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Lotion, something you might consider for a pure face beater monk at that level is ki mystic archetype. At 19 they get a stellar melee power:
Mystic Persistence (Su): At 19th level, a ki mystic can create an aura once per day as a swift action at the cost of at least 2 points of ki. The aura emanates out to a 20-foot radius. The monk and all allies within the aura can roll two dice when making an attack roll or a saving throw and take the better result. The aura lasts for 1 round, plus an additional round for every 2 ki points spent when the monk created the aura. The monk can dismiss the aura at any time as a free action, but the ki points for the full duration of the aura are lost. This ability replaces empty body.
This was a hidden gem on the no gear halfling that a lot of folks probably also didn't realize.
Ha ha. Oh wow I can't believe I missed that. I'll have to see how those archetypes mix.
But yeah, I can never make a pure beater, I always like to splash a little utility in.
Oh yeah, man. Oh yeah.
That would have possibly allowed the gearless guy to put out decent damage with Piranha Strike. +19/+19/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4 (2d8+8/19-20 x2) isn't too terrible vs. a plain gear fighter when you get to roll each of those attack rolls twice.
Thanks Lorymr.
I found it. I had completely forgotten about Demonic Obedience's in the Lords of Chaos. I actually have that book and looking forward to take one. Now they have them for good deities? I'm going to have to get that book. Those are nifty. I can't believe I forgot about them.
That's why I like reading threads with builds. You find something new or you may have forgotten.
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You're welcome Jeferson and Raith. Chronicles of the Righteous if the book if I haven't mentioned already - can't recall if I have earlier or not.
There are some very good ones out of there, Raith. Once you look through you will note I picked some of the tamer ones. How would you like to be a gargantuan earth or fire elemental for an hour a day instead?
A gargantuan sized level 20 monk under the effects of strong jaw, which is amazingly easy and reliable to do yourself at that level, inflicts 16d8 damage per unarmed hit before any other modifiers.
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Builds will come later, but from what I can figure at high levels monks will have:
Better AC.
Better Saves.
Better immunities.
Better SR.
Better mobility.
More Attack options.
Better CMB for many maneuvers.
Better CMD.
More Skill points.The only places where the fighter is better is that a fighter will have:
Higher DPR
1 point of health per level more
1 point higher strength
Higher flat footed ACTo keep things simple I am only looking at CRB material for both classes. When you go outside of that, both classes get neat options. Let's assume for a moment that both of them are equally boosted by non-CRB material.
Anyone disagree? Is the extra DPR worth the flaws the Fighter has at high levels?
Better at what? That looks good on paper, but I have never seen it translate well in an actual game.
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Do spell/effects taht increaze sieze stacks?
A gargantuan sized level 20 monk under the effects of strong jaw, which is amazingly easy and reliable to do yourself at that level, inflicts 16d8 damage per unarmed hit before any other modifiers.
Almost never. Most spells that increase size are of the Transmutation (polymorph) subschool, which states:
"You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell."
Additionally, most of the common spells used for such things (enlarge person, righteous might, ect.) have this text in their description:
"Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."
The reason that strong jaw works with any size increase is because of it's wording, notably it does not actually increase your size:
"Laying a hand upon an allied creature's jaw, claws, tentacles, or other natural weapons, you enhance the power of that creature's natural attacks. Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is. If the creature is already Gargantuan or Colossal-sized, double the amount of damage dealt by each of its natural attacks instead. This spell does not actually change the creature's size; all of its statistics except the amount of damage dealt by its natural attacks remain unchanged."
A strongly damage max monk [ki mystic/weapon adept/qinggong] would have a Strength of 49:
18 base
2 race
5 level up
6 inherent (orc eldritch heritage)
6 belt
2 weapon adept level 20
10 size from turning into a gargantuan earth elemental
And would run Arcane Strike, Power Attack, Celestial Obedience to shape change into said elemental, boots of speed, an +5 amulet of mighty fists, and easily self-employed scrolls of strong jaw for an attack routine of:
18 BAB
19 Str
1 weapon focus
5 amulet
1 competence
1 morale
1 haste
-3 size
-6 Power Attack
to hit, and...
28 Str
5 amulet
1 quain martial artist
5 Arcane Strike
12 Power Attack
damage, for...
+37/+37/+37/+32/+32/+27/+27/+22 (16d8+51/19-20). He would also be rolling 2d20 for each attack roll and keeping the best result.
Do spell/effects taht increaze sieze stacks?
A gargantuan sized level 20 monk under the effects of strong jaw, which is amazingly easy and reliable to do yourself at that level, inflicts 16d8 damage per unarmed hit before any other modifiers.Almost never. Most spells that increase size are of the Transmutation (polymorph) subschool, which states:
"You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell."
Additionally, most of the common spells used for such things (enlarge person, righteous might, ect.) have this text in their description:
"Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."
The reason that strong jaw works with any size increase is because of it's wording, notably it does not actually increase your size:
"Laying a hand upon an allied creature's jaw, claws, tentacles, or other natural weapons, you enhance the power of that creature's natural attacks. Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is. If the creature is already Gargantuan or Colossal-sized, double the amount of damage dealt by each of its natural attacks instead. This spell does not actually change the creature's size; all of its statistics except the amount of damage dealt by its natural attacks remain unchanged."
A strongly damage max monk [ki mystic/weapon adept/qinggong] would have a Strength of 49:
18 base
2 race
5 level up
6 inherent (orc eldritch heritage)
6 belt
2 weapon adept level 20
10 size from turning into a gargantuan earth elementalAnd would run Arcane Strike, Power Attack, Celestial Obedience to shape change into said...
Power attack uses flurry BAB when flurrying. So -2 to attack, +4 to damage.
Edit: its been fixed
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+37/+37/+37/+32/+32/+27/+27/+22 (16d8+51/19-20). He would also be rolling 2d20 for each attack roll and keeping the best result
Lormyr,
How did you get the heroism spell-like ability? Ragathiel doesn't give that. Where did that come from?
So every build requires Quingong with Spell-like abilities?Do inquisitors cast spells?
Do non CRB rangers rely on instant enemy?
I agree with your feeling. A core barbarian is nowhere near in power as a invulnerable rager/pouncing dazing barbarian.
The instant enemy is a big boost to ranger combat prowess.
You can not ask the monk to be core while at the same time you allow every power boost the non core material have given to the ranger/paladin/barbarian.
True enough. Quingong has been big for the monk.
Instant enemy is a very nice spell for the ranger, though they were tough prior.
The barbarian was made amazing with the APG.
The Agile Enhancement makes all the difference for reducing the MAD problem with the monk and a few other classes. That was a nice to learn about.
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Lormyr,
How did you get the heroism spell-like ability? Ragathiel doesn't give that. Where did that come from?
On which build?
The equipped Dex/AC build worships Jaidz, and has heroism.
The equipped Str build has no celestial obedience at all at your request.
The no equipment halfling build worships Aqueous and has no heroism at all.
Lormyr,
Ah. Jaidz. I thought you said you worshipped Ragathiel.
I looked at that gargantuan elemental ability. Would be interesting if you had room to maneuver.
Not sure why you took Jaidz for heroism. Seems you could get it as a party buff. I imagine you don't like to ask for it.
I looked over your build again and your explanation. I think I could build a two-hander fighter to give you a run for your money as long as they started head to head in melee range. No time to buff prior. You have to buff while fighting.
Takes you quite a few rounds to get going:
1 round: take out staff of minor arcana and use UMD to activate it.
1 round to cast barkskin.
Swift action to get into Crane. No FD while you are readying your spells because it only works if you attack and it is a standard action t use Total Defense. No casting while using a standard action.
Your AC would be substantially lower at initially. If you cast barkskin and swift action Ki point for dodge, you get a +4 dodge bonus and a +5 natural armor to 70. If you spent your swift action on ki, you wouldn't be using Crane Style. So you might opt for that first to avoid the first hit.
Has it been stated whether a Crane Style works against Sunder Attempts? A two-hander half-orc is sunder machine.
I was also thinking of a Mobility Fighter that could feint. But that would be far too specific to your build. He could feint as a move action and get a full attack. With Lunge I could do this at 10 feet so you were only gettting one attack a round.
The nice thing is you only have a 174 hit points. A single crit kills your character. I imagine that is why you have the jingasa of the fortunate soldier.
I might build him up to take a run for fun. Your build isn't nearly as whacky as I thought it was now that I take a closer look. He's basically a dex-based, defensive fighter with some nice special abilities. It takes him a few rounds to get fully buffed up. I imagine within a party it is easy to get buffs.
The buffed up two-handed fighter would do a ton more damage than your monk. You're definitely hard to hit. I looked at those pauldrons of the juggernaut. Those would be awesome for a two-hander fighter. He murders stuff with single hits. Deadly Juggernaut would build up quickly for him.
I was looking at one of the Demonic Obedience that gives him giant form 1. That would be awesome as well. Though fitting in Orc Bloodline from the sorcerer might be better. A +6 inherent bonus to Strength and giant form useable in minute increments would be even better.
I'm going to play around with some builds and then maybe we duke this out for fun. Gladiator-style close up and each person unbuffed to start. Maybe you make lvl 20 by the time I get this guy done up.
The only 20 character I have right now is a Life Oracle. She's extremely hard to kill and a healer without equal. She wouldn't be too good in combat.
I still enjoyed the discussion. I'm not as down on the monk as Dabbler. I do think the class could use some offense upgrades, mostly involving to hit rolls. If a monk could use a Ki Point the same way a Magus uses an Arcane Pool Point to boost their attack for a 1 round, I think you could call the monk fixed. Their offense is fine against in minion level fights. It's those BBEG fights that cause them problems when the AC and DR is super high. I'm not talking about just lvl 20, I mean throughout their adventuring career. A round or two of boosting their attack would make them more viable in BBEG fights. Land a few more attacks to do some respectable damage.
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Lormyr, stuff
Whoops, maybe the unequipped halfling was Ragathiel. Either way it doesnt matter, all I used was the magic vestment on him, and both Aqueous and Ragathiel give that.
I took heroism for self-reliance. It shored up his mediocre attack bonus, and made his saves and skills even higher. There were strong options, but I liked the versatility of the heroisms as well as the flavour of the God. He is the wise mystic sort, so helping others to overcome their fears was a fun role-play point.
Something you need to be aware of is that barkskin is on all the time. 1 ki = 3 hours and 20 minutes of it, reusable at will. Shield is definitely situational, though.
There is also no "taking out" the staff. Staff in one hand, rod in other hand, knees, elbows, kicks, and headbutts for unarmed attacks.
Even if they started totally without any effects active and head to head, he is neither arrogant, nor a fool.
Round 1: abundant step away. move action stealth to hide.
Proceeding rounds: barkskin, greater heroism, shield.
Then he comes back and asks if you are determined to see this course through.
Crane wing can deflect any melee attack or combat maneuver that requires an attack roll. His CMD is still very difficult to hit anyhow.
Feint would work well, as would attacking him in his sleep. In a straight up fight though, it's a daunting prospect.
Also the 174 hp is for the PFS version of the character. The non-PFS version is 20th level with 263 hp. I gave up a little power on him for skill versatility and role-play, which is important to PFS games. But yes, the jingasa was for AC and help avoid taking a critical splat.
Sadly the PFS version is cannot get to 20. I have exhausted everything I can run with him. I was not part of PFS early enough to capitalize on the specials I would have had too in order to reach 20.
Edit: I still haven't picked PFS version's 19th level feat either. I am torn between Arcane Strike or Additional Traits to get fate's favored for +1 to AC, saves, and skill + one other trait.
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Haha, it just occurred to me that a tetori monk version of the pure damage build above could use pinning knockout in his pin grapples to do 32d8+102/19-20 non-lethal damage per grapple check and/or constrict. That is hilarious.
I am now picturing a gargantuan earth elemental sumo wrestler!
Dabbler,
I still believe his main issue is damage. The other mechanics are fine.
A monk is not a rogue. His primary job should not be slinking around. He's a hand to hand combatant. He should be good at dealing damage in hand to hand combat. Yet he is comparable to other martial classes.
I agree, but it's not damage that hurts the monk, it's accuracy, and this is a result of the limitations of MAD and enhancement. That's what needs fixing.
I agree that a monk, using the CRB only, is mechanically weak. At this stage of product though, why any group would play Core only is not something I can understand. Breaking past core, monks are great. To each their own though, far be it from me to judge other's gaming.
I wouldn't, but few of the archetypes fix the monk's abilities, and most resolve them by making him basically not a monk. The qingong allows you to avoid some of the monk's weaknesses, but his main ones - MAD and poor enhancement - aren't addressed at all. Anywhere.
The strong jaw on the Str monk only came into play because Raith mentioned party buffs in his opposition. He included haste as his party buff, so I choose strong jaw in response.
Yeah, but how likely is that? Everybody casts haste in combat if they can. I haven't seen anyone blanket a party in strong jaw yet. Again, it's "legal" but not a solution available to everybody, and therefore not really an answer to the monk's problems.
I feel I am pretty good at building magic items or no. Check out the absolutely zero gear monk, and you will see that he would still be a nightmare for a fighter to battle if the fighter also had no gear other than common weapons and armor.
I don't doubt your ability to build a class, but what's now being tested is your ability with the weakest class in the book vs somebody else's ability with the third-weakest class in the book. The fact that you need this much system mastery really reinforces the point that the monk is fundamentally a weak class.
I still enjoyed the discussion. I'm not as down on the monk as Dabbler. I do think the class could use some offense upgrades, mostly involving to hit rolls. If a monk could use a Ki Point the same way a Magus uses an Arcane Pool Point to boost their attack for a 1 round, I think you could call the monk fixed. Their offense is fine against in minion level fights. It's those BBEG fights that cause them problems when the AC and DR is super high. I'm not talking about just lvl 20, I mean throughout their adventuring career. A round or two of boosting their attack would make them more viable in BBEG fights. Land a few more attacks to do some respectable damage.
Down on the monk? I assure you I still play them - and we are on the same page, trust me. It's the monk's accuracy and ability to bypass DR that needs to improve, IMHO.
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I wouldn't, but few of the archetypes fix the monk's abilities, and most resolve them by making him basically not a monk. The qingong allows you to avoid some of the monk's weaknesses, but his main ones - MAD and poor enhancement - aren't addressed at all. Anywhere.
MAD is not well addressed by archetypes, but it is by a magic items.
Agile - from Pathfinder Society Field Guide
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Price +1 bonus
Description
Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons. The agile weapon enhancement can only be placed on melee weapons that are usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.
Construction Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, cat’s grace
Guided Weapon - Crimson Throne Adventure path 10, history of ashes
Aura moderate evocation; CL 7th
Slot weapon quality; Price +1 bonus
Description
A weapon with the guided property allows its wielder to use his instinct when striking blows with it. Attacks from a guided weapon generally don’t strike hard, but they strike at precisely the right moment to maximize damage if in the hands of a particularly wise wielder. A character who attacks with a guided weapon modifies his attack rolls and weapon damage rolls with his Wisdom modifier, not his Strength modifier.
This modifier to damage is not adjusted for two-handed weapons or off-hand weapons—it always remains equal to the wielder’s Wisdom modifier. A guided weapon may be wielded as a normal weapon, using Strength to modify attack and damage rolls, but this goes against the weapon’s nature and imparts a –2 penalty on all attack rolls made in this manner.
Construction Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, spiritual weapon
Is this ideal? Not really. But it does certainly present perfectly legal means to fix the problem. If GM's choose not to allow such material, that is their purview - but they certainly shouldn't complain about monks being too MAD when they deny such options.
Yeah, but how likely is that? Everybody casts haste in combat if they can. I haven't seen anyone blanket a party in strong jaw yet. Again, it's "legal" but not a solution available to everybody, and therefore not really an answer to the monk's problems.
It is exactly as likely as you prepare for in the building of your monk, balanced by your GM's discretion. If your GM does not object to scrolls being available, they are not hard to cast with preparation towards that end after level 10.
I don't doubt your ability to build a class, but what's now being tested is your ability with the weakest class in the book vs somebody else's ability with the third-weakest class in the book. The fact that you need this much system mastery really reinforces the point that the monk is fundamentally a weak class.
A fair enough view.
Full spellcasters are in a realm of their own compared to non-full spellcasters, but there is definitely a gap between the pure melee's an hybrids at their core.
The issue is that when one encompasses all of the game, and not just certain pieces of it, those gaps are significantly reduced.
You can drop it as a standard action, which means you can't attack.You can leave it down.
You can leave your hat on.
If you really want to remove system mastery and look at a more mid-level comparison you can look at these two builds and compare them directly.
These are definitely not optimized, but I have actually seen some of my players, who have very little system mastery, come up with characters of a similar power level. Only on these message boards do I see rampaging barbarians that can do several hundred damage in one hit.
Monk:
AC 28, touch 23, flat-footed 24 (+5 armor, +2 deflection, +3 Dex, +1 dodge, +4 monk, +3 Wis)
hp 93 (12d8+36)
Fort +13, Ref +14, Will +14; +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities improved evasion; Immune disease, poison
Fighter:
AC 29, touch 17, flat-footed 24 (+9 armor, +2 deflection, +4 Dex, +1 dodge, +2 natural, +1 shield)
hp 130 (12d10+60)
Fort +14, Ref +11, Will +7; +3 vs. fear
Defensive Abilities bravery +3, 25% chance to negate critical hits and sneak attacks
Monk:
flurry of blows +15/+15/+10/+10/+5 (2d8+5 plus 1d6 electricity) (plus Stunning Fist)
+3 temple sword +17/+17/+12/+12/+7 (1d8+7/19–20)
+1 shuriken +14/+14/+9/+9/+4 (1d2+5)
Fighter:
+2 keen longsword +21/+16/+11 (1d8+13/17–20) and +2 short sword +18/+13 (1d6+8/19–20) (plus Rend)
+1 shortbow +17/+12/+7 (1d6+1/×3)
Monk:
unarmed strike +14 (2d8+5 plus 1d6 electricity) (plus Scorpion Style or Stunning Fist)
+3 temple sword +16 (1d8+7/19–20)
Fighter:
+2 keen longsword +23 (2d8+13/17–20)
Monk:
CMB +16 (+18 grapple, +20 trip); CMD 36 (38 vs. grapple, 40 vs. trip)
Fighter:
CMB +17; CMD 34
So the fighter has more AC, more hit points, and higher bonus to hit and slightly more damage.
The Monk has better saves and immunities, better movement, slightly better skills, better combat maneuvers and combat maneuver defense and can inflict more conditions.
From that it might sound like the monk has more going for him, but he is going to have trouble trying to land any of his attacks that apply conditions and his better combat maneuvers still aren't good enough to be any kind of threat to a CR equivalent monster. His slightly better skills still leaves him far behind a true skill monkey. All he really does is move faster and have better saves. :-(
OK, I think this guy could kill the monk with the 71 AC.
It might not seem like it at first, but there's a method to the madness. Sunder works on any items the monk is wearing or carrying. The CMB for sunder on this guy is +59. The CMD against sunder on the monk is only 61. Thus every first sunder attempt which isn't a 1 hits. A number of the iteratives should land as well. Most of the equipment is wondrous magic items which are pretty frail. In addition, he has shatterspell, so he can dismantle buff spells as well. With his AC of 53, the highest of the monk's attacks only hit on an 18+. His saves are pretty damned high (especially counting in steel soul). He is a bit mobility challenged, but if it is a 'stand still and beat on each other' type game, I think he wins.
Sunder Fighter
Dwarf Fighter 20
N Medium Humanoid (dwarf)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +28
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Defense
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AC 53, touch 24, flat-footed 45 (+15 armor, +8 shield, +7 Dex, +6 natural, +5 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 284 (20d10+160)
Fort +25, Ref +18, Will +17 (+5 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons, +2 vs. poison, +4 vs. spells and spell-like abilities
Defensive Abilities bravery +5, defensive training; DR 5/—
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee +5 Dueling Adamantine Scimitar +43/+38/+33/+28 (1d6+25/15-20/x2)
Special Attacks hatred, weapon training abilities (heavy blades +6, bows +5, close +3, flails +4)
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Statistics
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Str 30, Dex 24, Con 26, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 5
Base Atk +20; CMB +32 (+36 Sundering); CMD 55 (75 vs. Bull Rush, 59 vs. Disarm, 61 vs. Sunder, 75 vs. Trip)
Feats Critical Focus, Disruptive, Dodge, Furious Focus, Greater Shield Focus, Greater Sunder, Greater Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Greater Weapon Specialization (Scimitar), Improved Critical (Scimitar), Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Ironhide, Lunge, Power Attack -6/+12, Shatterspell (3/day), Shield Focus, Spellbreaker, Steel Soul, Step Up, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)
Traits Defender of the Society, Observant (Perception)
Skills Acrobatics +7 (+3 jump), Appraise +2 (+4 to determine the price of nonmagic items with precious metals or gemstones), Climb +18, Craft (stonemasonry) +5, Handle Animal +3, Intimidate +1, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +25, Knowledge (engineering) +18, Perception +28 (+30 to notice unusual stonework, such as traps and hidden doors in stone walls or floors), Profession (miner) +12, Survival +14 (+16 to avoid becoming lost), Swim +17
Languages Common, Dwarven, Terran, Undercommon
SQ ghost touch, greed, hardy, slow and steady, stability, stonecunning +2, weapon mastery (heavy pick)
Other Gear +5 Mithral Full plate, +5 Ghost touch Buckler, +5 Dueling Adamantine Scimitar, Amulet of natural armor +5, Belt of physical perfection +6, Cloak of resistance +5, Gloves of dueling, Handy haversack (1 @ 673.6 lbs), Headband of inspired wisdom +6, Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Manual of bodily health +4, Manual of gainful exercise +4, Manual of quickness of action +4, Ring of evasion, Ring of protection +5, Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), Winged boots (3/day), 33680 GP
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Special Abilities
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Bravery +5 (Ex) +5 to Will save vs. Fear
Critical Focus +4 to confirm critical hits.
Damage Reduction (5/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Defender of the Society +1 trait bonus to Armor Class when wearing medium or heavy armor.
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs monsters of the Giant subtype.
Disruptive +4 DC to cast defensively for those you threaten.
Ghost touch Enhancement and armor bonus count against incorporeal creatures.
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Greater Sunder When destroying an item, extra damage is transferred to the wielder.
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Hardy +2 Poison/+4 Spells or Spell-like Effects Gain a racial bonus to saves vs Poison, Spells and Spell-Like effects.
Hatred +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs Goblinoids/Orcs.
Improved Sunder You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when sundering.
Ironhide Your skin is thicker and more resilient than that of most of your people.
Prerequisites: Con 13; dwarf, half-orc, or orc.
Benefit: You gain a +1 natural armor bonus due to your unusually tough hide.
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC for 1 rd.
Power Attack -6/+12 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Ring of evasion No damage if you succeed on a Reflex save for half damage.
Shatterspell (3/day) Sunder ongoing spell effect like spell sunder rage power.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Spellbreaker If an enemy you threaten fails to cast defensively, they provoke an AoO from you.
Stability +4 Gain bonus to CMD vs bull rush/trip while standing on ground.
Steel Soul Hardy's save vs. spells and spell-like abilities becomes +4
Step Up When a foe makes a 5 ft step away from you, you can move 5 ft to follow them.
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs unusual stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone. An ioun stone slotted in this manner grants you its normal benefits (as if it were orbiting your head), but frequently reveals entirely new powers due to the magic of the wayfinder itself (see Seeker of Secrets page 51).
Note: This item costs only 250gp for members of the Pathfinder Society
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, light; Cost 250 gp
Weapon Mastery (Heavy pick) (Ex) Chosen weapon has an improved critical multiplier, always confirms criticals, and cannot be disarmed.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +6 (Ex) +6 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Bows) +5 (Ex) +5 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
Weapon Training (Close) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Close-in weapons
Weapon Training (Flails) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Flails
Winged boots (3/day) Fly as spell for up to 5 minutes. +4 to fly checks.
I stand flatly baffled by the magic item selection of that monk...
Could you further explain what you mean by this? At a glance, that is the most generic item selection I've ever seen for a Core monk.
He has a temple sword, a Bracer's of Armor, an Amulet of Mighty Fists, a belt, a headband, a Monk's Robe, a Cloak of Resistance, and Ring of Protection.
That's the most standard fare thing I've ever seen. I suppose you could question the shurikens, or how much of a bonus goes into each item, but I'm still curious what your expectations are.
Why would he have both an amulet of mighty fists and a temple sword? That seems redundant. Yes it is +3 so it does silver and cold iron, but then again so does a monk's fists by that level.
If you really want to remove system mastery and look at a more mid-level comparison you can look at these two builds and compare them directly.
These are definitely not optimized, but I have actually seen some of my players, who have very little system mastery, come up with characters of a similar power level. Only on these message boards do I see rampaging barbarians that can do several hundred damage in one hit.
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So the fighter has more AC, more hit points, and...
How did Sajan get Greater Trip? He doesn't meet the prerequisites and it is not a monk bonus feat.
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OK, I think this guy could kill the monk with the 71 AC.
Reading this as I rush out the door, but at first glance that's a very solid build to that purpose, drbuzzard. One thing you have overlooked is that the monk's CMD can reach 74, however.
59 base
6 dodge (fighting defensively)
5 dodge (Combat Expertise)
4 dodge (Ki)
Will look the build over further tomorrow morning and comment further. Clever strategy though!
I'm not sure arena-style duels really prove anything when it comes to D&D class comparisons. If we want to compare combat effectiveness, we should be comparing them against each other in a team setting against a typical D&D foe, since 99.99999% of the time, that's where and how they'd compete.
Raith did a great mock combat which pitted a ranger against a magus to compare their relative strengths. He and another poster did it by depositing the ranger into an actual combat encounter Raith had DM'd (the ranger replaced the damage-dealing paladin in his actual group) and they played out the encounter with Raith supplying the rest of the party's actions, and the other poster making the decisions for the ranger, which he had built.
The results were highly informative. Really, I think it's the only way to get a decently useful comparison between classes, as that's the scenario we see them in, in actual play.
Reading this as I rush out the door, but at first glance that's a very solid build to that purpose, drbuzzard. One thing you have overlooked is that the monk's CMD can reach 74, however.59 base
6 dodge (fighting defensively)
5 dodge (Combat Expertise)
4 dodge (Ki)Will look the build over further tomorrow morning and comment further. Clever strategy though!
That would certainly make it harder. However with his bonus he still sunders on a 15. It would take a while, but eventually I think the fighter could win the endurance race (and it would be about attrition).
dr. buzzard,
Greater Sunder only works for weapons, armor, and shields, not items for damage transferring through, not items.
You could get your Sunder much higher with items and traits. Too bad you're not a half-orc.
If you take Celestial Obedience there is an Empyreal Lord that gives you mind blank which allows you to turn invisible without see invisibility allowing you to be seen, negating the ability to use Crane Style deflection, though the Blind-Fight feat allows the retention of dodge bonuses to AC. You can also obtain some dust of disappearance to do the same thing.
There is a mask that allows you take Giant Form 2 granting regeneration, strength boost, and reach. I believe there is a mantle that allows you to cast greater heroism.
I've been researching an absolutely sick two-hander build that gets to hammer while invisible, in giant form, while flying. Pretty nasty. That Celestial/Demonic Obedience is really a helpful feat.
dr. buzzard,
Greater Sunder only works for weapons, armor, and shields, not items for damage transferring through, not items.
Yes, greater sunder only does that. However I don't much care. As long as he can peel the monk like an onion, getting rid of his magic items, eventually the AC will be lowered enough to beat him down. That's why it would be a long, long combat. If the dwarf starts with an item that grants to hit, he can make himself comparatively untouchable and then it looks really bad for the monk. Say you pop the belt, then AC, CMD, to hit, and damage all drop for the monk.
I also can't really do half-orc since I'd give up shatterspell, which is really a great ability.
You do have some great ideas though. I'm just not quite as familiar with all the magic items out there.
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I stand flatly baffled by the magic item selection of that monk...Could you further explain what you mean by this? At a glance, that is the most generic item selection I've ever seen for a Core monk.
He has a temple sword, a Bracer's of Armor, an Amulet of Mighty Fists, a belt, a headband, a Monk's Robe, a Cloak of Resistance, and Ring of Protection.
That's the most standard fare thing I've ever seen. I suppose you could question the shurikens, or how much of a bonus goes into each item, but I'm still curious what your expectations are.
I mean that neither the items he chose nor the pluses he put on them were good selections overall.
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I am somewhat shocked lormyrs monk doesn't have true strike to disarm that nasty dwarf. That said I think I'd bet on the monk in the attrition war because he wouldn't stand face to face while being sundered.
He doesn't need it from Qinggong monk since he can use his Use Magic Device to employ a wand to the exact same effect. Maybe I will slip one into his stash with what remains of his money or prestige points.
Most 20th level fighters cannot be disarmed either, unless they have swapped out their 20th level ability from an archetype.
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drbuzzard,
I like the build. So far, this is the best toe to toe chance I've seen from a build. I am missing where 2 points of your sunder power comes from though, if you could enlighten me to what I have missed:
20 bab
10 str
4 sunder feats
2 weapon focus feats
6 weapon training
10 dueling enhancement
5 weapon enhancement
The monk's strategy against such an opponent would be as follows:
Round 1: swift action = enter crane stance, full round action = move 250 feet away; crane wing attack of opportunity from movement if necessary.
Round 2: blood crow strike you with a full attack from 290 feet away.
Following rounds: move to maintain distance as necessary, blood crow strike the following round
At that distance he would continue to fight defensively, but would drop combat expertise. With haste boots and his bane baldric active, his attack routine would be:
Melee unarmed strike +43/+43/+43/+38/+38/+33/+33/+28 (2d10+2d6+19/19-20 x2) with Flurry of Blows
So slightly better odds of the first few attacks connecting while the haste and bane baldric lasted.
Toe to toe, you might wear him down by shattering his items. Thankfully his mobility so far outstrips that he has much more intelligent strategy available.
Additionally, only his first attack would be able to hit on less than a natural 20. Combat maneuvers suffer all penalties to attack rolls the user presently is under, including but not limited to the -5 attack bonus loss from iterative attacks.
Overall though, it's an effective build. It could be further enhanced by some of Raith's suggestions as well.
drbuzzard,
I like the build. So far, this is the best toe to toe chance I've seen from a build. I am missing where 2 points of your sunder power comes from though, if you could enlighten me to what I have missed:
Dusty Rose Prism ioun stone inside a wayfinder gives +2 to CMB and CMD.
But yes, I would easily lose on mobility. That's the real weakness of the build. I can't get around the battlefield all that fast (fly would help a bit, but it not a sufficient panacea).
I suppose I could try throwing in some or Rath's suggestions, but I'm not overly motivated. I had most of that build sitting around already since it was an extension of an already existing PFS build I am using (I did swap in a scimitar for pick, but that is a small change).
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Ah, there we go! I have no idea how that skipped my attention since I do the same thing lol.
It also just occurred to me that I failed to calculate his AC/CMD and to hit/CMB with Combat Expertise based on BAB of 20 while flurrying. So his AC/CMD should be +2 higher and attack rolls/CMB -2 lower. That is not to his advantage in this particular instance tough.
Man, that build would work over PFS baddies too. Probably a fun one to play in that setting.
So far he's only 8th, but he's pretty effective. Haven't started on the disruptive chain yet. I'm sitting on an AC of 36 already, and it does tend to vex DMs. If my d20 didn't act like a d5 when rolling saving throws I'd be even better.
I wouldn't, but few of the archetypes fix the monk's abilities, and most resolve them by making him basically not a monk. The qingong allows you to avoid some of the monk's weaknesses, but his main ones - MAD and poor enhancement - aren't addressed at all. Anywhere.MAD is not well addressed by archetypes, but it is by a magic items.
Agile - from Pathfinder Society Field Guide
Guided Weapon - Crimson Throne Adventure path 10, history of ashes
Is this ideal? Not really. But it does certainly present perfectly legal means to fix the problem. If GM's choose not to allow such material, that is their purview - but they certainly shouldn't complain about monks being too MAD when they deny such options.
It presents the best options, but there are two problems:
1) You suck until you can afford the properties2) They limit your AoMF down to +4 in total properties and enhancement combined - and that means never getting to +5 and bypassing most forms of DR you are likely to encounter at higher levels. And it also docks you a permanent +1 to hit, penalising you still further.
Magic items are not a solution, really, they are exchanging one set of problems for another set of problems.
Yeah, but how likely is that? Everybody casts haste in combat if they can. I haven't seen anyone blanket a party in strong jaw yet. Again, it's "legal" but not a solution available to everybody, and therefore not really an answer to the monk's problems.It is exactly as likely as you prepare for in the building of your monk, balanced by your GM's discretion. If your GM does not object to scrolls being available, they are not hard to cast with preparation towards that end after level 10.
It's perfectly reasonably provided you assume that your character should be dictating the rest of the party's tactics and play style, yes. Otherwise, it isn't.
Who's paying for the scrolls? If you insist on them then it's your character, did you factor in that in your character's wealth? Who's taking time out to cast from them? If you do not have a druid or ranger (not unlikely), then it has to be somebody with Use Magic Device, so there is a chance of failure, costing you yet more.
Basically, you are relying on the right buffs to make your character works. While the game is a social game, I don't think it's reasonable to just assume that the rest of the party will automatically organise to make your character work. Character's should work in isolation - my fighter did - and combine to make a party without presumptions. Buffs and assists from other PCs is a bonus. What if your arcane caster is a magus who likes to be in the thick of the action? What if your divine caster is an oracle who decides that they are a divination expert? These options can work well for a party, but don't include the facility to make up for a monk's short-comings.
The issue is that when one encompasses all of the game, and not just certain pieces of it, those gaps are significantly reduced.
Er, no, the issue is they MIGHT be, and then again they might not be. It's not something you can always assume, and that's why every class should be able to stand and function alone, at least in what it is meant to do. I've played a PFS game where the party consisted of a paladin, a ranger, a fighter, and a monk (I was the monk, BTW); no buffers there save the potions we had. Then I've run a game where every caster buffed, and been in one where none of them did.
Some spells and abilities are common, and can be used to resolve situations fairly reliably, and others aren't. Some you'd think were acceptable to assume, and sometimes you'd be surprised.
And that's all before we consider what happens when the foe throws in some de-buffs...
I stand flatly baffled by the magic item selection of that monk...
You mean he didn't have a bunch of incredibly rare and unusual items? Yeah, that's because rare and unusual items are...rare and unusual? Different DMs run items differently. With some old-school, you get what you find and a few for sale if you are lucky. Others have branches of Magic Mart (TM) in every village. That's why items are a poor fix.
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It presents the best options, but there are two problems:
I did say it wasn't ideal. But it does work things out much better than requiring Str in your build as well.
It's perfectly reasonably provided you assume that your character should be dictating the rest of the party's tactics and play style, yes. Otherwise, it isn't.
No need to put words into my mouth. It is not reasonable to expect your party members to expend their own resources on your character, nor did I say anything that could in any reasonable way be taken as such.
Yes, scrolls and/or a wand of strong jaw can be costly. A wand of lead blades is considerably more affordable at 750 gp, very easy to use at UMD DC 20, and still increases your unarmed die by one step.
Perfect solution? Nope. But it gets the job done.
You mean he didn't have a bunch of incredibly rare and unusual items? Yeah, that's because rare and unusual items are...rare and unusual?
You misunderstand my meaning. Let's examine what he has:
elixir of fire breath - 1.1k
potion of bear's endurance - .3k
2 potions of cure serious wounds - 1.5k
potion of fly - .75k
+3 temple sword - 18.33k
50 +1 shuriken - 2.35k
belt of giant strength +2 - 4k
bracers of armor +5 - 25k
cloak of resistance +3 - 9k
headband of wisdom +2 - 4k
monk's robe - 13k
ring of protection +2 - 8k
+1 shock amulet of mighty fists - 16k
About 104k in gear. A better selection of items for him would have been:
+2 amulet of mighty fists
belt of giant strength +4
bracers of armor +4
cloak of resistance +3
headband of wisdom +2
deep red sphere ioun stone
dusty rose prism ioun stone
jingasa of the fortunate soldier
monk's robe
ring of protection +2
about 4k left for expendables
My version of item selection nets that monk +2 to hit, +2 to damage, +2 AC, +1 reflex save, +1 initiative. He loses the shock damage, which has questionable value vs. standard monster resistances at 12th level anyhow. The only item chosen on that list that isn't straight out of the CRB is the jingasa.
So "incredibly rare and unsual"? Not so much. More wisely chosen? Yeah.
Sajan doesn't even have a legal build...
He has greater trip without meeting the prereqs and it's not a monk bonus feat.
It presents the best options, but there are two problems:I did say it wasn't ideal. But it does work things out much better than requiring Str in your build as well.
I agree, it's the better of two bad options. That does not make it a good option, though.
It's perfectly reasonably provided you assume that your character should be dictating the rest of the party's tactics and play style, yes. Otherwise, it isn't.No need to put words into my mouth. It is not reasonable to expect your party members to expend their own resources on your character, nor did I say anything that could in any reasonable way be taken as such.
I was under the impression that you were assuming certain buffs would always be available, and that's the only way you can guarantee this. It's not like the monk is able to self-buff, is it?
Yes, scrolls and/or a wand of strong jaw can be costly. A wand of lead blades is considerably more affordable at 750 gp, very easy to use at UMD DC 20, and still increases your unarmed die by one step.
Perfect solution? Nope. But it gets the job done.
Relatively speaking, you are better off, it's true. That's a long way from well off, though, which is where most others are functioning without needing special favours. In order to get the buffs you need you still need somebody to do what you cannot, and that's assuming that anybody in the party can do that at all (I've played characters in parties that couldn't).
The fact that you need to "fix" the class with magic items and buffs is not proof the monk doesn't need fixing, it's the opposite because it shows the monk DOES need special treatment to work properly. It also means that if you are playing in a game where the DM feels you should make do with whatever items you find, isn't prepared to give you time to craft your own items, and where your party doesn't have a typical composition...you are basically up the creek without a paddle.
So I still maintain, the monk still needs fixing.
You mean he didn't have a bunch of incredibly rare and unusual items? Yeah, that's because rare and unusual items are...rare and unusual?You misunderstand my meaning. Let's examine what he has:
That all assumes that you get that much choice. Sure you do in theory-crafting, but most adventures, you get what you can find, you sell it if you can't use it which means you get half the value of what you found. For example, Sajan's probably got a +1 shocking amulet because it's what he found on a monster. He's got a +3 temple sword because it's the best (relatively) common weapon he could get at the time. Doesn't mean he didn't want your choices, it's just you do not always get what you want in a real game.
Can we stop talking about Sajan and friends? They don't even have legal builds.
The main critique as well is comparing the monk throughout his levels. Not just at lvl 20 with ideal magic items, the Celestial Obedience feat (which doesn't even give anything until lvl 12), and a +4 agile amulet of mighty fists.
How did Lormyr's monk fare the first five levels? The first ten? The first fifteen? When did he come into his own? That's what I'd like to know.
The two-hander fighter comes out of the gate squashing face and is still squashing face at 20.
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I was under the impression that you were assuming certain buffs would always be available, and that's the only way you can guarantee this. It's not like the monk is able to self-buff, is it?
In fairness, you really should actually review the build before making blind assumptions man.
barkskin = at will for 1 ki from archetype
see invisibility = 1/day from aasimar variant
greater heroism = 3/day from feat
shield = 10 charges of 8 mins each from staff of minor arcana
lead blades = cast from wand, stored in cracked vibrant purple ioun stone
So yes, it is in fact like the monk is able to self-buff.