RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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| 45 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
So, I'll be the first to admit that I generally hate these threads. It's rare that I consider a player's choice to be so overpowered as to require intervention like what I am asking about here. However, this ability was brought up in a recent scenario that I ran, and I feel that it merits examination by the campaign staff. The ability is Confusion Bomb, an Alchemist discovery that allows the alchemist to affect those hit by bombs with the confusion spell.
The text is as follows:
The alchemist’s bombs twist the target’s perception of friend and foe. A creature that takes a direct hit from a confusion bomb takes damage from the bomb and is under the effect of a confusion spell for 1 round per caster level of the alchemist. Reduce the amount of normal damage dealt by the bomb by 2d6 (so a bomb that would normally deal 6d6+4 points of damage deals 4d6+4 points of damage instead).
Firstly, to my reading, the bomb would act as the confusion spell, and thereby grant a saving throw. However, unlike the other bombs which feature saving throws, none is listed in the text of the ability. According to the player at my table, a creature hit by a Confusion bomb directly is confused without a save. While I disagree with this interpretation, I also cannot disprove it.
In the event that the players' reading is correct, I would contend that Confusion Bomb meets the criteria for something that should be banned from the campaign.
A) It is so strong that no alchemist would avoid taking it unless said alchemist were intentionally choosing a less-powerful build. There are but a small subset of enemies in PFS that would not be affected by a confusion bomb, those being creatures which are immune to mind-affecting effects. Given the power of the Confused status and the minimal sacrifice to use this discovery, I feel that it meets this part of the criteria.
B) It takes features from other classes and does it far better than those classes can. Generally speaking, Confusion is a spell that is the province of bards, sorcerers and wizards. Alchemists can, however, cast it far more effectively - this particular alchemist got 21 (!) uses of it per day, with no saving throw. The alchemist merely had to make a ranged touch attack. Therefore, much like the vivisectionist alchemist, this steals a major class ability from another class.
C) It entirely takes the difficulty of practically any scenario. A level 8 alchemist could use confusion bombs to defeat practically any high CR creature, including a Balor, an Ancient Dragon, a Pit Fiend or a Linnorm Tarn. As I look at the level 11 module that I hope to run soonish, the Ruby Phoenix Tournament, I notice that there are literally no enemies contained within it that would be immune to such a bomb.
Therefore, for these reasons, I urge the campaign staff to take a good look at Confusion Bomb and either clarify it or ban it from PFS play. It's simply no fun to play a scenario when another player can literally shut down any encounter with a single effect that offers no save.
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First, confusion is not an automatic death sentence.
They have a 25% chance to act normally, and a 25% chance to attack the nearest creature (this could still be an enemy, and if he's a solo badguy, it will be the enemy).
I have an Alchemist / Cavalier, and I did not take this discovery. Not because I willfully took a lesser bomb, but because I didn't want it. I took a different discovery instead. You do realize that people build their characters based off other things than what is the most powerful choice right? I have yet to see an alchemist with this discovery.
Further, I would allow a saving throw.
Coming under the effect of a spell does not mean it automatically works.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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First, confusion is not an automatic death sentence.
They have a 25% chance to act normally, and a 25% chance to attack the nearest creature (this could still be an enemy, and if he's a solo badguy, it will be the enemy).
I have an Alchemist / Cavalier, and I did not take this discovery. Not because I willfully took a lesser bomb, but because I didn't want it. I took a different discovery instead. You do realize that people build their characters based off other things than what is the most powerful choice right? I have yet to see an alchemist with this discovery.
Further, I would allow a saving throw.
Coming under the effect of a spell does not mean it automatically works.
Giving an enemy a 50/50 shot at moving is practically a death sentence. It also lets the party select which of their number the enemy will be attacking, given the last line in Confusion about it attacking the person that attacked it.
Second, yes, I do realize that people do not always make the absolute best choice for their characters. I certainly am in the same camp - I always try to make my characters a little less than optimal because I like to let other players shine. But, these were the criteria which were previously laid out for the consideration of banning something.
Its "as per confusion"
confusion has a will save to negate
Alchemists abilities are dc 10+1/2 level +int mod.
Not as clear as an official FAQ would make it but good enough.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I don't think it's an issue.
Lots of times per day? Yeah, but each one is just one target, while confusion is an area. When you take that into account, the alchemist isn't getting any more mileage out of this than a sorcerer. Unless of course the alchemist has spent lots of feats on Extra Bombs (sounds like yours has, unless there's been a math error somewhere), in which case, hey, feats should matter.
No save? Sure, but it has plenty of drawbacks that the spell doesn't have:
• Need a separate action for each target, instead of hitting the whole encounter at once
• Takes penalties for firing into melee, cover, concealment, range penalties, etc (feats can mitigate some of that, but then we're back to the role of investment)
• Creatures who make their saves against the spell don't cause your nearby allies to take splash damage. Missed bombs do.
Sorry, this just doesn't look broken to me.
EDIT:
All kinds of ninja'd. Also, nice to see nosaveaphobia is alive and well. :/
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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BNW: That was my interpretation, but I was overruled by my VC. We agreed that it would be an interesting topic for discussion.
Jiggy: The problem is that PFS almost uniformly pits the PCs against a single enemy. I can think of only a handful of scenarios that puts the PCs against 3-5 equally-leveled opponents. Accordingly, the alchemist just needs to hit one enemy.
All of the stuff about firing into melee is valid, but that sort of thing is what alchemists do best. Hitting touch AC as an alchemist is an extremely simple prospect.
The damage to nearby PCs is generally irrelevant, as most alchemists take selective bomb.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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As an aside, elves are not immune to mind-affecting effects. The only regular enemies that are immune to mind-affecting effects are the undead, constructs and nonintelligent plants and animals. That is a fairly small subset of opponents.
Yes, there are ways for enemies to prepare for it - but most opponents in PFS do not.
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What VC is overruling you like that? I mean if you accept their ruling, that's fine.
But I know that when I ask folks to GM for me, I let them make their own calls unless they specifically ask my opinion.
If they get something egregiously wrong, I'll discuss it with them afterwards, but I'm not going to cut my GMs off at the knees to overruling them at the table.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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I probably misstated things. I wouldn't say overruled. He said that when he GMmed for this particular player had played for him before that he had thoroughly researched things and came to the conclusion that the player was right. He invited me to post here about it. It was in a discussion after the table was over, not while I was running the adventure.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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To make the comparison to confusion a little less apples-and-oranges, here's a more comparable ability:
Gift of Madness (Su): You tap into the unthinkable void between the stars and cause a single living creature within 30 feet to become confused for 1 round. A successful Will save negates the effect. This is a mind-affecting compulsion effect. At 7th level, the confusion lasts for a number of rounds equal to your oracle level. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
So if we compare an 8th-level alchemist and oracle, they can each target a single creature for a confusion effect several times per day, lasting a round per level.
The alchemist can do it more (by 5, unless he invests feats), but he's expending a primary class resource while the oracle's ability is self-contained (doesn't cost so much as a spell slot).
The alchemist can deal damage, but can also hurt allies if he misses.
Both rely on a single d20 roll: a touch attack for the alchemist, a save for the oracle.
The oracle will probably have a save in the neighborhood of DC 21-22, while the alchemist's ranged attack bonus is probably something like +10 against touch (depending on how much DEX he bought). That's good odds on both, except the alchemist still has to deal with firing into melee (unless he spends two feats) and cover (stuck with it) and concealment (stuck with it). The oracle doesn't care about any of those.
All in all, I don't think this bomb can be called overpowered, even without a save (which I contend it doesn't grant).
Probably ninja'd a bunch again. Oh well.
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You could also note that
Any confused creature who is attacked automatically attacks its attackers on its next turn, as long as it is still confused when its turn comes
and you did just hit him in the head with a bomb.
Probably not the intent, since it makes the bomb almost useless.
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I probably misstated things. I wouldn't say overruled. He said that when he GMmed for this particular player had played for him before that he had thoroughly researched things and came to the conclusion that the player was right. He invited me to post here about it. It was in a discussion after the table was over, not while I was running the adventure.
Ah, ok. No issues with that then.
But even if it offers no save, he has to hit, and only does fire damage. And he can only hit one creature at a time.
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You could also note that
Any confused creature who is attacked automatically attacks its attackers on its next turn, as long as it is still confused when its turn comes
and you did just hit him in the head with a bomb.
Probably not the intent, since it makes the bomb almost useless.
That is a good point.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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Jiggy: The difference is that a number of opponents are built with a very high will save to avoid such a situation. Very few opponents are built with such a high touch AC. More importantly, the other Alchemist discoveries which confer status effects require a save, and they are generally for less impressive effects like staggered.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Jiggy: The problem is that PFS almost uniformly pits the PCs against a single enemy. I can think of only a handful of scenarios that puts the PCs against 3-5 equally-leveled opponents. Accordingly, the alchemist just needs to hit one enemy.
At which point this discovery becomes even weaker, since "attacks nearest enemy" is no longer good for the PCs.
All of the stuff about firing into melee is valid, but that sort of thing is what alchemists do best. Hitting touch AC as an alchemist is an extremely simple prospect.
All the caster BBEGs I've fought who had displacement up would beg to disagree.
The damage to nearby PCs is generally irrelevant, as most alchemists take selective bomb.
Which does not apply on a miss. Boom.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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That is a good point.You could also note that
Any confused creature who is attacked automatically attacks its attackers on its next turn, as long as it is still confused when its turn comes
and you did just hit him in the head with a bomb.
Probably not the intent, since it makes the bomb almost useless.
That's an interesting approach, and if things aren't reworded, I will probably take that.
The target does get a save...the alchemist has to hit him. And worry about blur, smoke, cover, etc...
Thats like saying the peasant can save against the dc 30 fireball because hey, they might roll a 20! An alchemist that will miss on a 3 or less probably messed up somewhere.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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I ran into this at the GenCon special, which was the first time I had encountered it. I'll admit, it does need some clarification.
And this question has been raised before, and the concerns expressed in this thread are not unique.
As for me, I ruled at my table that, as per the spell it lists, the bomb required a save on the targeted creature's part. The alchemist at the table didn't have a problem with it. I failed the save as much as I succeeded, and in turn I didn't make the creatures that were hit auto-target the alchemist, as that would make the discovery silly.
We talked about it for all of two minutes then moved on with the game, and everyone had a great time.
If a developer FAQ or errata surfaces, I'll use that, in the meantime, I'll work it out on a table by table basis.
EDIT: First post with the new avatar. Thank you Mythic Adventures, now I have true seeing up all the time.
BNW: That was my interpretation, but I was overruled by my VC. We agreed that it would be an interesting topic for discussion.
What, like, at your table, while you were running?
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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BNW: That was my interpretation, but I was overruled by my VC. We agreed that it would be an interesting topic for discussion.What, like, at your table, while you were running?
No, in a discussion afterwards. I allowed it during the session because I didn't want to wait on a rules discussion.
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I would say since the ability does not call out for a save then they do not get one. Just like if the creature were to be directly hit from a concussive bomb they are deafened with no save. And the madness bomb has a diminishing return on the wisdom damage.
I think Jiggy hit the nail on the head as far as the difficulty of being able to hit a creature and the possibility of hitting your allies.
well it is a direct hit, and confusion is pretty much ended if your allies attack him.
Powerfull but not game breaking. I have character with much worse.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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And this question has been raised before, and the concerns expressed in this thread are not unique.
For those who didn't follow the links, the second link goes to the same thread as the first, specifically to a post from designer Sean K Reynolds who says he'll look into it. That post got a dozen FAQ flags, but it was marked as "answered in the FAQ", which the design team sometimes uses to clear from the queue something that functions as-printed and doesn't need changing.
That was two years ago, and the sky hasn't fallen yet; heck, I'd never even heard of these bombs until today, let alone seen anyone actually use them. (Everybody wants Fast Bombs at 8th.)
Based on it reading like there's no save, and SKR saying he'd look into and then dismissing it, I can't help but come to the conclusion that it really does function as written: you take a direct hit, you're confused.
And you all know better than to think that the bomb itself auto-triggers the "attack the attacker" clause; it should be self-evident that if using the bomb always had no other effect than to make the target attack the alchemist, it wouldn't even mention confusion.
First post with the new avatar.
I liked the white-haired pirate better. (That was you, right?)
Don't forget about this:
Any confused character who is attacked automatically attacks its attackers on its next turn, as long as it is still confused when its turn comes.
So against a solo opponent this doesn't do anything particularly useful unless you're not going to attack it.
Au contraire! It means that if you have your tankiest character delay to just before the enemy, you can guarantee that the enemy must attack the tank and not a better tactical choice.
When I saw the previous threads, I assumed the answered in FAQ (which I remembered as "Requires no response", maybe there are others) to mean it is written as intended.
I have a sorcerer that uses this spell and an alchemist with a lot of extra discoveries that doesn't. I didn't want it for my alchemist because a lot of the power of confusion comes from hitting a lot of people, hoping one hits another, and then the death spiral happens.
As previous posters have said, if they are hit in combat, they continue to attack that person and ignore the percentile table. So I don't see it as too bad for a single bomb if it doesn't carry the Will save.......However, throw in some fast bombs and I might be able to be convinced that it is starting to get over powered. Then again, mix fast bombs with several of the alchemist bombs and they start to look over powered.
EDIT: RE, I don't think a confused creature must commit to the most recent attacker, just one of the attackers.
Any confused character who is attacked automatically attacks its attackers on its next turn, as long as it is still confused when its turn comes.
One round confusion is game breaking? Considering this is at least a level 8 ability, I don't see the imbalance. Arcane casters have done much worse things from much earlier levels
1 round per caster level, so 8 rounds or what will probably be the rest of their life.
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well it is a direct hit, and confusion is pretty much ended if your allies attack him.
Unless he's a caster. How useful is a bard or wizard attacking the last person who attacked him? Are players supposed to fight tactically and use spells if they're under the effects of confusion, don't they just start meleeing each other? If so, why shouldn't NPCs do the same?
But in any case: "A creature that takes a direct hit from a confusion bomb takes damage from the bomb and is under the effect of a confusion spell for 1 round per caster level of the alchemist." That really doesn't sound like it grants a save, and is another exceptional reason to not have single BBEG combats.
Certainly when pcs have be confused they use spells or (shudder) archery if they have them. It only says they attack, not that they melee with those that attckmthem
The idea that needing to hit with a touch attack is as good as giving the enemy a save seems like a flimsy myth to me. Sure, the DM in a home game can spend all his prep time imagining interesting ways to make touch attacks miss, but more monsters have a decent chance to make a given saving throw than to be missed by touch attacks, especially since the Alchemist can make multiple touch attacks each round and only one needs to hit for the effect to get applied.
Allowing no save Confusion from these bombs seems about as balanced to me as allowing no save Confusion from the Confusion spell. I think that few people would be willing to argue the latter is balanced at all. A Sorcerer who casts Confusion can get it out once per round. An Alchemist with Fast Bombs can get out 5-8 Confusion Bombs in a round depending on level, Haste, etc. That allows the Alchemist to target as many foes as the Sorcerer would be likely to get into the AoE of the spell. Without a saving throw that practically ensures that anything which can be Confused will be.
Just because you might not see Confusion Bombs in play a lot doesn't mean that they're a weak option. I avoided them because they struck me as overpowered, and a player in one of my games did the same. I could imagine other players shying away from them as well. I wonder how PCs would feel if the DM started using no save Confusion with any frequency.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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The idea that needing to hit with a touch attack is as good as giving the enemy a save seems like a flimsy myth to me.
The idea that only targeting one enemy is as good as hitting everyone in a 15ft radius seems like a flimsy myth to me.
The idea that this becomes overpowered once the alchemist also has Fast Bombs (10th level) seems like a flimsy myth to me.The idea that even mentioning single-enemy fights is relevant when confusion does virtually nothing in such fights seems like a flimsy myth to me.
The idea that it's a fair comparison to give the alchemist 10th-level abilities, factor in range penalties and cover/concealment, and throw some buffs on him; then compare him to what a caster can do as a standard action from 200ft away without even using their highest-level spells, seems like a flimsy myth to me.
The idea that all those caster BBEGs I've faced with mirror image and displacement up would be more likely to fail a save than to take a direct hit through all their defenses seems like a flimsy myth to me.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Jiggy: The thing is, if confusion is active, you can easily control your risk. 30+AC Paladin can run in and attack, forcing the enemy to only attack said paladin, never hitting.
Yeah, we wouldn't want an 8th-level ability to encourage party synergy and teamwork. /sarcasm
Go read some other 8th-level abilities, like some domain powers for instance, and tell me that single-target confusion is overpowered.
Besides, the affected creature is only restricted in target, not in method. They can attack their attacker by their normal methods, whether that's stabbing, casting, swallowing, or whatever.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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Jiggy: We want to encourage teamwork, but this steamrolls every scenario that has been written, in my opinion.
As far as comparing it to domains:
Charm Domain: Quickened Charm Person. Nice, but not the same level.
Protection Domain: Sort of like a defensive bard song. Also nice, not game breaking.
Chaos Domain: Make your weapon Anarchic for a few rounds. Still not game breaking.
Air Domain: Resist Electricity 10. Yawn.
Destruction: This is a lot closer - all allies get half your cleric level in a to-hit bonus. Very nice...but it's still not the same level.
Death: Immune to negative channelers. More yawn.
Community: Allies use your saving throws, not theirs. Pretty good! Still not game breaking.
Artifice: Makes your weapon dancing. Not bad! Not breaking.
Are there any particular domains that I should be looking at to prove your point?
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Jiggy: We want to encourage teamwork, but this steamrolls every scenario that has been written, in my opinion.
No it doesn't. You're afraid it would, but you're mostly speaking from your original shock that you felt when you first saw the ability (backed up by theorycrafted partial circumstances that only examine one or two elements at a time), not from a thorough analysis of how it plays out with all factors considered (including resource costs, such as bombs per day, buffs spent, mutagens, and feats).
If you just run it as written, keep your cool and remember to apply all the surrounding rules (such as cover), remind yourself how much the PC invested (sounds like the one in your case took Extra Bombs repeatedly), and keep an eye on what everyone else is doing at the same level; then you'll discover that it's not overpowered at all. You just got startled, that's all. :)
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Further to that: what's the first thing that happens to a PC "under the effects of a confusion spell" - Will Save.
Usually a harmful spell allows a target to make a saving throw to avoid some or all of the effect. The saving throw entry in a spell description defines which type of saving throw the spell allows and describes how saving throws against the spell work.
Negates: The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw.
I'm curious to know how an honest reading of how the game treats the term "effect", especially in the passage above, could lead to the conclusion that the effect includes the save rather than simply being, you know, the effect.
Is it possible that Confusion Bomb was supposed to require a save and it got left out by accident? Definitely. But the argument that "under the effect of a confusion spell" would itself prompt the save is simply a load of BS.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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Jiggy: No, I saw it steamroll an adventure that I was running, regardless of miss chances, cover bonuses, etc. Yes, there is some character investment, but it's the sort of investment that an alchemist would normally do otherwise, and his other bombs are also extremely effective.
I would also point you to Gibbering Mouther's ability. Gibbering Mouther confers the confused status, yet this acts as the confused spell.
Finally, I am quite disappointed that this has been moved, as the question of banning it is a PFS-specific question. If this ability is not errata'd, FAQ'd or clarified, I'll start a new discussion with only the banning issue.