RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I was just posting my own thread about this, but I guess one is enough ;)
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/13222683#13222683
(reference to BGG-thread)
My take is that he cannot; he "does not have the melee skill, and there is no weapon played that could add the melee trait, otherwise he could not replace the die. It is a dexterity combat check with no further traits (assuming the power is not upgraded and no further cards are played). Melee does not mean "any attack that is not ranged", it is a specific keyword added to the attack." (quoted myself from the thread)
While I feel confident in this assessment, I wanted to ask for official clarification to make sure that that is the intent.
It would be a Dexterity-based Combat check. I suppose it is true that it wouldn't gain the Melee trait, though I would argue that any other character attacking using their Strength dice with no weapon is still using a Melee attack. If Lini was to smack a zombie without a weapon or spell, using her Strength dice (d4 or d10 if she discards a card) I would still call that a Strength-based Melee check. But, technically, you're correct, the Amulet of Mighty Fists doesn't add the Melee trait.
I'll throw my 2 cent guess into this :)
My interpretation (probably wrong) is that playing the amulet adds the Magic trait to Sajan's Strength check for combat then his ability converts the Strength to a Dexterity check.
My only out on this one is that the rules say "Play Cards" first then "Use Character Powers"
There's no such thing as a Strength combat check.
It's Melee Combat as opposed to Ranged.
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That's not entirely true according to the rulebook on page 11 last paragraph of determine which die you are using.
It says if you do not play a weapon or some other card use your strength or melee skill when you attempt a combat check.
The most important part is the "or"
So any character can make a combat check if they do not have the melee skill, or a weapon in hand. They just use there strength skill. At the very least it's d4 strength for some characters.
I think we are correct that it can be used in this situation the only thing is the details of how.
Pg. 11 of rule book says when making a combat check if you don't play a weapon card use your Strength or Melee skill. Sajan does not have Melee but he has Strength and so the modification from the amulet and then conversion from his power should work.
Again, just guessing so suppose we wait for an official answer :)
If Sajan doesn't have Melee listed as one of his skills, he can't make a Melee attack. His default attack would have to be STR as per the rules.
I agree with Kevin Fernandes. It would seem the card gets played first, affects the STR roll, then Sajan's character power would convert that into a DEX die. If only for the fact that it would indeed be a subpar card for Sajan's starting decklist if otherwise.
Edit: I was typing as Kevin was, so I was agreeing with his prior post at the time.
What's interesting about Sajan's power is that it says to use his dexterity die instead of his strength die. It does not say to replace one skill with the other. So it is starting to sound like it is still a strength check, but he is using his dex die instead. So the amulet will give him an extra d4 to the strength check where he roles a d10 instead of d6.
I'm starting to be convinced. It's a really good question. Looking forward to the official response.
I agree with Tracker1 on this, it just replaces the die, it does not change the check IMO.
Just a little more fuel to the fire.
Sajan has two blessings in his hand. Gorum, add 2 dice to a strength based combat check and Erastil, add 2 dice to a dexterity based combat check.
Which one should he play to get to get 2 extra dice to the combat check when he attacks without a weapon.
I guess the question is; does his ability make it a dexterity-based combat check?
If it is dexterity based then the amulet will not give him the d4, and he should use Erastil. If it is still a strength based combat check then he can use the amulet and play Gorum.
One confusing thing is that if he uses either of these blessings during this situation. He will be rolling his d10 dex die. Although, I'm uncertain he can play Erastil. Since i think the logic of it leans more towards Gorum and it's a strength based check using his dex die. i don't think it's a check based on his dexterity skill, it seems to just use the die.
Lol, that does make it interesting. I read it as a strength based check that is using his dex die and therefor Gorum would work. Though i don't know how confident I feel about it.
Because of PAX, we haven't had a chance to get official answers together. But the intent of the card is for Sajan to be able to play it on his combat checks, even when rolling his Dexterity die.
Mike
Reveal this card to add 1d4 with the Magic trait to your combat check; you may not play a spell with the Attack trait or a weapon on this check."You"?
Is this supposed to prevent all players from playing a spell on this check?
You can only ever have one card that says "for your combat check..." Any player could still play Strength or Guidance on you if they decided they wanted to... you could play it on yourself as well. I don't think I can think of a single "attack" spell that you can cast FOR someone else.
Chief Technical Officer
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"You" in this game always means only YOU—the person playing the card. So YOU can play the amulet to help YOUR combat check, not anybody else's, and YOU can't play spells with the Attack trait or weapons on that check, but there's nothing preventing others from playing spells on that check.
Not an Amulet of Fists question, but emerged from the topic.
If Sajan uses his power to roll dex die rather than str. Which Blessing is the correct one to play Gorum or Erastril?
Thanks, and I hope this is also covered in the Faq, i've seen it come up in multiple threads at BGG forums as well.
"You" in this game always means only YOU—the person playing the card. So YOU can play the amulet to help YOUR combat check, not anybody else's, and YOU can't play spells with the Attack trait or weapons on that check, but there's nothing preventing others from playing spells on that check.
Sorry, this made me grin. Ya YOU over dere, whatch'YOU lookin at? Can I not think of it in some existential term?
On an unrealted note, can we have a redneck gobin at some point and then maybe the game can use the term Y'ALL. You can recharge it and Y'all can come back now, ya hear?
Sorry, I'll stop now. I think Vic deserves a drink.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Not an Amulet of Fists question, but emerged from the topic.
If Sajan uses his power to roll dex die rather than str. Which Blessing is the correct one to play Gorum or Erastril?
Thanks, and I hope this is also covered in the Faq, i've seen it come up in multiple threads at BGG forums as well.
Yeah, we'll have that in the FAQ. "Dexterity-based check" means "a check using your Dexterity die," so he wants Erastil, not Gorum.
Wow. Mind blown by that response. So basically you made a card SPECIFICALLY for Sajan's unarmed combat, and now you're saying it's worded completely wrong AND that his power changes the TYPE of check. Just wow. I'm going to have a tough time explaining all this to my Sajan player come Sunday.
Wow. Mind blown by that response. So basically you made a card SPECIFICALLY for Sajan's unarmed combat, and now you're saying it's worded completely wrong AND that his power changes the TYPE of check. Just wow. I'm going to have a tough time explaining all this to my Sajan player come Sunday.
We'll I'm not sure it's that big of a deal, since the Amulet just says combat now, so he can use Erastril with it just fine. It would only be an issue if the amulet was still strength or melee.
If I'm interpreting it correctly i'm satisfied.
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Chief Technical Officer
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...his power changes the TYPE of check.
Nothing is changing the type of check—it's still a combat check. It's just that while most people can use only Strength or Melee for a combat check (unless they use a weapon or other card to change it), Sajan can use Strength (d6), Melee (d4), *or* Dexterity (d10). And if he's using his Dexterity, of course he wants the blessing that helps his Dexterity....
I think I see what's going on here. The card says "you may use your Dexterity die instead of your Strength die," and that's exactly what we mean, but some people seem to be reading it as "...you may use your Dexterity die as your Strength die." To be clear, Sajan's power does not give him a Strength of d10; it lets him use his Dexterity die in a situation where he otherwise couldn't.
I suppose we *could* have worded that power to sound more like weapons: "For your combat check, you may roll your Dexterity die, but you may not play a weapon on the check."
I think I see what's going on here. The card says "you may use your Dexterity die instead of your Strength die," and that's exactly what we mean, but some people seem to be reading it as "...you may use your Dexterity die as your Strength die."
That was my reading of it (at one point anyhow, I've vacillated a bit on this one). Even your distinguishing between "combat check" vs "melee check" was not something I'd really internalised. Thanks for clarifying.
FWIW, I think a more nuanced 'terminology' document would be useful in future base sets (or in a reprint). Something along the lines of:
"If a card says <short, snappy sentence> it means <longer paragraph, with perhaps an example>"
"When you read <common phrase> take it as <explanatory sentence>"
and that kind of thing. I think it would be tedious within the rulebook, but as a standalone, loose sheet I think it would be valuable for when those weird combinations come up.
Yeah, we'll have that in the FAQ. "Dexterity-based check" means "a check using your Dexterity die," so he wants Erastil, not Gorum.Not an Amulet of Fists question, but emerged from the topic.
If Sajan uses his power to roll dex die rather than str. Which Blessing is the correct one to play Gorum or Erastril?
Thanks, and I hope this is also covered in the Faq, i've seen it come up in multiple threads at BGG forums as well.
Sorry, I dont have the game cards with me, so im a little confused still. Could someone please say what the text is on Erastil and Gorum is so i can apply what hes saying..
Blessing of gorum adds to a strength based combat check, blessing of Erastil to a Dexterity based combat check, so if Sajan use his power to uses his dex die rather then strength die for a combat check he should use Blessing of Erastil for 2 extra Dex dice.
...his power changes the TYPE of check.Nothing is changing the type of check—it's still a combat check. It's just that while most people can use only Strength or Melee for a combat check (unless they use a weapon or other card to change it), Sajan can use Strength (d6), Melee (d4), *or* Dexterity (d10). And if he's using his Dexterity, of course he wants the blessing that helps his Dexterity....
I think I see what's going on here. The card says "you may use your Dexterity die instead of your Strength die," and that's exactly what we mean, but some people seem to be reading it as "...you may use your Dexterity die as your Strength die." To be clear, Sajan's power does not give him a Strength of d10; it lets him use his Dexterity die in a situation where he otherwise couldn't.
I suppose we *could* have worded that power to sound more like weapons: "For your combat check, you may roll your Dexterity die, but you may not play a weapon on the check."
Yes, Vic, that is how I was reading it. Since an unarmed combat check is normally based on Strength, I was reading it as substituting the d10 for the d6. I never thought it gave him a Strength of d10 for noncombat purposes. But now, with this clarification, you're saying his unarmed combat check is dexterity based, which makes sense based on martial arts, but doesn't make sense within the structure of the rules.
So, yes, it probably would have been better to word it to sound more like a weapon.
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Chief Technical Officer
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But now, with this clarification, you're saying his unarmed combat check is dexterity based, which makes sense based on martial arts, but doesn't make sense within the structure of the rules.
Sure it does.
Most monsters can be defeated with a combat check. Weapons and many other cards that can be used during combat generally
tell you what skill to use when you attempt a combat check; if you don’t play such a card, use your Strength or Melee skill.
Sajan's power is telling you that you may use Dexterity when you attempt a combat check without a weapon, and it's even doing it using the same "when you attempt a combat check" verbiage that the rules use. Perhaps the error was including the phrase "instead of your Strength die," which is thematically useful, but mechanically irrelevant.
Personally, I feel the issue is with the word die. Once again, that word is causing confusion. Why couldn't the power just be "you can use dexterity for combat checks". To me, there is a difference between the dexterity skill and the dexterity die. But perhaps that's where I am wrong.
So to follow up on this thought.
It seems to me that the real problem is the difference between when the word die is used in the context of a CHECK and when it is used in the context of ADDING to the check. We have to reconcile the following:
1) Vic says above that "use your dexterity die" means "use your dexterity skill". You are now doing a dexterity based combat check. That also means that using a Spell such as Force Missile, which tells you to use your Arcane die for the CHECK, also means that you are now doing an Arcane combat check.
2) We have also confirmed earlier that when using a blessing that ADDS to your check, you do NOT get multiples of your skill bonus. Therefore, you are not using your skill, you are just adding a die to the skill you already set in the first step.
So, to summarize. During the "determine the skill you are using" step, if you see the word die on the power or the card you are using, take it to literally mean "this is the type of check you are doing now". During the play cards/use powers step, the word die here literally means "die". Simply add or subtract from the base skill die you are using.
If this is accurate, it clears up a ton of confusion I've had. I also think we could close the "what is a die" thread. Personally, I feel that cards that you play during step 1 of the check (weapons, spells, etc) and powers your character has, should never use the word "die". They should, instead, say "skill". Like I said in my post above, how much easier would this have been to understand if Sajan's power was simply "You can use Dexterity for Combat Checks". Done. Now everyone knows that its a Dexterity based check and Blessings that change Dexterity are the ones you want to use. Similarly, reword force missing to say "For your Combat Check, discard this card to use your Arcane skill + 2d4....", and now everyone knows that using Force Missile means you are now doing an Arcane check.
Personally, I feel the issue is with the word die. Once again, that word is causing confusion. Why couldn't the power just be "you can use dexterity for combat checks". To me, there is a difference between the dexterity skill and the dexterity die. But perhaps that's where I am wrong.No, I think you've hit the nail on the head. It's unfortunate that the word 'die' is overloaded like that, but it's usually easy enough to figure out what is intended from the context (basically when a card talks about 'adding' a die, then it's the actual die without modifiers, when it talks about 'rolling' the die, then it's the skill with modifiers.)
Totally agree. See my follow up.
The way to think of it is that each check has a type. For combat, the default type is Strength/Melee. Meaning you punch guys. If there wasn't a default type, you couldn't fight. You can play weapons and spells and items to switch that type. A bow switches it to ranged; a force missile, arcane, etc.
Sajan's power is just like one of these cards, switching the type to Dexterity.
Here is the part of the rules where this is, sort of, spelled out:
Most monsters can be defeated with a combat check. Weapons
and many other cards that can be used during combat generally
tell you what skill to use when you attempt a combat check; if you
don’t play such a card, use your Strength or Melee skill
It's actually a Strength check or Melee Combat Check (not a Strength Combat Check). Melee as opposed to Ranged.
Apparantly not. An attack only counts as "melee" if it has acquired the melee trait - from a skill, form a weapon, from another card. Sajan's dex-based combat isn't labelled as melee, so it isn't melee. Time for us monks to throw away our allied soldiers :(
No, nothing in the rule book or card says that it does. For that matter, nowhere ever says that the Melee skill has the 'Melee' trait, either.
To be clear - the skill you're using as the base for your check DOES add its name as a trait to the check. E.g. if you've chosen MELEE as the basis for a combat check and your MELEE is "STR + 2" then your check already has the traits:
- combat
- strength
- melee
Playing weapons, powers or other boons onto the check may then add extra traits.
It has already been stated in other threads that when Sajan uses his ability to change his STR die for his DEX die, that everything stays the same. So if he uses the Amulet, it would still be a Melee check, with the Magic Trait, but just using his DEX die, instead of his STR die.
New wording from FAQ on the amulet
"Reveal this card to add 1d4 with the Magic trait to your combat check; you may not play a spell with the Attack trait or a weapon on this check."
The card just refers to a combat check, and so does his power to use DEX die instead of his STR die.
His Combat check has nothing to do with Melee, and if he is not allowed to play a weapon while using his power or the Amulet, then there is practically no way he can get the Melee trait to be part of his combat check .
Unless I'm missing something.
Well, everything stays the same except it's now a DEX-based check not a STR-based check (so you need to play powers/boons that affect DEX).
@Tracker1 - does the Amulet itself have the Melee trait? I don't have the cards to hand...
@Tracker1 - does the Amulet itself have the Melee trait? I don't have the cards to hand...
No. The traits are Magic, Accessory, Basic.