@ Nihimon,
When comes to such minigames, include as much randomization as possible, to keep things from getting overly boring, additionally, design them to be point gathering games so players can contantly be trying to get higher scores.
One of my favorite minigames is the bypass game in mass effect 2. The game is basically a twist on the memory game. There are a number of dots and you have to connect them same symbol dots, you can only see the symbol when scrolling over them however. The neat thing is that the dots are placed on a circut board background, and the connections between each pair always follows the circuits, so I like to challange myself by figuring out the pairs only by looking at the circuit board background.
This game could be made even beter for replayability by giving a random selection of boards of varying complexities, more dots, and having some dots be blank thus forcing you to figure them out the hard way. All three present more options and can vary the difficulty which can be altered by the characters skill and/or that object being harvested.
Of course I havent figured a fantasy fluff for it yet.
Goblin Squad Member
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I see one major obstacle with your mini-game idea and it is this: if you are playing a mini-game while harvesting in an open world PvP environment, you are not paying attention to your surroundings and so you may as well be afk. AFK = A Free Kill under such circumstances, and it would be suicidal to attempt any gathering at all unless you had some serious protection, which would seem to defeat the aim of having individuals being able to harvest stuff too.
I think it's a lovely idea - but I'd rather have a wider field of vision than Darkfall gives me than a mini-game that will give me no visual warning at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I remember someone - it might have even been DLH - suggesting a mini-game of sorts where a caster would have to trace a rune in space in order to cast a spell. While that's a really interesting idea, and could be fun, I don't think it belongs in PFO.
I really hope they don't use the difficulty of interacting with the UI as a means of balancing the game in any way whatsoever.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... I'd rather have a wider field of vision...
I don't expect to see anything like this in PFO, but I've always thought it would be really cool if someone could figure out how to display an image of the world around the character that allowed the player to see in all directions at once - including up and down. Ideally, it would only render the things the character was actually aware of.
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Goblin Squad Member
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btw I suffered an attempt at credit card fraud... someone bought over $2000 in shoes using my numbers. While awaiting my new card I recalled that I would be charged again by Darkfall come Sept 18, so I evaluated the value I have been getting from the game compared to the cost and, while I enjoy you all, the game isn't worth it to me and I can get you all upset enough here for my giggles without that expense.
Enjoy your time there: sorry I missed Ryan's grand entrance.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... the game isn't worth it to me...
I understand. I wouldn't be surprised to see others make the same decision. The game is lacking many of the features that I think we're all looking forward to in PFO to mitigate the "non-fun" aspects of Open World PvP.
I'll probably stick it out at least until it's obvious Ryan isn't planning on joining us if that turns out to be the case.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm hanging in there. The other game I am in right now is Rift, and it is a dullards game. No different from WoW with the very same super steep curve so a character 3-4 levels above you kills you in 2-3 blows. While it was interesting the PvP is laughable. I do like the Rifts, but there isn't enough to allow me to enjoy it much. Although I am earning enough now to buy REX (Rift Exchanges) so I'll see how it goes.
There will be some 30 day drops. But I know a few of us will stick around for at least the next several months.
That brings up a point I was going to make in a new thread...what will we do with the Goblin Squad when we vacate Darkfall? We seem to have two options:
1) Bring in as many new Darkfall players as we can to make a viable clan and play the game as normal, with the expectation that as our year winds down we quietly slip out the back door and leave the Goblin Squad to the remaining players; or
2) Give away all our earned loot and burn it to the ground. We would leave no trace of the Goblin Squad ever being in Agon and any new recruits we bring in would be sent packing. (We would, or course, have an obligation to anyone that joined the clan between now and then that our time is limited and the clan would be disbanded in a year.)
We discussed it in game last night, but wanted to air some opinions in the forums before coming up with a strategy for the players that plan on sticking around until PFO EE.
Air your dirty laundry here....
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am sticking it out also. There is a deep desire to achieve the skills required for some decent payback. Not that it will phaze or teach any of those curs anything. :)
As for what to do with our Phat Lootz, I am of two minds.
1: Give it to the nicest person we can find in the game, preferably a noob, with cautions to "use wisely and with caution" or a good friend like Lord Zanuul.
2: Burn it all Baby!
I do not like the idea of leaving the name Goblin Squad behind without us there.
I see one major obstacle with your mini-game idea and it is this: if you are playing a mini-game while harvesting in an open world PvP environment, you are not paying attention to your surroundings and so you may as well be afk. AFK = A Free Kill under such circumstances, and it would be suicidal to attempt any gathering at all unless you had some serious protection, which would seem to defeat the aim of having individuals being able to harvest stuff too.
I think it's a lovely idea - but I'd rather have a wider field of vision than Darkfall gives me than a mini-game that will give me no visual warning at all.
Mini games can be done in isml in game windows, besides avoiding afk is about avoiding player boredom, not about avoiding payer death. Better to die while enjoying a minigame then to die because I was off doing some thing else while my character harvested without me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I thought we were going to be awarding the actual work of resource gathering to our NPCs?
There are two methods of resource acquisition:
- Harvesting - Harvesting Nodes can be found and exploited by a single character;
- Gathering - Bulk Gathering Sites can be found where Gathering Camps can be established and exploited by Common Folk.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No matter what mini-game they design, as long as it involves set patterns that can be fed into an if/or/and algorithm then someone using AutoHotKey can design an undetectable script that will quickly scan the screen for certain pixel colors and based off of the coordinates of those colors solve your mini-games and give that person a very effective solver.
I would be happy if they let us browse skill menus, manage inventory etc. while harvesting.
No matter what mini-game they design, as long as it involves set patterns that can be fed into an if/or/and algorithm then someone using AutoHotKey can design an undetectable script that will quickly scan the screen for certain pixel colors and based off of the coordinates of those colors solve your mini-games and give that person a very effective solver.
That requires all needed info being visible at the same time, games like memory would be more difficult. Then again, despite difficulty, it is technically possible to make AI bots that can play through any game that doesnt require social interaction with real people.
Either way, it is an arguement that can be made against any suggestion, the only variable being difficulty, thus it isnt a very strong arguement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Notes from the Cook,
While chopping wood in Sanguine this morning (yes, I finally left our starter city), I was monitoring Global Chat, looking for those few and far between points of light. I spotted some intelligent comments made from one Turalton Nightspire (a more imaginative and apropos name than most in DF) and sent him a PM. I asked if he knew anyone who might care to buy raw materials from me so as to earn our merry band some extra coin.
We got to chatting, he learned of PFO, and we talked for the next 45 minutes. By the end, he had looked up the game and was intrigued enough to possibly pop onto this forum. His final gesture was to gift me a sack of 45 small treasure maps. He estimates that we could make perhaps 100k from them, which might do well to boost our clan funds which stand at just a little over 7k currently. His suggestion was that we keep them in the clan bank, and stop every time we hit a new town to see which maps are near that location for expedient digging.
His clan is a 7 member group of long time gaming friends called Rise of Mayhem. With Hardin out on vacation, I'll leave it to the other GS clan leader types to establish diplomatic relations.
The lesson - there are good people in DF, often tired of the depressing, toxic community, but unwilling to give up their friends who are holding out for a better game in the future. We just need to look for them, reach out and enjoy their company, and possibly convert them to PFO.
A final word...meat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No matter what mini-game they design, as long as it involves set patterns that can be fed into an if/or/and algorithm then someone using AutoHotKey can design an undetectable script that will quickly scan the screen for certain pixel colors and based off of the coordinates of those colors solve your mini-games and give that person a very effective solver.That requires all needed info being visible at the same time, games like memory would be more difficult. Then again, despite difficulty, it is technically possible to make AI bots that can play through any game that doesnt require social interaction with real people.
Either way, it is an arguement that can be made against any suggestion, the only variable being difficulty, thus it isnt a very strong arguement.
The way I see it, if the market demands a bot for a system, then that should be either: 1) redesigned so that it's fun enough that no one wants the bot (virtually impossible); or 2) redesigned so that it can be done while the player is offline (or occupied with something else).
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Goblin Squad Member
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The way I see it, if the market demands a bot for a system, then that should be either: 1) redesigned so that it's fun enough that no one wants the bot (virtually impossible); or 2) redesigned so that it can be done while the player is offline (or occupied with something else).
And that's how building construction, for example, will likely be handled. The player chooses to be part of the labor pool for a building project, and then goes out adventuring. He's assumed to be working during his downtime. He doesn't need to log in and spend 6 hours in a repetitious task.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As far as I am aware, Glistenheath has left Nihimon in Charge and given such powers to Urman before he went on vacation.
This is not to say that you two Gentlemen are in any way obligated to act in the political arena, but rather that you are all set to do so, should you see opportunity.
I admit that there are some ramifications to the whole alliance structure in Darkfall and that memories are long. We however will not be there for a terribly long time, so I doubt that you could do Goblin Squad much harm.
You both have exceedingly fine minds and I will support and back any initiatives that you might see as beneficial. Like Glistenheath's, my faith is in you two, to do or not do as you see fit in that area.
I am often in-game and offer my aid in organizing any group efforts to gain phat lootz and get our "Youngers" prowess. Just let me know what I can do.
:)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I did run a charity fund for new players and Pked/looted bare players in UO...but no - I'm not planning to provide health care in PFO. As for health insurance, that'll more likely be in the form of big, bruiserish guys with thick armor and pointy weapons. I'm not supplying those either.
The way I see it, if the market demands a bot for a system, then that should be either: 1) redesigned so that it's fun enough that no one wants the bot (virtually impossible); or 2) redesigned so that it can be done while the player is offline (or occupied with something else).No matter what mini-game they design, as long as it involves set patterns that can be fed into an if/or/and algorithm then someone using AutoHotKey can design an undetectable script that will quickly scan the screen for certain pixel colors and based off of the coordinates of those colors solve your mini-games and give that person a very effective solver.That requires all needed info being visible at the same time, games like memory would be more difficult. Then again, despite difficulty, it is technically possible to make AI bots that can play through any game that doesnt require social interaction with real people.
Either way, it is an arguement that can be made against any suggestion, the only variable being difficulty, thus it isnt a very strong arguement.
That is way I want minigames, they are keeping players engaged rather then bored while waiting. Boredom increases the desire for bots. Granted, poorly designed minigames can be boring too, but far less so then watching a progress bar.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It has to be a really interesting mini-game, and I mean amazingly so, or it will keep a few people engaged but most will get annoyed with having to do it after the first few times. Crafting tends to be repetitious enough that it doesn't need the "help" from mini games to make it worse.
If I want mini games, I'll play solitaire or something like that while I wait for the crafting to finish. And if it's put in as a way of boosting quality of the finished item, I'll bot it. Most will.
There are only three possibilities though, minigames, bored waiting on a progress bar, or always instant results.
I find the bored waiting to be the least desirable, but that is personal preference.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Made it safe and sound. Can't play but I can post!
Darkfall does many things well. Water looks great on the surface, and swimming is appropriately fatiguing. But there is nothing in the water at all (well, a Kraken), but that's over a third of the map wasted.
Crafting could be SO much, but they do not seem to be interested in any crafting that is not directly or indirectly related to PvP, which is a shame. Adventurine has fully invested itself in the "All PvP with full loot" audience, but that is a super small niche crowd that is shrinking in their game, and they have alienated other gamers in support of the PvP/full loot scheme.
Even though all of us who have played Darkfall even for a little while agree prowess gains are slow, it is too fast to keep a large, devoted player base invested for more than a few months. With the super slow advancement PFO expects to have, players will need many things to do to occupy their game time besides banging on rocks or chopping at a tree for 6 hours at a time.
Unless I have misinterpreted previous blogs and posts, crafting mastery will take about the same amount of time as a class mastery (2 1/2 years supposedly). That's a lot of game time to fill even if the player is a casual.
perhaps collecting could be more active if you have to aim the ressource area wich became more tiny with the time ( if you harvest out of the ressource, you tool could loose durability or broke sudenly)
you could activate a special harvesting skill that make you more accurate
or one that give you short endurance to collect more ressources each time
or special skill that allow you to get more raffined ressources but that reduce the total amount of ressource spot.
or beeing attacked by parasites, or insects or vegetal effects during harvesting if you're not reactive, accurate, in good health etc etc
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are only three possibilities though, minigames, bored waiting on a progress bar, or always instant results.
There is another possibility: "Set and Forget". You start the crafting session, then go do whatever you want to do in-game while that finishes. If there are logjams you need to clear, you can go back and do that.
I believe this is essentially Ryan's vision.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hear you, Nihimon. In Darkfall, though, I'm not sure what people do when they aren't harvesting and crafting. I mean, some of them are wandering around looking for harvesters and crafters to gank, but if those tasks took less time then the gank-window would decrease. Some of them are grinding kills on PvE mobs. But if xp/prowess were time driven, they wouldn't need to do that. I think with set-and-forget crafting, and time-driven xp, Darkfall would be even emptier.
PFO's harvesting-attracts-mobs idea might bypass this. Some number of characters are going to be needed to actively guard the larger harvest sites. I'm imagining something like a site defense mission in a theme-park game, but there's likely many ways to do it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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With regard to gathering I feel they have really missed a trick with the limited number of resources. I do like the fact that cotton, iron and wood are useful all the way up the chain - but surely they could do more, especially as they have so many different models for them in game?
As for the crafting, especially salvaging, when I see that my metal salvage bag is going to take 28 minutes (and I have another that needs doing at the crafting bench) a little bit of me dies inside. That's 30 minutes in game effectively doing nothing. Where's the fun in that?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Where's the fun in that?
I'm looking for where I read it, but Aventurine's apparently left in (or put in) the grind at least in part because of expectations in their Asian market(s). Higher tolerance for grind means fewer resources need be spent by developers on...anything, really.
Since they are doing exp based on timeincluding while logged off, if they feel they cant give near instant results then they should let you tag resources instantly, but the goods dont become available until a certain time has passed while logged off, and the player keep playing while logged in.
The only thing I dislike about this is that it severly seperates the player from the result, making it feel as though the player didnt have anything to do with it. Similar to the issue some crafters had when they found out they wouldnt be crafting anything but rather they would just order their npc assitants around. It just doesnt feel like the player can claim to be a master crafter, more like just owning other people who do the crafting.
Ok, so I cant express it clearly but I hope you understand my point.
There are only three possibilities though, minigames, bored waiting on a progress bar, or always instant results.There is another possibility: "Set and Forget". You start the crafting session, then go do whatever you want to do in-game while that finishes. If there are logjams you need to clear, you can go back and do that.
I believe this is essentially Ryan's vision.
I guess that could be argued as a fourth possibility, but you are still having to wait on and like my last post, it puts a wall of seperation there so it doesnt feel like the character had anything to do with it, thus might as well make it instant at that point.
Perhaps I should ask, what is the point of making resource gathering/crafting/etc take time? Why do we not want it to be nearly instant?
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Goblin Squad Member
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... what is the point of making resource gathering/crafting/etc take time?
I believe the main justification is to control the faucet. It especially makes sense with Crafters, where you might want it to take a Week of Real Time to construct a particular Siege Engine. Balancing those various time constraints might have a very significant impact on how we play the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are only three possibilities though, minigames, bored waiting on a progress bar, or always instant results.
I find the bored waiting to be the least desirable, but that is personal preference.
#4 play mini games on your phone. #5 learn to play the violin while you watch the screen waiting for crafting. #6 do anything else other than play the same mindless mini games over and over. ANYTHING.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why do we not want it to be nearly instant?
To allow for meaningful human interaction with the people who don't want you to have those resources, and your friends when they come to your distress call during that interaction, and then the bandits' friends, and then the war that accidentally began over a bit of iron ore...
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Goblin Squad Member
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As for Harvesting Nodes (as opposed to the semi-automated Bulk Gathering Sites), I personally wouldn't mind if it didn't take any longer - in real time - than it would take to loot the same things off a player corpse.
In general, I think that things that you're expected to do while standing there should be very quick, even 3 seconds feels like an eternity. On the other side, things that you want to take a long time should be doable while offline.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The time required to do and accomplish/build things is, IMO, the important factor here. Requiring time to accumulate or craft things makes them even more valuable. Yet it is certainly frustrating, for some, to have to sit at a spot and be fully engaged in that and no other activity.
The only draw back that I can see to "set and forget" is that it may greatly increase the number of crafters. Will this end with everyone dabbling into it just to be competitive? If they do, will that lessen the uniqueness of those careers?
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Goblin Squad Member
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The only draw back that I can see to "set and forget" is that it may greatly increase the number of crafters.
I'm not so sure. I think Stephen Cheney really nailed it.
Consider Darkfall. Do you really think there would be a lot of Crafters of any type at all if you had to spend Prowess to advance even your basic Crafting skills?
I think PFO will go a long way towards separating out the casual crafters who only craft because it's a big hole on their character sheets.