Good Evening Fellow Gamers,
I have a question and I am looking for some input.
If a spellcaster has the quickened spell feat, and has readied an action to counterspell. How would that quickened spell fit into the procedure?
Example 1:
[Wizard] has a quickened dispel magic and a magic missile spell prepared. [Wizard] readies an action to counterspell, and when the opponent casts his spell uses his quickened dispel magic to counter it and then follow up with a his magic missile spell.
Example 2:
[Wizard] has a quickened magic missile and a dispel magic spell prepared. [Wizard] readies an action to counterspell, and when the opponent casts his spell uses his dispel magic to counter it and then follow up with a his quickened magic missile spell.
Example 2 seems more legal in my mind, with both being legitimate in my mind. But, I wanted some additional input.
Very Respectfully,
--Josh
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I am not entirely certain I understand the question you are asking. Both of your examples appear to presume you are doing two things as a result of a readied action. This is not possible. Even with Free Actions.
Details: Ready an Action
Note the phrasing:
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action.
When you are taking an action out of sequence you specify the trigger for it and you can prepare one thing to do. You do not get your full turn. You cannot take Free Actions out of sequence unless they specifically say that you may. So there is no way to Counterspell and then Cast, even if you readied it ahead and had a Free Action spell on hand.
Readying to Counterspell
You may ready a counterspell against a spellcaster (often with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell"). In this case, when the spellcaster starts a spell, you get a chance to identify it with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If you do, and if you can cast that same spell (and are able to cast it and have it prepared, if you prepare spells), you can cast the spell as a counterspell and automatically ruin the other spellcaster's spell. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.
A spellcaster can use dispel magic to counterspell another spellcaster, but it doesn't always work.
So, I propose...
Example 3:
[Wizard] Has a Quickened Magic Missile and Dispel Magic prepared. On his Initiative sequence [Wizard] uses a Free Action to cast Magic Missile and then uses a Standard Action to Ready to Counterspell with his Dispel magic. [Enemy] begins to cast a spell, triggering a Spellcraft check for [Wizard] and the opportunity to use the Readied Action to Counterspell.
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It is not so clear cur in the rules as Howie and Errant make it as the Actions In Combat table say: "Ready (triggers a standard action)".
[Note: you must take the specific action that you have readied, not any action, I am not arguing against that]
So, if you read only that part, there is space to argue that you can make all the free/swift actions that you can take during a standard action.
Or you can even argue in favor of joshua Example 1, with the guy with the readied action having a swift action readied, using it and then using a his standard action.
Reading only the Ready paragraph of the rules instead enforce Howie and Errant reading of the rules.
Combining the two is problematic.
My interpretation [but it is a interpretation] is that the readied action will always consume a standard action, even if the action you have readied normally would be a free/swift action.
You are still entitled to the swift/free/non actions that can be used in conjunction with the readied action (like activating combat expertise or the free touch attack that you get when casting a touch spell) but not to use unrelated free/swift actions.
If you want to use a unrelated swift/free action while readying a action you should to that during you "normal" round, before readying the action.
- * -
To make a problematic example.
Let's say you have quickdraw, you can ready an action that say:
"When an opponent enter in my melee range, I will quickdraw my weapon and attack him."?
It can be a way to lure a enemy into passing through your threatened squares unaware that he will get an AoO.
" a standart action" say's it all..
its not plural... so 1 action!
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I feel the wording on what may be readied is very clear. It explicitly states a (singular) or (exclusive). I do not see a problem.
The readied action does not "consume a standard action". Instead you spend a standard action preparing to do something. For instance: standing to the side of the door with your sword up is readying an attack, possibly triggered when something comes through the doorway. In that example you use your standard action to make a single attack which also costs a standard action.
If a paladin readies Lay on Hands to heal herself she spends one standard action to prepare herself to use a Swift action when it is triggered. When the trigger occurs Lay on Hands does not expand to become a standard action, it is still a Swift Action. This distinction is important in situations where characters cannot perform certain action types or are otherwise restricted.
Your example is poor because melee range is determined by reach and Attacks of Opportunity are not readied actions. They have their own set of rules. You cannot ready an attack with a weapon when that weapon is still in your pants. You have to whip it out to be ready to use it. To expand on why this the case let us say your weapon is a whip. It has a 15' reach. The trigger is "When the enemy is in melee range I attack". At the time you define your action melee range for you is the reach of your arms, or 5' in most cases. The enemy must be within 5' for you to trigger your action. It would be acceptable to set the trigger "When the enemy reaches 15' I draw my whip." At that point your opponent is in range for your attacks of opportunity.
Being able to act out of sequence to interrupt another action is a very powerful move if used with some tactical acumen. There is no need to make it even better by double-stuffing the action sequence like an Oreo.
Finally, the Action Table is not a rule, it is a guideline reference for providing at-a-glance information. Just like the Feats table does not define how feats actually work. Do not let the quick-answer style summaries mislead you as to the nuts-and-bolts function.
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Your example is poor because melee range is determined by reach and Attacks of Opportunity are not readied actions. They have their own set of rules. You cannot ready an attack with a weapon when that weapon is still in your pants. You have to whip it out to be ready to use it. To expand on why this the case let us say your weapon is a whip. It has a 15' reach. The trigger is "When the enemy is in melee range I attack". At the time you define your action melee range for you is the reach of your arms, or 5' in most cases. The enemy must be within 5' for you to trigger your action. It would be acceptable to set the trigger "When the enemy reaches 15' I draw my whip." At that point your opponent is in range for your attacks of opportunity.
It only change slightly the wording of the action I want to ready: "when a enemy get within 5' is draw my dagger [free action with qucickdraw] and attack."
The idea is the enemy will try to move trough the squares adjacent to the "unarmed" enemy to attack some other target, so suffering the readied attack and being potentially subject to a AoO. You don't ready the AoO.If we follow your idea that you can't take a free action together with a readied standard action, what happen if I ready a shocking grasp?
I cast the spell but can't take the associated free attack?
Finally, the Action Table is not a rule, it is a guideline reference for providing at-a-glance information. Just like the Feats table does not define how feats actually work. Do not let the quick-answer style summaries mislead you as to the nuts-and-bolts function.
The tables are an integral part of the rules, they aren't simply a at-a-glance reference.
Remove the Actions in Combat table. Now, say to me what action provoke an AoO.Ranged attacks, Control a frightened mount, Sheathe a weapon? It don't say anything in the relative entries in the action description.
Drink a potion? Not even listed in the actions, it is only in the table.
Light a torch, Stabilize a dying friend, load a crossbow ? Same as above.
Manipulate an Item specifically reference the table as the primary source of information:
Manipulate an ItemMoving or manipulating an item is usually a move action.
This includes retrieving or putting away a stored item, picking up an item, moving a heavy object, and opening a door. Examples of this kind of action, along with whether they incur an attack of opportunity, are given in Table: Actions in Combat.
So the table is a integral part of the rules, not a tackled on reference sheet.
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@Diego Rossi It has been clarified numerous times on this forum (and in the FAQ if I recall correctly) that the act of delivering your frisky fingered zap is part of casting Shocking Grasp. I'll let you do your own leg work on how other spells do or do not interact in this respect.
If you want to use the Actions Table to determine whether or not something provokes an AoO; that is an accurate use for the table and I support it completely.
If you want to use that same table to determine the rules on readied actions I refer to my original argument: The Actions in Combat table is not a reference for that purpose and it is foolish to apply it as such. I'm honestly surprised it is even part of your argument...a second time.
To clarify your own example a second time:
The Readied Action is to draw your weapon.
If your opponent does not move out of a square you threaten or otherwise provoke an Attack of Opportunity then you do not get one. You just wasted a readied action. (Maybe not if there is some effect based on you drawing your weapon that you want to trigger.)
Think of it like this: You must be prepared to complete the action you are readying. If the weapon you are attacking with is not in your hand, then you are not ready to attack. It is important to understand that your opponent kinda sorta knows that you have an action ready to do something and kinda sorta knows what that something is. A fighter may not know what spell the wizard has ready, but she is aware that the wizard is ready to cast a spell. A wizard may not know what kind of attack the fighter has readied, but he knows that fighter is ready to attack/trip/grapple. Without using skills or other abilities a readied action is clearly indicated and the enemy can react appropriately.
@blackbloodtroll Not in all cases. You get one immediate action a round. Also, Liberating Command is an immediate action to cast, I cannot ready the spell Grease, cast Grease and then cast Liberating Command right after. Just because an action is immediate does not mean it can be used outside of your turn.
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Immediate actions can absolutely be used outside your turn.
Immediate Actions
Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.
Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.
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Hmm. I'll have to agree with the rules on that. I was pretty sure you could not cast immediate action spells outside of your turn, but there it is: Feather fall. It just consumes your Swift/Immediate action, so you can only do it if you have one available.
Thanks for the quote. I should have looked it up myself.
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It is important to understand that your opponent kinda sorta knows that you have an action ready to do something and kinda sorta knows what that something is. A fighter may not know what spell the wizard has ready, but she is aware that the wizard is ready to cast a spell. A wizard may not know what kind of attack the fighter has readied, but he knows that fighter is ready to attack/trip/grapple. Without using skills or other abilities a readied action is clearly indicated and the enemy can react appropriately.
This is a big stretch of the rules.
You have no idea if the fighter with the sword in hand has a readied action to swing at you as soon as you get withing 5' or is ready to trip you or to run away when you are withing 10' or activate his ring of invisibility.Same thing for the wizard with a staff in hand. He can have readied a spell, readied his staff to attack, readied a action to fly away or readied any other possible action.
Nothing say if and what action he has readied and what is the trigger.
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@Diego Rossi It has been clarified numerous times on this forum (and in the FAQ if I recall correctly) that the act of delivering your frisky fingered zap is part of casting Shocking Grasp. I'll let you do your own leg work on how other spells do or do not interact in this respect.
First you say that you can't use a free action together with a readied action and then you admit that you get the free touch attack with shocking grasp but try to weasel out of that claiming that it is part of shocking grasp and not a separate free action that you get thanks of casting shocking grasp.
Read the rules:Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
So, you admit that there are free actions that you can take as part of a readied action or not?
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
This to me would be a specific overrides general.
General rule on readied actions is you get exactly one action to take on the trigger.
If that one action you take is casting a touch attack spell, doing so grants a free touch attack regardless of what other limitations you may be under (assuming you are actually capable of making a touch attack, eg., a silent still spell cast while paralyzed does not grant a free touch attack).
If quickdraw allowed you to draw a weapon as an immediate action you could do so then attack with it based on a readied action. As a free action though it must be your turn to quickdraw. Your turn ended when you readied the action.
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Hmm. I'll have to agree with the rules on that. I was pretty sure you could not cast immediate action spells outside of your turn...
That's... the sole distinction between swift and immediate actions. Bit of an important rule to miss.
EDIT @bbangerter: Is there anywhere a specific rule that states that the free action to deliver a touch spell can be taken out of turn? If not, Diego Rossi is correct in saying "A rule that you can never take a free action with a readied action unless the free action can explicitly be used out of turn implies that you can't deliver a touch spell cast as a readied action." Because there's exactly as much direct in-rules support for delivering the spell during a readied action as quickdrawing as a readied action. Probably not intended.
In fact, there's a good reason for the devs not to specifically say "delivering a touch spell as a free action / quickdrawing a weapon can be done out of turn" since this would allow you to cast a touch spell, hold it until someone came into range, and then deliver it as a free action, or quickdraw a weapon out-of-turn without a readied action in order to threaten an area.
Seeing some free actions such as delivering a touch spell or drawing ammunition as "part of" another non-free action makes the most sense in terms of how they should work in combat (you can perform them during that readied action, but not out of turn otherwise) but it doesn't seem to be a clear RAW definition as such.
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@Weirdo Yes, I am aware of that. It was a moment of thoughtlessness and frustration. When it was pointed out to me I immediately recanted my mistake. I'm good like that. As for your concerns towards bbangerter's statement I would like to point out that the specific rule you are looking for is the one we're discussing: Readied Actions. It allows you to use actions out of sequence. Further, there is significantly less support for quick drawing and then attacking as part of a readied action compared to delivering the charge of a touch spell you have just cast. See below.
@Diego Rossi Well, you accused me of weaseling around my own position, which I consider to mean you do not understand what I am saying. I think perhaps you do not properly understand how some of these rules interact. Certainly we all struggle with nuances of a system as complex as Pathfinder once in a while.
The rules explicitly grant you an option to deliver the generated charge after casting is complete as part of casting the spell. This is an explicit function of that type of spell and is a situation where the general rule of Readied Actions is overridden by specific rule of a Readying a Touch Attack Spell. The free action to deliver the charge was added/clarified because otherwise a caster must use one standard action to cast and then wait an entire turn before using the spell. Such a limitation would make all touch attack spells undesirable compared to...pretty much everything else.
Resolution looks like this:
Readied Action - Shocking Grasp (trigger)
(Some stuff happens)
(Trigger occurs) - HALT FLOW OF COMBAT -
Cast Shocking grasp - Gain touch attack opportunity. Take or do not take touch attack as possible and per discretion
Readied Action completed - RESUME FLOW OF COMBAT -
Drawing a weapon is not part of an attack. Attacking does not explicitly grant you an option to draw a weapon. Drawing a weapon is a completely separate act. Before you even try to argue this, let me point out that attacking can be done unarmed and with natural weapons. Neither of those require being drawn. Drawing a weapon does not intrinsically mean attacking. You might need to get it out to show some body, or use as part of a skill check. The relationship between drawing a weapon and making an attack is very different from the relationship between casting a touch spell and the granted opportunity to deliver the charge.
It seems this was not clear. What follows is not canon, instead it is what I consider common sense and if you choose to run it differently, I'm okay with that. I'm not in your game so I don't have to like the way you run it.
If a character takes a visible standard action to prepare to do something, other characters may be able to know some details about that. For instance, if a character sets to receive a charge, other characters are aware of the fact.
If a character is preparing to use an item then the item is out and in a state where it can be used (read, triggered, quaffed...sundered...). Perhaps a Sleight of Hand check might be made to conceal it, but it must be available.
Similarly, if a character is preparing an attack or a spell then such a basic thing is obvious. You are correct, and I also specified in my example, that a given character does not know the exact nature of what the prepared action is or what the trigger is. However, the "readied" nature is obvious without intervention of some form of subterfuge. The character looks ready to...(use a weapon, cast a spell, activate his wand, etc...)
I feel this way because when you ready an action you are preparing yourself to complete that action at the first possible instant. Which is why Readied Actions interrupt the normal flow of combat; you were prepared to act immediately.
You have no idea if the fighter with the sword in hand has a readied action to swing at you as soon as you get withing 5' or is ready to trip you or to run away when you are withing 10' or activate his ring of invisibility.
Same thing for the wizard with a staff in hand. He can have readied a spell, readied his staff to attack, readied a action to fly away or readied any other possible action.
Nothing say if and what action he has readied and what is the trigger.
In your example you say I have no idea what the fighter's plan is. I would like to point out someone ready to run looks very different from someone ready to swing a weapon. Someone about to use an at-will item is probably a good exception to bring up, but you do not need to ready an at-will item. If the item is not at-will use then you have to do something to trigger it which usually tips off your preparation. I think the best argument is about using verbal only spells and triggers not tipping your hand. It's another case of specific overturning general. I would take those case by case.
Summary So far you haven't really presented any sound arguments for contradicting the very specific wording of the limitations of a Readied Action. It states quite clearly "You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action". The word OR is used which is exclusive, not the word AND, which would be inclusive. This means you cannot ready an attack (a standard action) AND quick draw a weapon (a free action). You may ready an attack OR ready a quick draw. The only shades of grey you have put forth are fringe cases which fall into the category of specific rules versus a general rule. That means they do not present any reasonable proof by negative. For a real world example of this: Mammals birth live young. The platypus is a mammal. The platypus lays eggs.
If you continue to have questions on very specific choices for readied actions then I urge you to start a new thread with those questions for a topic. I consider this matter closed and the original poster's (joshua.a.bacon's) question answered.
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@ Errant:
Snippets of your reply with comments:
In your example you say I have no idea what the fighter's plan is. I would like to point out someone ready to run looks very different from someone ready to swing a weapon. Someone about to use an at-will item is probably a good exception to bring up, but you do not need to ready an at-will item. If the item is not at-will use then you have to do something to trigger it which usually tips off your preparation. I think the best argument is about using verbal only spells and triggers not tipping your hand. It's another case of specific overturning general. I would take those case by case.
"At will" don't mean that using something is a free/immediate action. Most at will abilities are a standard action.
If you want to use an ability that work "at will" as a reaction to something you need to use a ready action.
It seems this was not clear. What follows is not canon, instead it is what I consider common sense and if you choose to run it differently, I'm okay with that. I'm not in your game so I don't have to like the way you run it.If a character takes a visible standard action to prepare to do something, other characters may be able to know some details about that. For instance, if a character sets to receive a charge, other characters are aware of the fact.
If a character is preparing to use an item then the item is out and in a state where it can be used (read, triggered, quaffed...sundered...). Perhaps a Sleight of Hand check might be made to conceal it, but it must be available.
Similarly, if a character is preparing an attack or a spell then such a basic thing is obvious. You are correct, and I also specified in my example, that a given character does not know the exact nature of what the prepared action is or what the trigger is. However, the "readied" nature is obvious without intervention of some form of subterfuge. The character looks ready to...(use a weapon, cast a spell, activate his wand, etc...)
I feel this way because when you ready an action you are preparing yourself to complete that action at the first possible instant. Which is why Readied Actions interrupt the normal flow of combat; you were prepared to act immediately.
Guessing if a guy with a raised shield and a sword in hand want to move to his right if you approach or want to advance 5' and swing at you is totally guessing. It is not possible to ready a withdraw action and that is the only movement action that is noticeably different from a normal move action.
Ready a weapon against a charge: it is not as recognizable as you think. Bracing a weapon against a charge don't require you to set its butt against the ground several seconds before the charging guy get in range. If that was true you would be unable to take AoO against not charging guys trying to circle you.Against, guessing if the guy with bat guano in one hand and a scimitar in the other want to cast a spell or swing his weapon is a pure guess.
We completely disagree on how easy is to guess a guy intentions. I think we agree that it boils down to a personal opinion and it is not a rule matter.
@Diego Rossi Well, you accused me of weaseling around my own position, which I consider to mean you do not understand what I am saying. I think perhaps you do not properly understand how some of these rules interact. Certainly we all struggle with nuances of a system as complex as Pathfinder once in a while.
I accuse you of weaseling out as you constantly use the "you are wrong and I have proved it" debate trick without ever proving your position.
I have show you twice the rules that specify that the touch attack is a free action, twice you had affirmed that you have showed that it is not true.Please, cite your rule text, instead of using your interpretation.
Note that is not limited to touch attack. You get a free action attack with ray spells, ranged touch attacks, spells that require you to touch friend.
And with Spell-Like abilities and supernatural abilities that require you to target someone and an action to touch/attack it.
Exactly of how many hundred of specific exceptions are we speaking?
bbangerter said it already, I'll repeat using my language.The rules explicitly grant you an option to deliver the generated charge after casting is complete as part of casting the spell. This is an explicit function of that type of spell and is a situation where the general rule of Readied Actions is overridden by specific rule of a Readying a Touch Attack Spell. The free action to deliver the charge was added/clarified because otherwise a caster must use one standard action to cast and then wait an entire turn before using the spell. Such a limitation would make all touch attack spells undesirable compared to...pretty much everything else.
bbanger tried to explain his position, you made a statement.
The problem is that there isn't a hierarchy of rules here.
What it the general rule and what is the specific rule?
Touch attack spells/SLA/abilities give you a free attack
or
[i]Ready actions allow you to ready 1 specific action[i] that you interpret as "and only that action, without the ability to add any free/swift action"?
Both are generic rules that apply to hundred of different situations and abilities. It is hard to claim that one is more specific than the other.
Drawing a weapon is not part of an attack. Attacking does not explicitly grant you an option to draw a weapon. Drawing a weapon is a completely separate act. Before you even try to argue this, let me point out that attacking can be done unarmed and with natural weapons. Neither of those require being drawn. Drawing a weapon does not intrinsically mean attacking. You might need to get it out to show some body, or use as part of a skill check. The relationship between drawing a weapon and making an attack is very different from the relationship between casting a touch spell and the granted opportunity to deliver the charge.
To cite my first post in this thread:
It is not so clear cut in the rules as Howie and Errant make it as the Actions In Combat table say: "Ready (triggers a standard action)".
[Note: you must take the specific action that you have readied, not any action, I am not arguing against that]
So, if you read only that part, there is space to argue that you can make all the free/swift actions that you can take during a standard action.
Or you can even argue in favor of joshua Example 1, with the guy with the readied action having a swift action readied, using it and then using a his standard action.Reading only the Ready paragraph of the rules instead enforce Howie and Errant reading of the rules.
Combining the two is problematic.
My interpretation [but it is a interpretation] is that the readied action will always consume a standard action, even if the action you have readied normally would be a free/swift action.
You are still entitled to the swift/free/non actions that can be used in conjunction with the readied action (like activating combat expertise or the free touch attack that you get when casting a touch spell) but not to use unrelated free/swift actions.If you want to use a unrelated swift/free action while readying a action you should to that during you "normal" round, before readying the action.
You are making an absolute statement:
I am not entirely certain I understand the question you are asking. Both of your examples appear to presume you are doing two things as a result of a readied action. This is not possible. Even with Free Actions.
I have show you that at least some action allow to make more that one action with your readied action.
You try to debunk my conditional statement making it an absolute statement and basing your objections on that. Another common debate trick.Probably the initial idea of using quickdraw is not RAI or RAW, but from that to saying that it is not possible to use any free/swift/no action in conjunction with the readied action there is a lot of space.
If I am a wizard with a intensify metamagic rod in my hand, and the action I have readied is:
"as soon as a enemy is within 10' I will cast shocking grasp, move 5' toward him and deliver the spell"
[I haven't moved any distance during the round, so he can move 5']
I can use the metamagic rod to intensify my spell [a no action]?
I can cast defensively with a readied action? [another no action]
Cease concentration on a spell, Drop a item, Drop to the floor, Prepare spell components to cast a spell, Speak are all free action that you say can't be taken. so I can do them or not?
There are too many exception to accept a blank statement of "no free/swift action allowed".
Edit:
I admit that I can be ungenerous when I think that your "no free/swift actions" stance include even the no actions, but you seem very set in negating every action that isn't strictly what was stated as the ready action, to the point that I feel it is right to ask if you would allow no actions like using a metamagic rod.
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If you're entire issue is the idea that I am saying it is impossible to ever use any other actions with a Readied Action then I can at least see why we keep disagreeing. You have misunderstood.
Unless specifically granted permission to do so, you may not exceed the expressly written constraints of Readying an Action.
The problem is that there isn't a hierarchy of rules here.
What it the general rule and what is the specific rule?
The hierarchy is very straightforward:
Taking an Action during your turn>
-Taking a specific Action(Ready)>
--Readying a type of action(Spell)>
---Readying a Specific Spell(Shocking Grasp)
Resolve upwards for conflicts.
As to combining a Readied Action with other types of actions...
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
I have emboldened the relevant point. If you take any other action before your Readied Action then you lose it. Normal turn flow resumes when you have completed it. There's actually a separate thread on this nuance alone if you want to follow up on it here.
There are too many exception to accept a blank statement of "no free/swift action allowed".
My position has always been "You can ready and complete exactly one thing." When pushed to clarify about readied actions like spells I qualified "Except where the specific rules explicitly provide for differently." I certainly don't feel there are 'too many' exceptions to this rule. There are exactly as many exceptions as the developers added and those exceptions are spelled out or will get FAQ'd. The number will change as the game evolves.
I accuse you of weaseling out as you constantly use the "you are wrong and I have proved it" debate trick without ever proving your position.
I have show you twice the rules that specify that the touch attack is a free action, twice you had affirmed that you have showed that it is not true.
Please, cite your rule text, instead of using your interpretation.
Note that is not limited to touch attack. You get a free action attack with ray spells, ranged touch attacks, spells that require you to touch friend.
And with Spell-Like abilities and supernatural abilities that require you to target someone and an action to touch/attack it.
Exactly of how many hundred of specific exceptions are we speaking?
You missed my argument entirely. I did not say that the touch attack component of Shocking Grasp was not a free action. I said that the chance to deliver the charge was intrinsic to the casting of the spell. You cast the spell and it explicitly states that you may then try to touch someone to deliver the charge. The rule for Touch Spells in Combat has been cited in this thread already, so I did not see any reason to re-cite them. Any and every other spell will always have to be taken on a case by case basis. That is actually the nature of spells and magic. You cast a spell to gain permission to do something you couldn't otherwise do, like: Fly, Speak all Languages, Become an Elemental, Turn to Stone... It is pretty silly to get bent out of shape that there are spells which do not fit neatly into the box. So, in response to your 'hundreds of exceptions' I repeat: There are exactly as many exceptions as the developers added and those exceptions are spelled out or will get FAQ'd. The number will change as the game evolves. Lastly, in so far as "You are wrong and I have proved it"... In regards to taking additional Actions with your Readied Action which are not expressly allowed...you are and I have. It's not a debate trick, it was citing the rules as written. I consider that proof.
I'm not really interested in arguing things that are unambiguous and spelled out in direct and simple language in the rule book. It just feeds the troll. Thanks for your input in the discussion.
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You missed my argument entirely. I did not say that the touch attack component of Shocking Grasp was not a free action. I said that the chance to deliver the charge was intrinsic to the casting of the spell.
And you continue to dismiss the extremely clear statement in the rules that deliver the attack is a free action.
I have emboldened the relevant point. If you take any other action before your Readied Action then you lose it. Normal turn flow resumes when you have completed it. There's actually a separate thread on this nuance alone if you want to follow up on it here.Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
Yes, you must take the readied action before your next action, I have already conceded the point that the quickdraw action can't be taken before the readied action [I did say "probably ... is not RAI or RAW," but your bolded text make clear that the "probably" part is wrong].
The problem is that I have show you several times that there are free actions that can be taken after or together with the readied action and you dismiss them as "special cases".When you have hundred of special cases the become the norm.
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
You have already recognized that the free action touch attack from a spell that give you a touch attack is "allowed".
So, what other free actions are allowed?A free touch on a friend for casting a beneficial spell with a range of touch?
A free attack for a magus using spellstrike?
The free action (with quickdraw) of drawing a new dagger from your belt after throwing one?
The free action of speaking?
The free action of dropping your potion bottle to the ground after you have done your readied action of drinking a potion?
The free action of reloading your crossbow if you have Rapid Reload?
Too many exceptions for an absolute rule.
Readying is a standard action.On your turn you perform the free action of casting a quickened spell and the standard action of readying an action.
So what OP put out would happen, but not as OP described.
Wizard 2 would use his standard action to ready a counterspell against wizard 1.
Wizard 1 would use his standard action to ready a counterspell against wizard 2 and his free action to cast a quickened magic missile.
Wizard 1 starts to cast quickened magic missile, which is interrupted by wizard 2 beginning to cast counterspell, which is interrupted by wizard 1 beginning to cast counterspell.
If wizard 1's counterspell succeeds at countering wizard 2's counterspell then wizard 1's quickened magic missile is cast unopposed.Also, both wizards now act on the same initiative with wizard 1 acting before wizard 2.
Dude, over four years. There's no reason to replay to a thread that's four years dead. Nothing you say is relevant to the thread anymore since it's dead.