Size increase and movement

[Ryan Symes]

Apologies if this is in the wrong place. First time posting.

I have a question for your rule givers....

If a creature is enlarged in size (say, adding the Giant template to a medium cat like a Leopard), does its speed increase, too?

I've checked, and EVERY cat-type quadruped I've found of large size has movement of 40ft. Leopards, due to being smaller at Medium, have 30ft.

So, basically, if the Leopard goes to Large size, with added stride length and strength, would its speed go up to the standard 40ft for large cats?

I would appreciate replies by tomorrow, as I am GM'ing Friday, and this might become relevant very fast.

Regards

[Claxon]

The template provides exactly what it says it does, without looking at the template to confirm. No, it doesn't grant a speed increase.

Edit:

Quote:

Giant Creature (+1)

Creatures with the giant template are larger and stronger than their normal-sized kin. This template cannot be applied to creatures that are Colossal.

Quick Rules: +2 to all rolls based on Str or Con, +2 hp/HD, –1 penalty on all rolls based on Dex.

Rebuild Rules: Size increase by one category; AC increase natural armor by +3; Attacks increase dice rolled by 1 step; Ability Scores +4 size bonus to Str and Con, –2 Dex.

No mention of speed increase, so it doesn't get one.

[Ryan Symes]

I am aware of what the book says (I'm not an idiot, I do research first).

What I wanted to know, from the DEVELOPERS/RULES TEAM, is if this is something to be considered, as a possible omission, that can be put in (Since it DOES make sense, especially for quadrupeds), or if this is one of those doesn't-make-sense-but-hardwired-in rules...

[Claxon]

You're not going to get a response from the developers or rule team, at least not before tomorrow. Probably not ever, unless you can get people to hit FAQ. Even then, it's not a frequently asked question and how it functions is clearly laid out and not misunderstood. I don't think that anyone would consider it an omission or oversight either.

What you really meant to ask is whether or not other people agree that a size increase should provide a movement bonus. I still think no.

All the same, you're the GM. You can make whatever changes you want to a monster. Those templates are just guidelines for what bonuses to give and how they adjust CR. If you want to give it +10 movement and give it the giant template I would still only increase the CR by 1.

In short, no, but you can do it anyway.

[Power Flower]

Yes, in the Bestiary larger creatures usually move faster than their smaller cousins, but no, upgrading a creature usually does not make it faster even if it increases in size. Well, apart from dragons aging, but that is not what you're after, I guess.

Spells like Enlarge Person, Animal Growth and Righteous Might all say explicitly that speed is unchanged.

The exeption is the transmutation[polymorph] school; as it says in the school description (CRB p. 211 & 212), "your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume".

Off the top of my head I can't think of a single non-polymorph size increase that improves speed. Doesn't mean it can't happen, but... It's been this way since 3.x, chances are good it's a feature, not a bug. But I will admit I have always found it counterintuitive and slightly annoying.

[John B. Steele]

It makes sense that if a Human takes up one square on the map and moves 5 hexes than if that same human was large that human takes up 4 hexes and it SHOULD move 4 times the distance of a medium human. Why would a medium size human move at running speed and penalize a Gargantuan size human to only move at tippy toe speed (both 25 feet)? Common sense is that the larger human would move a much greater distance as the mechanics of a human leg are the same regardless of the size.

[Azothath]

clearly chat:

John B. Steele wrote:

It makes sense that if a Human takes up one square on the map and moves 5 hexes than if that same human was large ...

scaling only goes so far in mechanics, engineering, and physics but it is a common sense approach. It is just a game with a descriptive version of (let us say) reality. Still, 10 yr necro? 'hexes'? 8^0

I believe 'gait' will model what you are looking for with bipedal humans as it is a human factor metric based off leg length etc.
Consider that a first level spell Expeditious Retreat adds 30ft speed (faster with Run) to your slow humanoids.

[Melkiador]

It “makes sense” that a size change would affect movement speed, but the specifics would be really complicated. In the end, we take the simple answer of “no change” and explain it as “magic”

[Azothath]

Game-wise it would complicate the interactions AND there are already spells that modify movement. A PF1 goal was simplicity(or accessibility) for a d20 game rather than accuracy (PF2 dumped reality entirely). Example: creature sizes got square to simplify reach.

[doc chaos]

Have you tried Microsized adventures by every man games? This book has rules for the large and small. I believe even for different size spell effects. Always thought certain spells should be bigger if they come from giants or larger monsters.

[Taja the Barbarian]

This is mainly a balance issue: Increasing your size is already a significant combat buff for martials (typically gaining reach and damage for an AC loss), and having it boost your speed as well would just make it an even stronger option...

Merry and Pippen just getting picked up by the Urak-hai at the end of Fellowship of the Ring was probably the most realistic portrayal I've seen of the importance of size, but it doesn't really make for a good game, so they sacrificed the 'realism' to make a 'generally better' game.

[Diego Rossi]

John B. Steele wrote:

It makes sense that if a Human takes up one square on the map and moves 5 hexes than if that same human was large that human takes up 4 hexes and it SHOULD move 4 times the distance of a medium human. Why would a medium size human move at running speed and penalize a Gargantuan size human to only move at tippy toe speed (both 25 feet)? Common sense is that the larger human would move a much greater distance as the mechanics of a human leg are the same regardless of the size.

Enlarge person gives a "measly" 2 points of strength, and the increase in size multiplies your carrying capacity by 2, while multiplying your size by 2 in all directions means that your weight and that of your equipment multiply by 8.

How is it that you don't go immediately to above your maximum load and aren't limited to moving 5'?
How is it that your bones and joints don't start breaking, and your ligaments don't start tearing up?

If you want to apply RL logic, go all the way; don't stop where it would be advantageous to your character.