dustbunnyrob's page

Frankly, the title of this thread, and a very few of the posts in it, show a great deal of entitlement, as well as ignorance of the logistics involved in producing a product like this.

It really think people are putting WAY too much into the word "petition". The original poster was just looking for a way to bring people together to discuss the very real issue of the company fixing the problems they created.

I've been on the production end of this business. Most of the logistical problems with replacement cards were caused by the very strange decision to print the entire game at once; most of which won't even be on sale for months to come. But, that was their decision to make, and now they need to find a way to fix the issues that it brings.

I don't find it to be entitlement to expect a company to fix its own mistakes. How they go about that, be it replacement cards, a PDF with the corrected cards, or some other solution, is the question. Not whether they will fix it or not. We are customers buying a product, not shareholders supporting a company. We can rightly expect a product to be correct or for it, in some way, to be made whole. Other companies do this, and it is not out of the ordinary.

Obviously, people should ask for what they want, and discuss possible ways of fulfilling that desire. But to "petition" for free cards and lambaste a company rep who is willing to discuss the issue with you (and would be key in any decision made) is neither smart nor realistic.

I didn't see anyone lambasting Vic (well, not until is...interesting post). You pointing out that he is a co-owner does go a long way toward understanding why he feels he can speak to customers the way he did, with no internal repercussions. As Dave pointed out, if he was working for someone else, he would be lucky to still have his job.

If Vic has simply said that they were looking into the issue and would be making a statement soon, there wouldn't even be this problem. But he choose a very different path.

Dale Skinner wrote:

Hi Vic,

I think you need to relax a bit. Yes a lot of us would like replacement cards, I realize this is not practical. However I do agree a PDF on the faqs/errata would be an excellent compromise.
I think Vic you need to,show a bit of respect here, we are all you customers. I am in the product sales and service industry plus a manager. If I treated my customers the way you did here I would be fired on the spot.
Lets all work together this is an excellent game.
DMS

You obviously do not have much experience with Paizo customer service, or Vic in particular, if you believe that.

No, what we have to judge Vic on, and Paizo customer service for that matter, is THIS experience.

If this is any indication on how customers are going to be treated, maybe they can do without a few.

I know that I, for one, will be watching very closely on how this is handled between now and when the next expansion pack comes out.

dustbunnyrob wrote:

the totally mystifying inclusion of cards that we are supposed to write on

On a side note, I DO totally agree with this from a few days ago. When I looked at those cards something went "sproing" in my brain and I went..."<twitch> Lol... wuh tuh fuh? NOPE!"

Thankfully the printable characters sheets (thank the Paizo pantheon) fixed that issue, and were realized as key needs prior to formal release.

This was a perfect example of Paizo seeing an issue and fixing it. Hopefully, those type of character sheets will be included in the next game. And hopefully they will be able to fix the other issues that are present in this first game (better cardstock would be great).

So, let me get this straight, my opinion (and others who like the insert) and the fact that sleeving vs. not sleeving is a personal choice is "patently false"?

Not at all. I wasn't talking about anything that was your opinion. What was wrong was when you said that the company couldn't plan for both people who don't sleeve and people who do at the same time. That was the statement that I was talking about.

Why are you so insistent about projecting your anti-insert crusade every time someone isn't unhappy with it like you are? An insert will either have too large or too small slots depending on whether it is designed to hold sleeved cards or sleeveless cards.

I'm fine with the insert and will work around it when I have to since I decided to sleeve the cards.

IF they choose to create a sleeve friendly insert later, bully for them. Until then quit trying to make others who are satisfied unhappy.

I don't comment when people are happy about the insert...I comment when someone says something that is patently false.

I'm glad for you that you are fine with an insert that you are going to have to throw away. It bothers me that I have to pay money for something that doesn't work for everyone. The cost of that insert is non-trivial. Simple dividers solve the same issue, are just as useful for setup, require a smaller footprint for the box itself, and result in a lower cost overall.

I'm not trying to make anyone unhappy (and how would someone even go about something like that?). There is no crusade. I've said before that I think the insert, as it is, is a good start for a product new to the company; but they can do better in the future.

Sleeving is a personal preference which the creators cannot plan for. If the insert were staged for sleeves, it would be very awkward for players who don't sleeve.

Except they CAN plan for it. They can implement a solution that works for everyone. Other companies do, and I hope that Paizo makes the same decision going forward.

Thanks. Appreciate that. Can't really ask for more.

I'm in for two!

My 10 year old daughter wants her copies of the characters she plays for her room.

Pls take my money.

dustbunnyrob,

The fact is that proving a useful and easy way to organize your cards is essential to this game, as good card organization drastically reduces setup time, and that increases fun.

I've said several times that if you want to sleeve, you can do that—but the price you pay is that you then have to come up with your own storage solution, as the one we've provided is eventually going to stop working for you. You are clearly willing to go to that effort, and good for you, but I'm confident that the number of people who would prefer to avoid that effort is larger than the number of people who will choose to do it.

Vic,

You seem to be stuck on the current box. What I mean is, there is nothing to be done with the box and insert that we have. It is what it is. I think it is a great first attempt, it just falls short of being useful for all of your players.

My point is what will the NEXT box be like? Will this issue be taken into consideration for the next game? Or will the concerns of a large part of your sales base be ignored (larger than I think you actually realize). From your comments above, you seem very dismissive. This worries me from a company that, from what I've seen, seems to care about the value of their products.

dustbunnyrob wrote:

Also, it isn't really a "game" design thing, it's a storage solution. The game design has been great.

Well yeah - I was speaking sloppily. I think his point was "The box and insert will hold the first half dozen expansions, but isnt designed for the cards to be sleeved".

Oh, totally agree that that is his point. And for now, this is what we have. I just hope that in the future they can find ways to make it better. That's the part I haven't heard, and is why I made the points I did.

Do I think Vic is totally ignoring the issue....no, I really don't. That's just they way it has seemed to me from his answers.

I would greatly prefer something akin to a) Thunderstone Advance or b) Sentinels of the Multiverse Enhanced Edition. Both include very nice labeled dividers along with straight runs for card storage. BUT, sadly note in both cases there is not enough room sleeved cards. :(

I agree with you on Sentinels, great job on the dividers, but too narrow for sleeved cards. Just a little wider and it would have been perfect.

I haven't had any issues with the Thunderstone Advance box. Fits my sleeved cards great and with the dividers, it's a breeze to organize.

It seems you took Vic to be sticking his fingers in his ears saying 'there's no problem, there's no problem, there's no problem' when I think all he was trying to do was explain to people how the game is designed - the issue of efficient storage is easy to miss, since the box currently has heaps of space. I didnt really take him to be saying "Don't use sleeves" so much as "The game isnt designed for the cards to be sleeved".

I hear you Steve, and I really do agree that it's great they thought about having a functional insert from the very start. My opinion is that they missed the mark a bit and didn't take everything into consideration. That happens, particularly with new games. That's one of the reasons I pointed toward AEG's box solutions. They had really bad boxes for Thunderstone early on (Pathfinder is leaps and bounds above the early TS box). But they learned from it and now have, in my opinion, the best deck-builder box out there.

Also, it isn't really a "game" design thing, it's a storage solution. The game design has been great.

I said just what I wanted to say, cartmanbeck, and no attack was made on Vic, essentially or in any other way.

I am very pro-Vic. I'm just not pro the way he has replied to this issue.

So far, I think this is a great game, but there have been two issues with it that I really feel are just growing pains from a company expanding into a new area (card games).

First is the strange decision to have cards that you write on. Every time I bring out the character cards, every time with no exceptions, people who have seen them have been a bit dumbfounded. Maybe this is a holdover from character sheets in the RPG's, I don't know I wasn't in the room when they decided to go this route. When people online reacted to these cards, the company saw it was an issue, and took steps to fix it. They made the full size character sheets. Excellent response! Find an issue, find a fix, implement it before the game even hits shelves.

The other problem is the insert. And yes, I do realize it is only an issue for people who sleeve their cards, but that is a large part of the market for these types of games. Is there a quick/easy fix for the insert? No. At this time it is what it is. My issue with the way Vic has answered about sleeved cards has been inaccurate and dismissive (and Vic, if that is not the case, and it's just me reading that into what you have said, then my apologies to you).

The arguments that Vic has used seem to be:
Cost, space, aggravation.

None of the examples he uses have been correct, though.

Cost: $10 - 13 less than one of the expansions

Space: Simply by laying the cards on their sides with appropriate dividers the cards, even sleeved, will take up about 2/3 the room the box takes.

Aggravation: And here is where Vic brings up this strange idea that anyone is going to sleeve/unsleeve cards. This seems like a very large reach to make a point (which I tried to illustrate with my "puppy" comment, maybe I failed to bring that one home). The argument seems like a strange strawman to create a scenario that I really can't see anyone implementing.

Now, the real issue I worry about is that the company might not see this insert problem for what it is, be dismissive, and not learn from it. That's where any frustration I have is coming from.

Is it a dealbreaker? Obviously not; I know about the bad insert before I bought the game, and here it is right next to me (in the trash). It is annoying that I get to pay for it, but that's the way it goes.

All I want is for Vic to see that it is an issue for some people, realize that the arguments he has made up till now are inaccurate, and hopefully be able to look for a better solution in the future.

also, cartmenbeck, the insert has NOTHING to do with the way the game was designed to be played. It is a storage and organization tool.

The cards are standard poker/TCG size... but I do not recommend you sleeve them.

The first problem is volume: if you wanted to keep *all* your cards sleeved, assuming you purchase all the expansions, we're talking 1025 sleeves just for the cards with standard backs. There are another 130 double-sided cards which would either need clear sleeves or no sleeves.

The second problem is that the box contains a tray that's designed to hold all of the cards, and using the tray dramatically speeds up the setup process. If you sleeve your cards, they'd no longer fit in the tray, so storing, organizing, and setting up the game would all become dramatically suckier... unless you're crafty enough to build your own jumbo replacement tray, which would need to be *very* large.

If you just want to sleeve the cards that you're going to use in a single session, you'd still need hundreds of sleeves (the actual number varies by the number of players), and sleeving and unsleeving those hundreds of cards would add a *lot* of time to setup and putaway. Even if you're enthusiastic about sleeves, I think you would tire of this quickly.

If you just want to sleeve your character deck and nothing else, that's a bit more feasible. Depending on your character's advancement, you begin a scenario with 15 to 25 cards, but you'll be adding cards to and removing cards from your deck as you play; every time you acquire a card or lose a card, you'll need to sleeve/unsleeve it. There's no limit to the number of cards you may have in your deck during a session, so even if you start with 25 cards, you could have 35 or more in your deck during play. (You could probably manage to do all your sleeve manipulation during other player's turns.)

Vic, I have seen you post things like this mutiple times now, and none of it is close to true. They way you defend the box and insert makes me wonder if it saved your puppy or something.

I will be sleeving this game, just like I sleeve all my games. With clear penny sleeves it will be around $10. Not a major expense compared to the cost of replacing these cards (they are on the thin side for a deck builder).

The box is way larger than it needs to be, even sleeved I will use less room than this box takes up. Having the cards stored on their sides with dividers serves the same purpose as the unusable (for people who want to take care of their cards) insert that you have provided. Look to AEG for excellent box design for these types of games. Quality dividers, room for sleeved or unsleeved cards, and plenty of room for expansions.

This idea you have for sleeving and unsleeving cards is just silly.

Please don't take this wrong; I like your product. I've already had tons of fun with this game and fully expect to continue to as the expansions roll out, but I don't think you really know a large part of your market. Not taking into account large number of people who sleeve their cards, and the totally mystifying inclusion of cards that we are supposed to write on just shows me that you have a few things to learn about this market. And that's not really a bad thing, as long as you can learn from these kinds of things and make the product better; which I totally think Paizo is a company that can/will do that.

I don't play RPG's anymore, but I have to say that seeing the quality of the Pathfinder product on the shelves has really tempted me to jump back in. Card games, particularly deck builders with lots of expansions, are very different from what you guys usually make (at least from what I've seen), and there are sure to be growing pains with that. I just hate to see the struggle to defend the ONE thing that was such a big miss that a great product has.