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Ideally, the ITS should replace the items purchased/sold section at the bottom of chronicles, and allow for tracking of consumables on the ITS instead of on individual character sheets. That's it. If it just replaces other paperwork, puts everything all in one place that's easy to use, and doesn't create redundant paperwork, then it's a good thing. I'm still waiting to see for sure whether that's the case.My problem is this is only exacerbating an issue that may seem small and simple to the Paizo employees who run Society, but the GMs are goin g to see a real problem. Ink is not exactly cheap, and with the rate I use it for projects and other paperwork for the Marines, it's not something I can be replacing every week (that's an exaggeration, but it's common for me to replace it). Seven-ish pages may not seem like much, but consider also that we are printing out the physical copy of the scenario/module as well, as well as seven-ish copies of the Chronicle sheets as well.
I think that, like a character sheet, the ITS is something that I'll be expecting my players to bring with them to game days.
I might have a handful of copies for people that haven't heard the news in the first few weeks, but after that, it's not the GM's responsibility to provide the player with the correct documentation. Especially since it's available as a free download online.
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There will be a form fillable sheet posted at some point.
The original post was lost in the merging of some threads, I think. But here's the quote.
Thanks for the info! That said I would still prefer the ability to make our own custom sheets and have these treated just as an extension of the Character sheet. It would be much easier to be able to keep track in our own format that has the same info, I am worried that the form fillable will not be able to save the info inputted, many times that requires Adobe Pro, though I think there are work around for that.
But being able to request this ability from Lone Wolf and adding it to Hero Labs would be much easier, though if they did add the capability it might take some time.
I don't see the need in requiring it be the one and only official document since the document does not have your watermark on it and GM initials are not required on the document.
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And that's a good goal. I applaud Paizo's interest in responding to player feedback. One way to address it would be to drop inventory-tracking entirely, freeing up lots of room on the chronicle sheet and skip the addition of a new form to fill out.
I guess I'm curious what problem is being solved with GM review and approval for equipment purchases?
The requirement for tracking resources will never go away... one can never have the endless bag of bullets.
However, there wasn't a lot of room with the 5 mini lines to accurately track and have it be legible... this is just a matter of making things (hopefully) a little easier I would assume.
It's all a matter of what the final implementation of it ends up to be.
True, but I've always kept track of that on character sheets before. Either with much crossing out and replacing or in more modern times with printouts or digital versions.
I have to track resources. The question is does that all have to be documented for the GM in some elaborate fashion.And I'm not convinced the ITS really helps with the problem of space on the Chronicle, since everything still needs to entered on the Chronicle itself. The change in layout might help, but I don't see how the ITS helps the space issue.
I view it as an easy 1 sheet balance system so that I as the GM don't have to flip through all the chronicles and try to see when you bought something. Personally I've used a version of a checking account balance book in the past and while I haven't been faithful with it it was an easy way to see when I purchased something.
I've also come across cases with my own characters as I've been trying to audit them where I've double purchased items. It can be a simple checks and balance sheet.
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There will be a form fillable sheet posted at some point.
The original post was lost in the merging of some threads, I think. But here's the quote.
Thanks for the info! That said I would still prefer the ability to make our own custom sheets and have these treated just as an extension of the Character sheet. It would be much easier to be able to keep track in our own format that has the same info, I am worried that the form fillable will not be able to save the info inputted, many times that requires Adobe Pro, though I think there are work around for that.
But being able to request this ability from Lone Wolf and adding it to Hero Labs would be much easier, though if they did add the capability it might take some time.
I don't see the need in requiring it be the one and only official document since the document does not have your watermark on it and GM initials are not required on the document.
Some kind of non-pdf more easily editable version would be nice. Official or unofficial. Something where I can easily rearrange items to keep the stuff I still have in one spot, not lost among the used up scrolls and holy water vials.
I figure I'll have one for consumables and one for static purchases (such as rings and gear). It's all a matter of how you look at it I suppose.
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Ideally, the ITS should replace the items purchased/sold section at the bottom of chronicles, and allow for tracking of consumables on the ITS instead of on individual character sheets. That's it. If it just replaces other paperwork, puts everything all in one place that's easy to use, and doesn't create redundant paperwork, then it's a good thing. I'm still waiting to see for sure whether that's the case.My problem is this is only exacerbating an issue that may seem small and simple to the Paizo employees who run Society, but the GMs are goin g to see a real problem. Ink is not exactly cheap, and with the rate I use it for projects and other paperwork for the Marines, it's not something I can be replacing every week (that's an exaggeration, but it's common for me to replace it). Seven-ish pages may not seem like much, but consider also that we are printing out the physical copy of the scenario/module as well, as well as seven-ish copies of the Chronicle sheets as well.You shouldn't have to print out the ITS for anything other than your characters. Unless you're the coordinator for your area, more than likely the coordinator will have a couple of extra (or should) with them if a player doesn't have any.
I'm confused as to what exactly you're saying.
Even with that being the case, if people weren't documenting this stuff when it was handed to them on Chronicle Sheets, what makes you think the other players are going to print this stuff out themselves and keep track of it?
Hell, one of the things I have on my character sheets (I have custom sheets on Google Docs) is gear and what-not. It tells me what I buy, weight, etc. It takes into account consumables. That's of my own accord, because I'm a stickler like that. Only one other player at my table was like that, but he's not playing with us anymore.
As someone said, this is the wrong way to look at it; offering incentives to players who make use of the sheets and punishments ot those who don't won't make the problem better. It's going to push people away, because it's more paperwork; only this time, the onus is on the players themselves and really ,players don't want to do paperwork.
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Lets collect all thoughts into one thread.
- There is a 25 GP threshold involved, where all items above that need to be listed in the ITS. Any item that is 1 cp to 24 GP does not need to be listed.
- No need for a GM to initial the Inventory Tracking Sheet because the GM should have initialed each purchase on the Chronicle sheet. (Source here)
- You can use multiple tracking sheets, and have each one represent a different set of items (Mundane items, alchemical items, ammunition) if you'd like. (Source here)
Thank you
If we duplicate the form format exactly can we use word or excel to create these sheets?
I really like this idea. Would make auto calculating via excel formula easier.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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So let me see if I follow this.
How I'm reading:
Player marks on ITS "20 vials of alchemest fire."
Player marks on Chronicle sheet "20 vials of Alchemist fire, 400 GP"
GM initials Chronicle.
How Ithought it worked.
Player marks on ITS "20 vials of Alchemist fire."
Player marks on Chronicle sheet "purchaes = 400 GP."
GM initials Chronicle.
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Ideally, the ITS should replace the items purchased/sold section at the bottom of chronicles, and allow for tracking of consumables on the ITS instead of on individual character sheets. That's it. If it just replaces other paperwork, puts everything all in one place that's easy to use, and doesn't create redundant paperwork, then it's a good thing. I'm still waiting to see for sure whether that's the case.My problem is this is only exacerbating an issue that may seem small and simple to the Paizo employees who run Society, but the GMs are goin g to see a real problem. Ink is not exactly cheap, and with the rate I use it for projects and other paperwork for the Marines, it's not something I can be replacing every week (that's an exaggeration, but it's common for me to replace it). Seven-ish pages may not seem like much, but consider also that we are printing out the physical copy of the scenario/module as well, as well as seven-ish copies of the Chronicle sheets as well.You shouldn't have to print out the ITS for anything other than your characters. Unless you're the coordinator for your area, more than likely the coordinator will have a couple of extra (or should) with them if a player doesn't have any.
I'm confused as to what exactly you're saying.
Even with that being the case, if people weren't documenting this stuff when it was handed to them on Chronicle Sheets, what makes you think the other players are going to print this stuff out themselves and keep track of it?
Hell, one of the things I have on my character sheets (I have custom sheets on Google Docs) is gear and what-not. It tells me what I buy, weight, etc. It takes into account consumables. That's of my own accord, because I'm a stickler like that. Only one other player at my table was like that, but he's not playing with us anymore.
As someone said, this is the wrong way to look at it; offering incentives to players...
Ok ... so to me it sounds like you just want to be grumpy about this change...
Yes, it's more paperwork for the player... but they are supposed to be responsible for tracking their resources. If they haven't and they aren't then I'm sure they are going to find a way to game the system.
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My problem is this is only exacerbating an issue that may seem small and simple to the Paizo employees who run Society, but the GMs are going to see a real problem. Ink is not exactly cheap, and with the rate I use it for projects and other paperwork for the Marines, it's not something I can be replacing every week (that's an exaggeration, but it's common for me to replace it). Seven-ish pages may not seem like much, but consider also that we are printing out the physical copy of the scenario/module as well, as well as seven-ish copies of the Chronicle sheets as well.
You do realize that BOTH of the people running Pathfinder Society are also 5-star GMs and have run over 400 games between them? I think they're well aware of the costs to GM in PFS.
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This is how I understand it to be and will be doing it until corrected otherwise.How Ithought it worked.
Player marks on ITS "20 vials of Alchemist fire."
Player marks on Chronicle sheet "purchaes = 400 GP."
GM initials Chronicle.
If this is how it works then it is not really an increase of paperwork
Assuming there is not a requirement (which from a campaign staffer on another thread said there would be no requirement - but things change) to bring sheets where all items on it are expended.
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Yes, it's more paperwork for the player... but they are supposed to be responsible for tracking their resources. If they haven't and they aren't then I'm sure they are going to find a way to game the system.It's not a matter of gaming the system. It's a matter of a large section of PFS gamers, both players and GMs, already not documenting all this by procedure. Not because they're trying to cheat. Because they're lazy. Because the game ran long. Because they never got taught to do it in the first place. Because they did do it and no one else bothered so they stopped.
Now you're going to give them more paperwork and expect them to take care of what they weren't doing when it was simpler. Good luck with that.Just saying "It's in the procedure doc and it's your responsibility to have been doing it all along" doesn't work in a job where you can get fired. It's not going to work in a hobby.
*sigh* I'm not going to argue with you. People are either going to like it or not... but in the end if people are going to play the game then they need to do it.
From other posts, there is an interpretation that this will not be extra paperwork. Have you read those? Or are you so caught up in your own personal argument that you're dismissing what others are saying?
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I'm pretty sure that's not how it works.
Everything I've seen lately says that items still need to be listed on a Chronicle, where they get signed off on. The ITS is just a pointer to that Chronicle.
In other words, how Matthew had it in his "How I'm reading" section.
thejeff, correct me if I'm wrong, but that doesn't change what's supposed to be written on the Chronicle sheet at all; it doesn't address the problem of there being a tiny area for cramped writing.
So, if we still have to write:
"bought +1 merciful bow, STRENGTH 14 -- 8600
bought 50 +1 ghost touch arrows -- 8303
replaced 2 x cure light wounds potions -- 2 x 50
bought wand of magic weapon -- 2 PP
bought wand of magic missiles (CL 5, 20 charges) -- 1500"
as well as:
"bribes for Diplomacy - 20, 50
bought noble outfit and jewelry - 1 PP"
on the Chronicle sheet, for the GM to sign off on, it's just as problematic. Worse, if there's less space on the Season 5 Chronicle.
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And once again, here's the link to Mike Brock saying that the "items sold" and "items purchased" sections of chronicles were removed in season 5. Nobody's going to be recording their purchases on the chronicles, if the chronicles don't have a place to do so. They should use the ITS instead.
And I agree with the many complaints that most people right now aren't checking with their GM about their purchases, and trying to push that as standard procedure is a major change that I think might be doomed to failure.
However, people should already be recording their purchases. Right now, they do it on the chronicles. In the future, they'll do it on the ITS instead. I realize some people don't actually do it, but enough people actually do that it's not as big a stretch to suddenly start enforcing it.
I’m confused again. I had thought we still had to write the items we are buying on the chronicle sheets, as that is where you are actually having them signed off on by the GM?
I thought the ITS was just a sheet that condensed and tracked the chronicle sheets making it easier for the GM if they decide the need for an audit.
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I’m confused again. I had thought we still had to write the items we are buying on the chronicle sheets, as that is where you are actually having them signed off on by the GM?
I thought the ITS was just a sheet that condensed and tracked the chronicle sheets making it easier for the GM if they decide the need for an audit.
I understand it the same way Kyle B posted above:
Player marks on ITS "20 vials of Alchemist fire."
Player marks on Chronicle sheet "purchaes = 400 GP."
GM initials Chronicle.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Personally, I think that better practices would be to initial the ITS and just mark total gold spent on the chronicle. I doubt there would be a lot of fuss over that.
(Note that I personally don't feel that initialling anywhere is a great idea, since it's extra paperwork for little benefit.)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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And once again, here's the link to Mike Brock saying that the "items sold" and "items purchased" sections of chronicles were removed in season 5. Nobody's going to be recording their purchases on the chronicles, if the chronicles don't have a place to do so. They should use the ITS instead.
And I agree with the many complaints that most people right now aren't checking with their GM about their purchases, and trying to push that as standard procedure is a major change that I think might be doomed to failure.
However, people should already be recording their purchases. Right now, they do it on the chronicles. In the future, they'll do it on the ITS instead. I realize some people don't actually do it, but enough people actually do that it's not as big a stretch to suddenly start enforcing it.
Fromper,
My confusion comes from This post (ironic that it is above one of yours) where the reply to the question of "Why do we write them on both?" explains why, without saying we no longer write it on the chronicle sheet. That's what is causing my confusion. I'm just looking for some relief.
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Yeah, at this point, I'm waiting to see what it actually looks like. Which doesn't help me in knowing what to tell my players when I GM at GenCon. Kinda makes me wish I could make it to the PFS volunteer meeting the day before GenCon, but I'll be busy at my day job, so I can't arrive in Indy a day early just for that.
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First, the GM does not need to initial every purchase. That is what the signature on the bottom of the chronicle is for. The only purchases that need to be initialed are those explicitly mentioned in the Guide, such as scribing scrolls into a spellbook.
This is directly at odds with what Mike Brock wrote in the very first post of this thread:
No need for a GM to initial the Inventory Tracking Sheet because the GM should have initialed each purchase on the Chronicle sheet.
I read "the GM should have initialed each purchase on the Chronicle sheet" as saying that the GM initials every purchase on the chronicle sheet, in direct opposition to what you're saying in an attempt to clarify.
Next, the entire chronicle, including the gold spent and final GP amount should be filled out before the player walks away from the table. [I understand this doesn't happen at many tables today.]
Your parenthetical comment is the key point here.
People aren't doing this right now.
Why does anybody think it's going to start happening?
Supposedly allowing the review of purchases to be moved to the start of the game helps solve this. GM's aren't looking over chronicle sheets and character sheets before the game right now. Why does anybody think it's going to start happening?
The system is punishing the compliant by giving them more paperwork-- intialing of every purchase, having to track the purchase in two places (chronicle sheets and ITS). If everybody (or even most people) were compliant, that would probably be OK, it's not that onerous. The problem is that most people are not compliant, so the only people who suffer are the people who try to be compliant, both doing more work and now having greater things at odds with what everybody does.
The system needs to reflect reality. Right now it does not, and the changes are only pushing it farther from that.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Personally, I'm not a big fan of the 25 gp minimum to write stuff in. There are too many things that should be tracked that cost less than that. I'd have made the minimum somewhere in the 1-10 gp range instead, to avoid the piddly little cp and sp items, while still tracking actual gold spent.
I agree. For now, I'm just listing everything. Even if only bigger stuff is required, there's no reason not to list the rest (well, a sore hand from too much writing)
I might re-do the list with the cheap stuff moved to its own page though.
One nice thing about all this for me: It provoked an in-depth audit of each of my characters. Catching some minor errors before I take them to Gencon.
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Personally, I like the notion of 25gp for mundane with the exception of alchemical items (which should always be listed IMO). The thought being that alchemical items get used pretty frequently, whereas other mundane items in the 10-25gp range don't get expended quite as much.
That said, if you are buying a bunch of inexpensive, mundane items, I think they should just get a group, single line listing: "various mundane gear: 30gp" or some such.
I’m confused again. I had thought we still had to write the items we are buying on the chronicle sheets, as that is where you are actually having them signed off on by the GM?
I thought the ITS was just a sheet that condensed and tracked the chronicle sheets making it easier for the GM if they decide the need for an audit.
I understand it the same way Kyle B posted above:
Player marks on ITS "20 vials of Alchemist fire."
Player marks on Chronicle sheet "purchaes = 400 GP."
GM initials Chronicle.
I don't believe that's how it works.
After getting a chance to look at the example Season 5 chronicle sheet, this is what is says for the "Notes" section (page 34 in PFSOGP):
Have the player note all items purchased or sold,
including spellcasting services, in the notes section
To me, it sounds like it does want you to actually list the items bought/sold, not just say "purchases" and give a money amount.
Although, reading on, there is another portion that is a big confusing:
If the PC purchased the casting
of a spell to clear the condition, you need to make sure the
player recorded that information in the Items Bought/
Conditions Cleared box at the bottom of the Chronicle
sheet.
The thing is, there is no Items Bought/Conditions Cleared box, at least for Season 5. And if that is an example for a season 5 chronicle sheet, they should not try mix in the Items Bought/conditions cleared sections from prior seasons.
So I think they should just change that to the "Notes" box as well.
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*sigh* I'm not going to argue with you. People are either going to like it or not... but in the end if people are going to play the game then they need to do it.
That is actually my concern. That some set of people will decide that the hassle has gotten too large for the fun and they'll start to drift away. Or that a larger set of people decide that the hassle of GMing has just become too large and they'll stop volunteering.
Right now up here we do things the way that seems to be incredibly common. No (or very, very few) audits. Chronicle sheets are handed back signed. No overview of purchases whatsoever.
Actually following the existing guide is more work than that. Actually using the new guide is even more work than following the existing guide.
It is more work for the player. It is even more work for the GM.
We can argue about how much more work. But it absolutely IS more work.
I'm a store coordinator at a store with a very tight schedule. Doing this extra work will eat into the time for gaming. Again, we can argue how much time will be lost but some time WILL be lost.
These are both bad things. My major concern is that this will make GMing less fun. And will require still MORE knowledge of the GM than they currently have as now GMs are expected to understand all the arcane purchasing rules. Which means that one of my hardest jobs (finding GMs) just got harder. It ESPECIALLY makes it harder for me to convince somebody that GMing isn't all that hard, that it doesn't take all that much rules knowledge, etc.
Don't get me wrong. I like the idea of the tracking sheet. And encouraging PLAYERS to use it. I just want GMs totally out of the loop except on those rare cases where a character gets audited.
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I still really only have one problem with this whole process, and it has nothing to do with recordkeeping or problems as a player with an extra few sheets of paper.
Instead, its as a GM, when the players are faced with getting across some pit, or up a wall, and one of them says, "I climb up the wall, then set some pitons with my hammer and tie off a rope so that my compatriots can climb up." Now, if we aren't tracking things under 25 gp, are we just to now assume that every PC always has all these nifty little mundane tools in their pockets? What about light sources or a crowbar?
I know that when I start a new PC, I spend about 75 gold on just stuff. Backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, fishhooks, signal whistle, mirror, some chalk, a waterskin, a plain whetstone, some silk rope, some twine, and so on. I mark all those items on my character sheet, and deduct the gold for them. On my sample ITS I filled out, I used up nearly half of the first page on just those little items, before I ever even got to scimitar and chain shirt.
Now, if I am GMing, and Moxie the gnome druid tells me she pulls a signal whistle out of her pocket to alert the rest of the party that there is a herd of demon cows approaching, I am going to be inclined, in general, to ask to see her inventory to make sure she actually has such a thing.
If Rouge the Red Rogue tells me he is pouring two flasks of oil down the stairs behind him to stymie pursuers, I want to know that first, he actually has two flasks of oil to pour, and second, he is marking those off somewhere and isn't going to have poured thirty-six flasks of oil down the stairs by the end of the scenario.
It's my opinion that if we are going to have this wonderful tracking tool (and I really do think it is going to be a great tool, once it is form-fillable), we need to use if for EVERYTHING a PC buys and might use. I know that I will do so for my PCs.
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Instead, its as a GM, when the players are faced with getting across some pit, or up a wall, and one of them says, "I climb up the wall, then set some pitons with my hammer and tie off a rope so that my compatriots can climb up." Now, if we aren't tracking things under 25 gp, are we just to now assume that every PC always has all these nifty little mundane tools in their pockets? What about light sources or a crowbar?
Look at their character sheet. As far as I'm concerned neither the chronicle sheets or tracking sheets trump the fact that all equipment has to be on the character sheet.
Even for larger purchases I can't imagine a player wanting to look at their chronicle sheets or tracking sheet. Its a LOT more convenient to list the silver dagger on their character sheet.
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Wouldn't quite a lot of this be resolved by not requiring the GM to initial anything on the ITS, and only fill in the chronicle sheet as normal? The only thing remaining on the chronicle sheet are the numbers in Gold Spent (section S on p35, I believe).
The whole idea with the ITS was to make tracking item expenditure easier, which it seemed to do before this idea came up.