Getting ready to start a new Pathfinder campaign. One thing that's always bugged me about the system (all the way back to 3.5 and earlier) is the lack of efficiency for more experienced spellcasters: martial classes, after a certain level, have a mechanic that reflects their superior skill via multiple attacks a round, on top of higher output damage- and effect-wise.
Spellcasters, however, only seem to receive higher output. There's nothing to really reflect their increased efficiency with spellcasting itself. I want to come up with a system that reflects that.
What I'm thinking of doing is implementing a system wherein a spellcaster at higher levels can cast more than one spell a round. To balance it somewhat, my thought is to say that the second spell in a round can be no higher than 1/3 the level of the previous spell cast. In the case of a cantrip or 1st level spell, a second cantrip or 1st level spell could be cast, and with a 2nd level spell, only a cantrip could be cast as the second spell that round (I can't figure out a way to keep the math consistent without removing the ability entirely if one chooses to cast a lower level spell that round, and it doesn't make sense to me that it takes so much effort to cast a lower-level spell that you couldn't cast a second, but could cast a higher-level spell and still be able to cast another).
I'd insist the save DC for the secondary spell be reduced by 2.
My thought is a spellcaster would have access to this "multi-attack spellcasting" at 10th level, with being able to cast a third spell in a round at 20th level.
I realize there's probably significant opportunities for cheese or abuse, and there may be a better system to implement than the one I have in mind, so thoughts/suggestions are welcomed. :)
Well there is quicken spell, and there are plenty of spells with a swift or immeditate action cast time. Other systems like the WoW/Warcraft
RPG had feats that allowed you to "chain" several spells together and cast them all at once.
You are likely to make spell casters very very potent without a great deal of further restriction (no cheese or abuse required to do so).
How would this interact with Quicken?
How would this interact with other metamagic not including Heighten?
How would it interact with Heighten?
Involve any change in their BAB progression ... since they are getting more "attacks" via spells?
Namely what are they going to give up beyond a fairly meager loss of DC and what seems a fairly minimal restriction to spells useable in their 2nd and later spells? At least as a player of a high level spellcaster the ledger seems to need a lot more to tip it toward balanced.
I'm also getting the feeling that this is fairly outside Advice and maybe better suited to Homebrew forums.
I was having a rough time figuring out how it would work with metamagic feats, Kayerloth, and I'm glad you brought it up. My initial thoughts are that the use of a metamagic feat are that it wouldn't affect things much, though I may consider an exception for a quickened spell. I don't recall, as I don't have the rules in front of me at the moment, but doesn't Quicken Spell take up a slot 3 levels higher? Consequently, if a 17th level Wizard were to cast a quickened 6th level spell, they'd be casting a "9th level spell", and would only be able under my system to follow it up with a 3rd level spell. In short, my system sort of steps outside the action-type system and takes into account solely the level of the spell(s) being cast.
Like I said, though, I'm aware creative players are likely to find ways to abuse it, which is why I'm seeking advice/feedback. :)
My first thought would be to combine offensive spells (SoS, blasting, whatever) and use the second spell slot for defensive spells, summons, buffs, or spells that just don't allow a save.
If the only downside is lower DC, then it's really just a free action each round.
In contrast, look at Quicken Spell - each spell casts at four levels higher than normal. The caster has to choose between getting high level spells out, or using his spell slots to prepare low level spells in order to get them cast. Even so, Quicken Spell is a very potent feat - combine it with the right spell and you can really cause havoc.
At higher levels, casters tend to use their high level spell slots while the lower ones get overlooked or saved for when the caster is running low on spells.
With your option the caster is no longer ignoring the lower spells - he can freely throw in nasty low level spells along with his primary spells...
Considering casters are currently considered very, very powerful in the game and they're balanced around only casting one spell per round, I have a hard time seeing how you could introduce this change without making casters significantly more potent than they already are.
I don't know if a new system is necessary. A wizard (or sorceress) with a famaliar can do 4 things a round at high levels.
Standard action: Dragon Breath lvl 4 (Acid)
Swift Action: Cold Ice Strike lvl 6 (Cold)
Move action: Move ball lightning cast previously onto enemy lvl 4 (Electricity)
Familiar Action: UMD wand of fireball or use previously cast Burning gaze
lvl 2(Fire)
There, you just blasted some poor mook with all 4 elements in one round for a 19th level max of 47d6 assorted elemental damage if your familiar is using the wand on just this combo.
Yeah, spellcasters don't need more than 1 spell per round. The get increasingly better and more powerful spells that they can cast which makes up for the fact that most spells are a standard action to cast. You already have quicken spell so you can get out two spells of any level provided you have a high enough spell slot or a rod. It's fine as is. Spellcasters don't need help being any stronger than they already are. As it is full progression casters break the game more than anyone else. Martial characters get to make multiple attacks in a round, and they may do more damage to a single character, but they will never be able to do anything remotely like a spell caster. You start letting wizards cast 3 fireballs a round and suddenly melee characters are just trying to avoid getting their butt's roasted.
No problem :) The system is, I believe, meant to be fiddled with. Everything from +2 circumstance bonuses to spell point systems, E6 rules, Archtypes/Prestige Classes, Mythic/Epic rules and what your proposing is a form of customizing (aka "fiddling"). Even PFS rules themselves are in a sense "variant".
Quicken is a 4 level increase. Personally for the purposes of iterative spells I'd use the total adjusted level somehow or it really is too easy to 'abuse' => Meteor Swarm+Maximized Chain Lightning+Empowered, Maximized, Intensified Fireball (plus Quicken something added in) just as one off the top example, a tremendous amount of damage to be going outbound. And go from there deciding whether items, class abilities etc. also worked that way (most importantly the various MM Rods). Or maybe change Quicken itself ... make it when used have the same or similar effect to Haste for melee attacks. And with respect to bfobar's post the caster could do all the above plus pretty much do all the extra stuff in his sample of activity (until something in this rule variant slows it down).
The only real downside for the wizard in the above scenario is he is going to burn through his memorized spells in a ridiculous hurry. In many ways it would be like 'going Nova' every single round. Even thinking about the buffing potential of such a spell caster goes well beyond scary.
Or is he using scrolls or items? How do you envision item use, particularly things like Wands, Staves, and Scrolls?
Put another way it puts a serious dent in perhaps the single most important factor limiting a high or very high level caster - Action Economy just went flying out the window on the Indy version of a Flying Carpet. Whatever system you come up with has to address that issue to leave the game anywhere near recognizable as D&D
And god help you if the caster has a time stop scroll.
Random thought:
Quote: Saving Throw Difficulty Class: A saving throw against your spell has a DC of 10 + the level of the spell + your bonus for the relevant ability (Intelligence for a wizard, Charisma for a bard, paladin, or sorcerer, or Wisdom for a cleric, druid, or ranger). A spell's level can vary depending on your class. Always use the spell level applicable to your class. Change "+ the level of the spell" to "+ the spell combat bonus" Now figure out the various casters progression for "spell combat bonus" (+1 per 2 levels for wizards, iterative increase every 6 levels?)
See what I mean by Homebrew, Advice is generally going to run in the "Are you crazy, there's a reason its called a 'God Wizard build' variety" :D
Edit: to change the normal rule to a quote and clean it up some.
Oh, HELL no. This is a terrible idea. Spellcasters already rule head and shoulders above the martial characters; this will only make the divide worse.
Spellcasters need nerfed, not boosted.
If you want to get more spells per round, How about looking at the 1001 spells pdf/book
http://paizo.com/products/btpy8qz9/discuss?1001-Spells
It has many spells that take only a swift action slot, which allow you to cast up to 2 spells in one round. interact nicely with quicken (doesn't overlap) and they have some nice effects as well.
I've always longed for a spellcaster iterative attack function - something which would allow you to cast, say, a 5th level spell and a 1st level spell as a full attack (cast) action. My experience is that very few casters ever dip into spells that are 4 or more spell levels below their highest level slot, and that is typically because of the action economy. Letting an extra 1st level spell slip out with a 5th level spell cleans out some of those spells and starts to open up doors to a combo spells type system. It'd probably take some tweaking to make everything work together (e.g., maybe all spells cast at -x caster level, where x is twice the level of the lowest level spell being cast), and it also has the disadvantage of giving even more toys to a very toy-rich class.
The alternative is to trick your DM into letting you cast 3.0 Haste instead of the non-broken versions of later editions...
If you are interested in "multiple spells weaved together", you should consider the words of power system, since it pretty much has a built in mechanic for that.
Words of power.
If nothing else, I'd recommend you copy their "X = 2*(X-2)=3*(X-3)" mechanic, where X is the spell level.
Kayerloth wrote: No problem :) The system is, I believe, meant to be fiddled with. Everything from +2 circumstance bonuses to spell point systems, E6 rules, Archtypes/Prestige Classes, Mythic/Epic rules and what your proposing is a form of customizing (aka "fiddling"). Even PFS rules themselves are in a sense "variant".
Quicken is a 4 level increase. Personally for the purposes of iterative spells I'd use the total adjusted level somehow or it really is too easy to 'abuse' => Meteor Swarm+Maximized Chain Lightning+Empowered, Maximized, Intensified Fireball (plus Quicken something added in) just as one off the top example, a tremendous amount of damage to be going outbound. And go from there deciding whether items, class abilities etc. also worked that way (most importantly the various MM Rods). Or maybe change Quicken itself ... make it when used have the same or similar effect to Haste for melee attacks. And with respect to bfobar's post the caster could do all the above plus pretty much do all the extra stuff in his sample of activity (until something in this rule variant slows it down).
The only real downside for the wizard in the above scenario is he is going to burn through his memorized spells in a ridiculous hurry. In many ways it would be like 'going Nova' every single round. Even thinking about the buffing potential of such a spell caster goes well beyond scary.
Or is he using scrolls or items? How do you envision item use, particularly things like Wands, Staves, and Scrolls?
Put another way it puts a serious dent in perhaps the single most important factor limiting a high or very high level caster - Action Economy just went flying out the window on the Indy version of a Flying Carpet. Whatever system you come up with has to address that issue to leave the game anywhere near recognizable as D&D
What I'm thinking at this point is, if I implement this, it's a given that the actual adjusted memory slot of a spell would be used for the mechanic; i.e., if a high-level spellcaster can only cast a second spell in a round that's 1/3 the level of the first spell (and again, I acknowledge the math gets weird prior to 3rd level spells), it means if he's casting a quickened 5th level spell, he's actually casting a 9th level spell, meaning he wouldn't be able to follow up with more than a 3rd level spell in that round. Once you throw in the metamagic feats it gets awfully wonky, I agree, and the potential for abuse is high. I'm also grateful I don't have a group of players particularly prone to munchkin-style abuses. They're more interested in having fun and doing cool stuff. :)
In regards to item use (wands, scrolls, staves, etc.), I'd likely limit that to just one use per round, as per normal. The end goal here is to reflect higher efficiency with spellcasting itself, not necessarily item use. A spellcaster reading off a scroll is reading off a scroll regardless of their personal spellcasting level. They aren't casting the spell themselves, their proficiency with spellcasting isn't really coming directly into play. I envision it as a difference akin to someone knowing the password to a computer vs. having to hack into the security: the one with the password doesn't bring their skill into play at all, the one doing the hacking is using nothing but their skill. I realize it creates some logical inconsistencies due to the nature of spell completion items vs. their alternative, but I'm keeping things intentionally broad here, because sadly, this system's rules start to break down quickly when too high a level of "common sense" gets applied to them. Sometimes common sense has to be set aside in the name of fun. I realize that for some players, it ceases being fun if common sense doesn't figure into it. I again note that for my group of players, they aren't the types to nitpick over that, or go hunting through every published rule to make mechanically optimal builds, etc. I personally love that style as a player, but realize what a headache it can create for GMs who aren't prepared to deal with it (or just don't want to).
Unquestioningly, "iterative casting" would work the same as iterative attacks for high BAB: the caster isn't getting more than a 5-foot step if they do it. Quicken Spell creates interesting problems: it's a swift action, meaning a caster could in theory still get off another spell already. My inclination at that point is to have the quickened spell figure into the calculation of the available "second spell" in the round. In other words, if the caster uses a quickened 5th level spell, they can get it off as normal, cast another spell as their Standard action, and then get their iterative spell, which could be no higher than 3rd level in accordance with the quickened spell having taken up a 9th level slot.
Yes, it does have the possibility of a spellcaster blowing through their prepared spells rather quickly if a player gets too overzealous. That's fine to me; if they didn't manage their resources well, those resources aren't there when they may potentially need them. Resource management is a baked-in limitation on spellcasting classes.
The problem in this whole thing lies with the issue that spellcasters seemingly sacrifice efficiency in their fundamental ability (casting spells) for more powerful spells. My mind is just having a rough time wrapping around the fact that these individuals eventually become masters of their craft, but fundamentally can't take more actions in a span of time than someone just starting off (a 1st level caster). They can apply metamagic feats, of course, but when you look over at martial classes, they don't require anything additional to display efficiency (not potency, efficiency) with their fundamental output: a Fighter just makes more attacks in a round at higher levels.
If someone has a different idea in mind to reflect improved efficiency for spellcasting, I'd be open to hearing it. I understand that successive castings in the same round quickly spirals into high levels of power due to the nature of magic in Pathfinder. I'm just looking for something satisfying to reflect improved efficiency for higher-level spellcasters, and something that doesn't invalidate existing feats (i.e., there's little point to having a level-based bonus to save DCs when there are feats that provide bonuses to save DCs).
Isn't the fact that they go from being only able to cast a single magic missile to stopping time itself or creating an entirely new plane of existence proof enough that they have become a more efficient spellcaster? We'll, that and the increased number of spells a day they get? I guess put me down in the group thinking this a really bad idea. Sorry.
Malith wrote: Isn't the fact that they go from being only able to cast a single magic missile to stopping time itself or creating an entirely new plane of existence proof enough that they have become a more efficient spellcaster? We'll, that and the increased number of spells a day they get? I guess put me down in the group thinking this a really bad idea. Sorry. I'd also point out that for many spells they get the effect of multiple attacks simply by virtue of the increased number of targets. At first level, I cast one missile that attacks one person, while the fighter swings his greataxe once at one person. At 9th level, I cast five missiles at five targets and hitting them all equally well. At that level the fighter is still only swinging his axe twice, at two targets, the second at a substantial penalty.
Somehow I'm not seeing a lot of room for sympathy about the poor underpowered wizard.
I've been toying with the idea of letting offensive spells be cast as 'attacks' in full attack actions. That is, purely offensive spells. So you can throw around Magic Missile, Fireball, and Lightning Bolt if you have 3 atacks in a round. I've also been tooling with a feat tree that lets you TWP with spells... On the other hand, spells like Time Stop, Cat's Grace, Invisibility, Wall Of Blah spells are all still standard actions that follow the base rules.
That said, this idea is being fiddled with for my ultra-bastardized home brew game utilizing a spell point pool, where you always cast at your minimum caster level unless you put more points into it. I love my 3.5 Unearthed Arcana book. Still trying to figure out if I should change mana costs to fit with that idea.
Disclaimer: I have no idea how that'd actually work out. It's just a fancy that struck me while I was bored with the basic system and thinking of ways to make it more entertaining and cinematic.
Edit: Oh, I forgot to add. You still have the option of casting a single offensive spell in a round that you move. Same as moving and making an attack. On the other hand, if you do it as attack actions via the BAB it comes with the BAB penalties. So, basically only rays and such that require atk rolls get used with that way of doing things. :p.... And longer spells equal to or longer than 1 round still cost that long. But I suppose that was redundant.
This is a terrible idea. Spell caster PCs are already overpowered compared to martial PCs, especially at higher level. They don't need any help. If anything, the casters need to be nerfed at higher levels.
Any time your house rules alter action efficiency you need to be very, very careful.
It's only a 'terrible idea' if the variant rule(s) don't somehow deal with the issues being raised such as action economy.
I think Orfamay Quest is hitting on at least one way higher level casters do become more "efficient". Namely the scaling by level effects (not just in damage) built into most spells as well as by getting higher level more potent spells.
I also think the OP is trying to variant some very core concepts to the game and is in for one heck of a project.
I think that allowing a second spell to be cast beside the more powerful higher level spells is way too powerful in general. Quicken Spell feat already does that aplenty. However, if you were to forsake casting higher level spells when casting the multiple spells, then perhaps the below "rule" might work for you?
Variant to the OP's idea:
As a full round action, multiple spells can be cast by a spell caster in a single round so long as the total spell levels cast is one less than the highest spell that is able to be cast per each spell after the first. Each spell is cast at a -2 caster level equivalent per each spell after the first.
Example: A level 5 wizard can cast level 3 spells. So, a level 5 wizard can cast two level 1 spells in a single round. Each of the spells is cast with an effective caster level of 3.
Example: A level 9 wizard can cast level 5 spells. So, a level 9 wizard can cast three level 1 spells in a single round. Each of the spells is cast with an effective caster level of 5.
It definitely gives an additional option for the spellcaster to improve action economy for casting lower level spells. A spellcaster could blow through a lot of the lower levels spells that might not be used anymore.
Rory wrote: I think that allowing a second spell to be cast beside the more powerful higher level spells is way too powerful in general. Quicken Spell feat already does that aplenty. However, if you were to forsake casting higher level spells when casting the multiple spells, then perhaps the below "rule" might work for you?
Variant to the OP's idea:
As a full round action, multiple spells can be cast by a spell caster in a single round so long as the total spell levels cast is one less than the highest spell that is able to be cast per each spell after the first. Each spell is cast at a -2 caster level equivalent per each spell after the first.
Example: A level 5 wizard can cast level 3 spells. So, a level 5 wizard can cast two level 1 spells in a single round. Each of the spells is cast with an effective caster level of 3.
Example: A level 9 wizard can cast level 5 spells. So, a level 9 wizard can cast three level 1 spells in a single round. Each of the spells is cast with an effective caster level of 5.
It definitely gives an additional option for the spellcaster to improve action economy for casting lower level spells. A spellcaster could blow through a lot of the lower levels spells that might not be used anymore.
This is very similar to my suggestion of using something like the "X = 2*(X-2)=3*(X-3)" (where X is spell level) mechanic from words of power
one level 4 spell = two lvl 2 spells = three lvl 1 spells
one level 7 spell = two lvl 5 spells = three lvl 4 spells
Now, keep in mind this still uses up your higher lvl slots as opposed to enabling to cast the lower level spell on top of the high level ones, but I think that giving a caster multiple spells for free would be seriously OP (or should be restricted to campaigns in which you only have full or 2/3 casters)
The full attack is actually a drawback for martial types. It limits their actions to maintain expected efficiency. A lvl 1-5 martial can move and attack and be at peak efficiency.
Past lvl6, your peak efficiency only occurs when you need to move 5ft or less.
Casters remain at full efficiency at all levels as their spells scale by CL and level of spell, for the same action type as they were using before (a standard). Only they also can start quickening spells as well.
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