Determining 'Random' Cards

[Mestrahd]

I was watching Tox's video (part III) and he used the Staff of Minor Healing (Recharge this card to recharge a random card from your discard pile) several times and each time shuffled his deck to get a random card.

Now the rulebook is SO explicit on this not being right, it says it twice in the same paragraph on pg 10. It says "do not change the order of the cards in the discard pile," and "never shuffle any stack of cards unless instructed to."

My question is, does the word 'random' mean 'shuffle this pile'? I could see a case being made for the word 'randomize' but not really 'random'. Or is there another intended way to randomize your discards, such as using the smallest die able to cover the amount of discards? If you are meant to use a die, what happens when you get 20-25 cards in your deck/discards?

I'm curious BECAUSE the rules are so adamant about it. What is the method of determining a random card if you aren't allowed to shuffle?

[Cheezgrater]

Mestrahd wrote:

I was watching Tox's video (part III) and he used the Staff of Minor Healing (Recharge this card to recharge a random card from your discard pile) several times and each time shuffled his deck to get a random card.

Now the rulebook is SO explicit on this not being right, it says it twice in the same paragraph on pg 10. It says "do not change the order of the cards in the discard pile," and "never shuffle any stack of cards unless instructed to."

My question is, does the word 'random' mean 'shuffle this pile'? I could see a case being made for the word 'randomize' but not really 'random'. Or is there another intended way to randomize your discards, such as using the smallest die able to cover the amount of discards? If you are meant to use a die, what happens when you get 20-25 cards in your deck/discards?

I'm curious BECAUSE the rules are so adamant about it. What is the method of determining a random card if you aren't allowed to shuffle?

I can see this argument going two different ways:

1.) The rules say that if a card's text conflicts with the printed rules, the card's text is to be seen as overriding the rulebook. You could argue that this is occurring, and the card instructions to recover a "random" card from the discards overrides the "do-not-shuffle-the-discards" rules. Shuffle the discard pile.

2.) The card does not specify shuffling the discard, therefore it does not trump the "do-not-shuffle" rule. Generate a random number by rolling an appropriate sized dice (need to add a d20 to the box for this. (Or randomize by other means. If you want to cart around a laptop and use an excel spreadsheet with an =RandBetween formula, feel free).

Your concern about dice not being sufficient when the discard pile exceeds 20 cards is more of a corner-case. It takes 10 card feats to get a character to 25 cards in their starting deck. If no character has ever taken a Hand Size increase when they got a power feat...

Only 4 characters are "still alive" when the discard stack hits 21. Seelah, Sajan, Amiri, and Valeros could have a 21 card discard and a 4 card hand, thus still being alive. As soon as they have to discard something....they are dead on the next hand reset.

Kyra, Lini, Merisiel, and Harsk hit that situation at 20 cards in discard/5 in hand. Seoni, Ezren, and Lem all break at 19 discard / 6 hand.

Of course, by the time you have acquired 10 card feats, you almost certainly have taken 1 or two hand size increases, which pulls those numbers down and makes the discard stack exceeding 20 even more unlikely.

I don't see discard stacks >20 cards occurring often enough to worry about if you want to use a d20 to randomize the discard pile for healing if you want to go that route.

[Myriade]

I believe that when a card says ''random'' is one the situation when you're instructed to shuffle.

[Steve Geddes]

I've just been ignoring the no shuffle rule, however to avoid that I'd turn the stack over and roll an appropriately sized die (bigger than the stack), then count down that number of cards.

If you have to create bigger numbers roll a d6 and a d12 together - for example, if the d6 shows 1-3 treat the roll as whatever the face of the d12 is. If the d6 shows 4-6 treat the roll as the d12 roll plus twelve.

[Mestrahd]

@Cheezgrater, I'm actually leaning toward your #2 myself. 'Random' is an adjective, therefore should not be used to mean 'shuffle', which is a verb. Adding a d20 is actually a *facepalm* good idea, although I hadn't actually done the math to see who could have 20 cards in their discard pile.

Thanks, I'll go with that for now until I hear otherwise from Vic.

[Cheezgrater]

Another alternative - turn your discard deck upside down, fan it out, and just grab cards at random ( or have another player do it)

[Myriade]

I guess I just never tought about using dice ( duh! Cmomment for me).

[TClifford]

I think the 'don't shuffle the deck' rule really only comes into play for Lem because he has the ability swap the top card no the discard pile. Beyond that, if it say random, that tells me to shuffle. Though, I can see an argument for rolling a die. Though that makes using the Cure spell a little annoying.

BTW, with all the shuffling, I highly recommend card protectors folks. Really saving my game right now. Found after only 6 plays some of the cards were showing wear. Found someone on Ebay that was selling them for .99/100. Got 1000 for like $16 with S/H. Should hold me off for awhile. Only problem was I haven't played MtG in like 20 years so took me awhile to remember the easy way to shuffle cards in protectors :P

[Myriade]

TClifford wrote:

Only problem was I haven't played MtG in like 20 years so took me awhile to remember the easy way to shuffle cards in protectors :P

Can you share? :0) I've never played with card sleeves.

[TClifford]

Well, a normal two thumb shuffle is kinda hard with sleeves, so what you do is take 1/2 the cards in one hand and the other 1/2 in another hand. In the first hand sorta hold them loosely so they separate a little. Then just merge the other 1/2 into the first half and you should get a really good shuffle. 3-4 times and you are good. It really great for the 10 card location and 15 card character decks and I think it is even easier than the kinda pull a couple of cards out and shove them back in method.

[Myriade]

Thanks

[Mike Riley 302]

You can also shuffle the cards together on the long edge. That's what I've been doing.

[Everthefool]

Mike Riley 302 wrote:

You can also shuffle the cards together on the long edge. That's what I've been doing.

If sleeved, this is the perfect way to shuffle.

[austinmonster]

TClifford wrote:

I think the 'don't shuffle the deck' rule really only comes into play for Lem because he has the ability swap the top card no the discard pile.

Lem's ability states -

At the start of your turn, you may exchange 1 card in your hand with 1 card of the same type in your discard pile

I still can't see WHY we have that "do not snuffle" rule. I've been shuffling every time I need randoms.

[Entice]

The Apothecary location says to put the top 1d6 cards from your discard pile into your deck. If you're never supposed to shuffle it, you can use that to your advantage.

[austinmonster]

Entice wrote:

The Apothecary location says to put the top 1d6 cards from your discard pile into your deck. If you're never supposed to shuffle it, you can use that to your advantage.

I knew there was one card that I've seen so far that referenced it - but still, barring this I don't see the real difference in shuffling VS not shuffling. It might have more of an effect in adventures that I haven't been though yet.

[Mike Selinker]

We've been using "randomly take some cards" to mean "shuffle and take that number of cards." I can see how the wording would be confusing, though. Anyway, cards trump rules, so "randomize" trumps "don't shuffle."

[TClifford]

austinmonster wrote:

TClifford wrote:

I think the 'don't shuffle the deck' rule really only comes into play for Lem because he has the ability swap the top card no the discard pile.

Lem's ability states -

At the start of your turn, you may exchange 1 card in your hand with 1 card of the same type in your discard pile

I still can't see WHY we have that "do not snuffle" rule. I've been shuffling every time I need randoms.

Yea, you are right. I haven't actually played with him yet and I was watching another thread and someone mentioned that his ability was to take the top card from the discard pile. I guess they were wrong and I compounded that by looking it up.

So yea, ignore what I said earlier.

[Mestrahd]

That would indeed be true, Mike, if any of them said "randomize". Random != Randomize. But I can play it that way, it is easier.

[Mike Selinker]

Seems like more internal discussion is needed on this point. We'll get back to you on this.

Mike

[Mike Selinker]

This is now answered in the FAQ.

When a card tells me to select a random card, how do I do it?
Shuffle the hand, deck, or pile of cards and then draw. Yes, this can indeed have major effects on the deck.
Resolution: Add a "Rules" sidebar to the rulebook (we will probably add it on page 15) that says the following:
"Rules: Randomizing Cards
Whenever you are instructed to choose random cards, shuffle the cards and draw from the top."

[Fromper]

Hmm... I've actually been rolling dice to select random dice when I cast cure, because it seems faster than all that shuffling. The fact that it keeps the discard pile intact was just a bonus.

[Mike Selinker]

The order of your discard pile will never matter while I have anything to say about it.

However, there's another discard pile where it does matter, and that's the blessings deck. Selecting a random card from the blessings discard pile (example: Holy Candle) will indeed reshuffle that pile and likely change the top card.

[Fromper]

Mike Selinker wrote:

The order of your discard pile will never matter while I have anything to say about it.

Well, that's interesting. Then why does the rulebook explicitly say not to change the order of your discard pile? I kinda figured that there was some card we hadn't seen yet that intentionally recharged cards from the top or bottom or something like that.

As long as I know it won't matter, I'm ok with no longer caring about keeping it in order.

[Mike Selinker]

There isn't such a card, but we always aim to future-proof the game in case a card does do that. Maybe I shouldn't have been as strong-willed about what I said. Amend that to, "None of the cards in the pipeline care about the order of your discard pile."

[Fromper]

Mike Selinker wrote:

There isn't such a card, but we always aim to future-proof the game in case a card does do that. Maybe I shouldn't have been as strong-willed about what I said. Amend that to, "None of the cards in the pipeline care about the order of your discard pile."

Err... double check the wording on the Apothecary location card.

[cartmanbeck]

Mike Selinker wrote:

The order of your discard pile will never matter while I have anything to say about it.

However, there's another discard pile where it does matter, and that's the blessings deck. Selecting a random card from the blessings discard pile (example: Holy Candle) will indeed reshuffle that pile and likely change the top card.

This is interesting! I've been assuming that when you use, say, the Holy Candle, that you leave the top card alone and shuffle the rest of them to choose random ones. This will add an interesting new mechanic to our games, since the Holy Candle is coveted by our players and is in someone's deck in pretty much every game I'm playing in. Having the blessing change in the middle of your turn could cause some unique stuff to happen. :-D

[Mike Selinker]

Fromper wrote:

Err... double check the wording on the Apothecary location card.

Uh, right. Sometimes I forget... things.

Anyway, the rule stands: If you shuffle your discard pile, the top cards will change.