Mythic Pathfinder runs on this trope:
Which I'll be honest is probably one of my favorite tropes ever.
Although I'd say there's some sort of precedence for making Mythos-esque entities beyond even one of Golarion's big 20....Zon-Kuthon. Whatever Dou-Bral encountered, it was beyond being a mere god.
The only problem with that is the slippery slope I see.
Why would the player characters bother even fighting if failure is the only option?
Might as well kill everyone weaker to spare them the miserable end by alien entity and then commit suicide.
Which I'll be honest is probably one of my favorite tropes ever.Mythic Pathfinder runs on this trope:
There's just something insanely satisfying about punching Cthulhu in the face. I don't know how or why, but it doesn't matter!
Requesting a spoiler on the bottom post of last page... my group at least hasn't gotten that far in STAP yet, and I imagine there are others in the same boat.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I love it when a happy ending is earned instead of given. By contrast, I usually dislike a Downer Ending, especially if it's out of nowhere.
Darkness Induced Audience Apathy is something I am rather vulnerable to. I don't consider that a bad thing at all. Darker is not automatically better.
Ego trip. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing (Pacific Rim was all about humanity building giant robots to punch extraplanar monsters in the face), but it does tend to be ego-driven. It's the same reason people flaunt kill/death ratios in Call of Duty (they still do that, yes?), and it's why those annoying teenagers scream in your ear over Xbox Live when you're beating them at Halo (although in this case, it's because their ego balloon has been punctured). I personally prefer this one.There's just something insanely satisfying about punching Cthulhu in the face. I don't know how or why, but it doesn't matter!Which I'll be honest is probably one of my favorite tropes ever.Mythic Pathfinder runs on this trope:
I don't consider the two mutually exclusive. Punching out Cthulhu shouldn't be easy.
|
Why would the player characters bother even fighting if failure is the only option?Might as well kill everyone weaker to spare them the miserable end by alien entity and then commit suicide.
Because it's the right thing to do. Because even if you can't make a difference in the long run, you can at least hope to carve out some small victories in the here and now.
It's attitudes like yours that make me realize just how much more massively heroic the average Call of Cthulhu PC is than the average D&D/Pathfinder PC.
Don't get me wrong, Kthulhu. I can enjoy a setting where there is no winning. It's not the kind of setting I prefer, but I can have fun with it assuming it is done right. Two good examples of such are Demons' Souls and Dark Souls. The first doesn't exactly fit the bill, but the second certainly does. Another important thing for me is if the character knows whether the fight is pointless or not. It's a canon fact in Golarion (and IRL) that the world will end some day. How many people in Golarion know that? Also, how likely is it that the end comes while they are still alive? With all that said, some of my characters would keep fighting even if they know there's no chance of winning. Then again, they might just go to Pharasma's court and then join their deity after death, so even being killed doesn't sound so bad.
I love Lovecraft's books, but the more I hear about the gameplay of CoC the more I think I wouldn't enjoy it.
Cheers for heavy post editing!
Actually, James Jacobs has stated that while a mortal cannot beat a god, they can beat a demigod. In the same vein, a demigod could beat a god. However, there is still a major disadvantage for the weaker party. Tar-Baphon, one of the most powerful liches in all of Golarion, casually killed the demigoddess Arazni. He could not have done the same to the deity Aroden unless he became a demigod. That in mind, if the Player Characters became gods (unlikely), they could challenge Nyarlathotep and threats of his scale. Would it be wise to do so? Probably not, but what you can do isn't always what you should do.
Well, that's just the thing. It's doable if they build the rules set. Right now, characters max at APL 25, though with the sorts of Artifacts and ad hoc goodies that can come about in such a high-level campaign, they might even be able to hit APL 26 or 27 (in the same way that Xanderghul [subject to change when James actually stats him up] or Baba Yaga get CR boosts from special abilities above and beyond their Levels and Tiers). So with the current max, Demigods are within the reach of Immortal Tier 9+ characters but not Gods (theoretically CR 31+). So CR 28-30 Demigods would have a chance (no matter how small) to defeat full-blown deities.
That being said, I still hope it never comes to that. I like that the gods are intangible. If I want Pazuzu to fight Lamashtu and win, I don't need stats for Lamashtu. I'm not going to roll dice behind a screen and narrate the cage-match while my players watch. I'll just write it the way I want it to develop. I don't need stats to narrate.
As for having the players fight gods - if they want to do that, I have other games my group can play. I can see the reason for groups that are only familiar with Pathfinder/D&D wanting the only game they play to be able to accommodate a "Politics of the Gods" game-style, so I can respect the desire to go there. For me, personally, I have Scion, Exalted, Nobilis, and Aberrant that I can run for my group if we want a god-powered game, depending on the tone we feel like.
It also kind of makes sense to keep the main dieties unstattable (and hence unfightable). Lot's of rules/prestige classes/nations/etc reference specific gods, and having characters start ganking them at will in AP's would pose a problem. Killing Demigods...not so much.
Creative Director
|
Actually, James Jacobs has stated that while a mortal cannot beat a god, they can beat a demigod. In the same vein, a demigod could beat a god. However, there is still a major disadvantage for the weaker party. Tar-Baphon, one of the most powerful liches in all of Golarion, casually killed the demigoddess Arazni. He could not have done the same to the deity Aroden unless he became a demigod. That in mind, if the Player Characters became gods (unlikely), they could challenge Nyarlathotep and threats of his scale. Would it be wise to do so? Probably not, but what you can do isn't always what you should do.
There was nothing casual about Tar-Baphon killing Arazni, nor was Arazni nearly as powerful as, say, Cthulhu when she was slain by him. Remember, now that Mythic Adventures allows you to gain the ability to grant spells at 3rd tier... it's TECHNICALLY possible to be a 1st level character who grants spells. Arazni was much higher than 1st level when she went up against Tar-Baphon... but she was still quite away from Cthulhu level of power.
There's just something insanely satisfying about punching Cthulhu in the face. I don't know how or why, but it doesn't matter!
Old d20 cthulhu stat block gives him cr 36 and 882 hp, Ac 47, 6 tentacles @+56, 2 claws +50 and stamp +50, damage is 4d6 + 16 per tent, 2d8+8!claw and 4d6 +8 stamp plus if grapple causes 4d6 +12 dam. Dr 40/+4, fast healing 50 per round, sr 37, str42 plus spells etc
I remember wayyyyyyyy back when they had Cthulhu in the Deities and Demigods book.
Cthulhu may well have something in his stat block that makes it unkillable without doing something really out there, like successfully casting BiG C into a singularity.
Also, while Conan often had to flee from Eldritch Horrors, Elric's only real concern would be "can Stormbringer digest that?"
Edit: And considering the sort of things Elric DID take down, I think the answer would be "yes."
Cthulhu may well have something in his stat block that makes it unkillable without doing something really out there, like successfully casting BiG C into a singularity.
Also, while Conan often had to flee from Eldritch Horrors, Elric's only real concern would be "can Stormbringer digest that?"
Edit: And considering the sort of things Elric DID take down, I think the answer would be "yes."
Oh man. Elric. There's a series I haven't read in a long time, along with the Runestaff books.
The end of the Elric saga screwed with me. Did not see it coming at all.
The end of the Elric saga screwed with me. Did not see it coming at all.I love the latter part of Stormbringer, dark as it is (and I'm generally not a fan of depressing fantasy -- it's just that good.) The (MAJOR SPOILER)
** spoiler omitted ** is really well done.
Oh yeah, I loved it. I'm actually a big fan of depressing fantasy and downer endings as long as they're well done. Sadly it's a rarity to find a truly well constructed downer ending. Though I'll settle for a bittersweet ending too.
None of that's to say that I don't like happy endings. My main criteria is the quality of the writing and presentation.
Cthulhu may well have something in his stat block that makes it unkillable without doing something really out there, like successfully casting BiG C into a singularity.
Also, while Conan often had to flee from Eldritch Horrors, Elric's only real concern would be "can Stormbringer digest that?"
Edit: And considering the sort of things Elric DID take down, I think the answer would be "yes."
Yeah, Elric killed at least one Lord of Chaos (Checkalakh), and the Lords of Law and Chaos are basically the pantheon of that setting.
Admittedly that Lord of Chaos was weakened and imprisoned though, so probably "demigod" level power at best in that situation.
In light of what the Lords of Chaos were doing to the world just by being on it, and the level of heat Elric packs* he could well have been fighting full-bore gods. The Eternal Hero is serious business.
*
|
|
Cthulhu may well have something in his stat block that makes it unkillable without doing something really out there, like successfully casting BiG C into a singularity.
Not without precedence....
Cthulhu may well have something in his stat block that makes it unkillable without doing something really out there, like successfully casting BiG C into a singularity.Not without precedence....** spoiler omitted **
Close enough.
Reuniting her with her death is the complicated part.
Baba Yaga keeps her death bound to an object located in one of the many "backstage" demiplanes contained within the Hut. Accessing the "backstage" areas normally requires her permission. In the RoW board it's been pointed out that a carefully worded wish can also get you into that area.
Anyways, once you've finally located her death (while being an intruder in her Hut; odds are good she'll notice what you're doing and will not be pleased!) you then need to perform the correct actions to rebind it to Dear Grandmother. Which arguably involves her willingly accepting it back.
And if she didn't want it back, you may have limited time to track the Old Crone down and force battle before she rebinds her death into something else, and sticks that in an even more remote, inaccessible place.
Why am i picturing cthulhu with swallow hole and a madness rider effect?
Hey maybe there will be new sacred summons so my CG worshipper of Azathoth (CN) can standard action summons something beyond a chaos beast (which isn't normally allowed except for AP 64)
