What kind (size and brand, that is) of card sleeves would everyone recommend to use with the cards? And, more importantly, will the cards still fit in the tray while in sleeves?
Thanks
Just regular sized card sleeves will work. Couldn't tell you what brand though since the ones I have are just the cheap ones. I only use them for the location cards and the character cards. As for fitting inside the tray, they do but not all that well. I'm sure there are some better quality ones that would fit better.
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I'm using Magic-sized Ultra Pros on the cards and they fit fine. Currently, everything still fits in the slots except for the Blessing deck. However, I'm guessing that somewhere around Adventure pack 3 or 4, I'm going to run out of space in the tray.
Having said that, if you want good quality sleeves, Magic-sized Ultra Pros are probably not your best bet. I went with cheap sleeves on purpose because I have a tendency to break sleeves no matter what.
I would love to see Pathfinder art card sleeves. :)
That would be nice, but it wouldn't work for the character or build cards which are double-sided.
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Clear sleeves would be good for the location cards, character cards, and the adventure path/adventure cards, but I really prefer solid backing for main cards. The reason for this is that I fully expect* that soon there will be fan expansions for the game and I will be printing out cards and putting them in sleeves in front of other cards, and I don't want the paper to be showing through the back. My plan is to use dummy Magic cards as backing for the custom cards, but I think they have slightly different thickness, so that might not be too helpful.
*and by "fully expect" I mean I already have plans to write custom scenarios. I'm just waiting to see if anyone comes up with a card template or if I'm going to have to do that and for Mike's blog post about making custom cards in the game.
what size FFG sleeves is it regular size =}
Chief Technical Officer
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The cards are standard poker/TCG size... but I do not recommend you sleeve them.
The first problem is volume: if you wanted to keep *all* your cards sleeved, assuming you purchase all the expansions, we're talking 1025 sleeves just for the cards with standard backs. There are another 130 double-sided cards which would either need clear sleeves or no sleeves.
The second problem is that the box contains a tray that's designed to hold all of the cards, and using the tray dramatically speeds up the setup process. If you sleeve your cards, they'd no longer fit in the tray, so storing, organizing, and setting up the game would all become dramatically suckier... unless you're crafty enough to build your own jumbo replacement tray, which would need to be *very* large.
If you just want to sleeve the cards that you're going to use in a single session, you'd still need hundreds of sleeves (the actual number varies by the number of players), and sleeving and unsleeving those hundreds of cards would add a *lot* of time to setup and putaway. Even if you're enthusiastic about sleeves, I think you would tire of this quickly.
If you just want to sleeve your character deck and nothing else, that's a bit more feasible. Depending on your character's advancement, you begin a scenario with 15 to 25 cards, but you'll be adding cards to and removing cards from your deck as you play; every time you acquire a card or lose a card, you'll need to sleeve/unsleeve it. There's no limit to the number of cards you may have in your deck during a session, so even if you start with 25 cards, you could have 35 or more in your deck during play. (You could probably manage to do all your sleeve manipulation during other player's turns.)
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Vic, I hear you on the fact that it's a lot to sleeve - but I'm sure that people will be coming out soon with custom scenarios with custom henchmen, custom villians, and certainly custom banes and boons. My usual way of getting around this is to sleeve all the cards, grab some dummy cards and sleeve over them paper cutouts of the custom cards. I realize that for villians and henchmen it might be easy to just use Black Fang + Ancient Skeletons as stand-ins, but for random boons/banes it's going to be harder.
Besides, those of us who compulsively sleeve are used to coming up with creative ways to rearrange cards. My Mansions of Madness Set has all sorts of organization that the original game doesn't have, and I needed a lot of that because I sleeved everything.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I'm not telling you not to do it—I'm just telling you that that decision comes with some pain, or at least requires some creativity on your part! You sound like a creative guy as far as this type of thing goes, but others looking in on this thread may benefit from being warned off.
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I'll try not to go all Anti-Vic [as the last guy seemed to want to do], but yea sleeving for me at least is mandatory. I've only played about a dozen or so games and I am already seeing wear and tear on some cards. I was able to pick up 1000 sleeves for $16 with S/H and have no problems still using the box for the cards we have right now. I can see there will be a problem using the insert, but it is perfectly fine for the lay person. Someone that might play it casually. It is a long standing tradition to make your own inserts for game boxes for games you play a lot.
I think the box and great....just not for me. Not to say that there is anything wrong with using it.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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The cards are standard poker/TCG size... but I do not recommend you sleeve them.
The first problem is volume: if you wanted to keep *all* your cards sleeved, assuming you purchase all the expansions, we're talking 1025 sleeves just for the cards with standard backs. There are another 130 double-sided cards which would either need clear sleeves or no sleeves.
The second problem is that the box contains a tray that's designed to hold all of the cards, and using the tray dramatically speeds up the setup process. If you sleeve your cards, they'd no longer fit in the tray, so storing, organizing, and setting up the game would all become dramatically suckier... unless you're crafty enough to build your own jumbo replacement tray, which would need to be *very* large.
If you just want to sleeve the cards that you're going to use in a single session, you'd still need hundreds of sleeves (the actual number varies by the number of players), and sleeving and unsleeving those hundreds of cards would add a *lot* of time to setup and putaway. Even if you're enthusiastic about sleeves, I think you would tire of this quickly.
If you just want to sleeve your character deck and nothing else, that's a bit more feasible. Depending on your character's advancement, you begin a scenario with 15 to 25 cards, but you'll be adding cards to and removing cards from your deck as you play; every time you acquire a card or lose a card, you'll need to sleeve/unsleeve it. There's no limit to the number of cards you may have in your deck during a session, so even if you start with 25 cards, you could have 35 or more in your deck during play. (You could probably manage to do all your sleeve manipulation during other player's turns.)
Vic, I have seen you post things like this mutiple times now, and none of it is close to true. They way you defend the box and insert makes me wonder if it saved your puppy or something.
I will be sleeving this game, just like I sleeve all my games. With clear penny...
Rob, why would you essentially attack the creator of the game because he's recommending playing the game he helped create as it was intended? This was unnecessary. If you want to sleeve your cards, go ahead, but Vic has every right to suggest to others that they will get more use out of the packaging without sleeving them.
In the future, think a little more before you post. Seriously.
I think you make some good points (especially around the cards designed to be written on). However, Vic's argument isnt really "inaccurate" so much as describing a different perspective from yours. (I think the insert is awesome, for example - other card games with expansions I've played have really suffered from not thinking it through right from the start). Things like that arent really right or wrong.
He's quite right to point out that if you sleeve the cards you can't use the tray they provided and he's quite right that if you go that route, you'll need to somehow solve the issue of making the game quick to set up.
Obviously there are solutions, but I (for one) appreciated the comments, since I was planning on sleeving the cards but shelved the idea after reading his comments (I'd never considered the issue of space). No doubt if he'd said nothing I'd have realised the issue after about three expansions and then had to unsleeve everything.
It seems you took Vic to be sticking his fingers in his ears saying 'there's no problem, there's no problem, there's no problem' when I think all he was trying to do was explain to people how the game is designed - the issue of efficient storage is easy to miss, since the box currently has heaps of space. I didnt really take him to be saying "Don't use sleeves" so much as "The game isnt designed for the cards to be sleeved".
Also, it isn't really a "game" design thing, it's a storage solution. The game design has been great.
Well yeah - I was speaking sloppily. I think his point was "The box and insert will hold the first half dozen expansions, but isnt designed for the cards to be sleeved".
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Chief Technical Officer
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dustbunnyrob,
The fact is that proving a useful and easy way to organize your cards is essential to this game, as good card organization drastically reduces setup time, and that increases fun.
I've said several times that if you want to sleeve, you can do that—but the price you pay is that you then have to come up with your own storage solution, as the one we've provided is eventually going to stop working for you. You are clearly willing to go to that effort, and good for you, but I'm confident that the number of people who would prefer to avoid that effort is larger than the number of people who will choose to do it.
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I sleeved my basic and character expansion decks. With the exception of the blessing cards, everything fit in the slots available with room to spare. My plan is to only sleeve the Adventure Path cards only when I run them and take them out when I finish. I will use the same set of sleeves for all the APs.
I couldn't imagine NOT sleeving these cards. Even after just a couple of plays they started to show signs of wear. We'll find a way to manage storage if it will extend the life of the cards.
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You are clearly willing to go to that effort, and good for you, but I'm confident that the number of people who would prefer to avoid that effort is larger than the number of people who will choose to do it.
I think dustbunnyrob's point is that this sort of confidence may not be warranted. Without hard numbers backing anyone up here, it's hard to say. I personally would be extremely cautious about expressing any particular level of confidence regarding the quantitative preferences of a target market unless I had at least 400 responses to a survey of a random (e.g., not self-selected, as in a poll run on a home page or message board) sample. A 50% majority one way or the other also doesn't necessarily mean that the box insert shouldn't be made; depends on how the "sleevers" calculate value.
For the record, I sleeved. But don't make any decisions based on that anecdotal evidence, please :)
Great game; thanks for publishing it, and thanks for being willing to mix it up on the forums. It speaks very favorably of you and your company, Vic.
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I say for future Basic boxes, have the whole box slotted and each slot able to hold 50-75 cards that you can customize to what you need, (no matter the card type), with room to have Adventure Deck boxes lay on top of the rows able to fit in empty areas. The deck boxes should be made to be able to collapse easily for easy storage when empty. They can then lay on top of the cards until needed.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I say for future Basic boxes, have the whole box slotted and each slot able to hold 50-75 cards that you can customize to what you need, (no matter the card type) ...
Frankly, I'd be very frustrated with that box. There are 21 loot cards in RotR, and I don't want to have to put them in a slot where they're flopping around, or a slot where I have to mix them with other cards to keep them from doing so. On the other end of the spectrum, there are several hundred monster cards in the set, and when I have to seed a location with random monsters, I don't want to have to draw them from several different slots. Having them all in one slot means I can set the game up faster, and that means I can move on to the fun part sooner.
Fwiw, I wouldn't change it. I really liked the insert. My only (tiny) gripe was the little tray holding the dice - I can't get them out easily.
There are 21 loot cards in RotR
How many should we have so far? Just one?
Cheers.
Looking forward to more - seeing it all alone in it's tray kind of felt like the DM was being stingy.
Don't change the box. Seriously. I wish other card games of this type (I'm looking at you LoTR LCG) did a box like this. Long slots with card dividers just adds a ton of setup time. If that's the style you want, remove the insert, get some foam, and print out some dividers.
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For those that are trying to sleeve, I read somewhere that the Ultra-Pro standard size Pro Fit sleeves would work better as they are narrower and shorter, but they were VERY difficult to put on and have cupped many of the cards so that they do not lay flat. I am hopeful that with play the sleeves will stretch a bit and the cards will re-flatten, but I would not recommend them at this point.
Here is the base set with the character expansion for reference once sleeved.
KMC "perfect fit" sleeves are similar - very tight to put on (I *almost* wrecked one card, but caught it before it bent too far), and leave the cards slightly cupped. But the sleeves "relax" a little over time, so 48 hours after sleeving my cards are indeed a perfect fit in the sleeves.
I might return to the box later on in the story arc, but right now I have all my cards sleeved and stored in a carry-case half the size of the original box, with space for adventure deck 2 (and possibly 3).
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Agan, I can't stress enough how I think the insert in the box is perfect for the game itself. I am one of those ones that is using sleeves and will eventually have to come up with an alternative, but that's fine. That is how I play the game and I'm sure and other people that use sleeves are probably in the minority. I do know that when the next box comes out, I'll just recycle my sleeves for the next game and then put all the cards back into their respective slots for storage.
Vic, you all did a great job on this game. The game is fun and the production value is great. Just keep doing what you are doing and this is going to be a good year.
so which sleeves do people think would be the best for me to buy?
is shuffling with sleeves weird? i have never played a deck builder (or magic/card games) where I had sleeved cards so I don't know what the "feel" of it is like.
I would like to have a tighter fit and not a lot of overhang or anything, so suggestions on brands would do wonders for newbie sleevers like me!
thanks
-silentdante