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This will be my second PFS play next week. I played one session with a paladin last year but since then have moved cross country and settled in.
Anything strategic I should be aware of that is wizard specific? Tips? Warnings? I'm feeling a bit exposed due to the lack of armor and HP and don't want to be an instakill.
Also, I recall a PFS "cheat sheet" for things all plays should be aware of and responsible for (I.e. buying a CLW wand ASAP, dealing with swarms, etc). Anyone have a link to those resources?
Cheers!
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16
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Painlord posted a number of helpful references, which are linked to his page: http://paizo.com/people/Painlord
As far as survival goes, allow me to suggest that you ask yourself the following:
W.W.B.M.D. - What Would Batman Do?
Many people feel that the Batman's greatest superpower is his obsessive preparation. Pick up a variety of small items (both magical and mundane), so that no matter what happens, you'll always have a backup plan. If some big goon gets in your face, how will you get him off you?
Instead of a CLW wand ASAP, I would suggest a wand of infernal healing. As an arcane spell, you can cast it more reliably. Some smelling salts may also prove helpful.
Scrolls of protection from evil and comprehend languages occasionally come in handy. Oil of grease serves as a "poor man's freedom of movement"
Carry a weapon so that you can flank and aid your party's brutes when they swing. Most foes will prefer to attack the guy who slams them for 20 points of damage instead of the robe-clad nerd helping him.
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Hello Winter Born, welcome back to PFS!
Your first levels will definitely be the squishiest with only Mage Armor and maybe some dexterity bumping your ac to around 15-17. Best bet is to still stay in the back and use ranged spells/weapons appropriately. My Wizard at early levels had an Acid Dart domain spell from his Conjuration school of magic and it's what I relied on every round when I didn't have other spells.
Also I enjoy Painlord's Guide of what to Expect in PFS:
Good luck on your future games!
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1) With the new rebuild rules you can turn your paladin into a wizard, which will get you once adventure closer to second level and give you some cash
2) Tip: especially at that level damage is for your melee types. Use spells that enhance them or screw over your foes. 1d4+1 damage is not worth a spell slot.
3) You have access to the pathfinder libraries. By paying 1/2 the scribing cost in library fees you can put any legal spell into your spellbook. Mage armor for instance...
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This will be my second PFS play next week. I played one session with a paladin last year but since then have moved cross country and settled in.
Anything strategic I should be aware of that is wizard specific? Tips? Warnings? I'm feeling a bit exposed due to the lack of armor and HP and don't want to be an instakill.
Also, I recall a PFS "cheat sheet" for things all plays should be aware of and responsible for (I.e. buying a CLW wand ASAP, dealing with swarms, etc). Anyone have a link to those resources?
Cheers!
Don't give yourself a Con under 10 - I have a witch that is essentially CON and INT (figuring that AC is unlikely going to be good at higher levels) - with toughness and adding the favored class bonus to hit points - he adds 9 hit points every level (4 + 3 (con) + 1 toughness +1 class bonus) - and he was before Tribal Scars.
If you are paranoid and human you could start with both Tribal Scars and Toughness - and with a Con of 10 you would start with 15 hit points (I'd suggest more con but many would not)
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Quick Cost Cheat Sheet for Adding Spells:
Scribing Cost = 1/2 the Spell Cost
Level 1: 10 + 5 = 15
Level 2: 40 + 20 = 60
Level 3: 90 + 45 = 135
Level 4: 160 + 80 = 240
Level 5: 250 + 125 = 375
Level 6: 360 + 180 = 540
Level 7: 490 + 245 = 735
Level 8: 640 + 320 = 960
Level 9: 810 + 405 = 1215
If you meet fellow Wizards or other prepared spell casters, you can copy a spell from their book without the scribing cost. Since you begin with 3 spells + Int in your book, you most likely already have Mage Armor. And every level you gain 2 additional spells for free.
Technically learning new spells requires a day of study and a DC 15 + Spell level Spell craft check, but since there is no finite passage of time you can take 10 if your spellcraft is high enough.
Here's a helpful link about everything you need to know about your spellbook: Spell Book Guide
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Basically going Osirion Human Conjurer(teleportation) focusing on Int/Con/Dex, probably lowering my Str/Cha a bit, as I love the idea of an older physically weaker, cantankerous "Egyptian" wizard archetype.
Can I buy scrolls before first play session if I have the cash from creation? I think have a comprehend language would be such a smart plan (thank you).
Thanks so much, so far so awesome! I have until next Thursday so this should be a fun puzzle! I'm not hyper connected with ultimate optimization, but I'd like to be useful even if I want to take a couple flavorful if not perfect choices.
I keep bouncing back and forth between an 18 and 19 Int. I don't mind a couple slightly lowered scores in Str/Cha, and my first ability score bump would get me a 20 if I went that route.
If not I could keep a pretty safe:
10
14
14
18
10
10
With no negatives...hmmm.
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If you're going to use a lot of touch spells, make sure you have enough Dex to support that. Wizard is probably the only class I'd try shooting for a 20 at first level, because spells are it for you. Put the rest in Con, or Dex if you need it.
If you're tracking your character on paper, make sure to remember you get bonus spells for having a high intelligence (don't laugh, you'd be surprised).
Extend Spell should be your 5th level bonus feat, if you don't take it sooner. Extended buffs are just that awesome. Speaking of buffs, if your allies like you to cast buffs like Mage Armor, Enlarge Person, or the stat increasing spells, have them pony up for a few pearls of power so you only have to prepare them once.
Try to leave a spell slot open at each spell level. It only takes 15 minutes to prepare a spell in the middle of an adventure, and you can't always know for sure which spell you will desperately need. This goes less for Bonded Item wizards (why didn't you get a familiar?), but it's still good practice.
You know all those spells that you think "That's just too situational to waste a spell slot." Get a scroll. Get two scrolls, just in case. You should never have to prepare Endure Elements, or Comprehend Languages, or a dozen other spells that work just as well at minimum caster level. Also, keep in mind you can still use scrolls and wands of your opposition school spells at no penalty.
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Anything strategic I should be aware of that is wizard specific? Tips? Warnings? I'm feeling a bit exposed due to the lack of armor and HP and don't want to be an instakill.
Cheers!
Buy a scroll of Command Undead as soon as you can afford it. Nothing like completing a scenario with a special skeleton or zombie as your helper - mindless undead don't get a save and you have them for 3 days. Even at 1st level the caster level check for a 2nd level spell is easy to make.
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Buy a scroll of Command Undead as soon as you can afford it. Nothing like completing a scenario with a special skeleton or zombie as your helper - mindless undead don't get a save and you have them for 3 days. Even at 1st level the caster level check for a 2nd level spell is easy to make.
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Buy a scroll of Command Undead as soon as you can afford it. Nothing like completing a scenario with a special skeleton or zombie as your helper - mindless undead don't get a save and you have them for 3 days. Even at 1st level the caster level check for a 2nd level spell is easy to make.** spoiler omitted **
I've not had the pleasure but it is a danger sure - on the other hand I've had dino pets, and flaming skeleton pets, and all sorts of critters. I can think of an old LG Battle Interactive (Gran March) where we had a table of three bards and two rogues and a wizard, and we only survived because we captured and used the hill giant and troll skeletons.
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WHERE are you getting your price sheet for writing spells in your spell
book?Quote.. Scribing Cost = 1/2 the Spell Cost
Level 1: 10 + 5 = 15
Level 2: 40 + 20 = 60
Level 3: 90 + 45 = 135
Level 4: 160 + 80 = 240
Level 5: 250 + 125 = 375
Level 6: 360 + 180 = 540
Level 7: 490 + 245 = 735
Level 8: 640 + 320 = 960
Level 9: 810 + 405 = 1215from page 219 of the Core Rulebook , it says
" The cost of writing a new spell into a spellbook depends on the level
of the spell, as noted on the following table"...
level 0 5 gp level 5 250 gp
level 1 10 gp level 6 360 gp
level 2 40 gp level 7 490 gp
level 3 90 gp level 8 640 gp
level 4 160 gp level 9 810 gpit does not say anything else..
You have to pay the cost of the spell and the cost of scribing it from an NPC Wizard or Spellcaster. The Scribing Cost is 1/2 the price of the spell. It assumes a spellcaster will not lend you their book for free. If you read P. 219 closer you'll see the following:
In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of
copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually
equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see
Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique
spells might cost significantly more.
If you are copying from fellow PC's spellbook however you do not need to pay the scribing cost as they are willingly letting you copy, just the price of the spell.
Anyhoo, to the OP. My own Wizard is a Thassilonian Specialist (Boon) who is a Conjuration Specialist banning Illusion and Evocation from my spells completely. Roleplay wise I believe Evocation is a terrible magic and Conjuration is superior. My stats are Min/Maxed dropping his Str, Cha, and Wis to 7 allowing me to start with 20 Int, 16 Dex, and 14 Con. Primary tactics are to summon creatures and use pits/acid/spiked to control the battlefield. Fun little spell called Stumble Gap can force Medium creatures prone which is quite hilarious early levels.
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I feel your pain when it comes to low level wizards and most of the
attacks are "ranged touch attacks". Your wizard would need a very high
Dex and buffs and feats to be effective. You are looking at the -4
to hit because all those tanks have gotten into melee and you are firing
into it.
Support is the way to go.
A human wizard can start out with point blank and precise shot to mitigate some of the minus. However the other half of the issue, those tanks provide cover cannot be avoided without exposing the wizard to some direct charge action.
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WHERE are you getting your price sheet for writing spells in your spell
book?
He's extrapolating from the cost to purchase the spell from an NPC (which is allowed according to this FAQ entry). Do note that Mike had talked about removing the "in the rare instance" bit, but it doesn't appear to have happened yet.
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At low level, a wand of Magic Missile, if it is usable (not without UMD for Shinobikazuma's Thassilonian Specialist) or Infernal Healing (not without UMD for my boon Thassilonian Specialist, since mine is an evoker, with Conjuration as one of his banned schools) can be useful to have.
Remember that Magic Missile, even from a CL1 wand, does 1d4+1 points of damage, and won't miss, so it can force an enemy caster to make a concentration check during their summoning spell... And it is always helpful to nickel and dime an enemy to death, if you don't have anything better to cast.
And that wand of Infernal Healing (note that you'll need a copy of the book it is from at the table to use it), can be very nice out of combat healing. Guaranteed 10 hit points back? Yeah. It is a PFS legal version of Lesser Vigor, basically.
Note: Be very careful if you lower Strength, as there are times when it can kill you {c.f. Shadow, Greater Shadow, and all their ilk)
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Also Metamagic feats are your friends! With a Toppling Meta-Magic Missle you get a guaranteed hit and then make a CMB check to knock prone. At max level, 5 missles, 5 potential targets to prone.
To agree with Kinevon, my CL5 Magic Missle Wand fires 3 missles at a time, saved my party and myself more times than I remember at the lower levels.
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According to PFS rules and FAQ you cannot buy a wand with Metamagic feats.
FAQ: Can I buy a magic item or spellcasting services with a metamagic feat applied, such as a scroll of maximized fireball, a wand of empowered shocking grasp, or employ the services of a wizard to cast extended mass bull's strength?
Generally, no. Magic items or spellcasting services must be purchased as listed in the Core Rulebook, including wands and scrolls. You may not apply metamagic feats when purchasing magic items or spellcasting services. The only exception is when the item or service is specifically listed as a reward on a Chronicle sheet. End FAQ.
The original comment was more or so for his prepared spells of the day, one Magic Missle memorized with the Toppling Feat applied when he is higher level.
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Are you set on being a human? You can have stats like this with an elf.
Str 10
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 20
Wis 10
Cha 7
Having an int of 20 gives you 2 first spells from stat bonus, 18 int you get 1 first from bonus. Not sure if this matters to you or not.
Also if you take spell focus evocation and spell specialization magic missile you get 2 magic missiles at first level per casting.
At 5th level you can take the discovery called fast study which means you only need 1 min to fill a spell slot you left open.
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Just remember you can often buy utility spell scrolls (comprehend languages, knock, ect.) often no need to use precious combat spell slots on that stuff. Also remember you get tons of trained skills and bonus skill points for your Int. I would put at least one skill point in every trained skill to get your plus 3 to each before going too crazy on one specific skill.
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A few other stupid wizard tricks.
-1 point in every knowledge skill. Some of the odder knowledge skills will come up in PFS scenarios. For 1 point you get
The ability to make the check at all
A +4 to the skill (1 rank +3 trained)
The ability to use your massive int.
1 rank in a knowledge you already have is only a 1/20 chance of making it. 1 rank in a knowledge skill you don't have improves the chance from 0% to around 50%. (1 rank +3 trained +4 int +2 chronicle vs a dc 15-25))
Once you have your choice of inter-dimensional storage, consider grabbing pathfinder chronicles (they're in the ISWG, dunno if they've been printed elsewhere). They're a masterwork item for knowledge skills. Not very useful for identifying monsters mid fight because they take a little while to use, but rather a rather handy +2 bonus when it comes up.
I'll second the idea for utility scrolls. Comprehend language,knock, spiderclimb, daylight (move out of darkness, cast) for spells you don't always cast but reaaaaly wish you had when they come up.
Pearls of power: get any spell you want back. When you cast the spell again its at your caster level, MUCH better than a wand for things where caster level matters. PFS scenarios are VERY good at making sure you get 3-5 encounters in between rests, so you need the staying power. Speaking of which...
Wand of infernal healing: also from the ISWG. Gives you fast healing 1 for 10 rounds, but is seeped in eeeevil. A cheap way to heal yourself and the party. Always start a fight at full hit points. ALWAYS
Flaming sphere, summoned monsters and things that let you do something every round. At low levels there are more combat rounds than you have spellslots. Spells like this can give you something to do so you're not waiting 15 minutes for your turn only to say "pass" .
The best armor class you can have is not being where the person can hit you. Expeditious retreat, spider climb, fly, can all make you AC infinity because something can't reach you.
Traits: In PFS you get two traits. Traits are awesome. One thing to consider, since you have a lot of skillpoints, is a skill not normally associated with wizards.
-Acrobatics: What concentration check? I'm cartwheeling accross the room THEN casting
-Disable device: Traps don't always come up but its nice to have someone that can disarm them when they do. Not every random group will have a rogue.
-Perception: Most used skill in the game.
-Use magic device. There's a new trait in the PFS primer that lets you use your int in place of your cha for one cha based skill. Being able to use any magic item you want, or find in the adventure can be pretty handy
another note in that trait, PFS scenarios can involve a lot of talking. Rarely no one in the group can do that IME, but it does happen. If you take that trait you could apply it to diplomacy and use your sesquipedalian loquaciousness to chat with the common people and take up the face role when needed.
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Venture-Captain, Washington—Spokane
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Haven't added much spells to my wizard -- where does this come from?
3) You have access to the pathfinder libraries. By paying 1/2 the scribing cost in library fees you can put any legal spell into your spellbook. Mage armor for instance...
I'm curious about that one myself.
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As a wizard, be smarter than the rest of your party. Live up to the 18 - 20 INT.
CON is better than DEX is better than AC. Spending money on Bracers of Armor + 1 will make you regret it. A Wizard's AC almost invariably is lower than that of a fighter or armor wearer, so you have to do what you can to stay out of the combats.
My wizard has an AC of 10 and is about to hit 11th level. Most people can't believe it when I tell them that, but why would I spend a few thousand gold on making myself harder to be hit when I just don't get hit in the first place. Magic items aren't cheap and spending in unnecessary areas will bite you in the rear sooner or later.
Mystic Lemur has it exactly right. Just make it a pain in the butt to get to you and you wont be targeted. If you have a decent CON when they do come after you,you can simply immolate them for being so dumb as to approach after you soak a hit or two.
Also: Jack up your INT as high as you can and follow up with spell focus feats in your favorite schools. Your effects will live and die on your Save DC, and unless you want to be a Bard-like buff bot, save DC's will be big for you.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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I'm curious about that one myself.Haven't added much spells to my wizard -- where does this come from?
3) You have access to the pathfinder libraries. By paying 1/2 the scribing cost in library fees you can put any legal spell into your spellbook. Mage armor for instance...
The last paragraph of this FAQ.
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My wizard has an AC of 10 and is about to hit 11th level. Most people can't believe it when I tell them that, but why would I spend a few thousand gold on making myself harder to be hit when I just don't get hit in the first place. Magic items aren't cheap and spending in unnecessary areas will bite you in the rear sooner or later.
Totally agree. My level 8 wizard has 15 dex, but the only reason is for initiative (and it's odd so when he hits level 10, he can put his transmuter bonus in it for more init). He uses mage armor to get 16 AC, but beyond that there's no reason in trying. He usually gets hit anyway, but a level 1 slot is generally worth it at that level.
My level 15 life oracle has 14 AC, and he does just fine.
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My wizard has an AC of 10 and is about to hit 11th level. Most people can't believe it when I tell them that, but why would I spend a few thousand gold on making myself harder to be hit when I just don't get hit in the first place. Magic items aren't cheap and spending in unnecessary areas will bite you in the rear sooner or later.Totally agree. My level 8 wizard has 15 dex, but the only reason is for initiative (and it's odd so when he hits level 10, he can put his transmuter bonus in it for more init). He uses mage armor to get 16 AC, but beyond that there's no reason in trying. He usually gets hit anyway, but a level 1 slot is generally worth it at that level.
My level 15 life oracle has 14 AC, and he does just fine.
Really?
My 11th level Admixture Wizard has a base 12 AC (Dex) and between spells and items can get up to a 25. Because when you walk into a room and hammer down two to five mooks in a single move (Battering Blast, Burning Arc, or such is her typical opening move). A lot of her AC comes from 'cheap' items like Ring of Prot +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Extended Mage Armor (or till recently her wand of Mage Armor) and a wand of Shield. For BIG fights (like King of the Stoval Stair), she might add Bullet Shield since she typically uses Overland Flight to keep mobile.
She doesn't get in close, but it does help to keep from becoming an arrow-riddled corpse after you kill/hurt half the mooks to give the fighters/tanks a shot at the leader.
As for things I think a wizard should get .. hmm..
-Spells. With the new scribing cost + 1/2 scribing cost ('library fee's) for spells, you can shop around for spells. Pick out the spells you want to work with. (I typically leave 1 to 2 spells/level open before the briefing occurs to 'customize' the scenario load out after I see what is coming) Note: This works REALLY well if you have the arcane bond.. 1/day you can cast any spell in your spell book.
-Know your spells. Sometimes a 'wimpy spell' might have an angle that helps you in a push. Like snowball being able to ignore SR. VERY helpful this season. Knowing which spells are full round spells makes it easier to avoid leaving yourself open for trouble. Note: Remember spells that target 'You' can also effect familiars. Faerie Dragon to Form of Dragon I (gold) makes for an interesting backup when you get mugged in a back alley.
-Feats. Metamagic is a POWERFUL tool for a wizard. Intensified Spell turns a 'mere' Burning Disarm into a 10d4 burning pile of hurt to the bad guy. Extended Communal Darkvision eliminates the need for torches for HOURS. Even more fun.. a few metamagic rods extend the spell fun a lot. Need to drop a bunch of mooks but don't want to kill. A merciful fireball (courtesy of a Merciful metamagic rod) can do a lot. Lipstich the BBEG from across the room, courtesy of a Reach Metamagic Rod (Lesser).
-Spread your planning/consider alternatives. As an evoker, I'm heavily build towards hammer things flat with various elemental/force effects. Rogues and other evaders are my bane. A few touch spells + Wand of Spectral hand introduces Frigid Touch, All manners of curses, shocking grasp and such.. from very far away. (Fun note.. Force Punch is a great way to set up a goon/BBEG for the melee guys.)
-Consider how you can help the others. Communal spells, buffing spells are GREAT things to up the rest of the party. Haste, Bull's Strength, and such.
-Consider how you can control the battle ground. Summons, Wall spells, Black Tentacles/Obsidian Flow, Stone Call, and such are all good at hurting/hindering the bad guys and controlling how they use the battle field.
-BE AWARE of your school abilities. Every school has something good about it, and if you use it right you can do a lot of things. My main character is an Admixture Wizard.. that means with any elemental evocation she can 'tune' it to what is needed for the foe at hand. Add in that as a tiefling she racial abilites that let her use Versatile Evocation 2 times a day more than a normal Admixture wizard. I know a few Diviner/Rogues with hellishly high init bonuses. Even a generalist has it's perks, the ability to reduce metamagic feat spell level costs is potent.
-Plan out your build. Both my wizards planned out ahead of time. My 11th Admixture Wizard was planned out to be flexible one way. She hits hard, and has surprisingly good buffing abilities. My Transmuter 5/Magaambyan Arcanist 2 has a LOT of buffing spells and some 'fill in roles'. (Entangle and CLWs is nice to have). Both characters were laid out roughly to 12th level.
Other things to consider.
-Look into Arcane discoveries and feats. My tiefling got Opposition school research (Necromancy) and suddenly spells like Lipstich, Ray of Enfeeblement, Touch of Idiocy and False Life come in much more helpful (having 80+ @ 11th level can be very very useful) My arcanist has Cypher Mage/Script..which helps with spells and reduces spellbook costs a bit.
-Metamagic. This cannot be repeated enough. Metamagic feats are the core of a wizard's bite in my opinion. Heighten Spell makes my Transmuter's debuffs nastier. Intensified/Empowered/Maximized spell gives a bigger bite. Things like Rime Spell and Toppling spell can mix damage and crowd control together. Be the source be a feat, metamagic rod or other option it can help a lot.
-Use your class abilities. School abilities are good, but don't forget things like Arcane bond or Familar. Nothing like having a familiar with Greater Invisibility fly into the area to deliver the touch needed pass on a big spell to the fighter/paladin/rogue. Or simply deliver the potion that they need.
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Welcome to PFS Winter Born!
Instead of a CLW wand ASAP, I would suggest a wand of infernal healing. As an arcane spell, you can cast it more reliably. Some smelling salts may also prove helpful.
Please remember to direct folks to the appropriate source if they hope to use it at the table, in this case you need a copy of the Inner Sea World Guide.
If you are paranoid and human you could start with both Tribal Scars and Toughness - and with a Con of 10 you would start with 15 hit points (I'd suggest more con but many would not)
Please remember to direct folks to the appropriate source if they hope to use it at the table, in this case People of the North.
And that wand of Infernal Healing (note that you'll need a copy of the book it is from at the table to use it), can be very nice out of combat healing. Guaranteed 10 hit points back? Yeah. It is a PFS legal version of Lesser Vigor, basically.
Thanks Kinevon for adding that. :)
Umm I was told that unless I found the scroll during the adventure, I had to purchase the scroll, and then pay to scribe it. No one has ever mentioned "Pathfinder Libraries" that contain EVERY spell known to man and that all I need do is Pay 1.5 times the cost to scribe spells. I am fairly sure that the rule means that if you encounter an NPC mage during an adventure that you can possibly copy his spells and the "fee" is 0.5 times the scribe cost. This should RARELY come up...hence the reason the paragraph starts with "In the rare instance....". Just because there are other wizards in the Pathfinder Society, do not assume that you have constant access to their "libraries". I can find no mention of this fairly significant resource in the campaign guide.
Wow. Is that how people are interpreting that FAQ entry? Because that last line should not have the words "In the rare instance of a wizard charging a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks" seeing as other than the two free spells I get each level, that will be the MAIN way that a wizard aquires spells. Seems fishy. But if that is the new rule, that is awesome!
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Scribing and copying scrolls:
Rather than a table, here's the formulas:
• Learn the spell from an NPC = 5(Spell Level^2)
• Copy the spell into a spellbook = 10(Spell Level^2)Around level 8 or so you should be able to purchase a Blessed Book, which allows you to scribe 1,000 pages of spells in it for free.
Arcane Bonds:
You can save 50% off the cost of the first enchantment to your Arcane Bond if you qualify in every way but feats to enchant it yourself. This won't help you turn an arcane bonded ring into a Ring of Protection (requires Shield of Faith), but it will help with making it into a Ring of Feather Fall or Invisibility for half price.
Just keep in mind that the fame requirement for purchasing said item applies to the full price of the finished item. Also, that it is only the initial enchantment that gets the price reduction. So if you decide to turn your arcane bonded club into a +1 club, you will save 1,000 GP's. Enhancing it to +2 later will cost the full 6,000 GP difference.
I want to clarify/ask something here. unless PFS specifically calls it out, you don't need the spell to enchant an item in PF (you can increase the Spellcraft check by +5 to ignore any requirements)
I don't remember seeing that you needed the spell, just a sufficiently high spellcraft check
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Links, people. :P
Can an Arcane Bonded Item be upgraded?
Jiggy is correct that you get the discount on all enchantments, not just the first.
