The only answer is to either get rid of magic, or make martials casters too.Back atcha:I have to say, I am seeing a very alarming lack of imagination here.I'm with Kirth on that. It would be a fail to make martials casters. What they need is to more reflect fighter types from myths, legends, movies, etc.
I don't understand the game design logic that martials should be bound by real world physics in a world that does not behave by real world physics.
And as I have pointed out, such "martials" exist in Pathfinder. They are called barbarians, rangers, paladins and, if you want to push it, summoners, druids and more.
The game design logic does not restrict "martials" to real world physics, it basically does a very shoddy job at SORT OF restricting exactly TWO martial classes to "real world physics." Fighters and Rogues.
If you want to play a martial character with access to awesome cosmic powers in Pathfinder, you have more options to do so, than you have that do NOT have access.
Basically Pathfinder has chosen option B above, which is to give martials casting powers.
Remove fly, invi, teleport and wall spells from spell lis.t and you willl have something to teste
Remove fly, invi, teleport and wall spells from spell lis.t and you willl have something to teste
Don't forget knock and Honeyed Tongue. Lots of spells out there that boost skills, which isn't always a bad thing. Removing every single teleport ability/spell could take a while I'd imagine. Also persist metamagic maybe...
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Going back to the original question, you would have to nerf spell casters a lot to make them unplayable, but its important that they remain fun. Taking away from their x/day or limiting their selection will make them weaker, but they'll still have access to abilities like flight or creating demiplanes that martials won't so it won't do much for an actual balance fix. It may however make them less fun, which I think is why there is resistance. Nerf it while retaining fun, or even making it more fun and your a success.
There are ways of fixing casters without making too many changes:
- No concentration checks if you take damage to save the spell. Concentration is only used for making checks while under effects/distracted/etc or for using SLAs while taking damage. For regular spells - you take damage = spell fails.- No spell bonuses for high Int. Hight Int is already increasing DC of spells (which is broken enough), so it doesn't need to do triple duty (Skills, DC and bonus spells). Same goes for any casting stat - no bonus spells for high stat.
-Opposition schools are just that, you can't cast from them. Ever (via wand, device, etc). Same with Divine spells - Pick a major sphere (up to 9th level spells) and a few minor spheres (5th level max) for you spell selection choice. Every other sphere gets capped at 3rd level spells for general use.
-Skills need a fix in relation to spells: I would dump any bonus skill boosting spells. If a spell gives you the ability to climb walls - it does just that - at your normal wizard (re: crappy) climb skill score. Cast it on the Rogue, it works better...Same goes with Jump, etc. You can jump farther, higher - but your skill and ability to do so succesfully are unaffected by the spell.
-Skills need a fix in relation to spells (part II): If you keep spells that did mundane tricks (re: Knock), have them be target dependent in their effectiveness. So a wizard who casts it on an area affects a few locks - if he tries to disable them he does it at +5, if someone with Disable Device skill on their character skill list tries, their bonus is +10 higher than what everyone without gets (so +15). +X for using the spell on anyone who tries and +X+10 higher to those with the relevant class skill and ranks in the skill who try the same.
-Skills need a fix in relation to ability/points allocated. There should be muscle skills, coordination skills, interpersonal skills, and knowledge skills and technical skill pools.
High Int only helps for Knowledge skills and half bonus to technical skills (other half from Wis). In other words, skill points and pools should be reflected by the class and allocated accordingly and bonus points by relevant stat and not one stat to rule them all.
-Feats: While I am very anti-wuxia/supernatural warrior, I see no reason why a mid to high level Fighter cannot get a chance to block a spell with his shield or deflect a breath weapon, or why a Barbarian cannot rage to destroy a Wall of Force, or a Ranger to make a marked dispelling shot to take down a flyer, etc.
Not asking for super human abilities, just asking for a super human responses to a fantasy environment. You don't need to be able to split fireballs - blocking them and reducing the damage they do (or even reflecting some spells) would suffice. Feats that help with persistent effects beyond making a binary save would be a good start – breaking free from an effect after you fail your save would CONSIDERABLY do much to help martials deal with spells and SoD/SoS effects.
Just to name a few.
I don't care about flight or demi-plane creation - wizards should have this stuff. But they should be able to be struck down from their flight by proficient arrow shots or their demi-planes be made breach able by same level martials with a magic weapon. Casters spells should also flop if they take 1 or more points of damage while casting.
Anyway
- No concentration checks if you take damage to save the spell. Concentration is only used for making checks while under effects/distracted/etc or for using SLAs while taking damage. For regular spells - you take damage = spell fails.
Turn the game into just waiting on readied action to screw up the wizards day? That's no fun.
- No spell bonuses for high Int. Hight Int is already increasing DC of spells (which is broken enough), so it doesn't need to do triple duty (Skills, DC and bonus spells). Same goes for any casting stat - no bonus spells for high stat.
You need it to scale in DC somehow, and again removing spells known/per day isn't really a fix for anything. Just makes things less fun.
-Opposition schools are just that, you can't cast from them. Ever (via wand, device, etc). Same with Divine spells - Pick a major sphere (up to 9th level spells) and a few minor spheres (5th level max) for you spell selection choice. Every other sphere gets capped at 3rd level spells for general use.Requires a complete rewrite. The schools are completely unbalanced among each other and divine spells aren't divided into spheres at all.
Well they do still have a school, its just that only wizards and feats care about what school your spell is from. Only wizards even have opposition schools. Limited to one form of unlimited power still doesn't help, just removes options. I love options! I just need options that don't shatter your game.
-Skills need a fix in relation to spells: I would dump any bonus skill boosting spells. If a spell gives you the ability to climb walls - it does just that - at your normal wizard (re: crappy) climb skill score. Cast it on the Rogue, it works better...Same goes with Jump, etc. You can jump farther, higher - but your skill and ability to do so succesfully are unaffected by the spell.
Spider climb already does that. Having a climb speed gives you a +8 racial and the ability to take 10 for instance. Or are you saying we should cap things unless you have a spell, screwing everyone over?
I don't care about flight or demi-plane creation - wizards should have this stuff. But they should be able to be struck down from their flight by proficient arrow shots or their demi-planes be made breach able by same level martials with a magic weapon. Casters spells should also flop if they take 1 or more points of damage while casting.
So... They should have the power to create demiplanes, but be easily shot down by arrows, and fighters need the power to cut into the demiplane somehow?
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-Opposition schools are just that, you can't cast from them. Ever (via wand, device, etc). Same with Divine spells - Pick a major sphere (up to 9th level spells) and a few minor spheres (5th level max) for you spell selection choice. Every other sphere gets capped at 3rd level spells for general use.Requires a complete rewrite. The schools are completely unbalanced among each other and divine spells aren't divided into spheres at all.
If the schools are unbalanced against each other how is the current system balanced where you have to spend x2 for an opposition slot? In effect what I am proposing is the same thing, just a ban instead of a double cost to buy-in.
As far as the spheres, yeah that would require a re-write. Wouldn't be that hard to regroup them though.
If the schools are unbalanced against each other how is the current system balanced where you have to spend x2 for an opposition slot?
Badly, wasn't great in 3.5 where you had to pick 2 schools to never use either. It heavily rewarded picking conjuration or transmutation to specialize in because they could do pretty much anything while it punished you for banning those same schools. You end up picking spells you can put on scrolls or are easiest to lose to ban and the most versatile to specialize in.
In 3.5 strong spells cost experience points...
Actually, if you use the original rules for falling damage as they were intended, falling long distances quickly becomes pretty lethal.
If you fall 20 feet, you take 3d6 (1d6 for the first 10 feet, and then 2d6 for the next 10 feet...yeah, it was originally supposed to be cumulative). If you keep 200 feet fallen as reaching terminal velocity, you get 210d6 damage as the maximum falling damage.
Debateable. It's always been 1d6/10ft per RAW, but there were a few interesting Dragon articles about it:
http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/11/articles-of-dragon-falling-damage.ht ml
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- No concentration checks if you take damage to save the spell. Concentration is only used for making checks while under effects/distracted/etc or for using SLAs while taking damage. For regular spells - you take damage = spell fails.Turn the game into just waiting on readied action to screw up the wizards day? That's no fun.
Works for me and it worked in older editions. Keep the caster in the back and keep him protected. Oh wow, found an employment opportunity for a defender or 2nd tier martials!
- No spell bonuses for high Int. Hight Int is already increasing DC of spells (which is broken enough), so it doesn't need to do triple duty (Skills, DC and bonus spells). Same goes for any casting stat - no bonus spells for high stat.You need it to scale in DC somehow, and again removing spells known/per day isn't really a fix for anything. Just makes things less fun.
Subjective. If it makes it come out to less spell slot choices for the caster per day, but an overall better game experience for everyone else at the table I would consider it a success. If you are opposed to losing any entitlements for casters you will not find a fix for this game, something has to give.
DC should be scaled in relation to Caster vs. CR target save assumptions, not Caster + DC manipulation by stat vs CR target (with no assumptions). The latter is the current model and it just doesn't work. You get some huge swingy gaps where the saves are overly difficult or overly easy. This is a game - with levels - make the damn thing work closely like a game that is making a vague attempt at balancing power by level tiers.
Well they do still have a school, its just that only wizards and feats care about what school your spell is from. Only wizards even have opposition schools. Limited to one form of unlimited power still doesn't help, just removes options. I love options! I just need options that don't shatter your game.-Opposition schools are just that, you can't cast from them. Ever (via wand, device, etc). Same with Divine spells - Pick a major sphere (up to 9th level spells) and a few minor spheres (5th level max) for you spell selection choice. Every other sphere gets capped at 3rd level spells for general use.Requires a complete rewrite. The schools are completely unbalanced among each other and divine spells aren't divided into spheres at all.
You have options - if you are Necromancer you get to cast Necromancy related spells plus a few other spells, just like the long sword fighter gets to use a bunch of feats to use his long sword better. Oh, you wanted to also cast enchantment, evocation, transmutation, conjuration and abjuration with no drawbacks or limitations? Seriously, this is why people who are biased towards casters should not be in game design.
Spider climb already does that. Having a climb speed gives you a +8 racial and the ability to take 10 for instance. Or are you saying we should cap things unless you have a spell, screwing everyone over?
No, re-read. My Spider climb gives you the ability to climb on walls and ceilings, use your current skill score and that's it. So if a wizard tries to use his non-existent climb skill, he will probably fall while playing Peter Parker in the Dungeon of Dread. Since it grants an exception (climbing on walls and ceilings), that exception should be enough. Use your skill you already have with no bonuses- or better yet, cast it on someone who already has a rank or two in the skill - like the Rogue.
FLASH: SPECIAL ABILITIES AND EXCEPTIONS THAT BREAK THE RULES OF PHYSICS SHOULD BE ENOUGH, THESE CHANGES SHOULD NOT BE RELFECTED IN +X TO SKILL/CHECK IN ADDITION TO THOSE CHANGES TO REALITYSo... They should have the power to create demiplanes, but be easily shot down by arrows, and fighters need the power to cut into the demiplane somehow?
So...They still have hit points like everyone else, suffer the effects of age and have an AC value like everyone else?
Yes, they should be able to create demi-planes and they still should be able to be decapitated, one aspect is not exclusive to the other. Fighters need the ability to cut into Demi-planes (if they exist in a given game world) as much as shop owners should have a minor magic item to get around invisible/knock using thieves. If there is a "something" ability in the rules then their needs to be a counter "something" - all of which is lacking in this game (horribly and a terrible design). It's as if all the spells were written out by for fun, fun, fun effect with zero thought to class ability balance, world interactions, counters, consequences, etc, etc, etc.And who said anything about being easily shot down by arrows? I said that the feats/ability of the classes should reflect their ability to interact in a magic world they are supposed to be living in, not medieval fantasy war world with no magic (most of current system for martials) as the default. So a mid-to-high level Ranger or Archer Fighter could make a ranged attack that would disrupt flight, you know - the ability that a comparable foe might have at a similar level? Not saying that a team of level 1 warrior archers should be able to take down an Arch-Mage who is flying overhead, but a 5th level Ranger (with a feat or class ability) should be able to ground a 5th level Wizard who is flying. WTH is so unbalanced about that?
Unless you are a caster protectionist nothing I am saying here is really taking away core caster power. They still can kill with a spell, alter realty, etc –they would just be taking a little haircut and would have to play better and smarter for all the power the classes afford to them.
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I wish I could click favorite on this more times.
You summarily and logically lined up the issues with imbalance.
A fighter only gets to be good at a longsword (insert favorite weapon here) but a Wizard gets to be a Necromancer/Illusionist/Fireballer extraordinaire?
A Fighter has trained his whole life to be a great archer, he has spent as much time focusing on his archer as the wizard has spent focusing on his spells. He lives in a world that allows people to fly, he should be trained at how to deal with them.
Why is this so hard to accept for some people?
Why is this so hard to accept for some people?
I haven't seen anyone say that the fighter shouldn't have defenses against magic, in fact I'd like to see that. I have seen people suggest nerfing the wizards and other spellcasters makes more sense than buffing the fighter though. At least barbarian gets superstitious, poor fighters left in the dumps when it comes to defenses.
Some ideas.
1. Require all wizards to be specialist wizards.
2. Remove level 8 and 9 cleric and druid spells from the game.
3. Cap spell DCs at 20
4. Eliminate concentration rolls. 1hp pf damage= no spell resolving or even a lost spell.
5. Wizards only get a single school and maybe 2 allied school, level 1-3 access to everything else. Birthrigh done this IIRC.
6. You can't start as a primary spellcaster and have to multi class into them after level 2.
7. Eliminate magic mart and item creation feats and use 2nd eds item creation rules. Wands of cure light wands etc do not exist. Makes cleric/druid types actually have to use resources from daily spells known.
8. Group spells into spheres and philosophy. Kind of like 2nd eds spheres and specialist wizards like force mages, elementalists etc.
9. Merge arcane and divine spells into one and then limit spell casters by spell access like Mgic the gathering. Illusion, flight, time spells are blue, boom spells are red, abjuration and healing spells are white, plant, animal some healing spells are green, black is death magic etc.
10. Eliminate the main offenders entirely and have things like warmages and beguilers from 3.5 as wizards. Make an illusionist class. Favored Souls replace clerics, use Druid variant from UA.
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Short range teleport can stay. Teleport needs to be removed and replaced with word of recall maybe or reduced in range to 1 mile a level.
Removing every single teleport ability/spell could take a while I'd imagine. Also persist metamagic maybe...I'd keep Dimension Door and Vanish. I'd replace fly with Handle Animal (Pegasus|Griffin|whatever). Teleport needs to be removed so that outdoor skills stop being invisible.
I've actually done a lot of damage with dimensional door in my life. Bring the whole party ontop of the boss and zerg. Ouch!
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Reducing per diem limits doesn't produce balance. It reduces the 15 minute adventuring day to a 12 minute adventuring day. No matter how much you cut spell slots the fighter either goes home when the wizard and cleric get tired or goes on alone and dies horribly.
If something must be lost from casting stat benefits it should be DC, not bonus slots.
This goes towards playstyle and DM choice. If you are running a 15 minute workday, you have bigger problems in your game than caster balance - in effect you just handed a tremendous amount of power to your casters by allowing them to decide the pacing of the adventure.
And again, I don't agree with this based on personal experience. Every group I have every ran (1st ed through PF) would stop when it wasn't prudent to continue based on group health and that had very little with the amount of spells left. Overall condition of the party and hit points (yes, I know that is tied with spells) was more of a determinant. If they were wounded and still had some healing spells left they may stop, but if they were in good shape and out of spells they would continue until they were too wounded to do so, which could be several encounters if they were smart and cautious (and not just mashing buttons).
DM should pace the adventure, not the caster player. This is more of a DM failure to pace his own game and in effect adds to power and importance of casters by allowing the 15 min day in the first place.
The 15 min workday came about from cross over PC/Console gaming and PNP RPGs. More of a product of mindset and the ability to deal with problems and resource expectations/recharges than a system issue. So if you give a caster more spells per day does it become a 20 min workday issue and if you take a few away and it becomes a 12 min workday issue? Sound like the same issue all around, doesn’t matter what the exact number of spells slots is.
Again, if you have these problems with resource management and control from the casters in your group you or they are doing it wrong. No, this is a play style issue, as in "no self control and poor resource management".
This goes towards playstyle and DM choice. If you are running a 15 minute workday, you have bigger problems in your game than caster balance - in effect you just handed a tremendous amount of power to your casters by allowing them to decide the pacing of the adventure.
What if... The problem isn't with the players, and with the game?
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This goes towards playstyle and DM choice. If you are running a 15 minute workday, you have bigger problems in your game than caster balance - in effect you just handed a tremendous amount of power to your casters by allowing them to decide the pacing of the adventure.What if... The problem isn't with the players, and with the game?
Well, you can have unlimited spammable spells but:
- They would be weak (game balance)
- They would be limited in function (cannot fully heal character, etc)
If the game is resourced based you are eventually going to run out of resources. The question is - how do you handle pacing their use and how do you handle their recovery?
You can also put some breaks into the use of spells by putting in a stress/fatigue system - but people would hate that. Example: You can cast any spell on your list, but you gain fatigue points every time you do. At one point, the amount of collected negatives makes it impossible to cast. So it would be a "forced" pacing system. Level 1 spec wizard has 3 spells, but after he casts his first, every other spell gets harder to cast. Unless there is some time in between. Nova and combos mostly go out the window at that point.
Part of the upside to reducing some of the massive power of casters is that it would be more feasible to give them more spell slots, lengthening the adventuring day by a bit. That's good for everyone involved I think.
You can't just nerfstomp them though because that's fun for nobody and doesn't make for good balance either. Caster balance is precarious, and it's just as easy to make them useless as it was to make them overpowered.
Zardnaar, I think, is trying to go too far with is.
"Must multiclass", "Remove the classes entirely" and the like are not the answer. That's not balancing them, it's just patching over the issue.
As well, removing Item Creation Feats and item stores hurts martial characters MUCH more than it hurts casters.
It'd have to be a more gradual change or an overhaul of the whole system to properly "nerf" casters (it's not really an applicable term here, you don't necessarily want to lower their power, just change its breadth a bit to be more balanced to the game as a whole).
A good place to start is reworking or removing everything casters have that step on the toes of other classes, and a lot of the Save or Suck/Die spells, and reworking summons a bit.
And after some small changes, you make small changes to martial oriented systems as well (skills, Feat, and so on).
Bring them all towards the middle a bit and everything is more balanced and fun for everyone who likes a balanced game (or is indifferent to it, really).
I recommended elsewhere that high level magic be detectable miles away by high level casters and people with relevant skills.
Which is entirely at the DM's hands and not balance really.
If the game is resourced based you are eventually going to run out of resources. The question is - how do you handle pacing their use and how do you handle their recovery?
Well, I guess we can handle it like pathfinder does. You see you have to have a certain amount of encounters per day or your doing it wrong. Never mind magics ability to eventually bend time/space or games that might not be encounter heavy. You do it that way or your wrong. Anyone who questions it should play another game. Blahblahblah. Ignore narrative control and all that... My point was that its a problem with the game that it demands it or your doing it wrong, and that the players shouldn't be the ones to blame for wanting to not live by that resource management.
Edit: I should add, you can easily handle resource management in other ways than the way pathfinder made you handle it. Manuevers from ToB ran on something else, as did 4e with its at-will/encounter/daily. Psionics also is something else, but not quiet perfect itself.
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Any balance solution is at the hands of the GM. For example, a world like Dark Sun where being a preserver makes you a criminal and being a defiler makes you a pariah will make martials much more powerful.I recommended elsewhere that high level magic be detectable miles away by high level casters and people with relevant skills.Which is entirely at the DM's hands and not balance really.
I'm not actually familiar with dark sun. What I meant was that because its left at the hands of the DM it could go horribly wrong, and easily, or be ignored, also easily. Its cool for a narrative or story element, but its not really a mechanical balance. I mean, a GM could say your second level power alerted the next room over, or that your 9th level power made you foes of the abyss(which could be taken as an attack on your character...), but you still have access to ultimate power in either case. Its just more of a threat of how much will it take before the GM hates your guts.
I'm not actually familiar with dark sun. What I meant was that because its left at the hands of the DM it could go horribly wrong, and easily, or be ignored, also easily.That's true of anything the GM does. A tabletop campaign is not, and should not try to be, an MMO. Often, hard clear rules do very bad things. Sometimes GMs without guidance from hard clear rules do very bad things. But, as a general rule, putting ultimate control in the hands of the GM is the best option available (that is, a GM with the guidance of a good, clear rule set).
Why are we talking about MMOs? This has nothing to do with video games, but with a mechanical balance. What's a hard clear rule that ruins things? Something like sneak attack does damage in D6's and one more D6 per odd level after 1st for example doesn't hurt anything, nor does weapon training giving +1 per x levels.
However, a spell like "Summon Damp Mist!" Makes things damp... doesn't really have much in the way of mechanics. Flavorful yeah, but its entirely left up to narrative. On the other hand "Entangling Fog!" Entangles those caught in its radius on a failed save, could entangle foes and dampen things in the room. That's something that's a hard clear rule that makes sense and could still be used as a narrative.
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Well, I guess we can handle it like pathfinder does. You see you have to have a certain amount of encounters per day or your doing it wrong. Never mind magics ability to eventually bend time/space or games that might not be encounter heavy. You do it that way or your wrong. Anyone who questions it should play another game. Blahblahblah. Ignore narrative control and all that... My point was that its a problem with the game that it demands it or your doing it wrong, and that the players shouldn't be the ones to blame for wanting to not live by that resource management.
I never blame the players for trying to get as much as they can and as much as the DM allows. I blame the DM.
And of course the players are going to use the system, that's how we see patterns of use over time (every fighter gets Weapon Focus, every Wizard gets Spell focus), players use what works best. Some of these things work so well, that they are not really choices but requirements - and should probably be removed. These are all reflective of players using and understanding the system. Optimal choices for X, etc. So I don’t blame the players for trying to be the best with what is out there, even if some of it is cheese.
Back to resource management - You can have two groups with the same characters run through the same encounters. One group goes longer before needing to rest. The group that goes longer without the need to rest is doing a better job - but not really, because the group that blows through their resources just goes to sleep (with fire and tent animation playing for 5 seconds) and the first group does not get an Iron Man award or bonus.
IDK, maybe there should be consequences to blowing your resources vs. a system that coddles groups who do the same? That was my point about certain groups and DMs "doing it wrong". They are training and supporting their players in the wrong way. (my opinion of course)
None of that was a fix but more of an observation.
An actual fix (and to address your point), is to have either minimal resource needs to continue playing, or quicker resource refreshes. From a game design perspective you will have to set a hard mark on:
- You’re wounded, you need to rest
- You’re out of X
So almost every RPG out there is about some form of resource control or management. At what point does this become less intrusive on actual game play?
Edit: I should add, you can easily handle resource management in other ways than the way pathfinder made you handle it. Manuevers from ToB ran on something else, as did 4e with its at-will/encounter/daily. Psionics also is something else, but not quiet perfect itself.
Some of these were perpetual use abilities, but the best ones were still limited in use per day. All you are doing is giving more ways to play the game beyond 15 minutes, maybe 30. But what happens when the group presses on, fights an end level tough encounter and already has used their Rock Storm/1 day ability? So even under a more generous system you still will eventually run out of juice.
Unless you separate out the need for abilities to "use" with character effectiveness and make characters stand a bit more competent without the need for X power to get through an encounter. That means more competent characters without X/use abilities.
All mutants have limited use mutations, humans without powers have higher hit points and better tech gear. When characters run out of mutations they go to the gun or melee, and TBH – most use the gun or melee and fall back on mutations as needed. The resource issues in that game are things like ammo and grenades. But everyone fights and kills more or less the same. Pure Strain Human in Powered Scout Armor, uses his armor weapons, external weapons and whatever he can get, throw or drive over his opponents to waste them. Another player has a higher level mutant medic/Dr. – not good at combat, but he is good at one weapon – his slug thrower, so he uses that to kill things (besides his mutations). So there is base degree of competence that is tied to character level – since there are no classes. Everyone kills, everyone uses guns (if they have them) and when you run out of mutation uses you just use something else to kill your opponents or solve your problems.
Technology is mostly lost (the really wierd stuff) but there are techs and mechanics in the game who can make and invent things, all you need are the skills and items. Anyone who makes the investment can try.
That is the big difference between that game and this one. Barring the mutant/human divide, anyone can use most any gear or get skills to make things. This game has distinct rolls that punish and reward different classes. Bit too much imo.
Can't wait to start running that game again.
Some of these were perpetual use abilities, but the best ones were still limited in use per day. All you are doing is giving more ways to play the game beyond 15 minutes, maybe 30. But what happens when the group presses on, fights an end level tough encounter and already has used their Rock Storm/1 day ability? So even under a more generous system you still will eventually run out of juice.
ToB was infinite use. It had a built in recharge mechanic. Similarly x/encounter abilities and at will were balanced to keep going and going and didn't force and x/day encounters on the game. Which... was my point.
I never blame the players for trying to get as much as they can and as much as the DM allows. I blame the DM.
And I blame the game and its developers. I don't think it should fall entirely on the DM to balance a game. Obviously throwing someone a 18 HD monster when they're alone and only have 5 HD is going to end badly, but encounters per day design being forced is a little ridiculous, and restricts the narrative power of the game's players and authors(The most important part!)
I'd rather see more longevity than less, but I'd rather see less insta gibbing nukes too so that it doesn't cause an incredible imbalance. I'd also rather see every class have some narrative power, not just the casters. Even ToB gave the martials the power to overcome conditions, better saves, more skill points, and the power to smash objects better than the ones that came before them. Stuff like that is pretty awesome. It also gave them the power to teleport, heal, and various other things dependant on class. Stone Dragon warblade played much differently than a shadow hand swordsage, and they weren't limited to just using their own schools(which was good! That would've sucked.)
if you banned healing wands
then all you did, was take the divine casters and turn them into a chore nobody wants except the shy, the submissive, and the masochistic
the reason the CLW wand is an option
is so the cleric can heal his or her companions out of combat without having to detract from his or her own fun.
few people have the drive to play a healbot for extended periods.
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Some of these were perpetual use abilities, but the best ones were still limited in use per day. All you are doing is giving more ways to play the game beyond 15 minutes, maybe 30. But what happens when the group presses on, fights an end level tough encounter and already has used their Rock Storm/1 day ability? So even under a more generous system you still will eventually run out of juice.ToB was infinite use. It had a built in recharge mechanic. Similarly x/encounter abilities and at will were balanced to keep going and going and didn't force and x/day encounters on the game. Which... was my point.
You still end up with X/day encounters due to the fact that you need to heal, unless you go the 4e route with that also. Also ToB9 was really just a magic system for martials (and part of the 4e stealth playtest like ToM).
There has to be another way besides poorly attempting to replicate combat only spells and damage boosts to achieve narrative power. Part of that is taking some away from casters and the other is changing the skill system so it isn't a +X system, which terri-bad, lazy game design. Skills should be hard coded and protected, not a simple numerical value. If you have a low Cha ahd want to overcome it with +X skill points or boost from spell or item, you should still be gimped for having a Cha dump stat. Having it based purely on numbers (which can be manipulated casually) is very poor game design, unforgivable actually.I never blame the players for trying to get as much as they can and as much as the DM allows. I blame the DM.And I blame the game and its developers. I don't think it should fall entirely on the DM to balance a game. Obviously throwing someone a 18 HD monster when they're alone and only have 5 HD is going to end badly, but encounters per day design being forced is a little ridiculous, and restricts the narrative power of the game's players and authors(The most important part!)
Oh no, I also blame the devs of 3rd ed first and foremost.
That also doesn't excuse robo-DMs from culpability. Encounter per day just like CR and WBL are just guidelines - ideally for new DMs. If you don't know how to pace your group and encounters, and train your players to better manage their resources no amount of "guide" systems (WBL, CR, encounters per day) are going to help you. DMing 101. Player groups have resources, both the DM and players can learn to stretch or condense their use as they develop system mastery - using X encounters per day when the CR calculations are (and still are) wildly inaccurate and do not address issue of player system mastery/optimization is going to cause some major problems. In the end, all this in the DMs responsibility. No amount of DMing for Dummies or Dev staff holding the DMs hand via "tools" serves as cover imo.I'd rather see more longevity than less, but I'd rather see less insta gibbing nukes too so that it doesn't cause an incredible imbalance. I'd also rather see every class have some narrative power, not just the casters.
Same here, not going to happen with d20 gaming without RADICAL CHANGES.
We also have to define narrative power here. To you it seems like being able to create an out of combat effect, even if that effect is artificial/poorly defined counts as narrative power (Ex:Charm Person: now he's your friend forevah!). I say that's just crappy spell writing, limit of ability of spell and consequence of spell use.
I define narrative power based on what the players do to affect the outcome of the story, not the small parts like flying to one point or another - but the actual outcome of the whole scenario.
Now I know part of the problem is not just the spells in the game, but how every Dev from 3rd to PF worships spells and the players ability to pick the right "win" button when doing their morning spell selection. This is just bad game writing. From the numerically mutable skills (via spell +X) to the fact that roles are not defined (Fighter should be the default Leader/Commander and have the tools to fill that role) to the fact that modules since 2000 have been written with only the "right spell" in mind/spells are superior, I can see how martial got the short end of the stick. It goes beyond the core system, it's also the modules, poorly defined approach to spell use cause/effect/risks and the devs attitude towards the absolute problem solving nature of magic/magic trumps all..and too many other things to list.
Even ToB gave the martials the power to overcome conditions, better saves, more skill points, and the power to smash objects better than the ones that came before them. Stuff like that is pretty awesome. It also gave them the power to teleport, heal, and various other things dependant on class. Stone Dragon warblade played much differently than a shadow hand swordsage, and they weren't limited to just using their own schools(which was good! That would've sucked.)
That's narrative power to you? To be able to teleport 50 feet in battle or to fly 10 feet off the ground on a column of fire? No offense but those are just glorified combat magic tricks that do jack beyond the battlefield.
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if you banned healing wands
then all you did, was take the divine casters and turn them into a chore nobody wants except the shy, the submissive, and the masochistic
the reason the CLW wand is an option
is so the cleric can heal his or her companions out of combat without having to detract from his or her own fun.
few people have the drive to play a healbot for extended periods.
Give it a rest. I was playing clerics in 1st ed, with super limited spell use and selection and I was able to heal and bash heads in. As were most plate and mace old school crusaders who post here.
I think this is mostly your personal experience with that really bad group you keep talking about that you are stuck playing with.
It also does serve as another good argument to reduce hit points across the board. Hp inflation without commensurate spell power to heal these vast pools of points does serve as a drain on the group healers and necessitates the need for the ugly CLW wand. Crop and drop all HPs/damage output and the healers won't need to be dedicated healers.
It also does serve as another good argument to reduce hit points across the board. Hp inflation without commensurate spell power to heal these vast pools of points does serve as a drain on the group healers and necessitates the need for the ugly CLW wand. Crop and drop all HPs/damage output and the healers won't need to be dedicated healers.
Channel energy seems to more than make up for HP inflation, IMHO.
That's narrative power to you? To be able to teleport 50 feet in battle or to fly 10 feet off the ground on a column of fire? No offense but those are just glorified combat magic tricks that do jack beyond the battlefield.
More than nilla' gave. Being able to leap great distances, blindsense 30 foot, ignore DR and hardness on a strike, shrug off conditions, and extra skill points. If those aren't useful for narrative to you then your being a little picky aren't you? There are a few strikes that really just gives more D6's, but a few of the stances and maneuvers definitely had a use outside of combat.
You still end up with X/day encounters due to the fact that you need to heal, unless you go the 4e route with that also. Also ToB9 was really just a magic system for martials (and part of the 4e stealth playtest like ToM).
Bit of paranoia in there isn't there? Anyways, health is far easier to recover than spell slots. You can recover it at all. The game already wants you to nab healsticks. Having them built in didn't hurt it imo.
Skills should be hard coded and protected, not a simple numerical value. If you have a low Cha ahd want to overcome it with +X skill points or boost from spell or item, you should still be gimped for having a Cha dump stat. Having it based purely on numbers (which can be manipulated casually) is very poor game design, unforgivable actually.
I disagree entirely; I like there being more than one way to do something. The idea that someone can overcome their faults with practice and dedication makes perfect sense. The guy who does the same and has a higher charisma is still better than him. That's just hateful.
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It also does serve as another good argument to reduce hit points across the board. Hp inflation without commensurate spell power to heal these vast pools of points does serve as a drain on the group healers and necessitates the need for the ugly CLW wand. Crop and drop all HPs/damage output and the healers won't need to be dedicated healers.Channel energy seems to more than make up for HP inflation, IMHO.
Mechanically yes, thematically it feels too much like a Guild Wars power - so I run it as an out of combat ritual as a house rule variant (limit how many times you can use it on the same target, but can use it on more targets - good for large battles, supporting soldiers, etc).
But yeah, they did try to attempt to fix the "dedicated" healer issue. Still would rather have all HP cropped and dropped/damage output reduced instead of creating more items and band-aid powers to cover up the problem of exploding hp.
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Skills should be hard coded and protected, not a simple numerical value. If you have a low Cha ahd want to overcome it with +X skill points or boost from spell or item, you should still be gimped for having a Cha dump stat. Having it based purely on numbers (which can be manipulated casually) is very poor game design, unforgivable actually.I disagree entirely; I like there being more than one way to do something. The idea that someone can overcome their faults with practice and dedication makes perfect sense. The guy who does the same and has a higher charisma is still better than him. That's just hateful.
And this is where we part - numerical only based skills is beyond horrific game writing and I would question anyone's game cred who thinks that such an easily manipulated system - one where one character INVESTS in his limited skill points and another character just uses spell Y to get +X points in that same skill - is someone who does not understand game design balance. Plain and simple.
Bit of paranoia in there isn't there? Anyways, health is far easier to recover than spell slots. You can recover it at all. The game already wants you to nab healsticks. Having them built in didn't hurt it imo.
No, it didn't work. People hated that book and the game that was derived from it. Not to edition war here but I think that 4e (imo) was a flop.
And back to this game (or 3.5 for that matter), the game wants you to do anything the devs - those same devs you blame for poor game design btw - have designed into it. So because they want you to do it (and crap on yet another class ability) doesn't make it good. Look at the hate for powers and abilities that step on other class abilities - even you up thread mentioned that certain +X skill boost should be removed, but healsticks are good?
Nonsensical.
I would much rather have a second wind mechanic available to ALL characters before needing a wound prophylactic like the CLW wands or a wuxia SLA to heal yourself as you hit people.
And It would make even more sense to just reduce ALL damage (and mods, feats and boosters) and reduce hit points across the board then to have an ever scaling race to the top/number crunching disaster that is 3rd ed based gaming.