I hate that I have to roll a 19-20 just to hit tanky pc's that aren't meant to be tanky to begin with. );
Why not raise enemy to-hit?
Just slap some buffs on them, call them high CL potions made by the tribe shaman or whatever, and watch those to-hits soar!
I hate that paladins are immune to fear.
No one human is immune to fear.
The fact that paladins are immune to fear by RAW makes me want to bludgeon someone with a wet sock while screaming "Oy ! You immune to that, you [redacted] ?"
Apart from that, I love paladins and I rarely make them fall from grace because that's overused and... unfair I guess.
In real life I don't know what fear feels like, and I've almost died on multiple occasions. If I can be utterly fearless, then I see no reason why a paladin can't be.
Further, real life humans are never more than level 5 in the d20 systems, so pushing fearless to some high level is just as messed up as not allowing it in the first place.
Honestly though, I'd prefer it as a trait or feat that can be selected by anybody at character creation. Fearlessness seems more like an aspect of my personal self rather than any training I've received.
In real life I don't know what fear feels like...Have you been diagnosed with Urbach-Wiethe?
No, besides emotional memory and feeling emotions are two very different things.
I hate that paladins are immune to fear.
No one human is immune to fear.
The fact that paladins are immune to fear by RAW makes me want to bludgeon someone with a wet sock while screaming "Oy ! You immune to that, you [redacted] ?"
Apart from that, I love paladins and I rarely make them fall from grace because that's overused and... unfair I guess.
In real life I don't know what fear feels like, and I've almost died on multiple occasions. If I can be utterly fearless, then I see no reason why a paladin can't be.
Further, real life humans are never more than level 5 in the d20 systems, so pushing fearless to some high level is just as messed up as not allowing it in the first place.
Honestly though, I'd prefer it as a trait or feat that can be selected by anybody at character creation. Fearlessness seems more like an aspect of my personal self rather than any training I've received.
By "real life humans" do you mean npcs that are meant to be normal? They can have some impressive levels but it is rare to see them very high. Constables, sheriffs, captains and the like can sometimes have a good hand of levels of behind them, having a lot of levels isn't just for adventurers, but I agree it is usually pretty low for norms. I like when a dm mixes that expectation up though.
"Real life humans" and representing their capabilities in a d20 system they can definitely be considered to be above level 5, if we consider bab and attack potential as a measure of capabilities. The trained and experienced can attack, throw things and shoot arrows many times within six seconds. Some of the martial arts kicking around teach you how to fight two people at once, so spreading your attacks and hurting two (or more) simultaneously. The capabilities of normal people (X-men need not apply) with some training can be amazing.
Glad to hear you are fearless, and yes, I find that a very strong ability of the paladins - especially in a horror themed campaign: "everyone roll will saves vs. fear, oh except the paladin... like always". I like it, and wouldn't ever change it.
By "real life human", I mean IRL.
Someone who doesn't fear anything breaks the suspension of disbelief for me.
Yes, I heard you, GM DarkLightHitomi: you're fearless [*scratches his head in puzzlement*].
So, after checking on the allmighty intarweb, I learned that there are actually fearless children.
Now I must take some time to adjust my world view accordingly, which is darn difficult to do after my head has exploded...
DarkLightHitomi: I shun you most vigorously for making me change my mind (kidding :-) !
P.S. I still prefer fearful paladins because of my sheer gnomish stubborness :-P.
PPS.: Live long and prosper, DarkLightHitomi !
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Being 'immune to fear' as a game mechanic has nothing to do with whether you're afraid or not, and everything to do with retaining control of your actions despite the fear you feel.
Oh, you still feel fear when Cthulu turns up and wants to know why you're wearing his dressing gown, reading his paper and in bed with his wife. But you are not magically forced to run away.
When you run away, it's because you want to...!
Nope. The GM getting his or her jollies through playing a real, bona fide PC is a thoroughly bad idea. Others disagree, of course, because THEY have the wrong idea. Usually, they are too blind to see this, of course.I loathe the idea of GMPCs.You must have the wrong idea then.Seeing someone who's apparently unable (or just flatly unwilling?) to comprehend that others' experiences may be different from his own is fascinating.
Edit: For a contribution to the thread - I loathe Magic: the Gathering. Despite numerous attempts (most of my gaming group is big on Magic), I've never played a round of Magic that I've actually enjoyed.
Make a quick kill deck, mostly red, then gang up with the other players on the most threatening player. The game is actually fun if you are not the first player eliminated.
@ DM under the bridge
Don't measure by bab or combat. Combat is the least real and most abstracted. Look at the secondaries, skills, carry capacity, etc.
Read Calibrating Your Expectations by The Alexandrian.
http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/creations.html
Skills come really close to matching human maximums at 5th level. 3.0 was closer, but still, above level 5 characters are more capable than any real life human.
Interesting. And I have never done that to a player.I have never not had that happen.I find character backstory to be a waste of time.I find making an in-depth character backstory, then having it ignored by a gm that asked for it, to be a waste of time.
I admit that I probably did this in years past, but I wouldn't dream of doing so now. I ask for backgrounds for my players' characters because I fully expect and plan on running sideplots that intersect with the main storyline. It helps to add a lot of twists and turns to an adventure ... even to an adventure path, which some players may have some knowledge of beforehand, but which can be changed up and made unpredictable through the inclusion of character-driven sideplots.
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Being 'immune to fear' as a game mechanic has nothing to do with whether you're afraid or not, and everything to do with retaining control of your actions despite the fear you feel.
Oh, you still feel fear when Cthulu turns up and wants to know why you're wearing his dressing gown, reading his paper and in bed with his wife. But you are not magically forced to run away.
When you run away, it's because you want to...!
Thank you! This is a very old beef of mine, and I'm glad to see someone else interpreting the rule in this way. Immunity to Fear does, in my opinion, not make you incapable of feeling fear at all. A person who cannot feel fear has very little reason to understand some very basic moral concepts such as "thou shalt not force people to walk slowly into machine-gun fire from prepared, enfilading positions" (I'm looking at you, Field Marshall Haig and General Rawlinson), and at least in some cases (or should it be Somme cases, considering the example above) it would make such a person incapable of understanding the concept of fear in others, which could lead to downright psychopathic behaviour, which is a personality disorder where the subject is incapable of understanding the validity of other people's emotions.
However, "Immunity to Fear" DOES allow the subject, through sheer willpower, strength of character or faith (or both), bloodyminded determination, magical means or outright divine intervention, to ignore the consequences of fear, including compulsion effects ... even from magical effects.
But to say that a paladin cannot experience one of the most primal and necessary emotions on the entire spectrum ... I don't buy that.
Plus, in my humble opinion, it make a paladin tougher by a factor of, I dunno ... lots and lots, carry the lots and add lots ... LOTS! To actually feel the sense of dread washing over you that makes an entire army turn tail and run when a flight of red dragons land in front of their lines and start to inhale, and yet having the courage to not run away ...
That's epic.
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A person who cannot feel fear has very little reason to understand some very basic moral concepts such as "thou shalt not force people to walk slowly into machine-gun fire from prepared, enfilading positions" (I'm looking at you, Field Marshall Haig and General Rawlinson), and at least in some cases (or should it be Somme cases, considering the example above) it would make such a person incapable of understanding the concept of fear in others, which could lead to downright psychopathic behaviour, which is a personality disorder where the subject is incapable of understanding the validity of other people's emotions.
Why should Haig have felt fear? After all, *HE* wasnt the one that was gonna be machinegunned down. He could sit there, fat and safe and senile in his cozy office miles from the front lines, and play tinsoldiers with other men's lives.
One of the bravest things I ever saw portrayed was Black Adder's "over the top" finale.
I confess I'm always surprised when someone who says they hate Pathfinder and prefer another system posts on the Paizo boards. I mean, *I* think the boards are awesome but I enjoy the system too? I don't understand.Perhaps they like paizo but not pathfinder? Perhaps they like Golarion or adapt paizo's adventures to another system? Perhaps they posted here before pathfinder existed and are comfortable with the forum and part of the community?
Lots of reasons to post here, even if you do hate pathfinder.
Bingo! I like Paizo, I'd like to someday play or run a Paizo AP, and I've been here since the 3.5 days.
I don't even hate PF. There are things I hate about PF -- no level-based AC bonus, wizards being incapable of the humble cure light wounds spell, along with a lot of minor thematic and mechanical inconsistencies -- but these are things I also hated about 3.0-.5. Which was my favorite rpg for eight years.
So I actually like PF; I just don't run or seek out PF campaigns.
So, after checking on the allmighty intarweb, I learned that there are actually fearless children.
Now I must take some time to adjust my world view accordingly, which is darn difficult to do after my head has exploded...
DarkLightHitomi: I shun you most vigorously for making me change my mind (kidding :-) !
P.S. I still prefer fearful paladins because of my sheer gnomish stubborness :-P.
PPS.: Live long and prosper, DarkLightHitomi !
Yep. Great you went looking for information. Best of luck with the head reassembly.
@ The Alkenstarian
I think you overplay the importance of fear, just a small amount. I don't need to feel fear to know that others feel an emotion that can be inhibiting to their morale and even their actions, though I don't what it is like to experience it myself and can't roleplay it because of that lack of experience.
I also have very strong morals, though based on reason rather than empathy (which I believe is better in the long run anyway and I can feel other emotions just fine such as joy or love). For example, I would never send a guy to walk straight towards a prepared gun nest, first because it would be a life wasted not spent or merely risked, and second, because I lead from the front, I won't ask a soldier to do what I won't do, and while the mission comes first, dead soldier can no longer help achieve a success, therefore, survival us a secondary objective for as many as possible. I also have respect for the fact that I'd like to keep living and I would hate someone else trying to waste my life, therefore would never to that to someone else. (A modified golden rule since the original doesn't work well for me. It goes thusly "Do not do to others what you would not have them do to you.")
Fearlessness does not need to lead to psychopathy. In science, you may not understand physics, but do you need to, to feel that there is some validity to the theories of those who study it for years? Same case here, I don't feel fear, but I know that I don't understand everything about others and therefore I expect there to be valid aspects about other people that I don't understand.
Psychopathy is just one possibility, not the only one.
@ DM under the bridge
Don't measure by bab or combat. Combat is the least real and most abstracted. Look at the secondaries, skills, carry capacity, etc.
Read Calibrating Your Expectations by The Alexandrian.
http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/creations.htmlSkills come really close to matching human maximums at 5th level. 3.0 was closer, but still, above level 5 characters are more capable than any real life human.
I have a problem with the 5th level blacksmith example. Why would he have 18 intelligence and be 5th level? This is meant to be about normal people and their capabilities through the system yeah? If you want to get up to the skill of a true master while also being a rather normal person, then they would be 9th level with 10 int (or thereabouts). Then you can get a +19 or so, without being a genius (but with the help, covered in the original equations). The blacksmith probably needs more skill and experience than to be a genius (only seen a few docos on blacksmithing, I would welcome someone with relevant expertise to weigh in here).
"It means that the most extraordinary blacksmiths in the real world top out at 5th level. Amakuni, the legendary Japanese swordsmith who created the folded-steel technique? 5th level."
Or 9th, and not have truly unusual high levels of intelligence, which I am not sure really helps with blacksmithing, given how important the body, conditioning (able to keep at it for hours in unpleasant conditions with metal flying in your face) and technique is. That is a problem with the skill though, and I did see a dm weigh in on making it more real in its physical requirements (low con and low strength blacksmiths need not apply, because they have trouble applying themselves for long periods).
I think the "stats" of these normals are inflated, so that the author can claim normal people can only be 5th level to get the very good results. I liked the jumping section though, thanks.
I think you missed the point.
For example, if an average guy can get to 9th, why not the smart guy?, so then if the smart guy reaches 9th, then what?
The point behind saying 18 int is that the upper limit is barely acheived by those individuals who are best suited to the task both in inherent ability and training. Those who have only one or the other will achieve less, therefore, an examination of maximum limits focuses on those most likely to reach those limits.
Einstein wasn't some idiot off the street who studied and trained till he was the best, he had all the right stuff to begin with and then studied and trained to be the best, that is why was above the others, because he had something the others could not gain through mere training. If the same results could be achieved through mere training, then why don't we have dozens of Einsteins running around, and what could be achieved by someone who had the exceptional intellect and the superior training?
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Speaking of opinions that will get you shunned, I can't stand that so many people seem to think that bolding speech frees them from the ordinary usage of punctuation, specifically quotation marks. Why not just post your entire speech in all caps, or l33t-speak?
I failed English in school, he said.
is not the same as
"I failed Engligh in school," he said.
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A person who cannot feel fear has very little reason to understand some very basic moral concepts such as "thou shalt not force people to walk slowly into machine-gun fire from prepared, enfilading positions" (I'm looking at you, Field Marshall Haig and General Rawlinson), and at least in some cases (or should it be Somme cases, considering the example above) it would make such a person incapable of understanding the concept of fear in others, which could lead to downright psychopathic behaviour, which is a personality disorder where the subject is incapable of understanding the validity of other people's emotions.Why should Haig have felt fear? After all, *HE* wasnt the one that was gonna be machinegunned down. He could sit there, fat and safe and senile in his cozy office miles from the front lines, and play tinsoldiers with other men's lives.
One of the bravest things I ever saw portrayed was Black Adder's "over the top" finale.
Amen!
I still get a lump in my throat from watching that. It is everything you don't expect from Blackadder, and that's why it hits so damn hard.