Well, yeah, but that is not what the RAW says. I'm just pointing out the wording is wrong. I've checked every maneuver on all disciplines on both documents, and they all say, 'primary initiator attribute'. It lacks a 'modifier' at the end of that. Gotta point those things on playtest, it's what playtests are for.
Edit: Grammar. I've expended all my focus on the first post. Should go to bed.
I have fixed all that in the next playtest bundle for both. It's attribute modifier, not the whole attribute. But thank you for pointing it out!
-Chris
New and updated warlord, see original post!
8/27/13
-moved dual stances to 20th level
-made gambits full round actions
-moved jackpot gambit to 15th
-added Battle Prowess class feature
-added improved warleader class feature
-re-added the recovery method to recover a single maneuver without a gambit
-a couple of bug fixes in the disciplines here and there
New stalker version uploaded. Check it out in the OP.
CHANGELOG
8/27/13
-Re-organized ki arts, combat insight abilities
-added class dodge bonus
-re-did the martial training feats to be a 6 feat chain
-added new feats, made edits to a few others
-TONS of bug fixes in the disciplines
-changed capstone to no longer negate the benefits of the level 8 class feature
-removed ki requirements for combat insight
-a few tweaks to the stalker arts
-made weapon groups be associated to disciplines as opposed to specific sets of weapons
-Chris
So I know I need more stalker arts. What would you like to see?
-Chris
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Impressionist.
Design Manager
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So I know I need more stalker arts. What would you like to see?
-Chris
A Mimicry ability allowing him to copy a maneuver he's recently seen used in combat. I don't know if that's what Cheapy was getting at or if he was implying a Bluff/Disguise-based ability to imitate another character/NPC outside of combat. That would be cool too.
An ability that allows the Stalker to pick one trick from the Skirmisher Ranger's Hunter Tricks list useable 1+WIS times a day would be themey and cool.
Also, it'd be cool if the Style Access ability were expanded / elaborated upon to allow him to use it to advance a style feat chain after taking the initial style feat. You know, most style feat chains only have the [Style] descriptor on the first feat in the chain so it seems like as written Style Access would only allow you to take the initial Style feat.
For Example:
Dragon Style is a Style feat, but Dragon Ferocity and Dragon Roar are just Combat feats with Dragon Style as a prereq.
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I'm almost done reviewing Stalker and his various disciplines but I had a couple general questions.
1. How do feats like Power Attack interact with maneuvers? Does it only work on swift actions maneuvers so that you're making a normal attack roll after or is a strike or counter or whatever considered a melee attack for the purposes of these feats?
2. What about deadly aim?
3. How do feats like power attack, piranha strike and deadly aim work with techniques that replace "normal" damage with the results of a skill check like Hell Cat's Frenzy?
Replacing damage with SKILL CHECKS?!
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I've mentioned a couple Stalker Arts I'd like to see but I'll post them here as well as some other thoughts I had.
A stalker art that gives poison use--I know there is the Steel Serpent Stance but it just doesn't give enough to make it worth while. Its good for out of combat switching into to apply poison to weapons but really doesn't allow for that much. I think instead having a stalker art giving poison use would be all around better for the class. Maybe reworking that stance to instead give a +2 to the DC of poisons or something.
A stalker art that gives Wis Mod to AC--I'd also settle for just getting Wis to my CMD as well. I think it would a valuable addition to give him some defensive mechanics other than counters.
A stalker art that lets you count your Deadly Strike dice as Sneak attack dice for the purposes of feats or class pre-requisites.
Some more out of combat arts would be good as well, like Ssalarn was saying, but getting some sort of Disguise ability, the class name Stalker in visions a hunter of man, it would make sense if he could have a way to blend in better in populated areas. Almost like a Favored Terrain Urban sort of deal but more centered on bluff, diplomacy and disguise.
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Yeah, cornered Frenzy Strike too. Both are in Devil Tiger. I think there are a few other in other disciplines, too.
It occurs to me that those abilities should probably have some additional verbage covering how they work. You aren't rolling damage, so what happens when you have magic weapons? If I'm using Frenzy Strike against a white dragon and I have a Flaming weapon, what portion, if any, of my damage is fire damage? If/when I crit, am I multiplying my skill check by my weapon's multiplier?
As Yuengling asked, how do damage modification feats like Power Attack factor in?My thoughts- Probably put in a note that the damage done by these maneuvers is not multiplied on a crit, and is always considerd to be of a type determined by the weapon wielded (slashing, bludgeoning, etc).
I almost want to say that weapon special properties probably shouldn't be factored in to this damage or damage type, as that's just a big mess to mitigate. If you make the whole damage of the appropriate type, you potentially make the maneuver substantially more powerful (a DC 32 skill check is a lot more fire damage than you'd get from a d6!), and anything else is just.... cumbersome. I would probably have Power Attack function basically like normal, adding its damage bonus directly to the skill roll.
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I was not fond of the WOTC book. Why should I like this one better ?
What's in for me ?
What's in for the already quite damaged game balance ?
Why don't you read the playtest documents and find out! Critical thinking is for winners!
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I'm done with Stalker now. Mostly good changes in V2.
Feats:
Deadly Agility: Still kind of hate this. Good on you for replacing Piranha Strike from the prereqs, but I think Lightning Reflexes is too good of a feat to be a real tax for a powerful feat like this. Consider something crap like Athletic or Acrobatic.
Martial Disciplines
Steel Serpent summary: Currently says “…become a supernatural poison in and off itself.”
Crescent Moon
Ghost Hunting Blow: I’d change “attacks made this round” to “attacks made until the initiator’s next turn” for clarity.
Fading Strike: What is “maximum movement speed?” A single move action or double?
Formless Dance: Thank the Jeebus you changed this. My only gripe is I hate rolling twice when once would suffice. Why not just get a dodge bonus to AC instead of the 20% miss chance?
Warp Worm: Says “taget”in the second sentences prenthetical instead of “target” Also, this is 100% awesome.
Dispersal Strike: Once again, fully awesome.
Flashing Ether Touch: Really cool but kind of confusing, too. If they are simply teleported laterally 60 ft away how are they slamming into the ground? Does this make them prone? Do they only take damage with a lateral move if they end their teleportation against some sort of barrier?
Lunar Penumbra: Could this be used against any ranged attack? Like a bow or something? It sounds like it only works against spells. Why not bows?
Steel Serpent
Weakening Venom Prana: Can you stack this with a strike like Sting of the Asp or can only one maneuver be used in a turn? Or does the str damage not stack but overlap? Potentially doing 6 points of Str damage with level 2 maneuvers seems incredibly strong.
Hooded Killer’s Stance: why does he gain an “additional” 3d6 sneak attack dice? Is this a holdover from an earlier version or am I missing something? Or is that meant to say that a multiclass Stalker/Rogue would get additional dice?
Blend with the Night: I kind of dislike things that last for 1 round because there is always some disagreement it seems at some tables at to whether that means until the start of your next turn or the end of this turn.
Thrashing Dragon
Double weapons are among the preferred weapons for Thrashing Dragon but many abilities require two wielded weapons and don’t allow a dispensation for a double weapon. Is this intended?
“Signature Thrashing Dragon weapon” shows up a lot. What’s that?
Flick of the Wrist: Do I have to make two rapid attack rolls? Can’t I make them slowly if I want? I’m getting old; I can’t be bothered to make rapid rolls like this. =)
Fangs Strike Low: What does, “…in addition to weapon damage…” mean? I just roll the d8 of a long sword but don’t add str or feats or what have you? What’s the DC of the heal check?
Dragon Rush: Is this kick bludgeoning damage? Does it receive bonuses from an amulet of mighty fists?
Doom Talon: Says it’s a counter but it looks like a boost.
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I was not fond of the WOTC book. Why should I like this one better ?
What's in for me ?
What's in for the already quite damaged game balance ?
It doesn't necessarily have to be for you, and it's not my product, but some reason's we like it:
1) It introduces a way of interacting with the existing mechanics that doesn't currently exist, allowing for players to explore different feat trees and playstyles. Prior to playtesting the Warlord, I had literally never had a player use Combat Maneuvers in our group. Suddenly our Warlord's running around using Disarm and Dirty Trick every 3rd round or so to get his maneuvers back and other players start realizing there's some cool existing material that might actually be worth exploring.
2) Despite the huge number of options available in Pathfinder, some players who play on a weekly, bi-weekly, or even more common basis start feeling like they've seen what there is to see. Introducing classes and/or abilities that approach the system from an entirely new direction can be a breath of fresh air and challenge their existing understanding of what feats are/are not worth taking etc.
3) Some people just like the flavor. The disciplines are just plain cool sometimes.
4) Not everyone thinks the game is out of balance, and these classes are not being introduced into the same world as the Bo9S classes were. WotC knew that they were moving on to a new system and were trying out some new things. They weren't worried about making their own material obsolete. Paizo has since taken that material and given martial classes a MASSIVE upgrade. Maneuver-based classes are no longer in danger of eclipsing their non-initiator counterparts.
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Replacing damage with SKILL CHECKS?!Yeah, there's a few maneuvers where instead of adding bonus dice or what have you, you make a skill check and use that as your damage.
You have a AVATAR now?! Gah, too many changes at once.
Replacing damage with SKILL CHECKS?!Yeah, there's a few maneuvers where instead of adding bonus dice or what have you, you make a skill check and use that as your damage.
Which playtest document is that in?
Ok, so it's a 13th+ level ability...hm.
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Design Manager
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You have a AVATAR now?! Gah, too many changes at once.Replacing damage with SKILL CHECKS?!Yeah, there's a few maneuvers where instead of adding bonus dice or what have you, you make a skill check and use that as your damage.
I had been of the opinion that not having an avatar lent me a certain air of mystery, but then I started to notice that people with avatars seem to be taken more seriously, sooo..... There you have it.
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Hey Chris, I was thinking, why not just give the Stalker poison use as a class feature? Here's my reasoning behind this:
Now we have this Stance:
Poisoner's Stance
Steel Serpent (Stance)
Level: 1
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
One of the first lessons of Steel Serpent disciples is the knowledge of mundane poisons and how to use them with expertise. While in this stance, the disciple gains the poison use class feature (the disciple no longer risks accidentally poisoning himself when attempting to apply poison to a weapon) and gains a +1 DC/2 IL perfection bonus (maximum +10) to the saving throw DC's of any poison (mundane, sting or prana) he applies through the use of this stance.
This is a great stance however applying a poison to a weapon is Full round action. So it doesn't really lend itself much to being used in combat except for the first attack of the encounter. As soon as the poison on a weapon is expended the Stalker isn't going to have to time to reapply poison to his weapon(s) during combat. My suggestion is keep the second half of the stance as it is, I think its decent, except the +1 DC/IL Perfection bonus sounds a bit wonky I think the intent is clear enough. My suggestion is simply give the Stalker the Poison Use class feature and then change this stance so that it reads
"One of the first lessons of Steel Serpent disciples is the knowledge of mundane poisons and how to use them with expertise in combat . While in this stance the disciple can apply poisons as a move action. . ."
I think this would go a long way toward bringing up some of the synergy and coordination of the the later Steel Serpent strikes and doesn't limit a poisoner stalker to that stance. Right now that stance is almost like a stance tax as it stands will rarely get used in combat except for on the first round when a poison is expended. Increase the potency of the stance and I think it would see more play and use in combat in addition would help with the synergy of such abilities like:
Virulence
Steel Serpent (Strike)
Level: 6
Prerequisites: Two Steel Serpent Maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Melee attack or ranged attack
Target: One poison
Duration: Until used
Through intense focus, the disciple is capable of increasing the potency of venoms and poisons he uses by channeling his ki into it and twisting that energy. Use of this boost empowers one single mundane poison, sting, or prana with a +5 boost to the save DC of effect. This lasts until used, and the maneuver may not be recovered until it is expended. This is a supernatural ability.
Replacing damage with SKILL CHECKS?!Yeah, there's a few maneuvers where instead of adding bonus dice or what have you, you make a skill check and use that as your damage.
Are those for full attacks? Skills are so easy to boost.
Maneuvers are almost always standard actions. I don't think there's any option that allows you to replace an attack that's part of a Full Attack Routine with a maneuver use.
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Are those for full attacks? Skills are so easy to boost.Replacing damage with SKILL CHECKS?!Yeah, there's a few maneuvers where instead of adding bonus dice or what have you, you make a skill check and use that as your damage.
Some of them are replacing Full Attacks. Hell Cat's Frenzy is (I believe, I'm not looking at the document right now) make an attack against every opponent in range, then instead of rolling damage, make a Survival check and use that as your damage. Or something to that basic effect. They're all tied into maneuvers that are their own special actions, so I don't think there are any where that "replace weapon damage with skill check" mechanic would be riding on top of anything else. I actually felt like it was a lower damaging mechanic at the levels it became available, until the question of bonus dice from weapon special abilities and critical multipliers was brought up and I had to take a second look at it.
I think bonus damage dice from special abilities wouldn't come into play since it specifies that you're making the check instead of rolling damage, but if you're multiplying a big static number like that on a crit, it could be pretty gnarly.
Hell cats frenzy specified that the action is a standard but that it becomes a full attack action. No clue how that works, but you use twice your survival check as your damage.
Maneuver damage is never multiplied on a critical hit, so those numbers won't explode as much as you think. Skills can be pretty easily boosted, but they can only explode so high unless tons of cheese is used in my experience. Power Attack, weapon specials, etc, they wouldn't apply in maneuvers that use Skill checks for damage in place of normal damage. It's just the straight skill check.
While we're on the subject, how do people feel about those maneuvers?
-Chris
Replace X with a skill Y check abilities soon become auto success abilities. Skills scale a lot faster than anything else in the game. So I dislike them on principle.
But damage isn't a success roll. It's seeing how well you succeeded. I still need to think on that.
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Maneuver damage is never multiplied on a critical hit, so those numbers won't explode as much as you think. Skills can be pretty easily boosted, but they can only explode so high unless tons of cheese is used in my experience. Power Attack, weapon specials, etc, they wouldn't apply in maneuvers that use Skill checks for damage in place of normal damage. It's just the straight skill check.
While we're on the subject, how do people feel about those maneuvers?
-Chris
I like them. They're cool, they give you some combat payoff on your skill investment, and your clarification that they aren't affected by feats, bonus dice, etc. closes most of the confusing areas.
I like them. They're cool, they give you some combat payoff on your skill investment, and your clarification that they aren't affected by feats, bonus dice, etc. closes most of the confusing areas.Maneuver damage is never multiplied on a critical hit, so those numbers won't explode as much as you think. Skills can be pretty easily boosted, but they can only explode so high unless tons of cheese is used in my experience. Power Attack, weapon specials, etc, they wouldn't apply in maneuvers that use Skill checks for damage in place of normal damage. It's just the straight skill check.
While we're on the subject, how do people feel about those maneuvers?
-Chris
I likely need to clarify this in the actual maneuvers, so I will do so there, but the only thing I'm going to let augment them I think is boosts (basic dice adders). Do people think things like flaming or shocking burst or thundering should apply to these?
-Chris
Depends on what the in-game rationalization is for being able to use the results of an arbitrary skill check as damage is :)
Are there plans for additional designer being added to this project? It seems quite large for a single guy.
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Depends on what the in-game rationalization is for being able to use the results of an arbitrary skill check as damage is :)
Are there plans for additional designer being added to this project? It seems quite large for a single guy.
The rationalization is, is for those particular maneuvers the character is relying solely on his survival instincts alone as he's lashing out viciously at his surrounding foes. It's not altogether different than the ToB's Diamond Mind strikes of the (insert gemstone here) Nightmare Blade lines, just focusing on some slightly different mechanics.
As far as other designers, I have Jeremy and Andreas to rely on if it gets a bit overwhelming. Andreas has been a rock and lighthouse for me when I need to step away and gather my thoughts and get re-focused. I haven't attempted to bring anyone else on nor has anyone been discussed on that matter. It is a big project, but with good support from DSP's owners and people here and IRL here, I'm managing pretty well (I think so at least!)
-Chris
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I likely need to clarify this in the actual maneuvers, so I will do so there, but the only thing I'm going to let augment them I think is boosts (basic dice adders). Do people think things like flaming or shocking burst or thundering should apply to these?
-Chris
It'd be cool to have some payoff for your magical weapons, I think it is a bit of a muddled area though. You've got an attack, that's a skill, that works like an AoE....
I'd be inclined to say either allow things like Flaming etc. to stack with the attacks, or change the abilities to be SU drawing upon the character's inner reserves of power and bypass the whole idea that his weapon is where the damage is actually coming from all together.
I don't like the thought of stacking the bonus damage dice from weapon abilities on there, I think it's messy and muddies things a bit, but I think it's hard to justify not allowing them without changing the fluff and clarifying the mechanics of the affected maneuvers a bit.
Just my thoughts.
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Here's the thing with the skill checks for damage. It's basically just a d20 roll plaus some other modifier which isn't typically used for damage.
Why not use all your normal damage adders like enchants and stength and feats and change the normal die or dice of the weapon to a d20?
Later maneuvers could use 3 d10 or two d20. Huge payoff if you roll high, less so if you roll low but at least you know what you do and don't add to the damage.
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Considering the skill modifier will already be high(otherwise, the player would pick another maneuver) and you are rolling a d20, I do not feel you should be able to add str and/or dex with the right feat/class feature or whatever. I am ok with weapon properties like flaming added, same for stuff like weapon specialization. Remember some people will multiclass. Make sure to mention what happens if you crit with all those various critical feats.
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Doing some playtesting now. How does Flick of the Wrist work? Do you need to hit with both to disarm or just once? Do you still deal damage?
Judging from sweeping tail, my guess is only one needs to be successful and it doesn't deal damage.
Edit: Also, with Fading Strike can you hit and then teleport or teleport and then attack as needed or do you have to teleport and then attack? I'm doing the former.
Doing some playtesting now. How does Flick of the Wrist work? Do you need to hit with both to disarm or just once? Do you still deal damage?
Judging from sweeping tail, my guess is only one needs to be successful and it doesn't deal damage.
Edit: Also, with Fading Strike can you hit and then teleport or teleport and then attack as needed or do you have to teleport and then attack? I'm doing the former.
Damage as normal, the text in the long desc is wrong as well, I reduced the benefit to +2 as you're making two attacks at full BAB (one for each wielded weapon, max of 2), inflict damage as normal and get the disarm in.
Sweeping Tail does not do damage, but perhaps it should add a d6 or two of damage...
As written, you must teleport 1st then attack, but I like it both ways and am changing it as such. You can attack then teleport or teleport then attack. Whichever works.
-Chris
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Thanks, Chris. You are a hero.
Sweeping Tail should probably do a d6 of damage to put it on par with Flick of the Wrist since it apparently does damage.
Also, since Flick of the Wrist does two attacks and has the disarm rider, you might consider making it a full round action. Also just to clarify, you need to hit with both to do the disarm, right?
Thanks, Chris. You are a hero.
Sweeping Tail should probably do a d6 of damage to put it on par with Flick of the Wrist since it apparently does damage.
Also, since Flick of the Wrist does two attacks and has the disarm rider, you might consider making it a full round action. Also just to clarify, you need to hit with both to do the disarm, right?
Not a problem!
I was thinking a 1d6 + primary initiator attribute modifier for Sweeping Tail, and yeah, you're probably right with Flick of the Wrist as a full round. Yes, you need to hit with both attacks to get the freebie disarm.
-Chris
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OK, so the first YuenglingDragon Arena of Doom has finished. The Arena style fights I did during UM and UC playtesting were fun and, I hope, informative. I've refined that process a bit and here's what I did.
A level 5 Stalker and a level 5 Magus each have 4 fights to represent a fairly normal adventuring day. Between fights they have access to a cleric that can do some level appropriate healing plus any other items or potions that they want to use. Both contestants used the same stats with only Int and Wis being swapped and only one dump stat allowed and only to 8 (Cha in both cases). They have level appropriate wealth. Neither were heavily optimized but system mastery with a heavy dose of fun was shown.
The Magus was an Aldori dueling sword user because I like the extra defense and initiative it provides and being able to power attack two handed on a spell strike is swanky down the line, though not quite at this level. The Stalker used two kukri and had a mix of Crescent Moon and Thrashing Dragon maneuvers. Both had a highly respectable AC of 23 in the end. The Magus had slightly better overall saves but the Stalker will soon be able to use a ki point to shore up his fort or will as needed.
The two contestants would face:
CR3: 1 randomized monster (Gutslug)
CR4: d6 randomized NPC's (2 Veteran Buccaneer's) [If I ever write taht b-word again it will be too soon]
CR4: d6 randomized monsters (2 Kijimuna)
CR5: 1 randomized NPC (Forest Guardian)
The Magus pretty much crushed everything in his path until he came to the Forest Guardian. This loss was more due to bad luck than anything else. The Guardian just kept rolling high on his attacks and getting past two mirror images. He had such tremendous burst damage from his piles of shocking grasps that he could quickly end fights without using too many resources, especially since Pearls of Power are so damn cheap.
The Stalker did pretty well, too. The [shudder, here's that word again] buccaneers were a pain because the Stalker doesn't quite have the level of burst damage that a Magus can put up. I screwed up and accidentally used the rules for Improved Uncanny Dodge here but the Stalker was so bloody hard to hit I don't think it mattered much. Highlight of the fight was the Blur effect from Formless Dance stopping what would have been a really nasty crit. The Kijimuna were a joke to both contestants and probably don't deserve their CR.
I think the last fight against the Forest Guardian was where the Stalker really got to shine. He was so flexible I realized I could basically keep the Guardian from every getting a full attack by staggering, tripping, disarming, and kiting with Fading Strike. It didn't hurt that I got a couple crits and was able to Deadly Strike the bejeesus out of him.
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Stalker things that are cool:
Flexible and fun maneuvers.
Fairly reliable damage.
Good defensive buffs.
Stalker things that bug me:
Deadly strike is cool but I feel like it also pigeonholes the class. You either have to use the crap out of ki points or use one of the weapons with big crit ranges. I think we'll see mostly stalkers using 18-20 weapons. I wouldn't mind seeing two options for Deadly Strike chose when the ability is gained like Nature's Bond or other class abilities. One version that activates on crits and one that activates in some other scenario so that there is room for other builds than just the crit monkey.
Edit: Chris, if the summary is insufficient I took notes on everything so if you want them for specifics or you want the build I used you can PM me your email address.
Will do, thank you YuenglingDragon!
-Chris
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So, I thought about what I was saying about the Stalker getting pigeonholed into being a crit monkey. What if Deadly Strike becomes a class feature with two options. Here's what I'm thinking:
Deadly Strike:
At 1st level choose between the following options:
Deadly Critical: This works just like Deadly Strike works now
Deadly Ambush: The stalker may add his Deadly Strike dice to damage when he hits an opponent who is denied his dex bonus such as being flatfooted.
Change Ambush Training to Deadly Arts or something and it gives those who chose Deadly Critical add dice against those denied dex and those that chose Deadly Ambush to add the dice to crits (but maybe not for a number of rounds like Deadly Strike normally would.
Maybe also make Critical Training have the Deadly Critical class feature as a prerequisite. The Stalker Art Deadly Arts does not count to meet this prerequisite.
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Hey Chris,
So, we're not very large or well known, but we've been chatting about your classes and what-not at our site somnambulant-gamer.com.
Just thought I'd drop you a link if you're interested.
On a different note, you've been quietly listening to the feedback on what people think of the Stalker's critical hit focused nature, but we haven't heard a lot from you on what your thoughts were, both when you implemente the concept, and as you've seen and heard about it in action. So what was your goal when you came up with the design, and what do you think about how it's being received so far?
So, I thought about what I was saying about the Stalker getting pigeonholed into being a crit monkey. What if Deadly Strike becomes a class feature with two options. Here's what I'm thinking:
Deadly Strike:
At 1st level choose between the following options:
Deadly Critical: This works just like Deadly Strike works now
Deadly Ambush: The stalker may add his Deadly Strike dice to damage when he hits an opponent who is denied his dex bonus such as being flatfooted.Change Ambush Training to Deadly Arts or something and it gives those who chose Deadly Critical add dice against those denied dex and those that chose Deadly Ambush to add the dice to crits (but maybe not for a number of rounds like Deadly Strike normally would.
Maybe also make Critical Training have the Deadly Critical class feature as a prerequisite. The Stalker Art Deadly Arts does not count to meet this prerequisite.
Heh, I totally tried to do it that way, but it didn't get past the drawing board. The Stalker will be the real true crit monkey of all the classes, having a class feature that is dependent on it. You can always take Deadly Ambush or Extra Ki to get the Deadly Strikes going a little faster as well.
I like the idea, I came up with it too, but no, I think Deadly Strikes is staying the way it is until I'm told differently. Besides, I think it makes for an interesting mechanic, no one else does that and it gives a Magus a run for it is money to boot!
Hey Chris,
So, we're not very large or well known, but we've been chatting about your classes and what-not at our site somnambulant-gamer.com.
Just thought I'd drop you a link if you're interested.On a different note, you've been quietly listening to the feedback on what people think of the Stalker's critical hit focused nature, but we haven't heard a lot from you on what your thoughts were, both when you implement the concept, and as you've seen and heard about it in action. So what was your goal when you came up with the design, and what do you think about how it's being received so far?
Hey thank you so much for blogging about the Path of War! That's awesome! I'll definitely add your blog to my follow list. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help you with it. :)
As for your second point, originally the stalker was written to have a lot more rogue to it than it currently does. After taking it to the brass and giving it a total make over a few times to get something close to what we wanted, the stalker as you know it is what you have here. I think it will perform well, especially with the ki activation of its deadly strikes, relatively easy recharge mechanics, and punishing maneuver combos.
Deadly Strike specifically was going to be Sneak Attack, but that's boring and poaching, and I did not want to make variant classes; I wanted to make fresh new ones. Some after working with Andreas Rönnqvist primarily and bouncing ideas off of each other, we came up with this concept of a solid critical emphasis character that no other class really has. The chassis of the class is built primarily on its Combat Insight and Deadly Strikes (augmented by Stalker Arts... speaking of, I should probably come up with more of those for augmenting Deadly Strike) and that makes it stand out enough on its own.
Personally, I think it because it's a really drastically different mechanic than what people are used to, it's kind of spooking some folks and others would like to see it activate more often. Something so strange and unreliable doesn't usually end up in published works, but I think that's what makes it stand out. It's like the Gambit system in that regard; strange and new. Who knows if it will make it to the final, in the end, I don't think I have that decision, but I've gotten nothing to tell me different yet! Hope that answers your question :)
-Chris
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I really, really dislike the Stalker's critical hit focused style, and it really doesn't differentiate them from the Rogue/Ninja as much as you think. I can tell that you really like your design and are thus reticent to change it, but it's something that really turns me off the Stalker as it stands.
High critical hit weapons are by far the strongest weapons in Pathfinder because of the number of critical riders (feats, etc). They are especially so for two-weapon fighters because that just doubles your chances to critically hit. Rogues and Ninjas tend to be two-weapon fighters as well (double the chance to stack sneak attack - and double the chance to crit). All these classes focus on critical hits already. Your Dex to damage feat only exacerbates this because then a two-weapon fighter can just maximise Dex for very little penalty.
I can't see people making Stalkers that use weapons with less than a 19-20 crit. I would honestly be surprised to see less than 75% of all Stalkers using dual kukris or wakizashi or two-handed wielding a scimitar or falchion or something. And that bores me.
I really, really dislike the Stalker's critical hit focused style, and it really doesn't differentiate them from the Rogue/Ninja as much as you think. I can tell that you really like your design and are thus reticent to change it, but it's something that really turns me off the Stalker as it stands.
High critical hit weapons are by far the strongest weapons in Pathfinder because of the number of critical riders (feats, etc). They are especially so for two-weapon fighters because that just doubles your chances to critically hit. Rogues and Ninjas tend to be two-weapon fighters as well (double the chance to stack sneak attack - and double the chance to crit). All these classes focus on critical hits already. Your Dex to damage feat only exacerbates this because then a two-weapon fighter can just maximise Dex for very little penalty.
I can't see people making Stalkers that use weapons with less than a 19-20 crit. I would honestly be surprised to see less than 75% of all Stalkers using dual kukris or wakizashi or two-handed wielding a scimitar or falchion or something. And that bores me.
High critical thresholds have always been the go to feature of weapons though. It really doesn't matter what damage die you place in front of the critical threshold. You won't change something so fundamental to the game by preventing class features that have synergistic qualities with critical threats.
There is a disincentive for every player to use low crit weapons. The class feature firmly entrenches something that was already deeply entrenched. Since no other classes offer class incentives to build for criticals, other than the huge advantage they already have, I feel some ambivalence.
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I'd love to see a class that focused on making the higher-crit multiplier weapons more useful myself. I've been burned out on swords and sword-type weapons for years and almost always have my characters that use melee weapons toting around axes and hammers if I can, despite their mechanical disadvantage. I'd like to see more assistance in making those types of weapons more useful.
Unfortunately I can't think of a way to do it that doesn't make the already-high-crit-range weapons even better anyway.
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I'll say one last thing on the critical hit bit and then leave it alone for now.
It makes it hard for someone like me who is very story focused to play this class. I'm GM'ing Reign of Winter right now and one of my players is a witch. I told him that he's going to have a lot of save or die and some save or suck stuff that is going to be so harsh they might as well have died. I then told him to be careful how he uses them because killing a big bad with one spell on the first round of combat is kind of unsatisfactory for the party. It makes the fight lack a certain epic quality. So he'll use some other stuff and work his way up to the killer spells. Allow the fight to develop.
I can do that same thing with maneuvers but I can't with crits. It makes it hard to make a story out of a fight.
Hopefully that all makes sense. I'm on mobile and I haven't even finished my morning coffee.