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So my Saturday game literally just ended and it ended with a TPK. My group delved into the first room of a dungeon where I had a small squad of kobold underlings, CR 1/2. Then a friend who was bored stopped by and I let her play the kobold sorcerer (level 1) I had on hand, who was standing next to a book shelf.
Party comes through and decimates the underlings, til only one is left, guarding the sorceror. Calmly, my friend has the sorcerer, 'Shelfbold', cast Color Spray. Level one party with five people; four go down for a full eight rounds. Circle a round, last PC kills last underling, Shelfbold casts sleep. PC is down. Coup de grace. End of party.
Chronicling this mishap before I forget.
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Don't give your bad guys Color Spray and Sleep unless you want people to get knocked unconscious or asleep.
I didn't think much of it at the time. I had earlier taken the Level One Sorcerer from the NPC Codex and made changes until it was a lowly kobold. I then swapped out its magic missile for sleep, because I figured it would make Shelfbold dangerous without having her be a damage dealer. I think their lethality came into play though when I handed them over for a person to play. I likely wuld have run Shelfbold as focusing on one person at a time, opening with sleep followed by her club. But my friend? Maneuvers for maximum effect.
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missed opportunity there. should have had the kobold lock them in some dark delving and go all Saw on them or something or at least test their latest deathtraps on the party. Kobolds are diabolical bastards.
I had a cavalier captured by them once and they fed him his horse....
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1st level Sorcerers, as PCs or NPCs, are rough. Either you give them burning hands or magic missile, and they do such pathetic damage that they might as well not have bothered, or you give them color spray or sleep, and they can wipe out the entire party on a bad set of rolls.
Conditions, IMO, come in grades. Conditions like deafened or lamed or staggered can be very effective at low levels, while stuff that paralyzes or nauseates or sleeps or panics, IMO, belongs a bit higher up the chart. 1st level spells probably shouldn't be making people completely helpless, and, when they do, they shouldn't be affecting entire *groups* of people. Some conditions are explicitly staged, like shaken -> frightened or fatigued -> exhausted, and others would fit neatly into that dynamic (sickened -> nauseated, a version of dazzled that didn't suck -> blinded, etc.).
A version of sleep that just makes foes drowsy and staggers them would still be useful, but not a TPK in a box, for instance. No free coup de graces for anyone. If you want to make people totally helpless, hold out for something a little beefier than a 1st level spell...
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At least the kobold made a level.
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Excellent. The new party can be led by that sorcerer. He's clearly more worth following than the so-called heroes who died in their first combat.
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how is it that these underlings have a higher CR than kobold warriors?
how is it that these underlings have a higher CR than kobold warriors?
I was using the Underling Rules from Minotaur Games- four underlings in the squad together had a CR of 1/2. Individually it was much less.
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how is it that these underlings have a higher CR than kobold warriors?I was using the Underling Rules from Minotaur Games- four underlings in the squad together had a CR of 1/2. Individually it was much less.
Oh okay, that makes more sense.
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A good end. Nicely played.
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*Makes notes to include color spray in the repertoires of all low level NPC arcane spell casters...*
Unless the PC’s all dump-stated WIS so much they were bound to fail, this was a mistake on your part.
Simple bad luck should not be a reason for a TPK or even a PC death.
This was poorly done and planned. Next time, no Sleep or Color spray.
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DrDeth, some games are okay with fudging or 'redoing' failed saves. Some aren't. It's especially unfair to cheat in the party's favor when there's effectively a PC up against them, since that makes the anti-PC feel like they're wasting their time playing.
There's no sense throwing around judgements about wrongbadfun. It never gets anyone anywhere.
I wasn't saying the saves needed to be re rolled or that it was badwrongfun. Of course the players might not have thought it was so much fun, eh? I mean I guess you could have a TPK that was fun, I have had some pretty glorious PC deaths, but "he casts a spell, I rolled bad, oops dead" might not be that much fun.
I am saying is that the DM choose poorly on spells for abbey, which ended a encounter in a TPK.
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Perhaps a 'well that escalated quickly' rule where certain fights can get a redo. Like the 'everyone is slept' or 'rocks fall'((or just hero points)
so people don't have to twiddle thumbs for the rest of the evening or go home.
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If the dice are against you, you are already dead.
My apologies, Deth. By your statement that "simple bad luck should not be a reason for a TPK", I assumed you were saying dice should be rerolled when they 'unfairly' kill a PC.
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The dice gods are always fair. We gamble, thus we may always lose.
*Bows in prayer*
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If it makes people feel better the TPK was well timed- only about ten minutes earlier than our normal quitting time; besides, everyone involved seemed to have had a blast.
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To anyone saying the kobold sorcerer shouldn't have been allowed to know sleep or color spray:
What would you say, if the situation were turned around, and a PC sorcerer were going about her business among her people, and some humanoids with class levels burst into the village, and began indiscriminately slaughtering commoners, such as might happen, in a published adventure, such as Rise of The Runelords?
When the PC sorcerer steps out from hiding, and lets loose with color spray or sleep, would you handwave some targets unaffected, allow them rerolled saves, or tell the player they are not allowed to choose either of those spells?
If not, why not?
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The kobold sorc was totally above board and legit, from what we know.
I follow Core Pathfinder aside from rounding up.
I don't undestand. Sorcerer casted sleep for a full round and the remaining PC didn't interrupted?
Then, the sorcerer was able to move to each of the falling posititions of the PC and coup de grace the five of them to death (which Strenght? Which weapon día he used?) in just 7 rounds?
The sorcerer and underling started moving around and coup de gracing. The party had been huddled in a group so they were all adjacent. And the person hit my sleep was the parties sorcerer who went down long enough for the underling to get him.
EDIT: And what does CdG stand for?
The sorcerer and underling started moving around and coup de gracing. The party had been huddled in a group so they were all adjacent. And the person hit my sleep was the parties sorcerer who went down long enough for the underling to get him.
EDIT: And what does CdG stand for?
Coup de Gras
Coup de GrasThe sorcerer and underling started moving around and coup de gracing. The party had been huddled in a group so they were all adjacent. And the person hit my sleep was the parties sorcerer who went down long enough for the underling to get him.
EDIT: And what does CdG stand for?
Coup de Grâce svp.
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The sorcerer and underling started moving around and coup de gracing. The party had been huddled in a group so they were all adjacent. And the person hit my sleep was the parties sorcerer who went down long enough for the underling to get him.
EDIT: And what does CdG stand for?
I think what he meant was that the 'sleep' spell takes a full round to cast. As in, it doesn't go off until the next round and the surviving party member would have had until then to at least shoot a magic missile at him and possibly interrupt the casting.
Though, it sounds like this still wouldn't have saved him. The kobold could have just cast another color spray.
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'Shelfbold', cast Color Spray. Level one party with five people; four go down for a full eight rounds. Circle a round, last PC kills last underling, Shelfbold casts sleep. PC is down. Coup de grace. End of party.
Sounds like the last PC was fighting the last underling during the round while the kobold was casting sleep.
Although you do have the last underling dying and also helping CdG PCs after the battle, as written right now, OP. :)
Kobald party would be pretty awesome.
The way it went down, the party's sorcerer was focusing on getting rid of the last underling, giving Shelfbold time to use sleep.
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Hail zhe lowly mighty kobold zorcerer. Yu are zhe next of a vine breed. Ztand proud.
There's a certain amount of power you put in an NPC, as a GM selecting Colour Spray you should already know how ridiculously over powered it is. Sleep by itself has a fairly large set of weaknesses but seriously, colour spray?
Stunned for 2d4 rounds, then blinded and stunned for 1d4 then stunned for for a further 1 round? That's a minimum of 4 rounds of stun on minimum roll. At least with sleep players can spend a standard action to wake up sleeping team mates. You need a level 3 spell to remove paralysis, even then it only allows a reroll when the whole party is down.
~~~
If anyone would suggest that Kobolds should pull out all the stops to defeat anyone who attacks their home, while that's role playing right, a GM's job is not to kill the PCs as quickly as possible.
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way back in plain old 3rd ed, made a kobold that had been raised by monks since a lil egg. I loved that little guy, kobold trap -fu for the win. Like they said, have your party roll up a bunch of kobolds like maybe after the last adventurers came down the kobolds decided to say 'hey! we are peopleish things too adventure party gather and go stop the evil assaulting our homes!' could be good good times
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Calmly, my friend has the sorcerer, 'Shelfbold', cast Color Spray. Level one party with five people; four go down for a full eight rounds. Circle a round, last PC kills last underling, Shelfbold casts sleep. PC is down. Coup de grace. End of party.
So...
Color Spray
PC fights underling
Sleep begins
PC kills underling
Sleep goes off
Kobold CdGs each PC one after another, all failing saves
No, this is not unbelievable. This is just a normal Pathfinder game.
Yeah, technically TOZ has the right of it. Most GMs just don't play NPCs that intelligently, with well-built casters with strong spell lists and skillful tactical use of their resources. It doesn't help that in the APs and such spells known/prepared are often chosen for space limitations, iconic spell recognition (everybody knows magic missile and what it does, not so many people know how nasty color spray can be until they've headbutted against it a few times), and such like over straight mechanical power and optimal access.
It's why any notable caster (especially bosses) I use in an AP, I always rebuild from scratch, spells and all.
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Yep. It's not that most GMs are incapable, because I imagine most people who have GMed for a while learn the ins and outs of the game. (There are always exceptions of course, and I'm not speaking of new people, obviously.) Mostly it's that a lot of players don't expect it, don't prepare for it, and get upset when it happens. Or the GM is just playing them as-written, rather than rebuilding the NPCs for more effective competition when needed.
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Yep. It's not that most GMs are incapable, because I imagine most people who have GMed for a while learn the ins and outs of the game. (There are always exceptions of course, and I'm not speaking of new people, obviously.) Mostly it's that a lot of players don't expect it, don't prepare for it, and get upset when it happens. Or the GM is just playing them as-written, rather than rebuilding the NPCs for more effective competition when needed.
Tell me about it. We've mostly played APs in the past few years. And players have gotten used to mostly easy encounters.
Now we're playing a homebrew, and I am playing NPCs smartly and relatively optimizing monsters.
Take this example. A harpy hunter with a composite longbow and deadly aim wreaked havoc in a party. A single harpy. Because they were used to easiness.
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Sounds like a fun time in the old dungeon to me. ;)
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Take this example. A harpy hunter with a composite longbow and deadly aim wreaked havoc in a party. A single harpy. Because they were used to easiness.
I can see how that could happen. All comes down to what the players want, for the most part. Some players really like a challenge that is going to test their character's abilities and their own abilities as far as problem solving.
Other players just want a pretty straight-forward game where they're generally expected to win without too much effort.
