I want to ban normal dice because one guy had incredibly high rolls during one session.
Sometimes, people get lucky. Either that, or both apps and 90% of the dice I see live are rigged.
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If a GM wants to insist that players roll physical dice at his table as he can't verify the randomness of dice apps, that's his prerogative.
On high rolls: my dice were 'hot' when I played my magus a few weeks ago; I was rolling crit after crit. The next week I GMed and couldn't roll above a 10 all night. They were the same (real) dice...
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I think that Dice apps are not random.
Neither are most actual physical dice.
Plus, you would essentially ban all on-line play. No, leave this to GM's to decide at table. If it's a well known app it's probably fine. If it's something obviously self-coded on an Android device, hmm...
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How do you petition Paizo to ban dice apps?
1. You just did.
2. It's probably not going to happen. As it stands, GMs have the option of not allowing them at their tables. I don't, in fact. (I ran for a Magus once who did not love that fact. I didn't care.) If you find yourself at a table where a player is using a dice app, petition the GM to require physical dice. If you find yourself at a table where a GM is using a dice app, petition the GM to use physical dice. If your petitions are not successful, you can either leave the table or not as you see fit.
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Personally if this ever comes up for me, i would probably allow a dice app for large damage (Fireball, lightning bold, high amounts of sneak attack).
This way i know it will be at least somewhat random but will actually speed up combat because we wont have to spend the time counting up the multitude of dice!
However i would want all other dice to be rolled with real physical dice.
Of course for online play I prefer people to use the built in dice roller, as everyone is using the same dice roller the issue becomes a moot point...
as the DM will gain the benefit of any non randomness as much as the players so it evens out.
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I agree that dice apps should not be allowed with the exception of online play. Even if the app is 100% legit there will always be doubts, and suspicion of its authenticity. I always roll my attack and saving throw dice in the middle of the table in full sight of everyone wether I am playing or gming. In this manner their is no question that it was just random bad/good luck that may have caused someone's death or saved my characters life. Also it builds the anticipation level as the dice slowly rolls to a stop...the groans and cheers that result really adds to the entertainment level for the whole group. The exception to this is for certain skill checks like trap spotter. Obviously these dice rolls are better made in secret so other players are not tempted to ask to make a search check, because the trap spotter rolled poorly.
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Well I don't know how to petition Paizo beyond posting on these boards.
When I GM in a home game, I politely ask my players not to use them. I offer a set of my own dice for them to use if they have forgotten to bring some dice.
When I GM a PFS game, I also politely ask my players not to use them. Also I offer a set of my own dice for them to use if they have forgotten to bring some dice. I have yet to see people be terribly upset at my request, some people may be surprised, but not terribly upset.
I explain, the reason I ban dice rolling apps at my table is because, we use computers so much in our lives, and we use them in the game for reference purposes, that this game is a chance for us to "un plug" and have some fun interpersonal experiences without the aid of computers. Rolling dice is part of that experience. When you roll your dice in the middle of the table, everyone else gets to take part in your successes, and your failures. It draws you in. while using a Dice App only serves to separate you from the table. There isn't any excitement when you roll on a dice app in my opinion.
Anyways that's what I do. I ban them period.
I hope this helps.
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If you're really that worried about them cheating, just do this:
Ask them to show you the app
Ask them to back out to the icon for the app on their phone/tablet/whatever
Ask them to then take you to the description of the app in the app store
If it's a loaded program, it will almost certainly say so. If it's custom or side-loaded or "something I made because I'm a programmer" tell them you're going to need them to use physical dice because you have no way of verifying the authenticity/randomness of the program.
If they show you one app and then start using another, you can just boot them.
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Our group's gunslinger started using a dice app on his phone after 13th because of the sheer volume of damage dice he was rolling each round + no longer missfiring (10 attacks with double barrel pistol, each with base 1d8 plus 3d6 from up close and deadly). We found that much better than him rolling out 10d8 + 30d6 every single round.
More often than not, we found his particular dice roller to be very much average.
I personally have no problem with them. If it was consistently rolling well above average I might consider asking it to be discarded for the remainder of the session, but certainly would not ban it from start.
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I've had a few dice app players at my table. The randomness of the dice app was very skewed.
They kept rolling crap.
So I'm going to keep on trusting players to be honest until proven otherwise.
Well said. And on a separate but related topic, it is for the continued promotion of that trust that I make all rolls, whether as player of GM, right out in the open in front of everyone.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I'm pretty certain that practically every dice app I've seen is a whole lot closer to true random rolling than a bag full of Chessex dice, and far easier to read than a bunch of Game Science dice.
The reason I don't like dice apps is the same reason that I don't like electronic character sheets; the player stops concentrating on the game, and starts concentrating on the screen & keyboard. I've found that it's a great deal harder to keep players engaged in what's happening at the table when they're playing with their electronic toys.
I'd be prepared to make an exception for one of our players, who has a hard time adding up numbers without using a calculator, but in general I much prefer the sound of physical dice hitting the table (and left there where I can see them until I say it's OK to pick them up again).
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I use an electronic character sheet (Hero Lab for iPad), though I do not use the die rolling functions that are part of it. But, I also bring a physical copy of the character sheet so if the GM says, "no, you can't use your iPad," then I still have my character.)
As for an online game, of course there has to be some electronic rolling utility. But, having never played one, is it one utility used by everyone (that is, do all the players and DMs use the same die rolling app/utility?) If so, then it's far less of an issue because if there is a problem, it affects everyone.
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Most dice apps are more random than physical dice. Take your favorite die and roll it 1000 times and then have the dice app roll 1000 times, I bet the ap with have a much more even spread of results. - unless they are advertized as unfair..
I use dice aps as a GM in home games if I don't want my PCs to know that they are being perceived, or for passive checks.
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Sorry, but I've used a dice app before at an in-person game, and it was a matter of convenience, especially where lots of maths are involved. I'm not cheating. If a GM doesn't want me to use it because cheaters exist, that's fine by me and I respect that, but trying to petition to outlaw it throughout PFS is pretty outrageous.
Work it out with your GM if it's an issue.
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I also don't allow dice apps at my table, but it's not because of 'cheating' or 'bias' or any of that negative/mathematical crap.
Rolling physical dice has been a part of this game for what, 40 years? It's a physical manifestation of chance and I think it is both addicting to physically roll dice and group building. YMMV
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At a convention a person sat down with a dice rolling application on their phone. I asked them not to use it, they were less than pleased and made some comments about how stupid my ruling was. I told them if they would rather not play at my table because of the ruling I would be happy to find them another table to sit at. I then handed them a dice set. We played and my dice rolled amazing for them.
Not everyone likes GM screens, computers, or initiative trackers but that doesn't mean we should ban them because we don't like them.
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I'm an old-skool gamer and personally, I dislike all electronic devices at my table-top gaming. However, like it or not, we're fully planted in the 21st century. Electronic gaming aids are only going to become more pervasive. People with dice rollers are just like the rest of us after we buy a new set of dice -- both want to "roll" their new shinys.
Before you ban them out of hand, try to consider why you are making that decision. If it is simply out of some Neanderthalian devotion to old-skool gaming, you might want to reconsider. If there is some question as to the "legality" of the dice roller, then sure, make a decision that is in the best interests of the table.
Remember, in a community gaming setting like PFS organized play, we want to be as inclusive as possible and players who embrace their electronic options are just as entitled to join the fun as the rest of us old farts. :-D
Explore! Report! Cooperate!
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Most dice apps are more random than physical dice. Take your favorite die and roll it 1000 times and then have the dice app roll 1000 times, I bet the ap with have a much more even spread of results. - unless they are advertized as unfair..
Some people are just lucky, or unlucky. With dice or apps.
Take me for example. I've been tracking my d20 rolls on this website with one of my characters.
My average to date, with the d20, is 7.89
My luck with real dice is no better.
I tend to obsess over my bad die rolls and have occasionally spent months tracking them across hundreds of rolls just to be sure I'm not over reacting. It is not my imagination.
I've known people who were the exact opposite and could roll no wrong, even when using my dice.
As for electronic dice rollers at a real table, I prefer real dice. They just feel better. I won't force that option on other people though. To each their own.
I don't like dice apps, but as a DM I use them anyway for various reasons like secret skill checks, and Wills saves versus illusion, etc.
If people are cheating, so be it. There are MANY ways people cheat at this game, especially Pathfinder Society. As long as it is not unduly impacting the fun of other player's at the table then I don't waste time trying to stop it.
It's not like we're playing for cash prizes. (Are we playing for cash prizes?)
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I generally don't allow them at my tables unless it's a high level caster who isn't particularly good at on the fly math and is slowing down the game every time they throw a 10d6 fireball. My reasoning has very little to do with the randomness of the app ,though I suppose someone might create one with loaded "dice" and no one would be the wiser.
My beef is with how they're used at the table. People tend to pick up their device, push a button, and say "crit!" a lot. I didn't see the roll, no one else saw the roll, so there's no verification. While I don't go to this extreme, my old VC when he played, and especially when he ran, used his collection of giant dice with simple color schemes that one could read easily from across the table. No chance for cheating there!
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 4
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The only time I've personally used a dice application is when I either didn't have dice on me or the bad guy failed his save versus a high caster level disintegrate.
Developer
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Honestly it depends on what the app's random seed is. I have seen someone using a really basic Java script for rolling dice and, without "hacking" the app, being able to control (ALMOST) what they get by simply using a stopwatch and practicing pressing the button at the exact right time.
...That being said I've also met people who can manipulate what they roll on a d6. Never a d20 though.
THAT being said, has anyone ever allowed a dice deck? i.e. a guy brings in three decks of cards, each with three of each number and shuffles them between turns (brought in three decks incase he had to roll 3d20 in one turn; multiple cards to help shuffling). I've only seen it when table-space was an issue and the guy couldn't roll a die to save his life (i.e. he constantly 'threw" them).
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I allow people to bring online character sheets with them. Use your tablet to make your character and bring it. I'm a GM, I'm not going ot demand a paper sheet from you, and i know a DM who does that in his home game.
A dice-rolling app, however, is not okay. There are confirmed apps designed specifically to be gamed and allow you to have the best rolls possible. I've seen them happen. Physical dice are necessary, though I will make exceptions in the case of 50d8+10d6, where I really don't want to worry about math.
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I also don't like dice towers, but I haven't stopped anyone from using them. In my opinion, it's just not worth the hurt feelings implying a player is a cheater because they like to play with there toys. However, if it is unduly detracting from other peoples fun (i.e. because they're obviously cheating)I'll do something about it, because that's my job.
The way I see it, I'm there to facilitate everybody's fun. At the end of the day, if I have achieved that, then I don't care if somebody cheated.
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I also don't like dice towers, but I haven't stopped anyone from using them. In my opinion, it's just not worth the hurt feelings implying a player is a cheater because they like to play with there toys. However, if it is unduly detracting from other peoples fun (i.e. because they're obviously cheating)I'll do something about it, because that's my job.
The way I see it, I'm there to facilitate everybody's fun. At the end of the day, if I have achieved that, then I don't care if somebody cheated.
Will you flip a table?
The only proper response at that point is to show that table whose boss.
I also don't like dice towers, but I haven't stopped anyone from using them. In my opinion, it's just not worth the hurt feelings implying a player is a cheater because they like to play with there toys. However, if it is unduly detracting from other peoples fun (i.e. because they're obviously cheating)I'll do something about it, because that's my job.
The way I see it, I'm there to facilitate everybody's fun. At the end of the day, if I have achieved that, then I don't care if somebody cheated.
Will you flip a table?
The only proper response at that point is to show that table whose boss.
What do you mean?
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As a DM my rule is all rolls by a player must be visible to the players next to them.
Now having a programmer background, I would not allow a self-programmed dice-roller at the table, but one from an AppStore would be ok, but I would still keep an eye on it.
As far as I am concerned, I like rolling the dice, but I must admit, when you roll 16d6 fire damage vs the players, a dice roller does come in handy.
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At a con. I watched a player program his dice roller to give more twentys and remove the possibility of a 1.
I played with a girl that used a roller. She critted almost all of her attacks. The two times the DM asked to see, she already rolled the confirmation and the roll is gone with the crit is gone. The DM not wanting to cause an issue continued the game. Next week when I offered to buy her a pair of her own dice, but said she could nto use the dice app she left and never came back.
As a DM it is not my job to make sure your dice roller is legit. If you need dice I will lend or even give you a set.
I roll out in the open so every can see as a DM. I think it is a fun part of the game. I think dice apps are often rolled as a private thing and not part of the social aspect.
I love those tense parts in the game when everyone is watching the die rolls.
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As a DM my rule is all rolls by a player must be visible to the players next to them.
Now having a programmer background, I would not allow a self-programmed dice-roller at the table, but one from an AppStore would be ok, but I would still keep an eye on it.
As far as I am concerned, I like rolling the dice, but I must admit, when you roll 16d6 fire damage vs the players, a dice roller does come in handy.
Agreed, there's just something satisfying about the sound of a half pound of dice hitting the table and then watching the player sweat as you manually add up the damage. I've got nothing against dice apps, but I guess I'm just a traditionalist. I think they add to the drama.
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Apps are required for online play and it is really the GM's choice. If you want to get technical, then go back and read the rules on how to perform an attack. It instructs you to roll a 20 sided die, not push a button, so it is conceivable that the rules require dice. As a PFS GM, I only allow dice and the players roll them when it is their turn. The problem I had with the apps is that the player would pre-roll before his turn and then just say what he got when we got to him. Who knows how many times he rolled until he stopped with something he liked. I made him reroll everytime. I like the physical dice and most of the players like it too.
GM's choice, always. I can't imagine it being anything else.
As long as they're up front about not wanting dice roller apps at their table, I don't see an issue. That way there's no accusation of cheating and resultant hurt feelings because the opportunity never presents itself. Barring a physical disability preventing them from complying, nobody should ever go to a game and not be open to such a minor requirement as "I insist everyone uses physical dice". Or even the exact opposite, as long as the GM brought tablets for everyone ;)
Personally, I like my dice. I spend far too much time with dice-roller apps online so on the rare occasion I actually get to sit at a physical table I like to escape to an old-fashioned tabletop game :) However, if the DM requires me to use dice, an app, cardboard spinners, or draw from a deck of cards then I'm happy to do whatever.
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The program could roll differently when many rolls are asked for.
To be sure there is no tempering, it probably requires that a device send a “roll for player X” to the GM’s device. The GM needs to be sure that the program rolling on his device is not rolling differently for a particular person too, which usually means access to the sources.
That’s probably how some of the VTT works. Nothing prevents the closed source one for rolling differently for some paying customers.
Would such a complicated system needed for FtF PFSOP though?
You could also use dice that are weighted to give more of a chance at 20s. Or you could have a d20 with no 1s that look exactly like another dice that you have. If someone is going to cheat, they are going to cheat. The way you roll doesn't matter, it's the integrity of the person rolling them.
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You could also use dice that are weighted to give more of a chance at 20s. Or you could have a d20 with no 1s that look exactly like another dice that you have. If someone is going to cheat, they are going to cheat. The way you roll doesn't matter, it's the integrity of the person rolling them.The program could roll differently when many rolls are asked for.
To be sure there is no tempering, it probably requires that a device send a “roll for player X” to the GM’s device. The GM needs to be sure that the program rolling on his device is not rolling differently for a particular person too, which usually means access to the sources.
That’s probably how some of the VTT works. Nothing prevents the closed source one for rolling differently for some paying customers.
Would such a complicated system needed for FtF PFSOP though?
I disagree completely. The ease of cheating cause peopel to cheat more.
I also do not allow dice I can not read to be used. If people need to pick up the die and squint at it, they need other dice.
I do not inspect every die that comes my way, but I do not mind making it more difficult for players to cheat.