Goblin Squad Member
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... gathering in groups scales rewards linearly with the number of people (provided you don't drain all of the nodes)If there are 10 metal nodes in a map tile, though, it doesn't matter if one person mines them or 10 people mine them, there will only be 51 metal (or rust or sulfur) per node, or 510 metal/etc for the tile, then 3 hours before it can be mined again. It doesn't seem advantageous to mass for that. I'll accept that grouping allows some of the gatherers to attempt to escape once enemy are spotted.
I think there's plenty of space to make grouping more rewarding.
But wouldn't it then make gathering faster with multiple people, so that one lone gather isn't sitting out there all alone and vulnerable for as long a period? I recall getting half a dozen or more people together once in UO to gather lumber for an upcoming event. We spread out in a line and all moved in the same direction, collecting from every tree in our path. Very efficient, and in Darkfall, potentially safer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I noticed even the clans with names not related to mass death, plague, undead, blood sacrifice, cultural extermination, global destruction, and genocide are not very nice if you are not in their alliance. There are some that have strange and interesting names, but their members are just as likely to kill you as the evil sounding ones.
So, we have been trying to make some friends in Agon. And friends seem hard to come by and easy to lose. But we're working on it!
Might I suggest having treasure maps lead to dungeon entrances that are randomly generated when the map is made. The dungeon can scale according to how many are inside, possibly without regard to their grouping (so there is no advantage to exploring together without being in the same party)
+1 for treasure maps during escalation time
+2 for treasure map leading deep on the bottom of a dungeon
but in DFUW i really don't like there's two servers separated
the world is ONE region, a world single server could create greats kingdoms competition and wars at any time.
An empty game is annoying without social/pvp/trading/interactions.
Please give us just ONE server :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Please give us just ONE server...
Due to the nature of the twitch combat, ping (latency) is a hugely important item.
I believe we've heard not the slightest hint that GW's considering anything but a single server. Calidor's point is probably one of the reasons why we hear that PFO's also not going to be frighteningly twitch-based.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another crafting comment here...
I find the crafting has it's own milestone requiring players to put some real though into what they will choose as the "Crafting Mastery". Upon hitting a skill of 100 in a craft (there are many, but I'll pick Armorcrafting as an example), to proceed to the next level of expertise, the player must spend 10,000 prowess points to purchase that "Crafting Mastery". That's a lot of Prowess to spend, because some of our players don't have much more than 5,000 prowess after two weeks of casual play. Some of us grinders have more, but we are the exception.
So, choosing a crafting mastery is a big decision and those points will not be refunded if you choose poorly. This is sort of a career deciding moment for lower level characters, and should not be taken lightly. And that's a good thing. Some things appear to be in much higher demand and need more of that crafting mastery. Some things are fairly uncommon (not many shield users, as the PvPers seem to prefer the burst damage of two-handed weapons.
In PFO there should be a moment in each characters advancement (over a few years perhaps more than just one moment, but still) where a decision must be made that requires serious consideration. Either a choice that cannot be unmade, or an expense that is non-refundable (big experience cost here, say 8 weeks worth of experience if gained at 100 XPs per hour, or 134,400) for a momentous event.
I haven't seen the game design notes for the skills each character will have access to as they advance in their chosen career. But let's look at a cleric (I have a bias, as my main will be a cleric). A cleric will start off learning some clerical abilities, some combat abilities, some divine knowledge abilities, achieve some heals, cures, fight good or evil, help in large battles, perform some sort of public service, all over the course of the first year of game time. Tens of thousands of XPs have been earned, and many of them expended. But at 12 months the cleric needs to choose a clerical career path (I am guessing here what might be in the system): healing cleric (party and battle healer), holy cleric (undead smiter and bringer of justice) or aristocratic cleric (one that moves into politics, settlement management and may run a temple). This choice would be at a tremendous cost (use my 8 weeks of XP gains for example). This decision would be studied well in advance of qualification, but would not preclude the other choices, but it could be a long time before the cleric's career permitted a second option (say maybe after the 30 month capstone achievement or whatever the pinnacle is nowadays).
The argument is, at some point in PFO, players should have to make a momentous decision. It will be good for the game, and will cause those player specialties to be thoroughly thought through (whew) before an expense that large is made.
Choose well fellow Pathfinders!
First, no classes, there will be class badges but any and all skills are available.
Second, I think it would be a fine idea for mastery of a skill, but I have always hated when games force me to specialize, I am, have always been, and will always be a Jack of all trades, I am willing to be less strong then a specialist in any particular skill, but to use a variety of skills decently is my desired way to play, and that is what I want to have available.
At the very least make a JOAT an option for such things if I automatically run into these decision points.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You should be allowed to be a Jack of All Trades, but, as the saying goes, Master of None. So you would be able to do a lot of things fairly well, but none of them as well as a master of that craft. This is where the decision point becomes crucial. You don't have to invest in that big moment. You can choose to never have that moment at all. But making a decision that commits your character to that path (at least for a time) is a big deal and should be rewarded with the mastery of that craft, in my example, Armorcrafting.
Once chosen, this character could begin to learn the rarest of the Armorcrafting skills and make the finest armor. IT would be a long but very rewarding road, allowing that crafter the chance to make a name for himself and put his mark on the gear he makes. That would be a big deal in a little game like this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Given time. That is in my above post as well.
But you should have to make a choice to commit to that mastery, otherwise every Tom, Dick and Harry will be Master Armorsmith Number 279! That's not a good plan. The crafting system should be deep and wide, but only those that hold their breath the longest can reach the deepest depths.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I see a branching skill tree, where the trunk has low, but steadily increasing, costs, and each brach has a very high xp cost where it separates from the trunk, then moderate, but increasing, costs as it goes up.
Getting the first skill in every branch would be prohibitively expensive, and your competitor will already have one or two mastered by the time you even start all of them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On the topic of shield users... really every single one of us should have a shield equipped and a 1-hander hotkeyed. Every single one us.
I just haven't touched on that point because its a fairly advanced tactic, and most people are still working on the basics.
The quick and simple is if you are the one getting focused you need to be able to parry up, and parrying is drastically more effective with a shield. This applies to both PvP and PvE.
I can parry with a sword much easier then with a shield, speaking from experience. Besides, a shield is more for blocking rather than parrying, and is very much strength style, which is hardly the most effective style despite its popularity.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can parry with a sword much easier then with a shield, speaking from experience. Besides, a shield is more for blocking rather than parrying, and is very much strength style, which is hardly the most effective style despite its popularity.
I'm talking DF mechanics here not actual swordplay or proposed mechanics for PFO. In DF all forms of parry block everything within 180 degrees in front of you, and you negate more damage if you have a shield equipped.
PS. It's good to see you back.
Block stops a blow, parry redirects a blow elsewhere. A shield is a very nice peice for stopping a blow, much more difficult to have a true parry. Parrying should truly be utilized to position oneself to attack, a shield can rarely be used that way, usually just maintaining the status quo.
I can use a sword to easily parry a blow away from while getting inside the opponants defenses to strike a blow, shields are so clumsy that pulling it off with a shield is extrodinarily difficult and a shield is almost never as effective a weapon in such cases anyway.
Yeah, I was ninjad. Andius' last post makes it much clearer.
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Block stops a blow, parry redirects a blow elsewhere. A shield is a very nice peice for stopping a blow, much more difficult to have a true parry. Parrying should truly be utilized to position oneself to attack, a shield can rarely be used that way, usually just maintaining the status quo.
I can use a sword to easily parry a blow away from while getting inside the opponants defenses to strike a blow, shields are so clumsy that pulling it off with a shield is extrodinarily difficult and a shield is almost never as effective a weapon in such cases anyway.
Are you talking about using a sword and Shield in game mech. or in real life??
Will there be Parrying and Reposting options in PFOBeing a little bit EXP in using Martial weapons i would love a game that actualy using them properly. as well as Armor. I can Run in Full plate just as well out of armor.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...Will there be Parrying and Reposting options in PFO
Being a little bit EXP in using Martial weapons i would love a game that actualy using them properly. as well as Armor. I can Run in Full plate just as well out of armor.
It may be that we will not know until the combat module is released for us to try out. Then I suspect we will all of us have a whole bunch of things to suggest, criticize, and hopefully applaud.
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It may be that we will not know until the combat module is released for us to try out. Then I suspect we will all of us have a whole bunch of things to suggest, criticize, and hopefully applaud....Will there be Parrying and Reposting options in PFO
Being a little bit EXP in using Martial weapons i would love a game that actualy using them properly. as well as Armor. I can Run in Full plate just as well out of armor.
Amen Being... As it has been in everygame i have been a tester in. They will go with what they like no matter what and you'll either like it and figure out how it works or move on.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Wow I only just noticed this thread - Its really fascinating to me :)
I was the coordinating designer on DF:UW before coming to GW for PFO. I learn so much there about what works and what doesnt and I cant tell you how valuable it has been to me at GW.
A lot of my work at Aventurine was about rationalising and redesigning systems that were struggling, from the 'role' system, to the new GUI, to the achievements system.
Prowess was my attempt to restructure character advancement in a way that was fairer across the board, and the same for Clans. I think it has been fairly well received but it is relatively early days I guess. You can probably see the ghost of Prowess in the Influence system for Companies (most recent blog) but starting designing in pre-produciton rather than introducing a brand new system to a live game gives me the opportunity for much more refinement and iteration. Also, I have you guys to give me feedback :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I tried the beta briefly before prowess was implemented. If prowess was your doing then I'm impressed. It's an extremely good system compared to what we had in beta / the original. No more macros, no more spamming coversions and self-buffs to level them. I do see the ghost of prowess in influence now that you mention it, and that really excites me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Prowess was my attempt to restructure character advancement in a way that was fairer across the board, and the same for Clans. I think it has been fairly well received but it is relatively early days I guess. You can probably see the ghost of Prowess in the Influence system for Companies (most recent blog) but starting designing in pre-produciton rather than introducing a brand new system to a live game gives me the opportunity for much more refinement and iteration. Also, I have you guys to give me feedback :)
Hehe I just mentioned that to Glisenheath last night.
It is one of the nice things about DFUW. Even though it is PVP centric, I have not killed a thing and am making great gains of prowess. It is possible to "opt" out of PVP and still play and contribute and be entertained for many, many, many hours of enjoyment.
The one thing that I would say that I find, is that it encourages grinding...which is fine if you like it (I do). Just glad that some/all of that may be "rethought" for PfO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You can probably see the ghost of Prowess in the Influence system for Companies (most recent blog)...
Absolutely. That's one of the things I really like about DF, except for the grindiness of it. Standing there unable to even turn your head and look around for 8 to 13 minutes while harvesting a resource node is incredibly boring - it's virtually impossible for me to do that without tabbing out to do something else.
A lot of my work at Aventurine was about rationalising and redesigning systems that were struggling, from the 'role' system, to the new GUI, to the achievements system.
We've been pretty hard on the UI design. I suppose a large part of the design there was intended to obscure as little of the view area as possible. I suppose the bag system was designed with an eye towards making the UI interaction to loot someone function as a means of making it take time.
I'd prefer to see a UI that generally looks a lot like WoW's with panels of options and clearly labeled tabs and buttons, rather than a large number of small icons. I'd also prefer to see the system make it take time to loot a corpse by actually making it take time, rather than using the interaction with the UI as a proxy for that.
I'd love to hear about the parts of the system you worked on that you think turned out well, and which parts if any you think would work well in PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd also prefer to see the system make it take time to loot a corpse by actually making it take time, rather than using the interaction with the UI as a proxy for that.
Sometimes when looting a corpse I do wonder if I'm hampered by my relatively low frame rate and high ping. Or the fact that I'm a klutz.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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You can probably see the ghost of Prowess in the Influence system for Companies (most recent blog)...Absolutely. That's one of the things I really like about DF, except for the grindiness of it. Standing there unable to even turn your head and look around for 8 to 13 minutes while harvesting a resource node is incredibly boring - it's virtually impossible for me to do that without tabbing out to do something else.
A lot of my work at Aventurine was about rationalising and redesigning systems that were struggling, from the 'role' system, to the new GUI, to the achievements system.We've been pretty hard on the UI design. I suppose a large part of the design there was intended to obscure as little of the view area as possible. I suppose the bag system was designed with an eye towards making the UI interaction to loot someone function as a means of making it take time.
I'd prefer to see a UI that generally looks a lot like WoW's with panels of options and clearly labeled tabs and buttons, rather than a large number of small icons. I'd also prefer to see the system make it take time to loot a corpse by actually making it take time, rather than using the interaction with the UI as a proxy for that.
I'd love to hear about the parts of the system you worked on that you think turned out well, and which parts if any you think would work well in PFO.
Yeh I completely agree with you and Bringslite about grinding. That was a bit unfortunate and was a sort of side effect of two things - one was the extremely limited options for creating interesting or varied achievements, so we ended up with 'ill 50/100/1million' type things. There is a secondary design for 'later development' of that system that may or may not ever get implemented that winds down the grinding by opening up the kinds of ways to win prowess. Its something we are being super conscious about in PFO. The other issue, weirdly enough, was that grinding was/is considered desirable at Aventurine and more importantly with their Korean partners. They actively WANTED that time sink in there because its very common in the eastern markets.
GUI wise - I am pretty pleased with much of it but there are some serious problems. We had much less time than we needed and only about I'd say 70% of the developments designed were implemented. A whole new system for inventory management never made it into development and as a result we had a front end that no longer worked will with the back end.
I am going to be pretty closely involved with the GUI on PFO but dont panic! I shall be paying close attention to lessons learned in DF. Again we have the benefit of pre-produciton and iteration this time :)
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I saw the dominion/influence parallels already, together with a lot of things that seemed strangely similar.
The only way I see to break the grindiness of resource gathering is to make it a "setup and defend" operation, rather than a continuous gathering setup.
Much could be gained from stealing liberally from SWG, and having things that require wood, other things that require hardwood, and advanced things that require e.g. mohagany. That way there's a way to make higher level stuff harder to source materials for without simply scaling costs upward.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ah! If you are involved with GUI there is a general point I'd like to make about why I despise the UW set-up, and something extremely uncommon I think every skill bar using game needs.
First, the need to select and then activate an ability is 90% of the problem with the DF:UW GUI to me. Everything else can be tollerated even if some of it is frustrating, but when I hit tab to activate my evade (that's what I mapped it to), I want my character to instantly leap forward, not to have to waste my time making an extra click.
2nd, and the one that I expect to be more relevant to PFO, is there needs to be an invisible hotbar/hotbars. These hotbars should only be accessible when I'm dragging things around in GUI mode, but I should be able to hotkey directly to them.
Why? The first thing I do in any new game is start mapping some of my most commonly used abilities / abilities that I need to be able to get to the fastest, to hotkeys. Requiring me to have a visual representation of them somewhere on my screen only clutters things up as I know those abilities reflexively once I've played that build a bit.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Once we got used to the UI it was useful and I can see it could be extraordinarily flexible if there were new elements left to be added. The primary difficulty with it was (and to a lesser degree still is) simple ignorance: DFUW in no way gives enough instruction about what does what.
My biggest gripe so far is that in a twitch PvP game it takes three hands to move, dodge, block and also select which radial wheel I want to reference, and on that radial wheel choose which of eight abilities I wish to use all while targeting during a spinning jump... unless I resort to using a macro.
It was also a bummer trying to outrun someone trying to kill me, a low level, while talking on teamspeak using left ctrl to talk. Left ctrl is by default the 'walk' button in darkfall. My failed attempt to escape was rather... curious.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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If we're getting into specific misfeatures, I'll point out that opening the clan browser or feats list while crafting stops the crafting, because they are all restricted to the left pane.
If I'm going to be restricted to standing still for minutes, let me use all of the UI elements while I wait.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Requiring me to have a visual representation of them somewhere on my screen only clutters things up as I know those abilities reflexively once I've played that build a bit.
I completely agree, and might possibly have already suggested something along these lines. I know I was thinking along these lines when I made some early UI Request threads.
I would very much like to be able to toggle the visual display of pretty much every individual UI element.
I would also very much like to see PFO implement the same kind of UI Save/Load feature that Rift had. I tend to make a lot of customizations, and hate having to manually reapply them for each new character.
Resource gathering, I dont think it should ever be a "stand and wait" instead it should be a mini game, not only does it take time to play a mini game, but your performance in the minigame (perhaps combined with your characters skill) can determine quality of resource gathered.
Takes time,
Isn't boring,
Encourages specializing in harvesting skills,
Helps prevent AFK.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... why not make regular harvesting something more fun and engaging?
Will it be "fun and engaging" after the first 100 times? I'm skeptical of "mini-games" for something that might happen dozens of times in a play session.
Although I'm curious what specific ideas people have for such a mini-game...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the Darkfall UI really needs the ability to record key presses into the function keys, such as <F1>q;1</F1> where pressing an unrecorded <F1> starts recording, then 'q' activates the left radial wheel, the semicolon is the appropriate pause, "1" selects the first ability slot on the active radial, and </F1> is another press of the function key to end the record.