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Might I suggest This?
It's not ideal, but for a no items, no class splashing it is about the best that can be done.
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Might I suggest This?
It's not ideal, but for a no items, no class splashing it is about the best that can be done.
That works for this purpose. Thanks for that.
Goblin Fighter (Two Handed) 20; CE
Small Humanoid (goblin)
Init +7, Senses Perception +20
DEFENSE
AC 19 (+1 size, +3 Dex) [definately needs equipment, can be boosted to 29 with combat expertise and fighting defensively]
hp 154 (20d10+40)
Fort +13, Ref +9, Will +8
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
+32/+27/+22/+17 1d6+20 (19-20, x5)
With Power Attack
+32/+21/+16/+11 1d6+44
Devastating Blow with Power Attack
+27 5d6+220
Devastating Blow with Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Fighting Defensively
+19 5d6+220
STATISTICS
Str 20, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 5
Base Atk +20; CMB +24 CMD 38
Feats:
Armor Proficiency, Heavy, Armor Proficiency, Light, Armor Proficiency, Medium, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Crane Style, Dodge, Hellcat Stealth, Furious Focus, Greater Weapon Focus (Scythe), Greater Weapon Specialization (Scythe), Improved Critical (Scythe), Improved Initiative, Lunge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Pin Down, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Shield Proficiency, Simple Weapon Proficiency, Skill Focus (Stealth), Stand Still, Stealthy, Tower Shield Proficiency, Weapon Focus (Scythe), Weapon Specialization (Scythe)
Skills:
Acrobatics: 10; Appraise: 2; Bluff: -3; Climb: 10; Craft (Untrained): 2; Diplomacy: -3; Disguise: -3; Escape Artist: 3; Fly: 3; Heal: 0; Intimidate: -3; Perception: 20; Perform (Untrained): -3; Ride: 9; Sense Motive: 20; Stealth: 44; Survival: 8; Survival (Follow or identify tracks/Underground): 0; Swim: 7;
Weapon Training:
+5 Two Handed Weapon
Traits
Color Thief, <second trait pending>
Combat Gear Scythe, chain shirt
Other gear: 100 pounds of dog jerky
All feat choices are from the hardcover books except for Hellcat Stealth.
The idea is to stealth with Hellcat Stealth (I was going to do something cheesy with quick draw tower shields, set, then stealth, but this is better). If we keep in mind range penalties, its not that hard to make the first stealth check at +34. If its at night time, this becomes a +44 stealth. If next to an enemy, you can Devastating Strike them for 5d6+220, then move away and stealth. If afraid of retaliation, do it with lunge. If not next to an enemy, you can move next to them and devastating strike.
With gear the stealth score becomes extremely high, allowing you to sneak up to the balor and do ridiculous damage to it, followed by a full attack next round.
With the right feats I can probably add another ~4 damage through arcane strike and another 4 damage through Death or Glory (which translates to 40 damage on Devastating Blow), but, like traits, too many feats to go through. You get the general idea though, have lots of room for optimization.
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Hah, that is a hilarious build. Opening combat up by sneaking up (which would be very likely to succeed) would catch him flat-footed, down half his AC, and unable to crane wing, leading to a very wrecked face for our good monk. Well played, sir!
My only criticism is that for this tactic to work it assumes you get the drop on him, as once surprise rounds are over attacking from concealment very oddly gives no real benefit in Pathfinder. Either way, it's a fun build, and would work well to it's purpose.
As far as more traditional upfront battle with no magic/special equipment, how would you feel against a fighter's prospects of victory? I still firmly believe the 54 or 55 AC + crane wing and swift cold ice strikes to the dome would prove too difficult for a fighter to overcome.
You can also replace crane style, dodge, combat reflexes with improve feint, skill focus: bluff, and deceitful for a +27 to feinting to make sure your one hit kills land against those with uncanny dodge or the like. Nonchalant thuggery trait will add another +4 to that for +31 to feint.
Hah, that is a hilarious build. Opening combat up by sneaking up (which would be very likely to succeed) would catch him flat-footed, down half his AC, and unable to crane wing, leading to a very wrecked face for our good monk. Well played, sir!
My only criticism is that for this tactic to work it assumes you get the drop on him, as once surprise rounds are over attacking from concealment very oddly gives no real benefit in Pathfinder. Either way, it's a fun build, and would work well to it's purpose.
As far as more traditional upfront battle with no magic/special equipment, how would you feel against a fighter's prospects of victory? I still firmly believe the 54 or 55 AC + crane wing and swift cold ice strikes to the dome would prove too difficult for a fighter to overcome.
A traditional fighter will have to hope for 2 natural 20s to down the monk. You'll need a highly specialized fighter to be able to win (and when it comes highly specialized fighters, they start dropping in a lot of other areas in traditional play). Very defensive build, very annoying to play against.
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Very true. Swapping agile maneuvers and piranha strike for alertness and skill focus (sense motive) would raise your DC to 45 though, making it a bit of a gamble.
My buddy I ran my monk with in PFS had planned to just form a potion of blur habit, use that concealment with stealth, and roll in for the face wrecking. The concept still makes me laugh.
Without magic items/special equipment, how does the AC get that high on the monk?
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A traditional fighter will have to hope for 2 natural 20s to down the monk. You'll need a highly specialized fighter to be able to win (and when it comes highly specialized fighters, they start dropping in a lot of other areas in traditional play). Very defensive build, very annoying to play against.
That is my thought as well. Toss in the Qinggong spell-like abilities, and it's just a daunting prospect.
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Without magic items/special equipment, how does the AC get that high on the monk?
10 base
1 size (halfling) - this doubles against medium + creatures from underfoot alternate racial trait7 Dexterity
2 Wisdom
5 monk
5 natural (barkskin for 3+ hours at the cost of 1 ki from Qinggong monk)
5 armor (magic vestment for 20 hours from celestial obedience feat)
4 insight (class feature of ki mystic archetype)
11 dodge (1 feat, 4 combat expertise, 6 fighting defensively with 3 ranks in acrobatics, crane style feats, and cautious fighter feat)
4 dodge (swift action from ki dodge - very limited uses)
54 AC (55 vs. medium + critters)
That's a scary level of optimization. What's the flurry look like?
A traditional fighter will have to hope for 2 natural 20s to down the monk. You'll need a highly specialized fighter to be able to win (and when it comes highly specialized fighters, they start dropping in a lot of other areas in traditional play). Very defensive build, very annoying to play against.That is my thought as well. Toss in the Qinggong spell-like abilities, and it's just a daunting prospect.
A no magic item build is pretty silly though, fighters are especially hurt when they have no gear to play with. I have to admit it was a fun building exercise.
Have you ever looked at bewildering koan? It up there in brokenness and would make every GM throw the book at you. With Tongue of the Sun and Moon, you can use it to make an angry bee swarm ponder the secrets of the universe.
I have to admit that Without gear Lormyr monk fair much better than expected. Besides Lotion strategy of feint the only other thing that I can think of is a fighter with eldritch heritage and the fey bloodline. Improved invisibility so the monk lose 15 points in dodge AC and 7 in dex. Then a cornugon smashin furious focus power attack with dazing assault +29 (2d4+32 15-20/x3) DC 34 or be dazed.
But no, I do not have a method (besides feint) to reliable hit that monk.
The problem is, and I ran into this too, is that the monk has crane wing. So you need to hit him TWICE. His flat foot of 33 is still pretty hard to beat when you need to activate power attack, and then hit him with the second attack. Though to be fair, that's with the ruling that the monk is aware of the attack and that feint doesn't remove that.
This is too strange for a comparison. Too many variables. I don't allow that level of magic item accumulation in general in our campaigns. I'm fairly certain that a fighter specialist probably has a better knowledge than I do of every single strange magic item that might boost his abilities.
I would much prefer the test be based on class abilities, not strange magic items a player has picked up from scouring every single source out there. Fighter versus Monk should stick to basics. If the monk is only better or equal when he has certain magic items, he's not really equal.
As an example, check out this character Raith Shadar. He is a Hungry Ghost Monk with Crane Style. I will never have access to the magic items your character has. I'm not even sure if my DM would have allowed the Agile Enhancement considering he uses only CRB, APG, UC, and UM. He doesn't use companions or the like.
That is the monk the majority of us have to play with. We don't get to scour every book to pick any magic item we feel like. Nor do we get a ton of boons. If you want to show the monk is fine, use the same rules I have to follow in the majority of my campaigns.
None of the builds posted on this page have any boons whatsoever.
Also, please explain to me how choosing +5 armor, a +5 adamantine weapon, a belt of strength +6, and +5 strength tome for a fighter is any different than a monk using items that benefit his class and build, or any other character doing the same?
You have the naked monk above. Contend with that, and all of your magic item criticism should no longer be of relevance. It's purely feat and archetype selection vs. feat and archetype selection. That's as direct of a class comparison as one can achieve.
It's substandard, uncommon choices focused solely on building up AC.
That monk wouldn't be one people on average would play. How much damage do you do without Agile? Let's say your DM doesn't allow Agile Enhancement? Can you do as well a the fighter in combat?The reason I'm saying the comparison is hard becauase we're not doing PvP. It's player versus the environment. If the creature can ignore you, then he will do so. If the fighter can kill faster than you, then he is more effective.
How often do you PvP versus another character?
Like I have said to you before, make a character straight up that you would play to be effective. The Two-hander figher was a used character before traits and the like. All you're doing is making some dodge guy relying completely on Crane Style, which we all know is the best martial style of the lot to dodge his attacks and wear him down. When that character would not do as well against actual monsters.
The fighter would hit harder, kill faster, and generally destroy the monster. He would do all this without sacrificing the same things you do.
It's ridiculous that you're pulling out feats like Celestial Obedience. Once again, class abilities. Remove Celesital Obedience. Uncommon feat. Tossing in cheese feets because you make all your characters worship an Empyreal Lord is not common.
You really don't have a clue how the rest are playing. Anyone can take Crane Style. So use a different style. Otherwise it take that over and over and over again.
Get rid of the Celestial Obedience.
Quain Martal Artist? Where is that from?
I shouldn't have to spend my time sifting ten books. Always take Crane Style because it's the only style worth a damn. And worship an Empyreal Lord.
Focus on your class abilities. As in what the monk can do. Not I pick halfing to get this racial trait ( not a class ability). I pick Crane Style every time it's the only thing worth taking. We all know Crane Style is extremely powerful. It can be taken by other classes. I'll look at this later.
All your showing is not that the monk is ok, but that if you supplement the monk with strange little racial choices you can build up a guy that can be effective. The focus is on class abilities. That is where you should be focusing on. Not strange combinations of race and feat styles. Crane Style is not class ability. Neither is being a halfing with a certain trait. Neither is Celestial Obedience.
The people complaining about a monk are not doing so because they can't find options to make one effective. They are doing so because the base class has problems. Anyone who sifts enough books can find options to make any character effective. The real issue is what can the base class do when played with very basic options.
At the moment Lormyr has proven that taking Crane Style is a must for every monk. That's about it. I already knew that. Maybe Snake Style would do in a pinch for the pure unarmed guys.
If Crane Style is the primary ability making the monk effective in PvP versus the fighter, then the fighter can take Crane as well. I'll whip up a defensive fighter and see how they compare. Then they can spend hours missing each other.
At the moment Lormyr has proven that taking Crane Style is a must for every monk. That's about it. I already knew that. Maybe Snake Style would do in a pinch for the pure unarmed guys.
If Crane Style is the primary ability making the monk effective in PvP versus the fighter, then the fighter can take Crane as well. I'll whip up a defensive fighter and see how they compare. Then they can spend hours missing each other.
Except the monk also scorching rays for 12d6 damage followed by a swift action cold ice strike for 15d6 damage a round, for around three rounds if my ki calculations is correct. The totals 81d6 damage, assuming no misses or saves of course. That averages to 283.5 damage. After that he's out of juice, unless he has a way of restoring Ki (there's several).
Except the monk also scorching rays for 12d6 damage followed by a swift action cold ice strike for 15d6 damage a round, for around three rounds if my ki calculations is correct. The totals 81d6 damage, assuming no misses or saves of course. That averages to 283.5 damage. After that he's out of juice, unless he has a way of restoring Ki (there's several).At the moment Lormyr has proven that taking Crane Style is a must for every monk. That's about it. I already knew that. Maybe Snake Style would do in a pinch for the pure unarmed guys.
If Crane Style is the primary ability making the monk effective in PvP versus the fighter, then the fighter can take Crane as well. I'll whip up a defensive fighter and see how they compare. Then they can spend hours missing each other.
Quingong is from Ultimate Magic. A fighter does not have comparable options with the inclusion of this book. They threw a bone to monks. That option was not always available and certainly isn't a common martial monk capability. He's far more limited in capability per day using such abilities in the course of an adventure.
The complaint by monk players is their ability as a martial character.
Then he'd find out one of the reasons blaster wizards lose power as they level. Elemental resistance and immunity(especially to fire) aren't common at 20th level. They're damn near ubiquitous. Also unlike the blaster you can't take the elemental feat or use a rod to change energy type. Its a great use of equipment, but you could literally take that same list of equipment only switching out a few items for their fighter equivalents who fights with a bashing shield can use all of those things just as easily getting an AC that is within a few of yours either way. He's also be doing more damage and while his saves wouldn't be as immaculate, they'd be good enough and he could be buffed, but you wont see it because that build is so focused on defense and the fighter knows that a dead enemy can't hit you either.Except the monk also scorching rays for 12d6 damage followed by a swift action cold ice strike for 15d6 damage a round, for around three rounds if my ki calculations is correct. The totals 81d6 damage, assuming no misses or saves of course. That averages to 283.5 damage. After that he's out of juice, unless he has a way of restoring Ki (there's several).At the moment Lormyr has proven that taking Crane Style is a must for every monk. That's about it. I already knew that. Maybe Snake Style would do in a pinch for the pure unarmed guys.
If Crane Style is the primary ability making the monk effective in PvP versus the fighter, then the fighter can take Crane as well. I'll whip up a defensive fighter and see how they compare. Then they can spend hours missing each other.
But this was a discussion of a 1v1 fight between the monk and the fighter, no? You might have missed it, but someone issued that challenge of a no gear 1v1 fight. Now, that really isn't indicative of anything powerwise, and you would be silly to believe that, but that was the challenge.
Here's the problem I've been having: the goalposts keeps getting moved.
Are we comparing the power of naked classes?
Are we comparing the power of naked classes and see how that works vs balors?
Are we comparing the power of naked classes that would work at all levels, 1-20?
Are we comparing the power of geared classes that only uses CRB gear?
Are we comparing the power of geared classes that only uses hardcover gear?
Are we comparing the power of classes only at their power at level 20?
Are we comparing the power of classes in games that Raith plays?
Are we comparing the power of classes in games that Lormyr plays?
Which one is it? So far only OP, Nicos and Lormyr has posted a full build. When Lormyr posted his build I tried to build a fighter using his game assumptions. When Raith posted a theoretical fighter I tried to make a theoretical Monk using his assumptions.
Lormyr and Raith both claims they played their characters from 1-20 (well, 1-19 for Lormyr), so obviously, their builds aren't theoretical builds on the internet that never sees the light of day. Lormyr's games allows more source books than Raiths.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, it will help if Raith posts his build, so we know what assumptions we're working with here.
If we want to do a test that takes into account the complaints about the monk, we need to set parameters. The primary complaint is they are subpar as a martial class in unarmed combat. Monk players like Dabbler want to play a straight up unarmed fighter that can go toe to toe in melee combat similar to the way a barbarian or fighter go toe to toe in unarmed combat.
This isn't a test of can I find every feat and magic item to make my monk viable or stronger than a fighter or a "I'll just trade out Quingong abilities because they are ALWAYS better than the base monk abilities". No one is complaining about Quingong monk. We all know that being able to take ranged attack spells is awesome. We all know Crane Style is awesome. This is purely concerning martial abilities in straight up unarmed combat. That is the complaint given the monk was supposed to be a Kung Fu Theatre Style martial arts fighter (at least that is what I think they were build to model).
So to do this test, we will set the following the parameters:
1. The focus is on class abilities and the ability to do unarmed combat, not on race abilities or niche feats.
a. No magical blaster spell Quingong powers. You can take barkskin, true strike, and things that enhance melee power.
b. Both will be human. A bland, simple race that is considered the baseline.
c. Any archetype is viable save for ranged attack archetypes. We want to focus on the unarmed capabilities of the monk.
d. Both will focus on melee combat. The monk will focus solely on Unarmed Combat. The fighter on any form of melee combat with weapon or unarmed. No archery. Archery works fine for both monk and fighter.
2. 20 point buy stats. No feats like Celestial Obedience or anything that gives magical powers that aren't tied to a martial style such as Elemental Fist. No trying to obtain spell-like abilities to get Arcane Strike. Or anything of the like. We want straight up martial capabilities from the class and basic combat feats from the CRB, APG, UM, and UC. Advanced Race Guide only for humans.
3. There will be two builds. One for lvl 10, a common level reached by I would think a majority. Not everyone makes it to level 20. So saying a "Monk at lvl 20 is great" doesn't mean much to 95% (if that) of Pathfinder players. They'll never see that level. A lvl 20 capstone to see how both classes do maxed out in melee combat just for kicks.
4. The tests will consist of the following:
A. A PvP fight: Just to see how they fare against each other.
B. A discussion of easily sustained fighting as in average damage per standard action attack and average damage over the course of a series of encounters in an adventuring day. You're not always buffed to the max. How does each class do in mook fights.
C. A level appropriate BBEG fight or three with standard party buffs from a very basic Cleric, Wizard, Monk, and Fighter. A very baseline party.
This is a more appropriate test of martial capabilities of each class. We know fighters aren't stealthy and monks can be. So testing skill is an automatic win for the monk. So we'll leave that test out, even though it is relevant to the monk vs. fighter discussion. The focus is on the simple claim that a monk is not very good at dealing damage in unarmed combat, yet it is what they were made to do.
The point is not to build the best fighter ever, but to build an effective character you'd love to play. I don't believe that monks are better than fighters, but that they are more fun to play. Sure, you have to troll through the various archetypes, races and traits to find a great combo, but then that's half the fun!When comparing/debating monks and fighters, why not agree to a standard benchmark build? How about level 12 PFS legal with 108,000gp worth of treasure?
My favorite Monk builds are:
1. Oread Zen Archer with Quinggong tweaks.
2. The Halfling trip monkey: Underfoot adept/Martial Artist.
3. Empty handed monk of the sacred mountain with traits to get +3 to hit with improvised weapon.Here is my Oread Zen Archer build at level 12:
Stats:
Strength 18
Dexterity 14
Constitution 10
Wisdom 21
Intelligence 8
Charisma 5Kit Abilities:
Flurry of Blows with Bow only, Perfect Strike, Weapon Focus with Long Bow, Use monk level in place of BAB for CMB, Use Wisdom (not dex) for bow to hit,Point Blank Mastery, Ki Pool, Slow Fall, 1 ki to cast barkskin, 1 ki to convert arrow damage to unarmed value, Weapon Specialization with Composite Long Bow, If 1 ki, can deny death, AOO with bow, 3 ki to ignore total concealment and total cover, even firing around corners, spend 2 ki to cast dimension doorFeat Choices:
Toughness, Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, Deadly Aim, Deep sight, Improved Precise Shot, Mobility, Improved Critical, Pinpoint targeting, Clustered ShotsEquipment choices with 108,000 gp budget:
+4 Adaptive Composite Long Bow (33.1kgp)
Headband of Wisdom +6 (36kgp)
Belt of Strength +2, dexterity +2 and constitution +2 (16kgp)
Amulet of natural armor +3 (18kgp)Statistics:
HP = 99 AC = 29 Flurry ABs: +21/+21/+16/+16/+11 d8+17 each Move@60’
15 perfect strikes a day 15 ki points Barkskin is AC5, lasts two hours
30 feet range is +1/+1 on attacksCan you make a better archer kit? Spec it out to level 12, 108,000 gp and post for comparison. I would...
Don't derail the thread with ranged, we already know ranged fighting is good on both monks and fighters. This is about martial combat.
Then he'd find out one of the reasons blaster wizards lose power as they level. Elemental resistance and immunity(especially to fire) aren't common at 20th level. They're damn near ubiquitous. Also unlike the blaster you can't take the elemental feat or use a rod to change energy type. Its a great use of equipment, but you could literally take that same list of equipment only switching out a few items for their fighter equivalents who fights with a bashing shield can use all of those things just as easily getting an AC that is within a few of yours either way. He's also be doing more damage and while his saves wouldn't be as immaculate, they'd be good enough and he could be buffed, but you wont see it because that build is so focused on defense and the fighter knows that a dead enemy can't hit you either.Except the monk also scorching rays for 12d6 damage followed by a swift action cold ice strike for 15d6 damage a round, for around three rounds if my ki calculations is correct. The totals 81d6 damage, assuming no misses or saves of course. That averages to 283.5 damage. After that he's out of juice, unless he has a way of restoring Ki (there's several).At the moment Lormyr has proven that taking Crane Style is a must for every monk. That's about it. I already knew that. Maybe Snake Style would do in a pinch for the pure unarmed guys.
If Crane Style is the primary ability making the monk effective in PvP versus the fighter, then the fighter can take Crane as well. I'll whip up a defensive fighter and see how they compare. Then they can spend hours missing each other.
But this was a discussion of a 1v1 fight between the monk and the fighter, no? You might have missed it, but someone issued that challenge of a no gear 1v1 fight. Now, that really isn't indicative of anything powerwise, and you would be silly to believe that, but that was the challenge.
Here's the problem I've been having: the goalposts...
I did not run the fighter to 20 as a player. I DMed the fighter in the same group I DMed the Zen Archer Monk in the same group I DMed a Fiend Totem Come and Get Me Barbarian.
Here are my observations as DM:
1. The Fighter:
Pros: Does the most single hit damage of the group. He could bring the pain when he had a chance to attack.
Cons: Easiest character in the group to nullify. Had no means to deal with flying and invisible creatures. Weakest saves in the group. Easiest to hit and do damage to. No way to defend himself from spells. He had a ring of freedom of movement. That helped him quite a bit. But overall he suffered the most from my nullification tactics at high level.
Terrain messed him up. He moved extremely slow in armor.
If I had to sum him up, he was a giant sword that could be easily avoided. If he hit you, you would die. But it easy to stop him from hitting you and easy to slow him down. He didn't maneuver well.
2. Zen Archer Monk/Ranger 4 (for gravity bow):
Pros:
Did a lot of aggregate damage. They get a ton of attacks. Had some abilities to boost damage to ridiculous levels. If something didn't have DR, it was getting slammed.
Could attack from long range. Maneuverability was irrelevant.
Seeking on the bow allowed her to use high perception to pinpoint and hit her target. One round of attacks was enough to kill just about anything that didn't have substantial DR.
Great all around saves. Very resistant to spell attacks that allowed a save. Hard to eliminate from a combat.
AC was very good as well including touch AC. Monk bonus with stacks of magic items made her tough to hit. She would just run out of a melee combatants range taking an AoO rather than take a full attack. Fire an arrow at slow moving melee combatants getting out of range in one move due to her speed. She started riding a flying ebon fly using full attacks while buzzing around opponents.
Con: fickle winds was put in the game. Once that spell is up, archer's weep. They have to ask spellcasting friends to remove it with dispel magic.
The usual weakness of any class that can't defend itself from a no save spell.
If I had to sum up the Zen Archer monk, she was a well-armored, well-defended barrage weapon that was hard to beat. Very difficult as a DM.
3. The Barbarian: This class is just too much. He bought a ring of evasion and was better at dodging reflex spells than the rogue or monk could ever dream of being. When raging he made the Paladin look like a slacker on saves.
10/- DR. Come and Get Me. Step Up for the few times a creature tried to attack him with reach. He built up his hit points to something like 420 raging.
The barbarian was the biggest nightmare melee to deal with. He was easy to hit, hard to hurt or bring down. Ripped everything apart.
Then good old Paizo decided to add Raging Brutality into the game for a class that already had Come and Get Me. Hasted he would get his five attacks with Reckless Abandon canceling the PA negative with Raging Brutality. I'm glad he didn't have those Juggernaut Pauldron Lormyr put on his character.
I started to give enemies a 1000 hit points so they would last a round or two. Thanks for the barbarian Paizo. I appreciate you giving him all those abilities that make him overshadow everyone else.
I'm thankful he wasn't a Beast Totem Barbarian.
Pros: Too many to count.
Cons: He was affected by no save spells.
At lower levels I could use no save fatigue spells to slow him down. That stopped working at level 17.
Invis worked until he bought some item to give him see invisibility or the cleric has invis purge up.
If I had to sum up the barbarian, the word NIGHTMARE comes to mind. It's real hard to design encounters to challenge the other characters and the barbarian at the same time.
That's my experience. I'm sure experiences differ for others. I don't consider the monk a total simp like Dabbler. I wish the guy was better at unarmed combat since when I play a monk I want to be a bad to the bone hand to hand combat guy on par with the melees. The monk isn't some weak chump that can't compete.
The barbarian is heads and tails above all the other melees right now. If Paizo was going for unstoppable force of destruction, they succeeded.
His AC wasn't great. That did help some with enervates and energy drain until the death ward was on him.
Dat barbarian. Sweet Jesus.
Just an FYI, I'm not a monk or fighter specialist. I'm a caster player dabbling with monks and martials usually as a second character or for a change of pace.
This test would go a whole lot better if a fighter specialist made a build to go against the monk build. I don't know them well enough. Last fighter I played was a half-orc two-weapon warrior wielding Falcatas. I enjoyed the character and he started to outdamage the monk in our group as he leveled, but he would have been boring playing on his own. That 20 foot speed in Full Plate Armor and no spellcasting is not super fun. I hate waiting for the casters to get up invisibility purge or glitterdust. It was nice to do a whole bunch of damage once I was able to hit something. The crits were incredible damage. The lack of versatility was no fun.
There has to be some fighter player out there that really knows how to trick out a fighter. I know my buddy tried Stunning Assault Whirlwind attack. It was pretty cool the few times it did work. Did a ton of damage and kept opponents stunned. Great for mook fights.
Well that is because a CAGM barbarian trades AC for better defense (DR). Everything WILL hit him, but it will also be hit back AND will probably die in the process lol.
...Then he'd find out one of the reasons blaster wizards lose power as they level. Elemental resistance and immunity(especially to fire) aren't common at 20th level. They're damn near ubiquitous. Also unlike the blaster you can't take the elemental feat or use a rod to change energy type. Its a great use of equipment, but you could literally take that same list of equipment only switching out a few items for their fighter equivalents who fights with a bashing shield can use all of those things just as easily getting an AC that is within a few of yours either way. He's also be doing more damage and while his saves wouldn't be as immaculate, they'd be good enough and he could be buffed, but you wont see it because that build is so focused on defense and the fighter knows that a dead enemy can't hit you either.Except the monk also scorching rays for 12d6 damage followed by a swift action cold ice strike for 15d6 damage a round, for around three rounds if my ki calculations is correct. The totals 81d6 damage, assuming no misses or saves of course. That averages to 283.5 damage. After that he's out of juice, unless he has a way of restoring Ki (there's several).At the moment Lormyr has proven that taking Crane Style is a must for every monk. That's about it. I already knew that. Maybe Snake Style would do in a pinch for the pure unarmed guys.
If Crane Style is the primary ability making the monk effective in PvP versus the fighter, then the fighter can take Crane as well. I'll whip up a defensive fighter and see how they compare. Then they can spend hours missing each other.
But this was a discussion of a 1v1 fight between the monk and the fighter, no? You might have missed it, but someone issued that challenge of a no gear 1v1 fight. Now, that really isn't indicative of anything powerwise, and you would be silly to believe that, but that was the challenge.
Here's the problem I've been
The barbarian I was DMing for was a RageScythePounce barbarian before RangeLancePounce was even a thing on the forums. I got creative sometimes and shut in down because it wasn't full on optimized, but yeah, they're a beasts. Although I'm pretty stingy loot wise and use a lot of terrain, so that helped a lot.
I'll see if I can get to a monk tomorrow. Would a combat maneuver monk fit what you want, or do you just want damage? I build all my damage monks as weapon monks (lots of martial arts teaches weapon styles as well), so an unarmed damage monk would be an exercise for me. I asked about combat maneuver monk mainly because I've been trying to think of how to make one.
...But this was a discussion of a 1v1 fight between the monk and the fighter, no? You might have missed it, but someone issued that challenge of a no gear 1v1 fight. Now, that really isn't indicative of anything powerwise, and you would be silly to believe that, but that was the challenge.Then he'd find out one of the reasons blaster wizards lose power as they level. Elemental resistance and immunity(especially to fire) aren't common at 20th level. They're damn near ubiquitous. Also unlike the blaster you can't take the elemental feat or use a rod to change energy type. Its a great use of equipment, but you could literally take that same list of equipment only switching out a few items for their fighter equivalents who fights with a bashing shield can use all of those things just as easily getting an AC that is within a few of yours either way. He's also be doing more damage and while his saves wouldn't be as immaculate, they'd be good enough and he could be buffed, but you wont see it because that build is so focused on defense and the fighter knows that a dead enemy can't hit you either.Except the monk also scorching rays for 12d6 damage followed by a swift action cold ice strike for 15d6 damage a round, for around three rounds if my ki calculations is correct. The totals 81d6 damage, assuming no misses or saves of course. That averages to 283.5 damage. After that he's out of juice, unless he has a way of restoring Ki (there's several).At the moment Lormyr has proven that taking Crane Style is a must for every monk. That's about it. I already knew that. Maybe Snake Style would do in a pinch for the pure unarmed guys.
If Crane Style is the primary ability making the monk effective in PvP versus the fighter, then the fighter can take Crane as well. I'll whip up a defensive fighter and see how they compare. Then they can spend hours missing each other.
No. A combat maneuver monk wouldn't fit.
As far as I can tell from reading Dabbler's post is he wants to fight in hand to hand combat like the Kung Fu Theatre Martial artists except in a Pathfinder game. So go unarmed and compete damage wise with other martial damage classes against hordes of fiends, giants, and the like. He wants to be able to hit them and do unarmed damage without needing to take a weapon to compete.
I tend to agree that holding the monk back from doing so at this point is no longer necessary with classes like the Inquisitor, Magus, and Barbarian as powerful offensively and defensively as they are. Before you could argue that limiting the monk due to their powerful defenses was a tradeoff. But now these other 3/4 BAB classes are powerful on both sides of the spectrum. Why continue to single the monk out?
I think the Fighter and Rogue/Ninja could use some love to catch up with the Magus, Inquisitor, and Barbarian as well.
I think the Cavalier and Paladin have enough other stuff going for them that their focused abilities are good enough. So I don't think they need any love from Paizo. They have a very cool and desireable niche and are exceptional in that niche.
Lormyr, those are some pretty impressive builds. Sick system mastery on monk building, though I wish the class didn't require that level of specialization to be competitive. I'm also impressed with your tenacity - the way the goal posts for the monk keep changing is pretty rough, and I've have skipped out here a long time ago.
I'm glad he didn't get dazing assault. It was bad enough to deal with.
monks are awesome.
my truestriking, face smashing, turtle clutching, dimentional agility-ing, tetori says hi!
any character who can grapple someone, pin them in the same round then dimension door up for the world most epic powerbomb, is just so awesome.
I agree, the Tetori is a great archetype. Doesn't change the fact that the core monk is weak, it highlights it. So your statement should start: "Tetori are awesome" and not "monks are awesome".
I agree with you on many points, though. Core only monks are rough, fighters are much easier to make very effective, and their damage is almost always more impressive.
All I hope to show here is that monks can be made quite effective if one builds them properly.
In other words, you agree with us that the monk is a mechanically weak class that is hard to make effective without a degree in system mastery?
You see while that build is great, it relies a lot on items to enhance the monk, to a very great degree. In the fighter build I posted, I was using a standard human, and most of the damage comes not directly from items but from feats and class features. Your monk maximised his damage with temporary buffs (using the juggernaut's paldrons and strong jaw - how do you guarantee the latter though?). Now given that debuffs are going to be thrown around like crazy, that's not something you can depend upon (and let's be honest, if you fight that balor, he's going to hit you with a greater dispel right at the outset).
The other problem is that it leaves you little leeway to make a unique character. You have to have X Y Z items and feats every time. Now my fighter I made off-beat and to a different theme - not a two-handed falcata-weilder (the optimal) but a pole-wielding maneuver expert. You can make a lot of builds and styles work with other classes. If you are tied to one or two concepts for an effective monk, you don't get that.
That's why I maintain, still, that the monk is intrinsically mechanically weak.
Dabbler,
I still believe his main issue is damage. The other mechanics are fine.
A monk is not a rogue. His primary job should not be slinking around. He's a hand to hand combatant. He should be good at dealing damage in hand to hand combat. Yet he is comparable to other martial classes.
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A no magic item build is pretty silly though, fighters are especially hurt when they have no gear to play with. I have to admit it was a fun building exercise.
Have you ever looked at bewildering koan? It up there in brokenness and would make every GM throw the book at you. With Tongue of the Sun and Moon, you can use it to make an angry bee swarm ponder the secrets of the universe.
I agree, thanks for duking it out with me theoretically there with our gearless gimps. :)
I personally feel that fighters and monks hurt equally without gear. The monk's main advantage is that is is easier for him to scale AC without gear. Fighters advantage is they scale hit and damage much better without gear.
And yes, that feat cracks me up!
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I have to admit that Without gear Lormyr monk fair much better than expected. Besides Lotion strategy of feint the only other thing that I can think of is a fighter with eldritch heritage and the fey bloodline. Improved invisibility so the monk lose 15 points in dodge AC and 7 in dex. Then a cornugon smashin furious focus power attack with dazing assault +29 (2d4+32 15-20/x3) DC 34 or be dazed.
But no, I do not have a method (besides feint) to reliable hit that monk.
Thanks Nicos.
Bloodlines are a great idea for boosting a fighter if you don't dump Cha. That monk has blind fight through, so he would not lose his Dex from being attacked by invisible creatures in melee.
From Blind-Fight: "An invisible attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you in melee. That is, you don't lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesn't get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible. The invisible attacker's bonuses do still apply for ranged attacks, however."
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It's substandard, uncommon choices focused solely on building up AC.
At this point, I'm really not sure what else to say to you bud. I'll just add a replies to your words, and then kindly agree to disagree with you.
1). The choices may be uncommon, but they are grossly effective for my personal play style. That is why I select them.
2). I played the PFS version of the AC build all the way from level 1 to 19. So it is not just a theoretical build I put together on paper.
3). Crane style is not the only viable one. The strength monk did great things with dragon style if I do say so myself.
4). I understand your group plays differently with more limited resources. There is nothing wrong with that. My group plays with resources from every Pathfinder official book we own. There is nothing wrong with that either.
5). I do not understand your beef with my archetype and feat selections. I am of the opinion that critising me for selecting qinggong monk and celestial obedience would be like me criticising you for taking two-handed fighter, power attack, and weapon specialization line. You took the archetypes and feats that compliment your build goals, and I did the same. How is it uneven?
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Lormyr, those are some pretty impressive builds. Sick system mastery on monk building, though I wish the class didn't require that level of specialization to be competitive. I'm also impressed with your tenacity - the way the goal posts for the monk keep changing is pretty rough, and I've have skipped out here a long time ago.
Thanks Peter. Monk is my favorite class, so I learned a long time ago how to make them shine.
If you think that is sick system mastery though, don't put a wizard in my hands. You'll get up and walk away from the table. ;)
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I agree with you on many points, though. Core only monks are rough, fighters are much easier to make very effective, and their damage is almost always more impressive.
All I hope to show here is that monks can be made quite effective if one builds them properly.
In other words, you agree with us that the monk is a mechanically weak class that is hard to make effective without a degree in system mastery?
You see while that build is great, it relies a lot on items to enhance the monk, to a very great degree. In the fighter build I posted, I was using a standard human, and most of the damage comes not directly from items but from feats and class features. Your monk maximised his damage with temporary buffs (using the juggernaut's paldrons and strong jaw - how do you guarantee the latter though?). Now given that debuffs are going to be thrown around like crazy, that's not something you can depend upon (and let's be honest, if you fight that balor, he's going to hit you with a greater dispel right at the outset).
The other problem is that it leaves you little leeway to make a unique character. You have to have X Y Z items and feats every time. Now my fighter I made off-beat and to a different theme - not a two-handed falcata-weilder (the optimal) but a pole-wielding maneuver expert. You can make a lot of builds and styles work with other classes. If you are tied to one or two concepts for an effective monk, you don't get that.
That's why I maintain, still, that the monk is...
I agree that a monk, using the CRB only, is mechanically weak. At this stage of product though, why any group would play Core only is not something I can understand. Breaking past core, monks are great. To each their own though, far be it from me to judge other's gaming.
The strong jaw on the Str monk only came into play because Raith mentioned party buffs in his opposition. He included haste as his party buff, so I choose strong jaw in response.
I feel I am pretty good at building magic items or no. Check out the absolutely zero gear monk, and you will see that he would still be a nightmare for a fighter to battle if the fighter also had no gear other than common weapons and armor.
Male Human Monk (Drunken Master, Weapon Adept, Qigong) 20
LN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +14; Senses Perception +32
Temporary Bonuses Applied Barkskin,
DEFENSE
AC 51, touch 38, flat-footed 37 (+8 *Bracers of Armor, +8 Dex, +8 wis, +5 deflection, +1 dodge, +5 monk, +5 bark skin, +1 ioun stone)
hp 193 (20d8)+100
Fort +22, Ref +26, Will +26
Speed 90 ft. (18 squares), Abundant Step, Fast Movement
Flurry of blows calculation (20 + 1 WF, +13 str, +5 amulet, +1 ioun stone, -2 flurry) = 38
Damage Calculation (+13 str, +6 dragon style, + 12 power attack, +5 weapon enchant, +2 weapon specialization)
Melee flurry of blows +38/+38/+33/+33/+28/+23/+18 (2d10+26/19-20)
With Power Attack +32/+32/+27/+27/+22/+22/+17 (2d10+38/19-20)
Face 5 ft. Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +15; CMB +33 (+35 disarm) (+35 grapple); CMD 66 (68 vs disarm) (68 vs grapple)
Abilities
Str 36, Dex 26, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 26, Cha 8
Special Qualities
Abundant Step, AC Bonus, Barkskin, Battlemind Link, Bonus Feat, Cloak of Winds, Drunken Courage, Drunken Ki, Drunken Resilience, Drunken Strength, Evasion, Fast Movement, Firewater Breath, Maneuver Training, Perfect Strike, Pure Power, Skilled, Uncanny Initiative, Way of the Weapon Master,
Feats
Blind-Fight, Bodyguard, Combat Reflexes, Dazing Assault, Deflect Arrows, Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault, Dimensional Dervish, Dodge, Dragon Ferocity, Dragon Style, Improved Initiative, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Perfect Strike, Power Attack, Stunning Fist
Trait
Fortified Drinker, Reactionary
Skills:
Acrobatics +32; Appraise +1; Climb +20; Craft (Untrained) +1; Escape Artist +18; Fly +9; Heal +9; Intimidate +4; Knowledge (Religion) +13; Perception +32; Ride +9; Sense Motive +32; Stealth +32; Survival +9; Swim +18;
Possessions amulet of mighty fists +5; headband of inspired wisdom +6; bracers of armor +8; ring of protection +5; belt of physical perfection +6; cloak of resistance +5; ioun stone, dusty rose prism; ioun stone, iridescent spindle; ioun stone, pale green prism; manual of gainful exercise (+5); manual of quickness of action (+4); tome of understanding (+4);
With the combination of Drunken Ki and Battlemind Link, you can keep this buff up forever for you and your whole party. With uncanny initiative, you can always choose to roll a 20 on initiative, which results in your whole party rolling a 20. Congrats, your whole team goes first.
Things to do in battle:
Abundant Step and then flurry for a decent amount of damage using dimensional dervish, can use Ki for one extra attack, if hasted, gain one more.
Fun things you can do:
True Strike lasts until your next attack. Abundant Step next to a balor and disarm him with a +59 to CMB with your first attack. If you beat his CMD by 10, both his weapons are disarmed and flies 15 feet away.
You can also abundant step next to the wizard and use steal combat maneuver to take his spell component pouch. Or you can rob the cleric of his holy symbol.
Final Notes:
Not only can you be up there and fight decently, you also provide your party with the ability to go first in each combat. You can also do some neat guaranteed combat maneuvers with your first attack, if that's what you're into. My gear is as generic as you can get.
Roleplaying Notes:
You're a drunken master who worships Caiden. Bring a lot of beer to the table and take a drink every time you drink 5 beers in game. Everything should roleplay itself afterwards.
PS:
I did this while not being able to sleep. I'm sure there are mistakes in there, feel free to point them out to me
So every build requires Quingong with Spell-like abilities?
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Lotion, something you might consider for a pure face beater monk at that level is ki mystic archetype. At 19 they get a stellar melee power:
Mystic Persistence (Su): At 19th level, a ki mystic can create an aura once per day as a swift action at the cost of at least 2 points of ki. The aura emanates out to a 20-foot radius. The monk and all allies within the aura can roll two dice when making an attack roll or a saving throw and take the better result. The aura lasts for 1 round, plus an additional round for every 2 ki points spent when the monk created the aura. The monk can dismiss the aura at any time as a free action, but the ki points for the full duration of the aura are lost. This ability replaces empty body.
This was a hidden gem on the no gear halfling that a lot of folks probably also didn't realize.
So every build requires Quingong with Spell-like abilities?
Do inquisitors cast spells?
Do non CRB rangers rely on instant enemy?But sure. Remove qigong. You lose: 5 AC from bark skin and battlemind link. Spend all your Ki for +4 AC instead. Your battlefield presence is still there. You don't lose dimensional assault from losing Qigong. Qigong just makes it so that you have more options. I thought you got bored of the fighter that only two hand attacks?
Anyways, I forgot to mention that I'm also packing Dazing Assault. So I can teleport and full round dazing assault. This can be done with a non-archetype monk.
Lotion, something you might consider for a pure face beater monk at that level is ki mystic archetype. At 19 they get a stellar melee power:
Mystic Persistence (Su): At 19th level, a ki mystic can create an aura once per day as a swift action at the cost of at least 2 points of ki. The aura emanates out to a 20-foot radius. The monk and all allies within the aura can roll two dice when making an attack roll or a saving throw and take the better result. The aura lasts for 1 round, plus an additional round for every 2 ki points spent when the monk created the aura. The monk can dismiss the aura at any time as a free action, but the ki points for the full duration of the aura are lost. This ability replaces empty body.
This was a hidden gem on the no gear halfling that a lot of folks probably also didn't realize.
Ha ha. Oh wow I can't believe I missed that. I'll have to see how those archetypes mix.
But yeah, I can never make a pure beater, I always like to splash a little utility in.
It's substandard, uncommon choices focused solely on building up AC.At this point, I'm really not sure what else to say to you bud. I'll just add a replies to your words, and then kindly agree to disagree with you.
1). The choices may be uncommon, but they are grossly effective for my personal play style. That is why I select them.
2). I played the PFS version of the AC build all the way from level 1 to 19. So it is not just a theoretical build I put together on paper.
3). Crane style is not the only viable one. The strength monk did great things with dragon style if I do say so myself.
4). I understand your group plays differently with more limited resources. There is nothing wrong with that. My group plays with resources from every Pathfinder official book we own. There is nothing wrong with that either.
5). I do not understand your beef with my archetype and feat selections. I am of the opinion that critising me for selecting qinggong monk and celestial obedience would be like me criticising you for taking two-handed fighter, power attack, and weapon specialization line. You took the archetypes and feats that compliment your build goals, and I did the same. How is it uneven?
Celestial Obedience is not at all alike to Power Attack. It isn't some monk specific feat. A fighter could take it just as easily to buff himself further. I remember it now. Those came out with Faiths of Purity and Faiths of Corruption or whatever they are called. The good and evil faith books.
The archetypes are fine. Quingong came out much later and it incorporates spell-like powers, something a fighter can't achieve. One archetype makes the monk much better. Without Quingong, monk would still have problems in melee. Not to mention your entire build would be far inferior without the Agile magic enhancement. Then you might have to split your points on strength to do viable damage. I wonder how that worked out at lower levels prior to purchasing that enhancement.
I believe if someone focused on a fighter had built a similar fighter, they would deal superior damage by quite a margin. I do not know every single method to boost a fighter. I'm not at all a fighter specialist. Seems there are none around. I can understand that. Fighter is a very boring class.
Your build is fine. It seems you address monk weaknesses with magic items rather than their innate abilities. This is at the peak of their ability. How fun were they as you leveled up? How did they do damage wise? When did he finally hit his stride?
Fighter is pretty even at all levels in what he can do. Monk not so much in my experience.
So every build requires Quingong with Spell-like abilities?Do inquisitors cast spells?
Without an archetype.
Do non CRB rangers rely on instant enemy?
Without an archetype.
But sure. Remove qigong. You lose: 5 AC from bark skin and battlemind link. Spend all your Ki for +4 AC instead. Your battlefield presence is still there. You don't lose dimensional assault from losing Qigong. Qigong just makes it so that you have more options. I thought you got bored of the fighter that only two hand attacks?
Anyways, I forgot to mention that I'm also packing Dazing Assault. So I can teleport and full round dazing assault. This can be done with a non-archetype monk.
And the two-handed fighter can Whirlwind Dazing Assault with Lunge while enlarged.
I've only made one fighter. It was a two-weapon fighter. The two-hander was another guy's character. I don't play fighters as my main. Too boring.
I don't play monks too often either. Too boring as well. For all the builds you guys are posting, they're still not versatile enough to interest me. They require far too much time buffing and prepping to get everything going. Same type of problem the Inquisitor has.
I plotted out a Dimensional Assault one trick pony. A lot of feats to get that build going. He doesn't do so hot at lower level. You basically spend a ton of time waiting to get Abundant Step. It's so easy to plan out a great monk at lvl 20, but the reality is you have to play him to that level and make him viable as you do.
That's one of the reasons the fighters I ran with were so effective. They were ready to go when the battled started. Waded in Dazing Assaulting and killing on round one. No wasted standard actions buffing themselves up. Let the casters buff him while he went to work.
So every build requires Quingong with Spell-like abilities?Do inquisitors cast spells?Without an archetype.
Do non CRB rangers rely on instant enemy?Without an archetype.
But sure. Remove qigong. You lose: 5 AC from bark skin and battlemind link. Spend all your Ki for +4 AC instead. Your battlefield presence is still there. You don't lose dimensional assault from losing Qigong. Qigong just makes it so that you have more options. I thought you got bored of the fighter that only two hand attacks?
Anyways, I forgot to mention that I'm also packing Dazing Assault. So I can teleport and full round dazing assault. This can be done with a non-archetype monk.
And the two-handed fighter can Whirlwind Dazing Assault with Lunge while enlarged.
I've only made one fighter. It was a two-weapon fighter. The two-hander was another guy's character. I don't play fighters as my main. Too boring.
I don't play monks too often either. Too boring as well. For all the builds you guys are posting, they're still not versatile enough to interest me. They require far too much time buffing and prepping to get everything going. Same type of problem the Inquisitor has.
I plotted out a Dimensional Assault one trick pony. A lot of feats to get that build going. He doesn't do so hot at lower level. You basically spend a ton of time waiting to get Abundant Step. It's so easy to plan out a great monk at lvl 20, but the reality is you have to play him to that level and make him viable as you do.
That's one of the reasons the fighters I ran with were so effective. They were ready to go when the battled started. Waded in Dazing Assaulting and killing on round one. No wasted standard actions buffing themselves up. Let the casters buff him while he went to work.
And the monk does it by attempting to daze 9 enemies within 180 feet. Without an archetype.
Also, why does these take too long to buff? These are essentially always on buffs. You reapply Battlemind Link every 20 minutes and Barkskin every 2 hours. You have an unlimited pool of Ki to do this with.
And what's wrong with buffing monk with an archetype that stacks with every single other monk archetype combination out there? The Qigong is meant to be a customization option for monk.
The ranger was buffed with ranger specific spells.
The barbarian was buffed with barbarian specific rage powers.
What's wrong with the monk being buffed with customization options? Would it make you feel better if they added this in Ultimate Magic and said "instead of slow fall, you may pick this ability instead" without calling it an archetype?
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How fun were they as you leveled up? How did they do damage wise? When did he finally hit his stride?
Super fun.
His damage sucked until level 5 when I could acquire his amulet, but he remained unhittable from level 2 all the way through 19 and killed things just fine.
The rest of your comments are things we could go in circles about all day.
You've seen the geared defensive monk, the geared damage monk, and the totally gearless monk. You're free to draw your own conclusions at this point.