Eh, what I've heard/seen sounds like they're placing an emphasis on humanoid enemies. With the exception of gods - excuse me, spellcasters - humanoid enemies are easy; I need data on classic enemies.
Gotcha
In the playtests that I'm running currently, I've had my group fight humanoids (some with maneuvers, some without), fey, giants, magical beasts, and undead. Next up we're going to try some more exotic stuff, like plant and elemental typed monsters. My game is fight heavy, obviously, and they've had a good time with it. They're level 5 now and approaching 6, and most of them are pretty new to Pathfinder and D20 in general. They're getting pretty good with their classes and they're learning how they as initiators work with each other and with other classes. It's pretty fun.
-X
A thing to consider for the Stalker; the monastic training stalker art (the one that gives you IUS and monk weapon proficiency). What of the player already has IUS? My thought would be to have it give Greater Unarmed Strike, or if they already have GUS, then perhaps a Style Feat. Obviously, I'm not too concerned about them already having GUS, but already having IUS seems likely to me.
EDIT: I know this is late, but I just heard about this when the Stalker was released. So I completely missed that portion of the play test.
Finally got to purchasing the Coming Soon bundle last night. Wasn't able to give it an in-depth look-over, but the art and cover alone were definitely appealing. Will get to posting a review when I have time.
A thing to consider for the Stalker; the monastic training stalker art (the one that gives you IUS and monk weapon proficiency). What of the player already has IUS? My thought would be to have it give Greater Unarmed Strike, or if they already have GUS, then perhaps a Style Feat. Obviously, I'm not too concerned about them already having GUS, but already having IUS seems likely to me.
EDIT: I know this is late, but I just heard about this when the Stalker was released. So I completely missed that portion of the play test.
I don't think that this is particularly a problem that needs to be addressed. It is potentially a problem anytime a character multiclasses. A little bit of planning will keep you from making redundant choices, it shouldn't require hand holding in the class design.
Worst case scenario, you don't get Improved Unarmed Strike upgrades for that art; you still get a dozen or so Exotic Weapon proficiencies with it :P
-X
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Knives, have Chris send you my playtest reports. For each level (5, 10, and 15) the classes fought two humanoids and two monsters or groups thereof. The first time I did Arenas I only used the bestiary and this time I added the NPC handbook enemies to get a more even appraisal. But yeah, there's dragons, gargoyles, aberrations, and so forth.
Just an update:
Working out the last of the archetypes and working on prestige classes as well. Just a heads up! More releases are coming soon.
Quick question with prestige classes: Do you all like your classes filled with fluff that ties the prestige class to a specific organization, group, place (like most of the PF PrC's or ToB classes like the Jade Phoenix or the Ruby Knight) or people or do you like your prestige classes a little more dressed down and let yourself just fill in the blanks from there and apply it as needed (think eldritch knight)
-X
Quick question with prestige classes: Do you all like your classes filled with fluff that ties the prestige class to a specific organization, group, place (like most of the PF PrC's or ToB classes like the Jade Phoenix or the Ruby Knight) or people or do you like your prestige classes a little more dressed down and let yourself just fill in the blanks from there and apply it as needed (think eldritch knight)
Personal freedoms are always a plus, a lot of people use homebrew settings and choice is a big part of the game. Sucks when you don't use an organization or idea and you may as well just wipe out most or even all the description parts with black marker. I don't think I know anyone who used the fluff out of the original TOB. You can still make a class very descriptive or interesting without tying it to a piece of fluff that won't be used.
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Just an update:
Working out the last of the archetypes and working on prestige classes as well. Just a heads up! More releases are coming soon.
Quick question with prestige classes: Do you all like your classes filled with fluff that ties the prestige class to a specific organization, group, place (like most of the PF PrC's or ToB classes like the Jade Phoenix or the Ruby Knight) or people or do you like your prestige classes a little more dressed down and let yourself just fill in the blanks from there and apply it as needed (think eldritch knight)
-X
Dressed down. It is easier fitting it into home campaigns that way. If the fluff is going to have to be changed to make it it fit into those campaigns, I'd rather it not be there to begin with.
I'm in the middle with the fluff of PrCs. Having a back story for it gives it some direction, an idea of how it fits into the world in general. And honestly for every person who ignores the given fluff there will be another for whom the fluff gives an idea or start point for something new in their world, fill in a missing niche. Just about all the people I play with will tweak given PrC "organizations" to fit their world, but very few out right strip it totally. As long as the fluff doesn't completely misrepresent the mechanics of the class, it is useful.
Writing up a complete world is time consuming, a job not everyone can do or invest the time they might want to. I believe more people will welcome fluff, even if they have to alter it a little bit for their world, than be annoyed that it is there at all.
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I'm with Skylancer. I have no issue with renaming or adjusting a PrC's fluff to fit my world, or adding a previously non-existent organization or group mentioned in such fluff to my world if I don't already have something that fits it, and sometimes that fluff can be inspiring for ideas to spin off it. At the same time, I'm not opposed to a blank slate class that can be slotted in anywhere, either.
Why do people think it has to have no fluff if its not attached to an organization or something specific to a setting?
My preference would be for PrC fluff to be similar to those in the Complete series of 3.5 supplements--not tied to a specific organization, but good enough to give a lot of ideas, and adaptable enough to fit it into any setting.
I think this might be the best way to go; just enough fluff to give the class some flavor, but not so much as to overwhelm it and cause it to be restrictive if any fluff at all goes into it.
-X
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Eh, what I've heard/seen sounds like they're placing an emphasis on humanoid enemies. With the exception of gods - excuse me, spellcasters - humanoid enemies are easy; I need data on classic enemies.
We've actually run against almost every critter out there, humanoids just generally get talked about more because that's where the most interesting interactions occur with the initiator classes.
Initiators have some interesting and unique advantages (as I'm sure you're aware) in that DR is almost a non-issue for them. I actually found myself frustrated by energy resistance on for more occasions (primarily because of the fact I like ranged classes and Solar Wind's starting stance d4 of fire damage kept proving worthless in a variety of events).Initiators start getting their stuff pushed in when they run up against humanoids more often than any other situation because of their reliance on their weapons. The monk, one of the most poorly designed classes in the game, can just ruin an initiator's day with a flurry of maneuvers. Initiator's can become so reliant on their weapon(s) if you don't diversify enough that taking them away with a simple Disarm can be absolutely catastrophic. By comparison, dragons, gargoyles, krakens, spellcasters etc. are cake. Traps can be rough, but mainly just because there aren't any initiator classes with Trapfinding. I assume that's not a big deal since the classes are meant to be integrated into the existing material, not exist independently.
So anyways, we haven't been ignoring critters, we just talk about humanoids more because that's where the weirdest interactions occur. I'd rather play any initiator over a monk, rogue, or fighter, but by that same token, monks and fighters are the characters most likely to just completely own up on a wide swath of Initiator builds (basically any that don't include at least a modicum of unarmed techniques).
Eh, what I've heard/seen sounds like they're placing an emphasis on humanoid enemies. With the exception of gods - excuse me, spellcasters - humanoid enemies are easy; I need data on classic enemies.We've actually run against almost every critter out there, humanoids just generally get talked about more because that's where the most interesting interactions occur with the initiator classes.
Initiators have some interesting and unique advantages (as I'm sure you're aware) in that DR is almost a non-issue for them. I actually found myself frustrated by energy resistance on for more occasions (primarily because of the fact I like ranged classes and Solar Wind's starting stance d4 of fire damage kept proving worthless in a variety of events).Initiators start getting their stuff pushed in when they run up against humanoids more often than any other situation because of their reliance on their weapons. The monk, one of the most poorly designed classes in the game, can just ruin an initiator's day with a flurry of maneuvers. Initiator's can become so reliant on their weapon(s) if you don't diversify enough that taking them away with a simple Disarm can be absolutely catastrophic. By comparison, dragons, gargoyles, krakens, spellcasters etc. are cake. Traps can be rough, but mainly just because there aren't any initiator classes with Trapfinding. I assume that's not a big deal since the classes are meant to be integrated into the existing material, not exist independently.
...Huh. I find the bolded statement fascinating - can you describe that more in-depth for me?
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Ladies and gentlemen, I'm very pleased to announce the release of the Quills and their associated discipline Cursed Razor. Razor's my very first full discipline and I'm pretty nervous about letting it out into the wild; lemme know where the problems are so I can get them fixed up.
For ease of use and so you don't have to wrap your mouth around a giant phrase, we're changing the term "primary initiating attribute modifier" to simply "initiation modifier". That is all.
-X
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...Huh. I find the bolded statement fascinating - can you describe that more in-depth for me?
Sure.
There are a bunch of factors that come in to play that make initiators run into more trouble with humanoids than most other monsters, particularly humanoids with unusual capabilities or defenses like the monk. I could talk about initiators interactions with other classes and critters all day, but I'm guessing the statement about the monk pushing just about any initiators stuff in is probably what caught your attention so I'll focus on that:First and foremost, initiators have pretty average to-hit values. They don't really get any static bonuses, and there aren't even many maneuvers or stances that improve their actual to-hit values, instead generally relying on greater damage with their full BAB, targeting different defenses, etc. The fact that they do substantially more damage per hit when they do connect also trivializes DR, allowing them to skirt around something that's usually a pretty real issue
That's usually more than enough, because the game is actually balanced for characters like the Rogue and Monk to have something resembling a reasonable chance to hit and do damage against most level appropriate challenges.
And speaking of the monk... What I've been getting at is that initiators has three major weaknesses, one of which is also their strength. The first is their lack of reliable ways to actually increase their to-hit value. Normally they have the option to switch tactics and utilize maneuvers that target a different defense, like Touch AC, but that doesn't work very well against opponents whose Touch AC is the same or nearly the same as their regular AC (i.e. most monks).
Their second big weakness is their reliance on their weapons. I think this was also kind of the main point you were interested in talking about. This weakness varies quite a bit with build but can be anywhere from severely handicapping to hardly noticeable depending on your discipline and class. The DC's of their maneuvers tend to hinge on that bump you get from using discipline weapons since you're not terribly likely to max out your "casting stat" being a primarily martial character and needing to support STR, CON, and likely DEX, and they tend to be a little easier to disarm since they tend to have less shoring up their CMD and (with the exception of the Warder) are more likely to take a beating trying to recover a lost weapon due to their relatively low AC. Once more, a weakness that the monk in particular is specialized to take advantage of. A relatively mediocre monk can own up on a well-built initiator all day if he (the monk that is) has a good disarming weapon. The upside here is that if you snag Improved Unarmed Strike and/or Broken Blade (or Quickdraw and a bunch of back up weapons) you can usually work your way through.
The third big weakness is the one that's also their big strength. and that's their reliance on Standard action attacks. This is worst for ranged initiators, because there's a surprisingly large number of builds with Snatch/Deflect Arrows (not to mention all the other ranged shutdowns out there), but there's a surprisingly large number of abilities like Crane Wing that allow a character to shut down one melee attack a round (there's some monsters out there who can effectively do this too). Turns out that having one attack a round shut down, which is fairly annoying for most characters, can be damn near catastrophic for initiators.
This post is getting really big and I have to work on some stuff, but I'll jump back in and talk about this a bit more later.
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Ladies and gentlemen, I'm very pleased to announce the release of the Quills and their associated discipline Cursed Razor. Razor's my very first full discipline and I'm pretty nervous about letting it out into the wild; lemme know where the problems are so I can get them fixed up.
OH MAN THAT FLAVOR.
Oh I LIKE these guys. Maybe even LOVE them. I am going to HAVE to integrate Whisper into my homebrew setting somehow. This is AWESOME.
I'll get back to you later on the discipline itself, but I just had to come right up and say that now.
First and foremost, initiators have pretty average to-hit values. They don't really get any static bonuses, and there aren't even many maneuvers or stances that improve their actual to-hit values, instead generally relying on greater damage with their full BAB, targeting different defenses, etc. The fact that they do substantially more damage per hit when they do connect also trivializes DR, allowing them to skirt around something that's usually a pretty real issue
That's usually more than enough, because the game is actually balanced for characters like the Rogue and Monk to have something resembling a reasonable chance to hit and do damage against most level appropriate challenges.And speaking of the monk... What I've been getting at is that initiators has three major weaknesses, one of which is also their strength. The first is their lack of reliable ways to actually increase their to-hit value. Normally they have the option to switch tactics and utilize maneuvers that target a different defense, like Touch AC, but that doesn't work very well against opponents whose Touch AC is the same or nearly the same as their regular AC (i.e. most monks).
I have to disagree with your first point somewhat; Warlord gets static bonuses through battle prowess, bonuses through teamwork and tactical aid and assistance, and can deliver bonuses through gambits. Warlords and warders both can grant bonuses to the team through Golden Lion. Stalker just hates you, but that's not your fault. But I will say it is indeed harder for them to get more static bonuses, you're right there, and they do rely on heavier singlular hits than other classes do. Overall, the difference is neglible. Stalkers have a myriad of ways of hitting different defenses and the warder and warlord aren't short on them either. I'm okay with monk having a small advantage, but it's just that: tiny. Magus do it better.
Their second big weakness is their reliance on their weapons. I think this was also kind of the main point you were interested in talking about. This weakness varies quite a bit with build but can be anywhere from severely handicapping to hardly noticeable depending on your discipline and class. The DC's of their maneuvers tend to hinge on that bump you get from using discipline weapons since you're not terribly likely to max out your "casting stat" being a primarily martial character and needing to support STR, CON, and likely DEX, and they tend to be a little easier to disarm since they tend to have less shoring up their CMD and (with the exception of the Warder) are more likely to take a beating trying to recover a lost weapon due to their relatively low AC. Once more, a weakness that the monk in particular is specialized to take advantage of. A relatively mediocre monk can own up on a well-built initiator all day if he (the monk that is) has a good disarming weapon. The upside here is that if you snag Improved Unarmed Strike and/or Broken Blade (or Quickdraw and a bunch of back up weapons) you can usually work your way through.
Calling an initiator's weakness a reliance on weapons is pretty much point a finger at the system like the Evil Monkey from Family Guy, I have to say. Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins, Rangers, Rogues, Cavaliers, and Ninjas suffer tons, monk suffers some himself, and Magus, Bard and Inquisitor suffer to a lesser degree. Unless you're spec'd for it, losing your weapon pretty much sucks hard for everyone.
The CMB/CMD system has much to answer for as well, basically making larger opponents immune to most effects and better than half of all attempts if the character can avoid an attack of opportunity are successful in my experience; the other half FAIL spectacularly and there's really not a middle ground. The DC bump and the split focus between mental and physical is there to help ground the classes a bit and also let you choose: Physical prowess with less complex maneuvers, or more mental prowess and better use of more complex maneuvers and good solid use out of class features.
The third big weakness is the one that's also their big strength. and that's their reliance on Standard action attacks. This is worst for ranged initiators, because there's a surprisingly large number of builds with Snatch/Deflect Arrows (not to mention all the other ranged shutdowns out there), but there's a surprisingly large number of abilities like Crane Wing that allow a character to shut down one melee attack a round (there's some monsters out there who can effectively do this too). Turns out that having one attack a round shut down, which is fairly annoying for most characters, can be damn near catastrophic for initiators.
This I will agree with you on for the big strengths and a potential failing. You do nail this one. I disagree with you more on the previous two based on my theories and experience with it, but hey, it's appreciated input regardless. It's helpful, and really my only gripe is that I do majorly disagree with your 2nd point. So... 50% with you on the first and 90% with you on the 3rd, but I gotta say I'm only about 10% with you on the 2nd.
-X
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You know it's funny, I didn't realize the Warlord was still getting Battle Prowess at this point. With all of the other changes that have been going on I kind of thought that was out the door.
And I realize that the Initiator being reliant on weapons isn't unique to them, but it's something that you don't see in other Tier 3 classes. A Fighter is much more difficult to disarm. A cavalier who has his lance or sword taken away is still an armored guy on a dangerous horse. A disarmed monk will always have his fists, whereas an initiator only has that fall-back with very specific builds. A Magus (the first of these classes that actually is in the same Tier as the initiator classes) has a variety of spells at his disposal, spells whose base effectiveness is not contingent on the weapon he's wielding. Bard's (excepting a few builds) can basically switch tactics a little bit and suffer virtually no setback. An initiator who loses his weapon isn't just losing his sword or bow, he's losing at least +2 to the DC of his maneuvers (and potentially other setbacks). And as mentioned, for the Stalker and Warlord who both have weaker armor proficiencies, they're more likely to take a beating trying to get that weapon back.
Anyways, all of that wasn't an indictment of the classes in any way; every class should have weaknesses. It was just me attempting to explain why I like talking about the interactions between initiators and humanoids with martial class levels more than monsters or casters.
As a general rule of thumb, initiators are great against monsters. One of the biggest sticking points for a lot of classes and builds, DR, is a non-issue for initiator classes thanks to their higher damage per hit (which coincidentally also helps them own up on casters, both by circumventing defenses and by hitting them so hard they don't have time to make trouble); the increased mobility inherent to the system makes them better at dealing with hit-and-run monsters like dragons and harpies; and the variety of maneuvers and disciplines available means most initiators are going to be able to go after at least one additional defense or slap on some additional effects or typed damage, an option not available to most martial classes (or only available as part of a complex feat chain or archetype).
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Hi! So, Whisper and Quills and Cursed Razor. Neat stuff here. Flavor is great. Loving everything about it.
Mechanics are a little wonky. Spilled Salt is unclear about what trigger it.
Not sure how Touch of the Witch works. If I'm in the stance and I hit someone who is not cursed with the Mockery Maneuver, do I deal bonus damage or do I have to hit him once and then hit him with Mockery for the bonus? Basically, what's the order of operations here?
Aura of Iron's Betrayal seems a little strong for a 3rd level stance. That's quite a few penalties to stack up on someone. The last sentence is also kind of confusing. Is it meant to mean that cursed creatures must save again after the duration of keep the broken condition on their gear?
Thirst of the Vampire also seems kind of strong. I'd have to look around and see if there are level 5 spells with that kind of stat damage.
Eye for an Eye, just making sure I have this right, you still take damage and status effects and everything but the target of the counter also takes them? Right? He doesn't get them INSTEAD of you, right?
You can't apply something from Luckdrinker's Aura to yourself? Or is this one of those cases where you count as an ally to yourself?
Good news! There's also stuff I love!
I love Shadow Pin. Counters that trigger on movement and such are great and something I've been waiting to see.
Curse of Chains is also super sweet. Warlock's Blow made me pee a little. With glee.
Traitor's Roar is crazy fun.
Warlock's Mirror will wreck someone's day. Phenomenal.
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Aaand here's some responses!
Hi! So, Whisper and Quills and Cursed Razor. Neat stuff here. Flavor is great. Loving everything about it.
^_^ Thank you!
Mechanics are a little wonky. Spilled Salt is unclear about what trigger it.
Unlike some counters, Spilled Salt is not triggered and can simply be used any time you have an available immediate/swift action.
Not sure how Touch of the Witch works. If I'm in the stance and I hit someone who is not cursed with the Mockery Maneuver, do I deal bonus damage or do I have to hit him once and then hit him with Mockery for the bonus? Basically, what's the order of operations here?
That's...an interesting question. I think - and don't quote me because I don't actually know - but I think all effects that 'ride' an event are applied at the same time, which means that the creature would count as not being cursed for Mockery.
Aura of Iron's Betrayal seems a little strong for a 3rd level stance. That's quite a few penalties to stack up on someone. The last sentence is also kind of confusing. Is it meant to mean that cursed creatures must save again after the duration of keep the broken condition on their gear?
Your interpretation is correct; Cursed creatures risk having their gear get broken and stay broken until they can get away and stay away. Or die, of course. That being said, this is Revision 2 on that particular Aura and if you've got cleaner wording I'd love to have it (seriously, wording this thing has been the second-most annoying thing I've had to do for this discipline). I'll look into the power level concerns.
Thirst of the Vampire also seems kind of strong. I'd have to look around and see if there are level 5 spells with that kind of stat damage.
Thirst is meant to be strong, but it does have some limitations. Obviously it doesn't work on anything without a Con score, but it's also a progressive effect that can be saved against. While Restoration and similar spells won't actually remove it they'll put your Con back where it belongs so you can save properly.
Eye for an Eye, just making sure I have this right, you still take damage and status effects and everything but the target of the counter also takes them? Right? He doesn't get them INSTEAD of you, right?
Your understanding is correct! ^_^
You can't apply something from Luckdrinker's Aura to yourself? Or is this one of those cases where you count as an ally to yourself?
In Pathfinder you are technically always your own ally. For my work, if I want something to not affect you, I'll use the phrase "other allies" or "an ally (other than yourself)".
Thank you for the feedback!
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I'd change to wording for Aura of Iron's betrayal to something like:
"When the duration ends, creatures suffering from a curse effect must save again or continue to be effected by this maneuver for the same duration. Creatures not suffering from a curse effect are immune for one hour after their possession lose the broken condition."
It's more wordy, I know, but defining the situation for affected enemies that are or are not cursed really helps.
Hi everyone first I'd like to say first and foremost thank you. I happen to be in Chris's beta game (I was the only one brave enough to do the Warlord lol). Anyway without your guy's experience all this has evolved to it's current state.
I had and am playing the original warlord that he first made and the one now. and the changes are noticeable. I've had an interesting time playing my warlord because i kind of gimped him by accident in the A.C. department oops >.<. I do think one of the archetypes was inspired by me since my focus in Primal Fury and Golden Lion(it will always be Devil Tiger to me lol)with a sprinkle of Scarlet Throne. Now as to the inspiration thing i would have to have Chris's confirmation on it. As he said we are level 5 and starting to really figure out the classes and how they can work well with each other and how they can really get the jobs done. :D
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How long until the Work In Progress bundle on Paizo is updated? =D
EDIT: Nevermind, checking My Downloads says it already has been updated Today. Woohoo! Will check it out as soon as I get home.
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Minutes!
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How long until the Work In Progress bundle on Paizo is updated? =D
EDIT: Nevermind, checking My Downloads says it already has been updated Today. Woohoo! Will check it out as soon as I get home.
I'm so glad I bought the running subscription. Not only was it a good deal, it just makes life easier to not have to go in and buy this piece by piece :)
I'm so glad I bought the running subscription. Not only was it a good deal, it just makes life easier to not have to go in and buy this piece by piece :)How long until the Work In Progress bundle on Paizo is updated? =D
EDIT: Nevermind, checking My Downloads says it already has been updated Today. Woohoo! Will check it out as soon as I get home.
Yup, same =D
I have a question. Mostly because this thread is too long to find the information that I'm looking for; does "the complete maneuver combat system" mean the totality of maneuvers that will be included into the final book? Basically how much repeat information is in each of the class entries? I got part one and am determining whether or not to get the pdfs as they come out or the final book(s)
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Warlord is now available here, and you should have received your update notification email for the Work-in-Progress. :D
I have a question. Mostly because this thread is too long to find the information that I'm looking for; does "the complete maneuver combat system" mean the totality of maneuvers that will be included into the final book? Basically how much repeat information is in each of the class entries? I got part one and am determining whether or not to get the pdfs as they come out or the final book(s)
There is some overlap; some classes do share access to some disciplines, and we include all the disciplines that class currently has access to for completeness' sake. If you have stalker, you're going to see Thrashing Dragon and Solar Wind in the Warlord document, but the Warlord also offers Golden Lion, Scarlet Throne, and Primal Fury.
-X
Update for you all!
Here's some prestige classes to check out. Let me know what you think! Fluff and mechanical critiques welcome, and I could really use a better name for the Battle Magi and Battle Priest.
-X
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Let's see Battle Magi..
There's the obvious Spellsword; Arcane Blade, Warstorm, Bladecaster, and the Eldritch Edge are other names I could see working.
The Battle Priest....
Faithblade, Divine Hand, Wrathleader, Faith's Edge, Templar of Battle, Inspired Warrior...
I'll let you know if I think of anything else.
Classes look good, I'll try and run them through their paces (though I still owe Prince some playtest data on Whisper and Quills and Cursed Razor).
Updated to fix a few things with Dragon Fury's entry reqs and apparently I forgot how to English when writing Umbral Blade's opening fluff.
-X
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I just discovered yesterday that DSP was publishing this and bought a subscription on the spot.
The original ToB is a lot of the reason that my group still plays d20 3.5/PF at all. Back in the waning days of 3.5, I (the GM) and my group's most optimized player were rather dismayed about the vast melee/caster gap and the brain-crunching difficulty of making any melee work aside from "Falchion Fred" the strength THF warrior until we found the ToB. It definitely narrows the gap in the commonly played level brackets. I'm really happy to see that there's enough ToB love to support new ToB-compatible material. I'm already incorporating the Path of War into my 3.5/PF hybrid home game.
Has anybody had any luck blending the original 3.5 Martial Discipline material with Path of War? I love all of the new classes and styles, but they definitely do not just substitute for original ToB material on a 1-for-1 basis - everything I've read so far out of Stalker and Warlord seems to be blazing completely new trails with the maneuver system, so to me the only thing that seems more exciting than having a maneuver system in Pathfinder is blending the two and having five or six maneuver classes choosing from almost twenty styles. I'm thinking about allowing ToB classes in my game to learn appropriately-themed Path of War styles and vice versa, and allowing the Martial Training feat chain to apply to a ToB style if desired by the player.
Also, Deadly Agility makes all of my dreams come true! : D
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I'm waiting until all of them are out, but then integrating the Warlord, Stalker, and Warder alongside the Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade is definitely a top priority. I just want to have all the PoW styles in one place to look at before I try picking and choosing who should get what.
Perfectly timed too, as my PF-only Kingmaker game is about halfway through, and my next game will be going back to my old group's standard 3.5/PF hybrid. (Though we've been slowly incorporating 3.5 stuff into the KM game over time - I pull out 3.5 monsters all the time, and after some time of frustration ended up falling back on the Magic Item Compendium for interesting magical loot, and we just yesterday converted the Warmage to PF for the blaster-mage who couldn't get Wizard or Magus to give him what he wanted for his character's combat style. He loves it BTW.)
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I'm waiting until all of them are out, but then integrating the Warlord, Stalker, and Warder alongside the Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade is definitely a top priority. I just want to have all the PoW styles in one place to look at before I try picking and choosing who should get what.
Perfectly timed too, as my PF-only Kingmaker game is about halfway through, and my next game will be going back to my old group's standard 3.5/PF hybrid. (Though we've been slowly incorporating 3.5 stuff into the KM game over time - I pull out 3.5 monsters all the time, and after some time of frustration ended up falling back on the Magic Item Compendium for interesting magical loot, and we just yesterday converted the Warmage to PF for the blaster-mage who couldn't get Wizard or Magus to give him what he wanted for his character's combat style. He loves it BTW.)
My 3.5/PF game just had its first session after a multi-year hiatus a few nights ago so time's not on my side for this one. :p
However, I and my most system-competent player are both looking over the two completed classes from PoW with the intent of blending them into the campaign world, which already includes ToB, as "recently re-discovered ancient martial disciplines from the ruins of Xen'drik" (its an Eberron game). The PCs are already established, so the most I think I'm going to be dealing with on the PC side of things is a player with a ToB class asking to incorporate a single new style.
I'm going to create some antagonists that use the new styles and classes and see how it goes, and then try blending them as the newly discovered ancient arts get incorporated into society, and see gradually if doing so causes OP PCs or NPCs.
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My 3.5/PF game just had its first session after a multi-year hiatus a few nights ago so time's not on my side for this one. :p
However, I and my most system-competent player are both looking over the two completed classes from PoW with the intent of blending them into the campaign world, which already includes ToB, as "recently re-discovered ancient martial disciplines from the ruins of Xen'drik" (its an Eberron game). The PCs are already established, so the most I think I'm going to be dealing with on the PC side of things is a player with a ToB class asking to incorporate a single new style.
I'm going to create some antagonists that use the new styles and classes and see how it goes, and then try blending them as the newly discovered ancient arts get incorporated into society, and see gradually if doing so causes OP PCs or NPCs.
You should definitely consider introducing the Warder as well. The Archer Lord archetype (I'm blanking on what Chris changed the name to) was one I used to introduce super nasty drow warriors with Xendrik Boomerangs who just rocked my party's world (both in the "Holy crap that was awesome!" way and in the "OMG, what the hell was that and what did we do to deserve it?!!?" way).
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You should definitely consider introducing the Warder as well. The Archer Lord archetype (I'm blanking on what Chris changed the name to) was one I used to introduce super nasty drow warriors with Xendrik Boomerangs who just rocked my party's world (both in the "Holy crap that was awesome!" way and in the "OMG, what the hell was that and what did we do to deserve it?!!?" way).My 3.5/PF game just had its first session after a multi-year hiatus a few nights ago so time's not on my side for this one. :p
However, I and my most system-competent player are both looking over the two completed classes from PoW with the intent of blending them into the campaign world, which already includes ToB, as "recently re-discovered ancient martial disciplines from the ruins of Xen'drik" (its an Eberron game). The PCs are already established, so the most I think I'm going to be dealing with on the PC side of things is a player with a ToB class asking to incorporate a single new style.
I'm going to create some antagonists that use the new styles and classes and see how it goes, and then try blending them as the newly discovered ancient arts get incorporated into society, and see gradually if doing so causes OP PCs or NPCs.
Ok, that does sound cool. I'll take a look at the playtest version and see if I can work it into my game. Looking forward to the "official" version too, of course. This subscription is already worth the asking price and I haven't even read all of the disciplines yet. My group is full of ToB fans and the opportunity to more than double the size of my PF game's primary crunch for "martials" is the best new PF item I could have hoped for.
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So I've been promising Prince I'd give some feedback on the Quills and Cursed Razor for a while now, so I'm actually going to do that.
First off, the Quills: This is great fluff here. I could see the Quills clicking right in to existing campaigns, needing only minor alterations to be servants of Vecna, agents of Vol in Eberron, or agents of Norgorber in Golarion. I was immediately picturing creating a good-natured Warlord who's secretly an evil member of the Quills dedicated to ensuring control over the flow of knowledge on some dark, eldritch subject.... That I haven't decided on yet.
As to Curse Razor and it's maneuvers: I love that there is a discipline dedicated to destroying enemies with curses. It's wicked, it's gnarly, it fills a gap that hasn't been properly occupied since 3.5's Hexblade, only mechanically sound.
There's a few maneuvers that I worry might be a bit powerful at the levels they're gained; Stutter Strike could be a brutal blow used against spellcasters; Touch of the Witch I'm just confused about. Cursed (unless I'm missing something) isn't really a defined condition, so is a target subjected to this ability just counted as Cursed for the purposes of the initiators other abilities, or are they actually afflicted as though by a Bestow Curse spell? If it's the second option, this ability is waaaayyyyy too strong. If the first option is correct, then Woedrinker, the 7th level Boost, is potentially crazy powerful; I'd just start tagging my teammates before major battles to help get a +10 or better to attack and damage and 50 or more temp hp without even having to try hard.
I should note, while I just pointed out the things I had concerns about, the bulk of this stuff is really fun, themey, and generally awesome.
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Okay, I'm only going to clarify on Touch of the Witch at the moment, not because I'm not worried about the Stutter Strike concern but because I am extremely intoxicated and this is about the level of coherency available to me right now.
The cursed condition is defined at the beginning of Cursed Razor. With that said, it essentially means, 'Cursed Razor does more stuff to you'. I could've worded it as 'under a curse effect' or 'under an effect with the cursed descriptor' but I felt that 'cursed' would be more elegant and easier to read and understand at a glance. All 'cursed' means, as a condition, is that Cursed Razor will do more stuff to you (though future content may expand on cursed as a vulnerability - always plan for later books!). With that in mind, Touch of the Witch only triggers on melee attacks, which means that tagging one's allies before a fight involves both exposing them to maneuvers, powers, and spells that care about 'cursed' and dealing the hit point damage if you want your Bag of Rats effect.
It doesn't actually affect things if you use a Bag of Rats, though.
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Prestige classes updated! Get em here!
-X
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Prestige classes updated! Get em here!
-X
Sweet!
The PCs in my game are about to face off against a bunch of angry, ancient Warforged battle-mages in Xen'drik (they killed the leader because he was plotting to declare war on non-constructs). After the last fight, they're expecting many of the Warforged to have the Magus class or be straight Wizards, but I think instead I will have them find an ancient tome called "The Path of War" detailing ancient martial styles which will foreshadow their encounter with a group of Bladecasters seeking revenge for the death of their master and using martial maneuvers long forgotten...
Can't wait to give it a shot!
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OH MAAAN
Also I love the Boomerang Drow and Ancient War Machines concepts.