chain[mail] specifically calls out that it is considered light armor for the purposes of proficiency, while mithral chain does not, that mithral does not automatically reduce the required proficiency.

I'm pretty sure they just forgot to update elven chain for PF, since it existed verbatim in 3E and back in 3E, mithral didn't require you to be proficient with the original weight category to avoid nonproficiency penalties.

[spalding]

this is a common question, which they have addressed before, when i get home i will try to track it down.

[MrSin]

Personally, I always thought the other limitations thing included spell casting. You end up spending resources to wear it without a penalty anyway, so why not?

lemeres wrote:

Well, unless the bard can get the ACP down to 0, which would only take the armor expert trait if you are talking about a mithral plate. With an ACP of 0, he takes a penalty of 0 to all of his attack rolls. With this trick, anyone can enjoy a breast plate

I do that all the time personally, if only to avoid having to care about ACP existing.

[Dragonchess Player]

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Xaratherus wrote:

I have always assumed that since Elven Chain[mail] specifically calls out that it is considered light armor for the purposes of proficiency, while mithral chain does not, that mithral does not automatically reduce the required proficiency.

I'm pretty sure they just forgot to update elven chain for PF, since it existed verbatim in 3E and back in 3E, mithral didn't require you to be proficient with the original weight category to avoid nonproficiency penalties.

No, it's not an oversight (nor was it in 3.x, where there was no price difference between mithral chainmail and elven chain).

Regular mithral chainmail: +6 Armor, +4 Max. Dex, -2 Armor Check, 20% Arcane Spell Failure, 20 lbs., counts as light armor for everything except proficiency;150 gp (chainmail) + 4,000 gp (medium mithral armor) = market price of 4,150 gp.

Elven Chain: +6 Armor, +4 Max. Dex, -2 Armor Check, 20% Arcane Spell Failure, 20 lbs., counts as light armor for everything including proficiency; market price 5,150 gp.

The extra 1,000 gp for elven chain is to avoid the requirement for Medium Armor Proficiency.