At one sneak attack a round, I wouldn't consider him anything close to OP.
The Big Bad can have AOE spells or Improved Blind Fight.
I think you also have to consider how the enemies will react. Granted they can't see the sniper but they know the general area he's operating in. They would either swarm the area or take cover themselves. Maybe they fall back to a more open area, throw some alchemist fire or call in help. Even if they just attack the party members they can see they'll get cover/in combat protection from ranged (depending on his feats).
Never underestimate monsters with blind sense, scent, or tremor sense. If they know he is there it nullifies it. Of course most of these have a range limitations. Have him think he is stealthed, but really he has been marked for a huge fireball and they are waiting for him to pop out of cover again.
If he gets hide in plain sight, then blind sense will not help.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Items? At level 3?
He still has to be in range for sneak attack.
He's gonna be good for a bit, then fall off. Let him have a little fun.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Counter snipe him. After he makes his attack and before he hides again, he is visible. Have held actions targeting the sniper. Its the same tactics you use for fighting phase spiders and quicklings.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
He built his character for a specific reason and task. Let him enjoy him self, especially since its a rogue one of the must under powered classes. Also if you create encounters specifically to counter him over and over it will look like you are picking on him, which it is. Also he would have more reason to get hide in plain sight abilities, like i did on my rogue, were he could stealth, with out penalty, in bright, normal, and dim light with out cover and fly in the air.
|
|
Items? At level 3?
He still has to be in range for sneak attack.
He's gonna be good for a bit, then fall off. Let him have a little fun.
Yes, he started his new character at level 3 after his Wizard got killed, and I foolishly let him spend his 3000 gold on a Cloak of Elvenkind (+5 to Stealth) because I didn't want to bog down the session, so I trusted his greater experience. But even if I didn't let him have it to begin with he'd probably have gotten it later anyway. In retrospect, I should have known better because his earlier character was a munchkiny crafter Wizard.
I hope what you're saying is true, and he won't be OP later on. So far he's been pretty unstoppable.
Anyway, nobody seems to be disputing his interpretation of the rules, so does that mean his character is 100% legit?
His character is 100% legit and no he will not be over powered. If you want over powered then check out some of the builds on this forum and know true fear.
|
|
He built his character for a specific reason and task. Let him enjoy him self, especially since its a rogue one of the must under powered classes. Also if you create encounters specifically to counter him over and over it will look like you are picking on him, which it is. Also he would have more reason to get hide in plain sight abilities, like i did on my rogue, were he could stealth, with out penalty, in bright, normal, and dim light with out cover and fly in the air.Yes, I am certainly reluctant to design contrived encounters and scenarios to deal with him specifically, but neither will I let him walk all over my game by making Stealth his personal invincibility power. The Kingmaker adventure path simply wasn't designed with powergamers like him in mind and he's already gotten pretty smug about it. It's one thing to create an effective character, and another to exploit the rules in such a way that all encounters which aren't specifically designed with you in mind become nothing more than boring cakewalks. Because then everyone is just gonna yawn their way through the game and that's no fun for anyone involved.
Well 1st of before you do any thing why not ask the players about his character in question. Personally i find it fun when i, and my party for the most pat, live through encounters. If they have no quarrels whit his character and there having fun then why impede on his fun. As the DM you need to remember its not you job to win its you job to referee and tell a decent story. If you want to win dont be a dm.
I would also like to note that even though he is some what untouchable that does not mean his allies are untouchable. It also does not stop the more intelligent enemies from trying to run away and relay info to there allies.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't really know if what he's currently doing is really overpowered, but you need to be in control of the game if you're the GM, if you don't like a Feat, you don't allow it, you don't allow players to be using a broader array of crunch than you can understand. Having NPCs use similar builds is totally fine and normal, I mean, ultimately there isn't a reason you shouldn't use similar tactics if he WASN'T doing this already. I would not target him directly in ways that aren't justified by the setting, but these are just normal feats useful to Rogues, he's not actually that special... otherwise you're dealing with out of game problems with in game measures.
Besides the details of the game itself, you should be in communication with him so you are both on the same page, if you don't want him using every trick in the book or the library, tell him that's how you're running the game and it goes for every PC and NPC, so that he can better play the game in a way enjoyable for everybody involved. Stock AP NPCs are not very optimized usually, so if you need to change that to match his playstyle, that is extra work for you, which you can accept or not accept. If the game you're running is all about a girl gang of dwarven run-aways, that's the game you're playing, and everybody should be on the same page. If you're not playing a game where characters have minmaxed abilities to the yinyang using multiple obscure sources, make that clear: otherwise you're not being upfront with him. If you're OK with limited usage of non-core material, but want to approve it on a case by case basis, tell him that. If you've lost control of the game, you can't put the responsibility for that wholly on others just because they had different assumptions than you.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
and he argues that since the enemies haven't spotted him, they shouldn't get their Dex bonus to AC versus his attacks, and therefore he should also be able to get his Sneak Attack bonus every round....
As others have mentioned, yes he is right, they are denied Dex bonus, but that only allows sneak attack within 30ft (very few things overcome this limitation)
On the larger scale, he is probably doing less damage than a 2 weapon fighting rogue that flanks, he is trying hard to operate with tactical awareness and probably 'cares' more about the layout of the combat than anyone else at the table... Having a player that is this involved in the encounters is not a bad problem to have.
I would say, allow your player to continue this within the rules, even encourage it...
Find some means to challenge his and his reliance on this tactic without making him feel singled out. For example.
spread the enemies out more. Make the battle begin more dispersed, which will make it harder for his allies to keep enemies away. If he is engaged in melee with an enemy, it will make his stealth checks difficult.
Have your enemies be willing to withdraw to better defensive locations, ones that potentially lack much cover within 30 ft.
make the cover a dynamic benefit to the enemies as well. Depending on the perception rolls as combat begins, don't allow the party to know the location of every enemy. Have some reveal themselves from their cover, or concealed approach on rounds 2 4 7.... Make the party feel threatened by fighting neck-deep in bushes... make them wary of any shrubs.
Lastly, make sure 'key' enemies utilize defensive magics effectively... wind walls.. fighting from within tiny huts... prepared cover, defensive eathworks, etc.
|
|
One of the reasons why Rogues are so underpowered in retrospect to other classes is because it is one of the few classes the require actual tactics. Positioning and feats is key to use any of the Rogue's offensive abilities unlike other classes like fighter. On top of that other classes like fighter do far more damage than a Rogue with less optimization. A Rogue to be good for his party in in combat situations has to seriously optimize for it even then he is meh in comparison with lower bab, health, and armor than any other class designed to be in melee. For the Rogues built to fight at range they do far less damage than casters, with less utility mind you, and are usually forced only to 1 attack that round, typical sniper builds, and even further limited in how far they can be from the target to get there SA, sniper goggles being exception.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Never underestimate monsters with blind sense, scent, or tremor sense. If they know he is there it nullifies it. Of course most of these have a range limitations. Have him think he is stealthed, but really he has been marked for a huge fireball and they are waiting for him to pop out of cover again.If he gets hide in plain sight, then blind sense will not help.
Why not?
Let him have his fun. All the big bad has to do to counter this is to be in a well lit room... with no bushes.
Reguarding hellcat stealth + shadow dancer: it only lets you hide in bright, normal, and dim illuminations. Give the big bad a potion of dark-vision and an oil of darkness. Nowhere to hide.
|
|
Well 1st of before you do any thing why not ask the players about his character in question. Personally i find it fun when i, and my party for the most pat, live through encounters. If they have no quarrels whit his character and there having fun then why impede on his fun. As the DM you need to remember its not you job to win its you job to referee and tell a decent story. If you want to win dont be a dm.
I would also like to note that even though he is some what untouchable that does not mean his allies are untouchable. It also does not stop the more intelligent enemies from trying to run away and relay info to there allies.
I'm not in it to "win", I'm in it to tell an exciting story, where players fight and triumph in a game that is - to quote the Spoony one, "harsh but fair". However, munchkins are in it to win, and they're certainly not beholden to such quaint notions as "fairness" or "cinematic value". I'm not saying this player of mine is an outright munchkin, but compared to everyone else in the group he's certainly the one that did the most optimizing, and the adventure as written is just not designed to support that.
I enjoy it when my players live through encounters and complete adventures as well, but I'm not about to hand them their victory on a silver platter, especially if they achieved it by exploiting the game rules (granted, there's a lot of grey area here, as Rogues in general tend to be underhanded, that's what they do). There has to be some element of risk involved, if you know the whole thing is stacked in your favor to a ridiculous extent, you WILL get bored very soon (I played in such games before, so I know what I'm talking about).
Then do you ban all full spell progression classes like Wizard. After all once a wizard learns the Invis spell he becomes more so untouchable than the Rogue were discussing about. Any wizard for example can cast Invis then proceed to use his/her turns to cast summon monsters to hide behind while the wiz him/her self hides while casting the spell. Thus creating a wall of full attacking meat shields that an enemy has to get through to find the wiz and then further has to find the Invis wiz. That mind you is a typical tactic employed by just about every wiz. Also G Invis further allows said wiz to attack targets with out breaking his/her Invis.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oh, and this is really not munchkinery. Calling it that just puts you into a me-vs-him mindset. I doubt he is stealing the spotlight from anyone with one sneak attack per round. His ability is cool but situational.
Just be glad he did not build an archer fighter who ends all of your encounters in 2 rounds.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I would like to remind you, this is my 1st time DMing D&D. I did it essentially as a favor to the players and I'm not about to engage in a power war with any of them. I guess I assumed they'd curtail their munchkin tendencies without my...
You're doing fine, and good on ya coming here for advice. But trust me, just do two things:
post his build here, let us double-check itand
wait until later and you will see why the rogue is considered one of the least powerful classes in the game.
Why not?Never underestimate monsters with blind sense, scent, or tremor sense. If they know he is there it nullifies it. Of course most of these have a range limitations. Have him think he is stealthed, but really he has been marked for a huge fireball and they are waiting for him to pop out of cover again.If he gets hide in plain sight, then blind sense will not help.
You can hide while being observed. Doesn't matter how.
|
|
Oh, and this is really not munchkinery. Calling it that just puts you into a me-vs-him mindset. I doubt he is stealing the spotlight from anyone with one sneak attack per round. His ability is cool but situational.
Just be glad he did not build an archer fighter who ends all of your encounters in 2 rounds.
Tell me about it and since those fighters have good AC because of the dex needed and Health for just being a fighter they do great in melee as well. A DM of mine had an enemy charge my archer fighter once and i smoked the target because of the Snap Shot chain and Point Blank Master. To top it off the enemy tried to run from my archer and i stopped it from moving at all thanks to the Pin Down feat. The Bow Fighter is one of the scariest things to encounter on the battle field.
|
|
One of the reasons why Rogues are so underpowered in retrospect to other classes is because it is one of the few classes the require actual tactics. Positioning and feats is key to use any of the Rogue's offensive abilities unlike other classes like fighter. On top of that other classes like fighter do far more damage than a Rogue with less optimization. A Rogue to be good for his party in in combat situations has to seriously optimize for it even then he is meh in comparison with lower bab, health, and armor than any other class designed to be in melee. For the Rogues built to fight at range they do far less damage than casters, with less utility mind you, and are usually forced only to 1 attack that round, typical sniper builds, and even further limited in how far they can be from the target to get there SA, sniper goggles being exception.I may not be a D&D expert, but I know enough to know that any class can be OP if minmaxed and optimized right. You seem to be championing the Rogue class in general here, perhaps because it's your favorite core class and you know a lot about the peculiarities and drawbacks of playing a Rogue, but I don't have a problem with Rogues as such, only exploitative gaming. To illustrate matters further, his earlier Wizard character was also a bit munchkiny because he tried to persuade me to let him have some crazy breaks on crafting prices (70-80% or more, by taking a bunch of crafting limitations based on alignment, class etc, which don't really reduce the usefulness of the item and therefore aren't limitations in my book, just free price breaks). Furthermore, I consider myself a lenient GM - I let my players have better than average stats (they rolled 2d6+6) and I interpret most situations in their favor if it makes sense at all. What I want to avoid here is the situation where a player forces me into either arbitrarily limiting his enjoyment of the character and his build, or otherwise ending up in an escalating GM-player war where I have to...
In all honesty Rogue is my least favorite of all the classes, 2nd only to Magus. I prefer Paladin over all other classes, primarily because i enjoy the limitations and rp situations that paladins get them selves in. The reason i am "championing" rogue is because it is one of the least powerful classes in game and they get no love from the community.
I though am a DM that prefers the rules over all else and follow those to the letter. What infuriates me is that as a DM you come across as the type that likes to heavily restrict there players and might even go to the extremes of imposing house rules on said characters but not your self. It may or may not be the case but ive been playing this game since 73 and have delt with a lot of DMs that do this. Ask your players how they feel about said character and have that influence your judgment. They may like the character, they may not. If you hinder a player you also hinder they party as a whole since the party is only as good as there weakest Special Snow Flake.
Also i do apologize if i come across a bit heated about the matter. As a some what new DM you should concern you self more with the rules and if the characters in question are legit or not. People will make characters as useful as they can and you should not let that get to you. If you want to counter a character just be warned not to do is often and when you do, do it with justification. Example, they fight a few bandits and the Rogue does his thing. One of the bandits notices this and conveys to his allies that he is gonna report in. That bandit and 1 more run off and the current bandits die off. Later in the game when the encounter enemies and there countering said player(s) you can state that these are the targets that received the info from those bandits you let get away. Dont counter characters just to counter them ou of the blue, it is not good DMing.
As a GM you're perfectly within your right to ban Hellcat Stealth, I would and did from my games but I did so by banning things not from the the main Pathfinder rulebooks and Hellcat Stealth is from The Pathfinder Companion: Cheliax, Empire of Devils.
Outside of that there is nothing to worry about here.
Edit:
As a general suggestion for you as a new GM tell you players they may only use the following books:
Core Rulebook
Advanced Players Guide
Advanced Race Guide – without Race Builder
Ultimate Magic
Ultimate Combat
Ultimate Equipment
Don't allow stuff outside of that, there's a lot of stuff available that can be combined in "overpowered" ways. Also, a GM needs to be familiar with any sources his/her players will being using, and you can't be expected to know every source. If you are familiar with the above you're good.
|
|
In concerns of challenging a target there has been an equation ive been using since the mid 80s. Take the to hit of all players and decided that number by the number of players. Tha number equates the AC you will want to base the creatures off. Increase or decrease that number depending on how often you want you players to hit said enemy. Use the same equation but sub the players to hit for AC to determine what a good to hit is for the monsters. Against Casters simply determine the type of energy they use most and place creatures with resist/immunities to that energy and give them decent saves and maybe SR though i advise against SR unless its a major boss or at endish game.
|
You can hide while being observed. Doesn't matter how.Why not?Never underestimate monsters with blind sense, scent, or tremor sense. If they know he is there it nullifies it. Of course most of these have a range limitations. Have him think he is stealthed, but really he has been marked for a huge fireball and they are waiting for him to pop out of cover again.If he gets hide in plain sight, then blind sense will not help.
Blindsight still negates it.
Its not just that your observed. Its that you can't hide from something that just knows your there.
|
|
Then do you ban all full spell progression classes like Wizard. After all once a wizard learns the Invis spell he becomes more so untouchable than the Rogue were discussing about. Any wizard for example can cast Invis then proceed to use his/her turns to cast summon monsters to...
If I'm not mistaken, that precisely why Wizards are limited through spells per day in the first place. So you can do that once or maybe twice per day, but once you're out of tricks, you're done. Now, there's a lot to be said about Pearls of Power and staves and whatnot, but Wizards generally have to ration out their spells and power carefully to avoid getting caught with their pants down, and you can't afford to be making assumptions. A Rogue with +50 to Stealth can be effectively invisible and effective as long as he has some cover and with the right feats, maybe even without it, in and out of combat. Plus he can have the friendly party Wizard cast Greater Invisibility on him for even greater hilarity.
There's always a flip side, isn't there?
There is a flip side that is very true.
True that wizards have to ration there spells as all spell casters, even sorcerers who get almost double the casting ability a day. Though as stated Pearls and Staves throws a wrench into the mix.
Also the +50 Stealth is more of a mid game + number were that will be one of the last things on your list to worry about. Like having said character G Invised.
I would like to remind you, this is my 1st time DMing D&D. I did it essentially as a favor to the players and I'm not about to engage in a power war with any of them. I guess I assumed they'd curtail their munchkin tendencies without my...
Sure, I wasn't giving you advice to berate you for being a bad GM, I was doing so with the idea that using it could help improve the game. Regardless of your investment in the game and responsibility as a GM, it seems like the situation is also relevant to the other players, with whom it also may be worth discussing... Doesn't really have to be some heavy thing, but if everybody isn't having fun due to the interaction of this player's actions and your actions as a GM, there's no good reason to proceed with the game. I fully understand that even if there may be things you can do to counter this, either in-game with tactics and changes to NPCs like people suggest here, or out of game dealing with the player, that it can just make the whole game not worth it for you. But if that's the case, you still need to inform the players of that... and likelier than not, being clear with the issues will help everybody come together to resolve them.
|
|
As a GM you're perfectly within your right to ban Hellcat Stealth, I would and did from my games but I did so by banning things not from the the main Pathfinder rulebooks and Hellcat Stealth is from The Pathfinder Companion: Cheliax, Empire of Devils.
Outside of that there is nothing to worry about here.
I do agree that the DM is in there right to restrict what ever they want. Though those restrictions should always be stated before actual character creation. I have restricted some books in my games simply because i do not agree with a lot of the things that are in there, ultimate combat being the primary example, but those restrictions are announced to all the players before the game even started to those in a whole. If you impose a "x" thing is not allowed and it is on there list of stuff they wanted to do then you should allow them a redo of there character since they did not get the full info of rules for the game. Some things being disallowed, especially in the middle of game, can make an entire character concept null in void.
|
How many PCs are in the party? Most of the Pathfinder adventure paths are designed for 4 or 5 players. If you are running more, or if the combats are not challenging your players, scale things up. It is your job to make it fun and keep it interesting.
As far as the sniper, keep in mind that melee combatants are going to try to charge and engage - and the sniper has to be close to inflict sneak damage. He's not overpowered if he is a rogue and trying to do his thing at range. A melee rogue is going to do a lot more damage if he gets consistent flank, but neither will compare to a well built two handed fighter.
|
Not everything is about pure damage output, you know. But when you can do sneak attacks every round and nobody can realistically find you, you may be a little OP, yes.
If he is doing sneak attack damage every round, why are his opponents standing around dumbly taking it? They could use area attacks to counter it, or alternatively, if they can't find him they could move out of range. Most people, if getting fired upon by a sniper they can't see, would ... I don't know ... take cover so they can make a tactical assessment? Try to see it from the point of view of the sniper targets.
Maybe make a ruling that everytime he uses the rogue evasion ability or passes a reflex save he gives away his position.
I do agree that the DM is in there right to restrict what ever they want. Though those restrictions should always be stated before actual character creation. I have restricted some books in my games simply because i do not agree with a lot of the things that are in there, ultimate combat being the primary example, but those restrictions are announced to all the players before the game even started to those in a whole. If you impose a "x" thing is not allowed and it is on there list of stuff they wanted to do then you should allow them a redo of there character since they did not get the full info of rules for the game. Some things being disallowed, especially in the middle of game, can make an entire character concept null in void.As a GM you're perfectly within your right to ban Hellcat Stealth, I would and did from my games but I did so by banning things not from the the main Pathfinder rulebooks and Hellcat Stealth is from The Pathfinder Companion: Cheliax, Empire of Devils.
Outside of that there is nothing to worry about here.
This person is a first time GM. I agree that it's best to tell people in advance what is restricted, but in this instance he just didn't know to do this upfront. I would allow the character to rebuild if desired, but at level 3 I doubt there is much to change around. It's not as though HellCat Stealth takes much investment, and he's a rogue so the stealth still isn't a waste.
|
|
In all honesty Rogue is my least favorite of all the classes, 2nd only to Magus. I prefer Paladin over all other classes, primarily because i enjoy the limitations and rp situations that paladins get them selves in. The reason i am "championing" rogue is because it is one of the least powerful classes in game and they get no love from the community.As I said, I have nothing against Rogues per se, if one of my players showed up with a Fighter that somehow had such high AC that nothing short of a Tarrasque could realistically hit him without getting a natural 20, I'd be wondering whether or not that character is abusively powerful as well. Fortunately this hasn't happened yet, but if I start escalating matters to bring the game up to powergamer levels, then I fully expect my other players to decide that all bets are off and they have to optimize as well to have a fighting chance. So far everyone has been more interested in roleplaying value than absolute effectiveness, but this sniper Rogue is bucking the system, so to speak, hence my apprehension.
I follow the rules wherever possible as well, but rules aren't always perfect, nor do they account for every situation. I would certainly never impose any rules on PCs that didn't also apply to my NPCs. I think a discussion concerning what kind of a game we're actually playing is definitely in order. Thank you for your advice.
Well i will state there are ways to penalize the character with out penalizing the character and the party. 1 easy way to penalize a combat player is by not focusing so much on combat more on RP. A way to get around the whole XP thing is to reward XP for RPing and completion of story arcs. This will give every one the ability to shine in there own right out side of combat. Most people that focus on combat verget all about the RP aspect of play.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I do agree that the DM is in there right to restrict what ever they want. Though those restrictions should always be stated before actual character creation. I have restricted some books in my games simply because i do not agree with a lot of the things that are in there, ultimate combat being the primary example, but those restrictions are announced to all the players before the game even started to those in a whole. If you impose a "x" thing is not allowed and it is on there list of stuff they wanted to do then you should allow them a redo of there character since they did not get the full info of rules for the game. Some things being disallowed, especially in the middle of game, can make an entire character concept null in void.As a GM you're perfectly within your right to ban Hellcat Stealth, I would and did from my games but I did so by banning things not from the the main Pathfinder rulebooks and Hellcat Stealth is from The Pathfinder Companion: Cheliax, Empire of Devils.
Outside of that there is nothing to worry about here.
Why ultimate combat?