Venture-Captain, Washington—Spokane
|
Page 35 in the Guide under Step 3 of Filling Out a Chronicle Sheet is where the experience award for three encounters reference is located if you need to find it again.
Prestige is how Artoo stated and has a post from John Compton for reference.
Hope this helps if you need to find the information in the future.
|
What if the absence of the player now drastically affects the subtier? I had a 1-5 game last night with 6 players, APL was 3 so they had to play subtier 4-5. The encounters were significantly tougher, and once the lvl 4 player left, we were left with another lvl 4 and several 1s and 2s. They were getting their clocks cleaned without the extra firepower. I'd be interested in hearing suggestions on what to do...
What if the absence of the player now drastically affects the subtier? I had a 1-5 game last night with 6 players, APL was 3 so they had to play subtier 4-5. The encounters were significantly tougher, and once the lvl 4 player left, we were left with another lvl 4 and several 1s and 2s. They were getting their clocks cleaned without the extra firepower. I'd be interested in hearing suggestions on what to do...
Interesting question - you can't really change the later encounters halfway through because you'll have different treasure values for the different tiers.
That's a tough situation. I would probably continue using the Subtier 4-5 encounters but use less-than-optimal tactics for the enemies. It's not a great solution, but it seems like the best choice.
|
What if the absence of the player now drastically affects the subtier? I had a 1-5 game last night with 6 players, APL was 3 so they had to play subtier 4-5. The encounters were significantly tougher, and once the lvl 4 player left, we were left with another lvl 4 and several 1s and 2s. They were getting their clocks cleaned without the extra firepower. I'd be interested in hearing suggestions on what to do...Interesting question - you can't really change the later encounters halfway through because you'll have different treasure values for the different tiers.
That's a tough situation. I would probably continue using the Subtier 4-5 encounters but use less-than-optimal tactics for the enemies. It's not a great solution, but it seems like the best choice.
Where it makes that much difference to the APL I'd be tempted to ask the player to leave a copy of their sheet and run the character myself, or drop in an appropriate level pregen of a similar class. Not strictly rules legal, but fairer than having the rest of the party suffer because someone had to run home to take care of a pukey child (or whatever situation). Someone shouldn't have to feel guilty about tending to unexpected real life.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd handle it as follows:
1. Run the rest of the scenario at the (new) appropriate subtier.
2. Adjust the final gold rewards downward based on the rewards given listed at the lower subtier for the later encounters.
3. Cross out any items for the higher subtier that are found in later encounters. Leave the items found in the earlier encounters on the Chronicle.
XP and PP as normal.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If a player has to leave early (after 3 encounters) and it hampers the subtier for the rest of the players, I'd consider running the lower tier for the leftover players, and still awarding the high tier rewards. That's fair.
If the other player left before 3 encounters, I'd offer the remaining players the choice of staying on the subtier they were playing, or to change to their new APL's subtier. They get rewards based on whichever path they take from there.
|
|
I don't think the rules allow for adjusting the sub-tier in mid-game.
I would consider it the same as if the PC of the player that left had died. Would you adjust the sub-tier in that case?
As much as I agree with you Don, it seems like we would be hurting the other players if the person who left was the only reason they were playing the higher tier, and if that is the case, most players would play down as the gold is the same either way (out of tier gold).
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think Jon's suggestion is perfectly reasonable. Another thing I have seen GMs go at various cons is offer an 'Uncle' rule when the players are allowed to choose to play up or down.
Basically, if they want to start on the high tier, they can, and any time between encounters they can call 'Uncle' and choose to move down to the lower subtier. If they do this, though, they get the lower subtier benefits for the entire scenario. While that is not specifically allowed per the guide, it seems like a reasonable compromise to me, and seems like it would be fine to do in a case like this.
|
|
I don't think the rules allow for adjusting the sub-tier in mid-game.
I would consider it the same as if the PC of the player that left had died. Would you adjust the sub-tier in that case?
I don't think the rules consider this case.
If a PC dies, that is part of the game. The players had the chance to avoid this in the game. If a player is called away then that is an out-of-game situation. They should be handled differently.
I think Jon nailed it, although it's a fiddly solution to implement.
|
Resurrecting this threat because I ran into this recently.
A player had to leave early because, well, reasons. This raised multiple questions.
- She gets one XP if she finished three encounters, okay. But what exactly is considered an encounter? The group won two fights and avoided a (pretty tame) trap. The trap had a challenge rating, so - did she technically finish three encounters?
- Gold. The group got about half the gold in the scenario before she left and other other half after. So she only gets the gold they found while she was with them, right?
- PP. Now this is a pretty tough one for me personally - the PP in the adventure are not per se HARD to earn, but they only managed to do so after she was gone (primary and secondary success). So...she gets nothing?
- The group found a magic item along the way. Then she had to leave. Afterwards, the group gave the item away. Since she left before that happened - I assume she gets to keep the item?
Overall, this just seems like the worst possible outcome for her - she does gets one of three boons, no PP and still, she got one step closer to a level up.
Am I missing something or did I read this the right way?
Since this was her first PFS scenario (and her first P&P contact at all) I don't want to give her the "You get nothing!"-shtick, but also don't want to give her everything - do you think it would be okay to handwave the primary success condition?
The group fullfilled the primary condition immediatly after she was gone and it wasn't a difficult or dangerous thing to do (just read something in the very next room), so I'm inclined to at least give her that.
|
|
Resurrecting this threat because I ran into this recently.
A player had to leave early because, well, reasons. This raised multiple questions.
- She gets one XP if she finished three encounters, okay. But what exactly is considered an encounter? The group won two fights and avoided a (pretty tame) trap. The trap had a challenge rating, so - did she technically finish three encounters?
- Gold. The group got about half the gold in the scenario before she left and other other half after. So she only gets the gold they found while she was with them, right?
- PP. Now this is a pretty tough one for me personally - the PP in the adventure are not per se HARD to earn, but they only managed to do so after she was gone (primary and secondary success). So...she gets nothing?
- The group found a magic item along the way. Then she had to leave. Afterwards, the group gave the item away. Since she left before that happened - I assume she gets to keep the item?
Overall, this just seems like the worst possible outcome for her - she does gets one of three boons, no PP and still, she got one step closer to a level up.
Am I missing something or did I read this the right way?
Since this was her first PFS scenario (and her first P&P contact at all) I don't want to give her the "You get nothing!"-shtick, but also don't want to give her everything - do you think it would be okay to handwave the primary success condition?
The group fullfilled the primary condition immediatly after she was gone and it wasn't a difficult or dangerous thing to do (just read something in the very next room), so I'm inclined to at least give her that.
An encounter is = to combat (traps don't count as there could be 4 or 5 traps in a scenario)
She finished 2 encounters so would get her 1 xp point, did not complete the mission or secondary so would miss out on those PP.
She would get the gold that she had found up to that point, and on the chronicle you'd need to mark off any items that would have been found after she left as she wouldn't have access to those as she didn't "unlock" them so to speak.
I would say (given first scenario), since she was instrumental in getting the party to the primary success give her that one.
|
|
I beg to differ on the first part. A trap is set encounter, with an individual CR to overcome it. If they encountered the trap and disabled, set off, etc., they should get credit for the encounter. If they just avoided the area all together, then they never encountered the trap and would gain no rewards.
The rest of the statement I agree with.
|
|
I beg to differ on the first part. A trap is set encounter, with an individual CR to overcome it. If they encountered the trap and disabled, set off, etc., they should get credit for the encounter. If they just avoided the area all together, then they never encountered the trap and would gain no rewards.
The rest of the statement I agree with.
difference of opinion noted ... Those I learned from never alluded to a trap being an encounter and I've never heard others I've gamed with counting traps into encounters. Most traps are negligible and the few that aren't, to me still are aren't encounters.
I see traps as a hindrance in getting to encounter the bbeg for example
|
|
I generally count encounters by their section heading in the scenario itself. That tends to section things off fairly well. Combats will usually appear by themselves in a section (along with the options to talk through it and traps that might be present), so those are easy to track.
The more tricky ones occus when its a roleplay trail that needs following that may have you roleplaying without interuption for 1-2 hours straight all being in one section. Then you need to figure out how you are going to divide it down if someone leaves early.
I know this isnt necessarily what you are looking for, but the best answer is probably 'Expect Table Variation'. Every GM will rule things differently.
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
Based on what the guide says, and other threads on here, I have always understood it to be effectively the same as if the character died partway through, and then got raised at the end of the session.
A PC may receive XP only if he
survives the scenario or is raised from the dead by
the scenario’s conclusion and completed at least
three encounters over the course of the adventure.
So, treating each section with a CR as one encounter, then unless the trap they ran into was bundled with a monster, they get 1 XP
Determine how many Prestige Points the
character earned over the course of the scenario. A
character on the standard advancement track can earn
a maximum of 2 Prestige Points: 1 PP for each mission
completed.
This one gets a little Sketchy. Usually, if the group as a whole accomplished a PP, and the prestige point is written such as "they bring back object X" then I am going to give everyone the PP. Otherwise you run into "well, yeah I had to leave early, but bob over there was useless all game, so I contributed more than he did, why does he get PP and I don't."
However, there are some missions (the confirmation is a big one) where I could see some people getting the second PP point and some people not, because the second PP is based on individual actions.
Determine the Max Gold for the scenario based on
the PC’s advancement rate and the subtier played. Circle the
applicable value (F). ... If the PCs failed to earn any of
the rewards listed for an encounter, deduct the amount listed
for the applicable subtier from the value circled in area F.
Note the plural. Gold is explicitly reduced only by group failure
to encounter and overcome the obstacle. The character should get thefull gold for the scenario. (Or at least the same gold as everyone
else)
Cross out any treasure items the party didn’t find
in the scenario and mark any special boons the players
did or did not earn (U);
Likewise, he gets full access to the items on the sheet, the same as the rest of the group. But does not get any boons that depend on him having taken actions.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I feel like doing otherwise runs into some very tricky terrain. For example, when I ran one scenario, we had a party of 7 PC's with 2 animal companions. Due to the tight quarters, no more than 4 minis could be involved in most fights. Thus, what usually happened was that the thieves would check a door for traps, open it, and the melee fighters would rush in, and the clerics came in after ward to heal. Due to difficulty of terrain, some PCs did not participate in any encounters all night long (they were in the wrong place when some of the encounters started, and by the time they worked their way around the fight was over, other times by the time they got to the door, the room beyond was so crowded they couldn't get in to get in the fight.
Under the interpretation that you only get gold for the encounters you participate in, those PC's should have gone home with no gold, no PP.
(And if I ever run that adventure again I am limiting table size to 4. I'm just glad everyone at the table was a good sport.)
|
|
I feel like doing otherwise runs into some very tricky terrain. For example, when I ran one scenario, we had a party of 7 PC's with 2 animal companions. Due to the tight quarters, no more than 4 minis could be involved in most fights. Thus, what usually happened was that the thieves would check a door for traps, open it, and the melee fighters would rush in, and the clerics came in after ward to heal. Due to difficulty of terrain, some PCs did not participate in any encounters all night long (they were in the wrong place when some of the encounters started, and by the time they worked their way around the fight was over, other times by the time they got to the door, the room beyond was so crowded they couldn't get in to get in the fight.Under the interpretation that you only get gold for the encounters you participate in, those PC's should have gone home with no gold, no PP.
(And if I ever run that adventure again I am limiting table size to 4. I'm just glad everyone at the table was a good sport.)
You said a bunch of good stuff ... so not going to comment further other than to say "good stuff"
I did want to comment on your word problem ;)
what I probably would have done, IF I didn't have the map drawn out and I was able to adjust the map (not sure of the scenario) I might have drawn the room bigger to accommodate the larger party.. if it's not possible to re-draw the room them move the combat if you can ... does it absolutely have to happen in that small room? can it be that they are wandering? Is the sky going to fall if you change the battle location (again don't know the scenario).
To me, I would err on the side of the fact that there were circumstances out of their control with not being able to participate and give them the xp/pp for it ... that's me being all purple and fluffy like.
I know there have been a few scenarios I prepped that looking at the maps and the npcs I really wondered if the devs and cartographers were smoking different forms of some sort of pleasurable quasi-medicinal herb (long h sound on that).. but you make adjustments to accommodate as needed :)
|
|
The actions relevant for the two PP were fullfilled by the group as a whole. While some fullfilled more Secondary Success Conditions than others (as you said, because these were the ones dependand on individual actions), their actions as a group were sufficient to get the second PP.
While handling it the same way with a character dying (which raises a whole other question - do you scale down the encounters when you drop from 5 to 4 players? Do you handle it differently when the player leaves or the character dies? Might need another Thread for this...) makes sense to a degree, it makes it necessary for the GM to give the chronicle to the player after the adventure is complete - which is no problem if you know your players and with such a great thing as Email it's even possible if you don't...so I suppose your interpretation is a pretty good one.
I just thought that this also means that it's kinda good to die early and hope that the rest pulls through, since you get more money and PP per level. But on the other hand, raise dead should eat up this bonus money pretty fast, so no worries here.
Of course, it shouldn't be a situation that arises to often, so I'm just gonna rule as suggested by you, FLite - at least if I don't get to read any opposing, convincing arguments.
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
I did want to comment on your word problem ;)
what I probably would have done, IF I didn't have the map drawn out and I was able to adjust the map (not sure of the scenario) I might have drawn the room bigger to accommodate the larger party..
In this case, a lot of the challenge of the adventure is that there are tactical bottle necks. So the encounters are scaled such that the NPC's start in tactical control (around corners, behind doors, across sewers.)
Opening the map up so more people can get involved also makes the encounter a bit of a walk over. On the other hand, what is an interesting challenging bottle neck for 5 players, results in 4 people getting left out of the game when 9 PC/ACs all try to get in. :)
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There's a certain amount of GM discretion involved in what constitutes an "Encounter". You have combat, social, puzzle... all of these are encounters. Sometimes a scenario is a dungeon crawl with almost all combat encounters and maybe some puzzles. Other times it's largely social with a couple of combats. There can't be a hard and fast rule about this because of the game we're playing. As a GM, you'll just have to use your best judgement.
I feel like doing otherwise runs into some very tricky terrain. For example, when I ran one scenario, we had a party of 7 PC's with 2 animal companions. Due to the tight quarters, no more than 4 minis could be involved in most fights. Thus, what usually happened was that the thieves would check a door for traps, open it, and the melee fighters would rush in, and the clerics came in after ward to heal. Due to difficulty of terrain, some PCs did not participate in any encounters all night long (they were in the wrong place when some of the encounters started, and by the time they worked their way around the fight was over, other times by the time they got to the door, the room beyond was so crowded they couldn't get in to get in the fight.
Someone leaving the game early is a different case from some people restricted from directly participating based on the in-game environment. If they were present at the table, I count that as participation for the purposes of determining rewards.
"Don't be a jerk," applies to GMs as well as players. There's no reason to penalize players if they're trying to participate but can't because of in-game limitations. If you have a melee character and he can't get to the bad guys because they're flying or across a chasm, that's not the players fault. If the bad guys have barricaded themselves, leaving only a 5-foot access path and the 4 melee characters can't get in, or if they throw up an obscuring mist so the archer can't see them at all, you shouldn't penalize them.
However, if someone leaves the game early because they scheduled a movie date and it overlaps they scheduled slot? Yeah, they don't get full rewards. If they're bored and want to leave? No sympathy.
(Note: If someone has to leave early because of a medical, work, or family emergency then you can ignore insignificant little things like Chronicle sheets and just get with them sometime after the game as necessary and convenient. This is a game and real life trumps that.)
|
|
Related question:
If you have a 4-person table and 1 person had to leave early (and a pre-gen replacement is not an option)--can the remaining 3 players continue to try and finish the remaining encounters or is the session auto-ended?
I'm not sure how a pregen replacement wouldn't be an option unless it was a Seeker level module. Even then, those usually have pregens of appropriate level included toward the back.
Anyway, it takes a minimum of three to make a table. It depends on the players if they are comfortable with continuing a player down or not.